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[PK Gaming]

She was a bit of a stability in an otherwise chaotic web of relationships. They made her a source of strength for the player, but I never thought she was completely safe... especially after the subversion they did for Sayaka's character.

That's how I see it.

Kyoko wasn't perfect; she got valuable information because she took massive risks and almost died because of them.

He was, I agree. Which I think comes off as a bit phony overall.

The phoniest thing is how Byakuya and Kyoko know 100% of what is going on at all times and basically refuse to let anything go wrong. Sorta takes the tension out!

???

Byakuya was mostly in the dark for the latter half of the game. He falls for Monokuma's pathetic group picture gambit, and outright denies the possibility of Junko being killed twice.

Kyoko's gambling, but she is the only one who actually knows what is going on. She's also at that point called it out as a trap at least twice. Byakuya might not always know exactly what is going on, but he's written in a way that really does make you feel consistently like the dumbest one in the room. I was so tired of seeing, "Well, you tell 'em, Makoto." Just really sort of weak because it makes Makoto and Byakuya feel like showrunners.

That's just in his nature; Byakuya's an arrogant asshole, (even when he's in the dark) but at least he manages to give credit where credit is due by praising Makoto's overly nit-picky nature.

 

[Moonlight]

Also, I think here's the logic: Mukuro as Junko got killed in front of everyone by Monokuma, for 'breaking the rules'. Therefore there's no need for the 'discovery' announcement.

But people didn't discover Junko's corpse, they discovered Mukuro's, therefore it was a 'new' body from their point of view. Monokuma was cheating, certainly, but I think the logic holds up.

 

[AniHawk]

I just beat it and I don't think I like how it ended.

Most importantly, though, wasn't Junko cheating in the end? When "Junko" was stabbed by Monokuma early in the game, there was no body discovery announcement. But then Monokuma makes the announcement later when they find "Junko's" body later in the game. That's a phony discovery message.

The game makes a big point of talking about how the mastermind and monokuma are bound by the rules...especially to the television audience...but this just seems super phony.

i assumed that any rules set by monokuma superseded any of the rules relating specifically to the class trial. if someone fell asleep outside their dorm room, they would be killed. that doesn't mean they were killed by junko the student, but for breaking the rules. mukuro dies because she broke the rule about attacking monokuma.

everything about chapter 5 was meant to ensnare kyoko. all of chapter 5 was meant to specifically get rid of her. monokuma/junko breaks their own rules. that's the leverage kyoko uses in chapter 6 to keep her and makoto alive until the final class trial.

 

[BronsonLee]

Body stuff, then Byakuya/Kyoko stuff

Yeah, the body thing in 5 is pretty flimsy.

Rolling Ishimaru ;_;

Rolling Ishimaru ;_;

 

[GuardianE]

I've already stipulated to all of that. My complaint isn't that it's a plot hole or a loop hole or whatever, I'm complaining that it is phony and breaks some of the internal logic of the game. When you think about how critical the body discovery message is to some of the earlier murders in the game, learning about how it can be manipulated cheapens it for me.

And having to argue over what discovered means demonstrates it is pretty weak in execution...

Well, first of all the rules can be amended and changed at any time. That's probably the most important rule established by Monokuma. They're pretty malleable, which automatically makes them kind of a weak foundation for logic. Secondly, we already established in Case 2 that loopholes in the rules can be abused to create confusion or scenarios that shouldn't happen.

Also, I don't think it necessarily hurts the logic of Case 3 because the bell still rang whenever a dead body was discovered or re-discovered.

It's pretty clear that by the time Chapter 5 rolls around, Junko is desperate to get rid of Kyoko because of her antics post-Sakura's assistance. She was, at that point, willing to fake a murder as long as it was logically sound for her viewers. I don't think it cheapens anything because this is an exception. She's willing to do anything necessary behind the scenes to kill Kyoko and make it look legitimate. Kyoko tells you right up front that the mastermind is breaking the rules, but is also bound by them. It's kind of a "gloves are off", let's fight dirty as long as the referee doesn't see, type of battle going on.

 

[PKrockin]

The whole point of the body discovery announcement is to let everyone know that they have to start investigating in preparation for the class trial. There was no trial, in this case.

 

[buddha0991]

The second this plays instead of the normal investigation music, you just go SHIEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

 

[dakkumauji]

Rolling Ishimaru ;_;

I don't think I can take any more tears tonight. ;_;

 

[Squire]

It is honestly kind of sad when Hifume has more development than Taka. I actually felt bad for him in the end, Taka, I felt less for him when Ishida happened.

Kyoko is fucking baller, but don't you guys feel like shes a little TOO strong and smart, if you know what I mean? Like, I knew from the first chapter, "yea, she is either gonna die in the final case, or make it to the end." She is still awesome though, and I wish Naoto from Persona 4 was more like her, and actually...you know, detected shit, instead of becoming a parrot.

With Kyoko it's not really about whether she's going to live or die. Kyoko represents the element of trust in the game. Makoto struggles with that and so should you as the player; To the point that the game ultimately tests whether you really do trust her or not.

Also, as the game goes on, Kyoko is humanized more and more. She's introduced as this stoic badass that needs no introduction, but you're slowly shown she's not invincible as the game goes on. She has her own baggage to deal with just as everyone else does.

Edit: And yeah dude, I totally agree. Kyoko is everything Naoto should've been in the detective regard.

 

[buddha0991]

With Kyoko it's not really about whether she's going to live or die. Kyoko represents the element of trust in the game. Makoto struggles with that and so should you as the player; To the point that the game ultimately tests whether you really do trust her or not.

Also, as the game goes on, Kyoko is humanized more and more. She's introduced as this stoic badass that needs no introduction, but you're slowly shown she's not invincible as the game goes on. She has her own baggage to deal with just as everyone else does.

Edit: And yeah dude, I totally agree. Kyoko is everything Naoto should've been in the detective regard.

The dynamic between Makoto and her is awesome. Also, when Case Five ended up almost being a logic duel between the two, I sort of got a "Student fights the master" type vibe.

 

[Squire]

The dynamic between Makoto and her is awesome. Also, when Case Five ended up almost being a logic duel between the two, I sort of got a "Student fights the master" type vibe.

Totally. Earlier in the thread Levito compared her to Obi-Wan.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

Rolling Ishimaru ;_;

This video grabbed my heart and punched it until it bled. At least they're together forever now... T^T

 

[PK Gaming]

With Kyoko it's not really about whether she's going to live or die. Kyoko represents the element of trust in the game. Makoto struggles with that and so should you as the player; To the point that the game ultimately tests whether you really do trust her or not.

Also, as the game goes on, Kyoko is humanized more and more. She's introduced as this stoic badass that needs no introduction, but you're slowly shown she's not invincible as the game goes on. She has her own baggage to deal with just as everyone else does.

Edit: And yeah dude, I totally agree. Kyoko is everything Naoto should've been in the detective regard.

Hmm, I never really thought about it that way, but you're right.

Well said!

Spoiler

I am going to endlessly tease Dantis about her if/when he starts DR

 

[GuardianE]

Hmm, I never really thought about it that way, but you're right.

Well said!

Spoiler

I am going to endlessly tease Dantis about her if/when he starts DR

Yeah, she's absolutely the trust test of the game.

They drive it home when during Report Card segments, she begins to confide in you. And then there's that whole argument you have with her because you're not honest about Sakura being the spy. And then there's Case 5 where she trusts you not to divulge her secret.

 

[buddha0991]

Totally. Earlier in the thread Levito compared her to Obi-Wan.

 

[Squire]

Hmm, I never really thought about it that way, but you're right.

Well said!

Spoiler

I am going to endlessly tease Dantis about her if/when he starts DR

Hahaha, yes! She's sooooo much better. You know I love P4 deeply, but after chapter 1 of DR, Naoto seemed blatantly egregious.

And thanks!

Yeah, she's absolutely the trust test of the game.

They drive it home when during Report Card segments, she begins to confide in you. And then there's that whole argument you have with her because you're not honest about Sakura being the spy. And then there's Case 5 where she trusts you not to divulge her secret.

It's great, right? It's such an awesome, actual relationship. Kyoko isn't just a love interest or a waifu or a badass. There's a real character there and a real relationship completely based on trust. Fantastic.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

And then there's Case 5 where she trusts you not to divulge her secret.

In exchange for Makoto's life. Man, if it wasn't for Alter Ego... Just like she said, she abandoned him there and was being selfish because she prioritized her life over his, claiming to be the only one who could uncover the truth behind Hope's Peak (which was probably true, but still).

There are a few times where I think Makoto should have been way more confrontational than he was. I guess it would have been out of character for the "Ultimate Hope", but I would have wanted him to be somewhat pissed at Mondo after he got knocked out for nothing or after he returns to the remaining survivors after his supposed execution.

 

[GuardianE]

In exchange for Makoto's life. Man, if it wasn't for Alter Ego... Just like she said, she abandoned him there and was being selfish because she prioritized her life over his, claiming to be the only one who could uncover the truth behind Hope's Peak (which was probably true, but still).

There are a few times where I think Makoto should have been way more confrontational than he was. I guess it would have been out of character for the "Ultimate Hope", but I would have wanted him to be somewhat pissed at Mondo after he got knocked out for nothing or after he returns to the remaining survivors after his supposed execution0

I guess there's a small chance that Kyoko was waiting for the opportunity to jump and intervene by pushing both Makoto and her off the execution track if Alter Ego hadn't stopped the machine. An unlikely possibility.

But yeah, you're right. She ultimately put her life in Makoto's hands and left it up to him to decide who survives. I don't think that's fair, but it was necessary.

 

[dakkumauji]

There are a few times where I think Makoto should have been way more confrontational than he was. I guess it would have been out of character for the "Ultimate Hope", but I would have wanted him to be somewhat pissed at Mondo after he got knocked out for nothing or after he returns to the remaining survivors after his supposed execution0

I think Makoto is just way too passive in general.

I mean we already know he basically gets string along in the trials and investigations from Chapter 1 to 3. And there are times in Chapter 5's trial where Kirigiri is literally asking him to present evidence that will indict himself!

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Totally. Earlier in the thread Levito compared her to Obi-Wan.

Eh... At times I felt she was a female (and a little less assholish) Byakuya... like she actually expected Naegi did her reasoning because she actually didn't have an idea.

Then again, that is weakest element of Danganronpa as a Mistery game/novel.

 

[kewlmyc]

I guess there's a small chance that Kyoko was waiting for the opportunity to jump and intervene by pushing both Makoto and her off the execution track in Alter Ego hadn't intervened. An unlikely possibility.

But yeah, you're right. She ultimately put her life in Makoto's hands and left it up to him to decide who survives. I don't think that's fair, but it was necessary.

Thinking about it now, she really does let Makoto decide who lives or dies. She seems perfectly okay (or at least doesn't show emotion) with his decision if you pick the bad ending. Plus she was more than willing to put her life on the line to go rescue him.

I think Makoto is just way too passive in general.

I mean we already know he basically gets string along in the trials and investigations from Chapter 1 to 3. And there are times in Chapter 5's trial where Kirigiri is literally asking him to present evidence that will indict himself!

I found this hilarious. He would finally get the heat taken off of him just for Kirigiri to tell him to present evidence in her favor. I know why the game does that, but it's still pretty jarring.

 

[GuardianE]

Eh... At times I felt she was a female (and a little less assholish) Byakuya... like she actually expected Naegi did her reasoning because she actually didn't have an idea.

Then again, that is weakest element of Danganronpa as a Mistery game/novel.

She is nothing like Byakuya.

Spoiler

I hate Byakuya and adore Kyoko.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

She is nothing like Byakuya.

K: Go to the secret room.

N: Okay

-later-

N: I got knocked out.

K: As I expected. Something else?

N: Well... nothing.

K: HOLYFUCK I MAD WITH WHY DONT YOU TRUST ME

Spoiler

I still like her... but I also like Celeste and post Case 4 Byakuya

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Thinking about it now, she really does let Makoto decide who lives or dies. She seems perfectly okay (or at least doesn't show emotion) with his decision if you pick the bad ending. Plus she was more than willing to put her life on the line to go rescue him.

I don't think she seemed okay at all during the bad ending based on her attitude and dialogue. For one, we've learned throughout the game that when Kyoko is being uncharacteristically silent, it's because of internal turmoil (such as during the scene in her father's office). Like she says in her S. Links, though, she's just good at not showing it.

It's good that she put her life on the line to go rescue him, but it's definitely because of the guilt that came over her after the whole thing happened (which I think she says as much when she meets him in the dump).

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

It's good that she put her life on the line to go rescue him, but it's definitely because of the guilt that came over her after the whole thing happened (which I think she says as much when she meets him in the dump).

She explicity says that. She didn't expected that Alter Ego intervined at last minute.

Her only defense is that she believed Naegi expected his execution outcome (he doesn't, neither the player)

 

[Squire]

I found this hilarious. He would finally get the heat taken off of him just for Kirigiri to tell him to present evidence in her favor. I know why the game does that, but it's still pretty jarring.

I think that's part of the trust test. It's not personal, Kyoko's just playing the game. You're in court after all. Ultimately you're given the choice to pay her back and I found I failed. I thought "Well, she's pushing Makoto, so I'll push her!" I chose wrong though. I didn't want her to die. And nothing she called Makoto on was that severe.

 

[BronsonLee]

Well, you have to remember, Monokuma threw all that shit into turmoil by ending the trial early. Kyoko was likely going to try and steer it towards 'this shit isn't real' more than 'Makoto did it', but never had the shot.

It's still totally fucked though, and makes things feel far more real. It was a pretty screwed up thing to do, but desperate times...

You have to remember, she was pretty damn close to being voted as the murderer, if Monokuma felt like ending the trial that early. Her lying was basically her last shot.

They laid the inner turmoil from Makoto on a bit too thick for my liking, so I figured the correct answer was no; I called her on it anyway because why not

 

[Moonlight]

I think that's part of the trust test. It's not personal, Kyoko's just playing the game. You're in court after all. Ultimately you're given the choice to pay her back and I found I failed. I thought "Well, she's pushing Makoto, so I'll push her!" I chose wrong though. I didn't want her to die. And nothing she called Makoto on was that severe.

Yeah. If Kyoko was the trust test, I failed it on my first run. I didn't want to kill her and I didn't know that Monokuma would rush the result like that, and when the execution scene revved up, I was feeling enormously shitty about myself.

 

[kewlmyc]

She explicity says that. She didn't expected that Alter Ego intervined at last minute.

Her only defense is that she believed Naegi expected his execution outcome (he doesn't, neither the player)

Well that and no one expected a Time Over from Monokuma. Her original intent was to force Monokuma to reveal that the whole thing was a farce.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Edit: And yeah dude, I totally agree. Kyoko is everything Naoto should've been in the detective regard.

She is better character (and detective) than Naoto, but I will say she is more flawed and egoistical. And she sucked the tension out the game because "she always knew"... even when is clear the outcome would have been different without Naegi.

Spoiler

Like I said, I like her. But I wish Naegi called her at certain points, even Obi Wan was called out by Luke.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

They laid the inner turmoil from Makoto on a bit too thick for my liking, so I figured the correct answer was no; I called her on it anyway because why not

I didn't think about it too hard at the time, but I probably thought that it might have been a "protect Kyoko" or not kind of choice, but in relation to the murder.

Like hell I'm gonna trust a potential murderer! I pursued the truth and I don't regret it.

...Pf, might as well be the right decision. Even Alter Ego didn't bother trying to save her.

 

[Squire]

Yeah. If Kyoko was the trust test, I failed it on my first run. I didn't want to kill her and I didn't know that Monokuma would rush the result like that, and when the execution scene revved up, I was feeling enormously shitty about myself.

Yes, exactly. I chose to be vindictive in that moment and I deeply regretted it. Because I was convinced that that really was it for her and Makoto and myself would have to live with that.

 

[kewlmyc]

I didn't think about it too hard at the time, but I probably thought that it might have been a "protect Kyoko" or not kind of choice, but in relation to the murder.

Like hell I'm gonna trust a potential murderer! I pursued the truth and I don't regret it.

...Pf, might as well be the right decision. Even Alter Ego didn't bother trying to save her.

Probably because Makoto was the only one to call him a friend. Or am I wrong about this?

Anyway, blah blah blah Ultimate Luck.

Yes, exactly. I chose to be vindictive in that moment and I deeply regretted it. Because I was convinced that that really was it for her and Makoto and myself would have to live with that.

Wish the game could have went on from there, resulting in two endings. One with Kirigiri and one without. Would really jack up the budget though.

 

[BronsonLee]

I didn't think about it too hard at the time, but I probably thought that it might have been a "protect Kyoko" or not kind of choice, but in relation to the murder.

Like hell I'm gonna trust a potential murderer! I pursued the truth and I don't regret it.

...Pf, might as well be the right decision. Even Alter Ego didn't bother trying to save her.

It was funny seeing Makoto trying to justify it by saying 'but she said to pursue the truth!' or some such nonsense. It's real easy to twist stuff to justify the means, ya?

Man, her execution and the bad ending in general were totally fucked up. Stoic up until right before...then crunch. Then that goddamn bad ending photograph. So screwed up.

Goddamnit Alter Ego!

Yes, exactly. I chose to be vindictive in that moment and I deeply regretted it. Because I was convinced that that really was it for her and Makoto and myself would have to live with that.

As the trial was going along, I straight up thought she had killed El Fuerte: Luchadora Edition to protect Makoto, but that seemed a bit too clean.

Also, can we talk about how Makoto is freaking retarded for letting everybody into his damn room all the time

Wish the game could have went on from there, resulting in two endings. One with Kirigiri and one without. Would really jack up the budget though.

Man that would've TOTALLY fucked me over. That's some straight up REDACTED RPG BUT THINK ABOUT IT stuff

 

[Squire]

She is better character (and detective) than Naoto, but I will say she is more flawed and egoistical. And she sucked the tension out the game because "she always knew"... even when is clear the outcome would have been different without Naegi.

Spoiler

Like I said, I like her. But I wish Naegi called her at certain points, even Obi Wan was called out by Luke.

I think the game acts on what you're talking about, but not in the way you mention. Makoto isn't confrontational outside of trials where it's life or death. That's just not the character, so he's never going to do that. Instead it goes back to trust. Kyoko always has it right and always does the right thing, right? Then was doesn't Makoto tell her about Sakura? Why does he (potentially) snitch her out in Chapter 5? Because he's not all the way confident that she has all the answers, all the time.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Also, can we talk about how Makoto is freaking retarded for letting everybody into his damn room all the time

That was kind of weird the first time someone had just come into his room because he didn't lock it. At least, it's the only time it happened before the mastermind came in, and that might have just been because they unlocked it themselves.

Kyoko's the one who went into his room saying it wasn't locked, right? At that point, had she gained the universal school key?

 

[PKrockin]

Was it so much to ask Kyoko to warn Makoto that he might be attacked if he goes to the secret room?

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Was it so much to ask Kyoko to warn Makoto that he might be attacked if he goes to the secret room?

That's the kind of stuff that made it difficult to trust her. "Trust" is supposed to be mutual. She was secretive about a whole lot of stuff, and pulling stunts like that don't help. Her excuse for that particular one: something like "You're still alive, aren't you?"

 

[BronsonLee]

That was kind of weird the first time someone had just come into his room because he didn't lock it. At least, it's the only time it happened before the mastermind came in, and that might have just been because they unlocked it themselves.

Kyoko's the one who went into his room saying it wasn't locked, right? At that point, had she gained the universal school key?

Good point; I don't know if she had the school key yet. I don't believe she did.

Also, there were all those times where he just let people in when they rang the damn bell or knocked. Bitch the rooms are soundproof and you just closed the damn door!

Was it so much to ask Kyoko to warn Makoto that he might be attacked if he goes to the secret room?

I know, right?! Or that he was the bait so she could check stuff out elsewhere. Come on, girl!

Oh, and one amusing moment: The goddamn ramen cup on her head after she fell in the trash

 

[dakkumauji]

Also, can we talk about how Makoto is freaking retarded for letting everybody into his damn room all the time

I think he just didn't lock it after feeling sick. I mean I think it would be good practice in this sort of situation (possibility of getting murdered by anyone) to always lock your door after you enter your room, but hey, he's also the same guy who keeps leaving weapons in his room.

Was it so much to ask Kyoko to warn Makoto that he might be attacked if he goes to the secret room?

It was a trust building exercise.

He only almost died!

 

[Squire]

That's the kind of stuff that made it difficult to trust her. "Trust" is supposed to be mutual. She was secretive about a whole lot of stuff, and pulling stunts like that don't help. Her excuse for that particular one: something like "You're still alive, aren't you?"

It's a struggle and a two-way street. That's what makes it so interesting.

 

[kewlmyc]

That's the kind of stuff that made it difficult to trust her. "Trust" is supposed to be mutual. She was secretive about a whole lot of stuff, and pulling stunts like that don't help. Her excuse for that particular one: something like "You're still alive, aren't you?"

Yet she threw a fit about the Sakura thing. At least she admits it was a little much on her end.

Then again, Makoto could have said he didn't have enough proof yet or something. He didn't have to flat out say no to her. Also, Spike Chunsoft, don't put in choices if you're just going to choose for us.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Then was doesn't Makoto tell her about Sakura? Why does he (potentially) snitch her out in Chapter 5? Because he's not all the way confident that she has all the answers, all the time.

Well, I don't think she has all the answers (thats why I compared her with Byakuya)
but in that case about Sakura:

1) Makoto probably thought she well let fly his secret because she just told him that she knew he will get attacked

2) Makoto knows that she is not charismatic enough to difuse the situation with Sakura (thought he still probably should have told her... I choose first that option )

 

[FluxWaveZ]

It's a struggle and a two-way street. That's what makes it so interesting.

It made the dynamic of naive protag and secretive ally(?) interesting, but also what made it satisfying to call out her lie during the court scene. Wish there was something like that against her that didn't end up leading to a bad ending.

 

[PKrockin]

Did Makoto ever hide anything from Kyoko up to that secret room point?

 

[GuardianE]

That's the kind of stuff that made it difficult to trust her. "Trust" is supposed to be mutual. She was secretive about a whole lot of stuff, and pulling stunts like that don't help. Her excuse for that particular one: something like "You're still alive, aren't you?"

The point is that Makoto's supposed to be pushing the trust aspect with her because she normally doesn't trust people as a very independent person. She has trust issues as well. Kyoko doesn't fully trust you until Chapter 5, but she sees the potential in you from the beginning. That's why she slowly opens up to you. Makoto's supposed to be able to encourage trust in others as the Ultimate Hope.

I mean, it's not necessarily a logical or intelligent role to fill. That's why it's Makoto's.

 

[BronsonLee]

I think he just didn't lock it after feeling sick. I mean I think it would be good practice in this sort of situation (possibility of getting murdered by anyone) to always lock your door after you enter your room, but hey, he's also the same guy who keeps leaving weapons in his room.

Dumbest man on the planet. If you're sick, maybe have your homies help you out. Dumbass Supreme!

And his actions got Sayaka killed! ...In one of the most heavy subversions I've seen in a while!

 

[FluxWaveZ]

I mean, it's not necessarily a logical or intelligent role to fill. That's why it's Makoto's.

I get that, but I'm talking about me as the player. That's why one of my favorite characters is Byakuya, who doesn't have time for that trust crap.

Did Makoto ever hide anything from Kyoko up to that secret room point?

Not that I can think of, but I can't really recall him hiding anything from anyone up until that point (if it took place after he lead Taka to see Alter Ego and kept it secret from Kyoko, that is).

 

[GuardianE]

I get that, but I'm talking about me as the player. That's why one of my favorite characters is Byakuya, who doesn't have time for that trust crap.

And that's exactly why I find Byakuya repulsive.

The whole point with Makoto is that he doesn't analyze things with only logic, but uses emotional motivations as well. It's an aspect that Byakuya admits he is lacking.

 

[Squire]

It made the dynamic of naive protag and secretive ally(?) interesting, but also what made it satisfying to call out her lie during the court scene. Wish there was something like that against her that didn't end up leading to a bad ending.

Hmm, that's fair.

Did Makoto ever hide anything from Kyoko up to that secret room point?

Makoto's not skilled enough to ever get a whole lot of info to do that with.