ManaByte
Gold Member
You wanted lockdowns for a decade?
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You wanted lockdowns for a decade?
Singular7
Member
False dichotomy.
Why are we locking down the globe for a 99.7% survivable virus unless I get an experimental new type of drug?
Am I allowed to question anything big pharma and the unified global system is telling me? (obviously not, just putting the reality of what you are advocating on the table)
I grew up in a university town that was highly critical of big pharma. Now .... well, the irony is shocking. Very very weird stuff transpiring on the globe.
Everyone should get vaccinated, if they want to. I 100% support the vaccine.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Just taking a shot in the dark here, but in the US it might have had something to to do with the all the deaths and the overwhelmed hospitals.
Just a guess though.
FunkMiller
Member
Oh, do one. You’re defending the attitude that lay people know better than those trained and qualified to speak on the subject. Get out of here with your high minded bullcrap
If people didn’t walk around thinking they always know best, and that they should listen to those that actually do because of their experience and expertise, the world would be less divisive, and a far better place.
”Don’t be horrible to the science deniers. They have as much right to think what they want to” is some cucked snowflake bollocks I can’t believe someone would actually be limp enough to voice.
Singular7
Member
The death rate has barely budged in 6 months, and global deaths are down since this started. My wife works for a hospital and talks to nurses all day long, the hospital is more empty than usual since they again cancelled electives.
I'm open to analyzing any link you want to provide to bolster the claim though. Look at the suicide rate spike in teens ..... higher than covid deaths. At some point this fear narrative has to end.
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MisterFalcon
Member
Without having more detailed data it's hard to be sure but it's very weird that Delaware and DC are the only two states in the country to ever deviate from the pattern seen in all other state, that each age group has a higher rate as they get older. The numbers for Delaware say that 0-17 year olds got hospitalized at a rate more then 6 times the ones 18-29. While on the same day in all the states around it there were less 0-17 hospitalized then 18-29.
Either the data is wrong, Delaware children are extremely vulnerable to covid or there is a Delaware strain of covid that hits young children way harder then any other.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Very interesting data out of the tiny country of Iceland:
www.covid.is
Approximately 255,000 of their 364,000 population are fully vaccinated (126,000 of which are Pfizer, 20,000 of which are Moderna, 55,000 of which are Oxford AstraZeneca, and 53,000 of which are J&J, reportedly).
The breakdown of new domestic infections from their latest outbreak basically perfectly matches up with their breakdown of unvacc vs. vacc population.
It's also the biggest spike they have seen since the pandemic began.
It's a small country and thus there are very few hospitalizations (and so far zero deaths, thankfully) from this new wave, but it's still worth keeping an eye on.
Data
Latest updates on confirmed infections, the number of people in quarantine or isolation, and more.
www.covid.is
Approximately 255,000 of their 364,000 population are fully vaccinated (126,000 of which are Pfizer, 20,000 of which are Moderna, 55,000 of which are Oxford AstraZeneca, and 53,000 of which are J&J, reportedly).
The breakdown of new domestic infections from their latest outbreak basically perfectly matches up with their breakdown of unvacc vs. vacc population.
It's also the biggest spike they have seen since the pandemic began.
It's a small country and thus there are very few hospitalizations (and so far zero deaths, thankfully) from this new wave, but it's still worth keeping an eye on.
Singular7
Member
Very interesting data out of the tiny country of Iceland:
Data
Latest updates on confirmed infections, the number of people in quarantine or isolation, and more.
Approximately 255,000 of their 364,000 population are fully vaccinated (126,000 of which are Pfizer, 20,000 of which are Moderna, 55,000 of which are Oxford AstraZeneca, and 53,000 of which are J&J, reportedly).
The breakdown of new domestic infections from their latest outbreak basically perfectly matches up with their breakdown of unvacc vs. vacc population.
It's also the biggest spike they have seen since the pandemic began.
It's a small country and thus there are very few hospitalizations (and so far zero deaths, thankfully) from this new wave, but it's still worth keeping an eye on.
We need to stop talking about cases, especially since the CDC is changing the testing method to remove false influenza positives in December.
This is why Australia locked down with just a handful of deaths - focus on 'cases'.
Deaths are what matter in a pandemic, especially since this is the first pandemic where a symptom is not having symptoms as 'asymptomatic'
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ManaByte
Gold Member
It's not experimental, it's been used before. But people love using the "experimental" dog whistle to justify their anti-vax crusade.
Singular7
Member
I'm extremely pro-vaccine.
In 10 years when we get the standard data-set of a vaccine approval process, I'm sure I'll be impressed with how effective this new technology is.
It's really quite genius technology.
And as stated before: I believe a person should be able to use whatever chemicals they want, whether approved / studied for a long time, or not.
I applaud your vaccine status! Thank you for being selfless.
I've worked in the sciences for too long to just trust what the pharmaceutical industry says however, especially since my wife almost died from an FDA approved J&J birth control 10 years ago.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
French Consitutional Court gave a go ahead to ‘vaccination pass’ judging it in accordance with French constitution. Majority of things in the law were upheld with the exception of cutting the short-term job contract as a result of non-vaccination (in a position where it is obligatory). To sum up:
Vaccination Pass is either a full vaccine regimen, a negative test less than 48hrs, or a proof of having contracted Covid in the last few months. It is required for museums, cinemas, theatres, amusement parks, etc. On Monday it goes into effect for restaurants, bars, long distance trains, planes.
Health workers are obliged to get vaccinated, if not until a certain date in September they can go on paid leave, then unpaid, then in a discussion with employer and persistence not to get vaccinated they can be let go.
Vaccination Pass is either a full vaccine regimen, a negative test less than 48hrs, or a proof of having contracted Covid in the last few months. It is required for museums, cinemas, theatres, amusement parks, etc. On Monday it goes into effect for restaurants, bars, long distance trains, planes.
Health workers are obliged to get vaccinated, if not until a certain date in September they can go on paid leave, then unpaid, then in a discussion with employer and persistence not to get vaccinated they can be let go.
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Cracklox
Member
Here's some of the 'advice' we are receiving from the unelected health bureaucrats who are basically running their states in Australia right now.
You do realise both the cdc and the WHO have both stated that lockdowns should only be a last resort right...
Anyway, whilst Delta may be more infectious (thats debatable, at least in this country) it certainly has lower mortality. We've had a grand total of 17 deaths attributed to it this year, in a population of near 26 million. That's not a pandemic sorry. 910 deaths last year. Not a pandemic sorry. Vaccine or no vaccine
But still our politicians insist on causing all this collateral damage to small business, and peoples general well being and mental health, because they have doubled down on it so hard, they can't go back now.
And your last point sounds like something from April 2020
This warms the heart tbh. More and more people are over this bullshit. They organised it fast too. Lockdown was literally just announced earlier in the day. Also smart doing it quickly, because restrictions kick in at midnight, so the heavy handed policing we've seen at previous protests won't really fly.
Wish i knew about it, cause I'd just about have gone along.
You do realise both the cdc and the WHO have both stated that lockdowns should only be a last resort right...
Anyway, whilst Delta may be more infectious (thats debatable, at least in this country) it certainly has lower mortality. We've had a grand total of 17 deaths attributed to it this year, in a population of near 26 million. That's not a pandemic sorry. 910 deaths last year. Not a pandemic sorry. Vaccine or no vaccine
But still our politicians insist on causing all this collateral damage to small business, and peoples general well being and mental health, because they have doubled down on it so hard, they can't go back now.
And your last point sounds like something from April 2020
This warms the heart tbh. More and more people are over this bullshit. They organised it fast too. Lockdown was literally just announced earlier in the day. Also smart doing it quickly, because restrictions kick in at midnight, so the heavy handed policing we've seen at previous protests won't really fly.
Wish i knew about it, cause I'd just about have gone along.
FunkMiller
Member
Can anyone point to confirmed, verified and reviewed information that says the covid vaccines are experimental?
Because all I see is stuff like this:
https://fullfact.org/online/covid-vaccines-not-medical-experiment/
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2021/05/14/safe-fast-vaccine-fear-infertility-dna/?outputType=amp
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2AC2G3
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL1N2M70MW
So, come on my anti covid vaccine friends, post your homework. Provide us with recent information that shows that the vaccine is still experimental, and hasn’t passed all necessary safety and efficacy trials.
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D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I think it just comes down to the fact that they are relatively new, widely untested vaccine delivery technologies, that they aren't fully approved by the FDA, and that their long-term safety follow up trials won't be complete for a couple more years (although this is apparently not uncommon even with fully FDA approved vaccines according to Reuters).
I doubt there is even a fixed definition of what "experimental" means, so it's going to come down to what the individual feels comfortable with.
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Ellery
Member
I am asking more out of curiosity, because I am not from Australia and can't properly judge the situation at hand there.
The delta spreading big time so far we have only seen in countries with high vaccination rate like the UK so I can't really compare that when many of those people there actually have the vaccines which prevents them from dying and also with bigger previous covid outbreaks which helped achieving herd immunity
Dr_Salt
Banned
Have mrna vaccines been used before this one in humans? Show me the clinical trials with thousands of humans in the sample size and more than 5 years of trials.
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Singular7
Member
The questions we'll eventually need answered, as a global human society:
- is the state allowed to force a medical procedure on you, or not? (question #1)
- if an individual is allowed to elect out of the medical procedure, does the state have the right to create a "tier system" of compliant vs. non-compliant citizens, and punish the non-compliant (question #2)
- IF the state is allowed to force a medical procedure on citizens, what rights do individuals have if the medical procedure is harmful? (question #3)
A lot of this was already answered by the Nuremberg trials when Nazi's were forcing medical procedures on the Jewish people, but it seems we need some clarification yet.
France is barring unvaccinated citizens from participating in aspects of society. What will the long term effects of that be as a principled argument about the role of the state?
- is the state allowed to force a medical procedure on you, or not? (question #1)
- if an individual is allowed to elect out of the medical procedure, does the state have the right to create a "tier system" of compliant vs. non-compliant citizens, and punish the non-compliant (question #2)
- IF the state is allowed to force a medical procedure on citizens, what rights do individuals have if the medical procedure is harmful? (question #3)
A lot of this was already answered by the Nuremberg trials when Nazi's were forcing medical procedures on the Jewish people, but it seems we need some clarification yet.
France is barring unvaccinated citizens from participating in aspects of society. What will the long term effects of that be as a principled argument about the role of the state?
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FunkMiller
Member
Yes there is. There is a fixed, clear definition of experimental. It means that something has not been approved for use after clinical trials. In medical science, that's the experimental stage. If it has been approved for use after clinical trials it is no longer experimental. Multiple agencies have approved the covid vaccines across the world. They are not experimental. It's not just the FDA that have approved them.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Then that is awesome for her hospital, but that is not the case everywhere and it hasn't been. There were record hospitalization rates last year because of Covid. The articles covering them were everywhere. That's why we had lockdowns last year. It wasn't just about the death rate. It was about trying to limit the potential damage and patient load so that hospitals didn't get overwhelmed.
Singular7
Member
Sure, I remember "two weeks to flatten the curve"
Well now its "take this chemical into your body, or you can't participate in society". The conspiracy about a "vaccine passport" in 2020 is now becoming a global reality.
Get me some links to analyze! I'm curious where you are getting information about an explosion of deaths in the last few weeks, I can't find it.
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D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Well, there you go. Not experimental according to the various government classifications! I may be wrong, but I think most people calling them experimental are just using the word to say we don't know the long term effects yet, because we cannot.
FunkMiller
Member
And those people would be wrong. Because governments and the scientific establishment get to say what an experimental vaccine is, not them. All vaccines are continuously monitored throughout their lives for adverse affects, the same way the covid vaccine continues to be. Are they all experimental too?
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D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I'm sure that will go over well...
FunkMiller
Member
...with idiots? Probably not. Because only idiots think they know better than the people who have the skills, expertise and experience to make qualified judgements on these things.
Cracklox
Member
Well for what its worth, it hasn't spread big time here so far. Sydney for the last couple of weeks are getting around 100-200 cases a day (population 5.5 million). Their now locked down until the end of August. At least. Nothing like places like the UK who were up in 5 figures recently
Read into that what you may
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
No, it's not that they think they know better about the subject matter than the experts (well, not most), it's that they think the experts in power are compromised.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I never said the last few weeks
Singular7
Member
Compromised or not, I think the discussion should be about principles.
On principle, should an individual have the right to determine what chemicals are injected into their body, or not?
Or should the state be allowed to mandate medical procedures?
If an individual doesn't want a medical procedure, should the state / pharma be able to persecute them or bar them from society?
FunkMiller
Member
And there's the crux of the matter, isn't it?
Hordes of people with zero proof thinking medical experts, doctors, epidemiologists, scientists and researchers are 'compromised'. That they are lying to them. That things can't be as bad as they are making out, because Facebook tells them so.
Fuck my life. If every single person out there who decided they knew better than all the epidemiologists, doctors, and scientists because of something they saw on the internet, had a big cake covered in lots of lovely chocolate, the world would be a better place.
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D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Gonna stop responding to you now, because you're basically a psycho.
"People who question things and do not do what they are told by their betters deserve to die." You'd have done well in Nazi Germany.
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FunkMiller
Member
Don't be so childish, with your Godwin's Law babbling. I'm clearly stating that people who have zero evidence of something other than some shit they read on social media are idiots who are weighing the world down for the rest of us.
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Singular7
Member
Well ... to be fair, you did wish for everyone that didn't agree with <PhD>, death. Your counter-arguments are heavy with ad hominem too. Archetyped.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
You know I agree with you that people who think they know better than actual doctors are idiots (because they are), but the drowning comment was a bit much I have to admit.
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FunkMiller
Member
Could you at least make some sense with your responses?
Also, look up 'ad hominem' sometime.
FunkMiller
Member
Oh, bloody hell, if both sides of the argument are having a pop I suppose I'd better change it
EverythingsOverrated
Member
Pretty interesting stuff
Singular7
Member
Ad hominem: instead of replying to an argument, point out some attribute of the person making the argument.
"Idiots don't believe what i think they should believe, and therefore should die"
The argument is "should the state be able to force a medical procedure on citizens, or punish them / isolate them from society if refusing said medical procedure"..
I take it you believe they should be able to force medical procedures on citizenry? It's been tried, never worked well.
I'll post Nuremberg so everyone can read what was determined last time this was tried.
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FunkMiller
Member
Um. Ad hominem requires that the attack is directed against a person. If I'd called Zefah an idiot, that would be ad hominem - and I obviously did not do that.
...and quite where you got anything about medical procedures forced on people from I have no idea, but I'll leave you to it.
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D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Some more info from Israel about fading vaccine (specifically Pfizer) efficacy against infection in the elderly and why the country is pushing for a 3rd shot.
Unfortunately I don't speak Hebrew, so maybe take it with a grain of salt, but interesting data if true.
Unfortunately I don't speak Hebrew, so maybe take it with a grain of salt, but interesting data if true.
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Singular7
Member
That is where this global discussion is going. We should determine the principles underlying the discussion, so we can make wise decisions long-term, rather than creating laws out of fear.
"vaccine passports" "fired from your job if you don't take the medical procedure".
The question, now that people will be barred from restaurants, voting (etc) unless they have a vaccine passport, is "should the state be allowed to require a medical procedure for the entire population, and punish those who opt out?"
Well, what do you think, on principle?
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FunkMiller
Member
No to the first (obviously. You can't force medical procedures on people. That's insane).
And what do you mean by punishment for those that opt out? Not being able to travel or losing a job? Fine with that, to be honest. The vaccines are perfectly safe and there's no reason not to take them. There are many things that can bar you from travel, or get you fired. If you go against your employers reasonable expectations of you, then you can expect consequences to that. Requiring staff to be vaccinated against covid to keep all staff and other safe is perfectly reasonable. Also perfectly reasonable for restaurants or airlines to bar people who are unvaccinated. In a free society, businesses have the right to dictate the terms of their custom.
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Singular7
Member
OK, I can work with this ... so you're making a principled argument that a business should be able to block anyone they want from being a customer, based on whatever attributes the business owner determines?
That means a business can block the vaccinated? What about the gay cake question? What about blocking certain skin colors?
Or do you introduce some additional laws to make it only about what medical procedures a person has had?
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
i'm not vaxed breh. like I said, you're hurting our cause
FunkMiller
Member
Heh. I knew you'd cite those things.
Both sexuality and race are protected characteristics. They are also who people are - not the choices they make. It's bigotry to refuse someone service for being who they are. It's not bigotry to refuse someone service for an active choice they make with their lives - especially when that choice can put others at risk.
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Halo is Back
Member
A "gay cake" and skin color do not threaten the health of staff members and other customers. Not even comparable, pathetic strawman.
adj83
Neo Member
Do we have research papers that tell us any of the following:
Do the mRNA strands stay localised in the cells around the site of injection or do they get spread around the body and you have cells in the liver, heart, legs etc. producing the spike protein?
How long do our own cells produce the spike protein?
Can the spike protein produced by cells in one area of the body get into the blood stream or lymphatic system and be spread around the body?
Is the spike protein that the mRNA produces harmless or can it cause damage on its own?
Does the mRNA vaccine stimulate the same immune response that the virus does? By "same" I mean the same amounts of the various B and T cells, same cytokines etc. and are we left with similar levels of memory T cells etc. in the months after infection/vaccination?
Does natural immunity only target the spike protein of the virus or do your immune cells bind to other areas of the virus?
I'm not trying to argue that you are wrong, I am honestly interested in what the answers to those questions are. I have found it difficult to find those details and there is so much "noise" when I search for the info.
Singular7
Member
Is it the business owners choice, or are you advocating a law that would need to be created to determine which medical discriminations would be allowed by the state?
Could a business owner choose not to serve people who have had abortions for example?
What about smokers? (not smoking, but smokers)
If I haven't been vaccinated, but am not sick, can a business owner still discriminate? (i.e. not a threat to employees, but the business owner only wants malaria vaccinated customers)
What about a business owner who only wants the unvaccinated?
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FunkMiller
Member
How does someone having an abortion pose a risk to other customers? Or how does a smoker who's not actually smoking a cigarette?
Do you understand that unvaccinated people pose a health risk, and that is why they are being barred? Because that's the only metric that matters. And it's why it's perfectly legal to prevent entry.
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Singular7
Member
OK, so if I'm reading you correctly, there would need to be a law written that says a business owner can discriminate as long as they believe the customer is a medical threat to the employees.
Or do you envision the state creating a cycling list of "approved medical discriminations"?
So for example a business owner could require a negative AIDS/HIV test before accepting a customer.
If the business owner isn't allowed to make that determination, do you appoint a governing body to determine which medical procedures count as "discrimination capable"?
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FunkMiller
Member
Why would a person with HIV/AIDS be a threat to the health of other customers in a restaurant or on a plane?
Can you even come up with an example that makes any sense at all?
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