I'm getting that.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DanganRonpa: Trigger Happy Havoc Spoiler Thread - Farewell, spoiler tags of despair!
- Thread starter SolarKnight
- Start date
I'm getting that.
I think a villain who you truly can't understand or empathize with because they are simply that fucked up in the head is okay by me. After all, one of the oldest fears out there is a fear of the unknown, which is well-used all over Chapter 6 and the Epilogue (the whole game, really).
ScraftyDevil
Banned
I've been reading the manga all day while I'm sick in bed, and it really adds to some lf the characters as not every chapter is told from Makoto's perspective. It also makes Leon super sympathetic, as
A) he only broke into Sayaka's bathroom to calm her down as he heard her screaming and freaking out from behind the door; and
B) He killed her by accident after she lunged out of the bathroom at him and ended up impaling herself on her own knife.
I haven't read far enough yet to see if it adds to Mondo's character or not, but I sure hope it does.
Oh, and is the anime at all worth watching? I might give it a look just to see the executions fully animated and voiced.
LaunchpadMcQ
Banned
dakkumauji
Member
The anime is acceptable but also very barebones. Just go with such expectations and it should be fine.
Monokuma also gets nicely animated and the ED is great.
not good?
Which is ironic because he probably deserved it the least out of the killers in that game
I have a theory that the game was supposed to be much darker and more gruesome but decided against it in order to avoid the Z rating (Japan's equivalent of an AO). Hence why the first execution is by far the most graphic compared to the rest (and all of the sequel).
The magnifying glass is a dead giveaway, isn't it?
dakkumauji
Member
Monokuma is cute~
It's barebones to where the characterization just in the game's story is leaps and bounds higher than the anime's.
They also basically made the investigation part a montage which is pretty understandable since they go over everything in the class trials anyway.
Some points get dropped in order to make everything flow more and to make sure it all fits.
Even if your theory were true, I think the implied horror/violence is always a more effective tool to generate squirms. It's always worse when someone just gives you a snippet of something and you have to let it swim in your head for a while.
Crash Station
Member
Speaking of ratings, I heard DR2 is Cero C isntead of D like the first one. Was it toned down even more?
Interesting take from Pepsiman, can definitely see that.
The "Evil for the sake of being evil" kind of villain just seems lazy in a story as good as Danganronpa's. Just IMO.
I don't think it's completely "evil for the sake of evil". Kyoko mentioned Junko fetishizing depair in the last class trial. I took that as part of her actual motivation. Junko gets extreme pleasure from feeling despair and inflicting it on others. It can be a powerful motivator, especially when you lose yourself to it as she did.
I think there's an important distinction between being "evil" and being what Junko was, which was extremely obsessed with the feeling of despair, which goes to Pepsiman's point of intentional incomprehensibility.
When Junko says that she came to love all of the students or when she says how she was jealous of those who experienced so much despair like her sister, I don't think she's lying. Maybe, in her mind, doing what she did to them was her kind of twisted display of affection.
I see your point, though.
dakkumauji
Member
Thinking about it, I would say the executions are less gruesome in the second game compared to the first game and probably just more psychological damaging instead.
The murders are about the same though (SDR2 spoilers)
kinda surprised with that rating, with how chapter 5's murder was. Actually just remember chapter 3's was pretty bad too. :x
Crash Station
Member
The whole "despair" schtick Junko has going on is just sadism taken to the extreme (with a bit of masochism mixed in). Some people are sadistic by nature, so I don't think she really needs a Freudian excuse for her actions. Just combine that sadism with a total lack of empathy (or at least a warped version of it), intelligence, and all around insanity and you got yourself a damn ridiculous antagonist.
I'm no philosophy major, so I could be getting this all backwards, but I feel that Danganronpa deals with the idea of "the absurd" pretty well. Basically, when confronted with a completely meaningless world (the post-apocalyptic outside world) you can either completely lose yourself to despair (the idea which Junko completely embodies) or you can continue on in spite of it, to forge your own meaning (Naegi and the others choice at the end to venture into the unknown, outside world). That's the way I saw it, at least.
Crash Station
Member
So it's probably still getting an M rating over here, right?
That works
I'd say the Chapter 5 murder alone ensures an M rating.
I understand he motives, and the way she derives pleasure. It's that "my sister and I were born to embody despair" that I'm not a big fan of.
Take the example of the Joker from The Dark Knight, we really have no idea what made him into what he was, because it's irrelevant information. It would only demystify his character. Imagine if at one point in the movie if he had said "I was born into this world to embody choas. It was my destiny."
My thing with Junko, is her literally having to explain to us what she is. Rather than just have her actions speak for themselves.
Just my opinion, I still really like the character.
Thanks for posting that as that's the exact scene I was speaking of.
Red The Hunter
Member
Why do I get the feeling this isn't bored Junko, but more of high Junko, she has mushrooms growing out of her hair for heaven's sake.
Why do I get the feeling a Mushroom Samba would incur with her. Talking about despair to her plants and whatnot.
Joker: If I'm going to have a past, I'd rather it be multiple choice!
LaunchpadMcQ
Banned
Yeah, don't do that. I stumbled on something while I was over there that seemed like it might be a big deal, luckily I have absolutely no idea what it means until I actually play DR2.
I really wouldn't say Leon 'deserved it the least'. It stopped being 'self-defense' and started being real, actual murder when Sayaka retreated into the bathroom. He could have stopped at any point from thereon, or knocked on someone's door to report what just happened or whatever, and he didn't. Kyoko points out as much, so as sorry as I am for him being unfortunate enough to be put in that situation in the first place, yeah, that's about as far as my sympathy goes.
This will probably be an extremely silly comparison (and it is, so I apologize), but 'cosmic horror' or Lovecraft's brand of horror, at least, relied largely on ordinary people looking down into the mouth of madness and understanding absolutely nothing about what they were witnessing and why it was happening, to them or others. It uses a fear of the uncompromisingly incomprehensible. Before anyone stops me, I certainly don't think this story could be called anything near 'cosmic horror' and Junko's not exactly Nyarlathotep, but I think the principle for what makes her so appealing as a villain sits somewhere along that, there's no understanding her, therefore there's no reasoning with her. That's what makes her so frightening.
And in the context of the game's overarching conflict of 'hope and despair', what's more depressing than learning that you went through this for no other reason but to prove some really sick and twisted point in front of millions/billions of people? What's more hopeful than pushing ahead despite that?
EDIT: Well, this was hugely late to the party. I don't think that Junko's been entirely 'demystified' in the first place - we still have no understanding of how she brought the world into despair (besides some vague references to how it's like a sickness), and we still have no understanding how she managed to enact the most horrible, most tragic event in human history. Even her explanation of how she was born isn't quite adequate to describe 'what she is' is pretty rudimentary. Being 'born into the world to embody despair' doesn't explain much, if anything. It's hard to even say if she was even being literal.
I just think that saying she's 'evil for the sake of being evil' is pushing it, because I don't think she sees herself as being 'evil'. She's so twisted up inside that everything she's done is to prove that despair is somehow better than hope, that she wants "this world to die with that despair in its mouth". I think she's set herself up as the good guy in her own head, and her tirade about how 'jealous' she was of Mukuro for experiencing the despair she must have felt when she was killed by her own sister, and later when she was facing her own death makes that clear. It's a really alien thought process to be sure, but I don't think that's any reason to minimize her motivations.
This will probably be an extremely silly comparison (and it is, so I apologize), but 'cosmic horror' or Lovecraft's brand of horror, at least, relied largely on ordinary people looking down into the mouth of madness and understanding absolutely nothing about what they were witnessing and why it was happening, to them or others. It uses a fear of the uncompromisingly incomprehensible. Before anyone stops me, I certainly don't think this story could be called anything near 'cosmic horror' and Junko's not exactly Nyarlathotep, but I think the principle for what makes her so appealing as a villain sits somewhere along that, there's no understanding her, therefore there's no reasoning with her. That's what makes her so frightening.
And in the context of the game's overarching conflict of 'hope and despair', what's more depressing than learning that you went through this for no other reason but to prove some really sick and twisted point in front of millions/billions of people? What's more hopeful than pushing ahead despite that?
EDIT: Well, this was hugely late to the party. I don't think that Junko's been entirely 'demystified' in the first place - we still have no understanding of how she brought the world into despair (besides some vague references to how it's like a sickness), and we still have no understanding how she managed to enact the most horrible, most tragic event in human history. Even her explanation of how she was born isn't quite adequate to describe 'what she is' is pretty rudimentary. Being 'born into the world to embody despair' doesn't explain much, if anything. It's hard to even say if she was even being literal.
Yeah, still thought Kyoko being the Ultimate Detective was the least surprising revelation of all time. That was my first guess.
This, this, this. Absolutely this. Everything about this execution was agonizingly paced (in the best way) and agonizing to go through (in the best way) - stretched out just long enough that you're maybe, possibly hoping that something might possibly happen to get her out of it. And then... splat. Oh god, that left entirely too much to the imagination.
Yeah, I thought hand-over-face Junko was the bored one, and it's my favorite personality.
dakkumauji
Member
I believe each one of Junko's personalities is suppose to represent one of the remaining cast members.
You got glasses Junko for Togami.
Kawaii Junko for Aoi.
Crazy Junko for Jill.
Mushroom Junko for Toko.
JoJo Junko for Kirigiri.
Who wants to Makoto cause
ScraftyDevil
Banned
No, that's Dio Brando Junko.
I think my favourite personality was either Rocker or Queen because of how hilariously over the top they were.
That's definitely a good way of seeing it, and it almost works, but yeah, there's not much of a Hagakure equivalent.
Does Makoto really scream all that often? Sounds like something that'd occur more in the anime or the Japanese dub.
Red The Hunter
Member
When you say Rocker Junko you mean this, because oh man. That non-stop debate with her is hilarious.
LaunchpadMcQ
Banned
Pfft, yeah. When he finds Sayaka's body or the headmaster's bones (after Kyoko specifically tells him not to scream lol).
About to start the chapter 6 trial Eng Dubbed tonight. Has Junko been done justice? The dub is good imo, with the exception being Makoto in some scenes. Celeste in the Ch. 3 trial has been the stand out performance so far. Would actually rated the dub on par with the original if not for Makoto hamming it up in some scenes (like discovering Chihiro's body). Hopefully *minor SDR2 spoiler*
Brice delivers properly with Komaeda. It would be a crime to the character if he halfasses it.
Fair points, Moonlight. Again, it's just my opinion. I'm just not a fan of villains that feel the need to tell me that they're the embodiment of darkness, sorrow, despair, bad stuff, etc. I feel it can undermind the character, and the story, in most cases. If you're a truly evil character, you shouldn't have to tell people that you're evil--know what I'm sayin'? 
I really wish the second game wasn't such a ways off.
I really wish the second game wasn't such a ways off.
Oh yeah, that's a specific moment that stands out. Still, it's kinda justified, heh.
I'd say my favourite Junko was either Queenly Junko (I love her dumb crown), Bored Junko or Monojunko. Although I'd say they were all great.
For sure. I can get that, although I'd still say that Junko ultimately showed a lot more than she told.Fair points, Moonlight. Again, it's just my opinion. I'm just not a fan of villains that feel the need to tell me that they're the embodiment of darkness, sorrow, despair, bad stuff, etc. I feel it can undermind the character, and the story, in most cases. If you're a truly evil character, you shouldn't have to tell people that you're evil--know what I'm sayin'?
I really wish the second game wasn't such a ways off.
This probably isn't saying much since I haven't heard the JP audio yet, but I can definitely say that Junko (all of Junko) was a major stand-out performance in a game I thought was full of stand-out performances.
dakkumauji
Member
I mean Hagakure could be the mushroom one, noting how no one cares about him. Even if he's still one of the survivors.
I wanna say he screams every time a body is discovered. I mean when he discovers Ishimaru's body, Togami was just standing there waiting for him to scream, with that annoyed look on his face knowing that would happen.
Hell after a while, Makoto's screams might as well be the new body discovery announcement.
Similar threads
- Poll