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DanganRonpa: Trigger Happy Havoc Spoiler Thread - Farewell, spoiler tags of despair!
- Thread starter SolarKnight
- Start date
Kyoko had examined the body already, regardless of Monokuma declaring the trial over, I think Kyoko throwing up her obvious suspician that the body belonged to someone who had been killed weeks earlier probably would have thrown a wrench in the trial being allowed to end early. It played out like it did for the shock value but taking it at face level, Kyoko was an ass who didn't feel like dipping into the secrets she had under her belt.
Kyoko hadn't examined the body (or at least not forensically) in trial 5 because she was on the 2nd floor dorms for most of the day. She missed the body discovery message and only came out when the trial start message was played, so she only had a couple of minutes to check the body.
She probably panicked and tried to shift the blame onto to Makoto to ensure that even if she couldn't prove that Mukuru was murdered by someone besides Makoto(a huge feat by itself since she didn't examine the body thoroughly), she wouldn't have to face punishment
If time had run out in the middle of her explanation, she'd be screwed
Which is a dick move, but when your life is on the line you tend to make those kinds of decisions
If time had run out in the middle of her explanation, she'd be screwed
Which is a dick move, but when your life is on the line you tend to make those kinds of decisions
She tells you all that she was late because she stopped to take a look at the scene before coming to the court room. It's Kyoko, even if she only looked at the body for two minutes, I promise she noticed the nails and the multiple old stab wounds all over the body.
No, she doesn't bother trying to unravel anything. She went into the trial and played defense rather than trying to at least point out the elephant in the room, namely that everyone watched this murder occur.
Thank you, I wanted to post that.
How would she have known that it was the small piercing wounds which killed Mukuro? She doesn't even realize this until later, when they have enough time to examine the corpse in preparation for the final trial.
She was there at the scene for a few minutes at most. She can sense the inconsistencies but not so conclusively that she can convince everyone else of her doubts.
She was there at the scene for a few minutes at most. She can sense the inconsistencies but not so conclusively that she can convince everyone else of her doubts.
dakkumauji
Member
He's called the Ultimate Despair (among other things) for a reason.
This was completely uncharacteristic of her. If it were just the wounds then I could agree that maybe she needed more time to wrap her head around it but she had proved multiple times throughout the game that she was a stickler for the smallest details, a single glance at the corpse and you would notice those fake red nails, only one person matched that description and I highly doubt that Kyoko just drops all knowledge of a person once they die.
Actually, she spends a portion of the trial trying to entrap Makoto to save her own skin.
When Makoto refutes her obvious lies she panics and says:
And by her own admission:
I think it's safe to assume that was trying to indict Makoto to get the heat away from her. And that's totally fine! She got dealt a really bad hand and panicked; I think most people would do the same in her situation. If she had more info that case would have been significantly different.
That's a pretty big jump. She's really good at it, but she's no miracle worker. Its such a minor detail that could have easily been forgotten by then. Not to mention, its not like it would ever have been the only possibility based off that detail alone. She said it herself, the method of a detective is to imagine every possibility and rule out what is impossible as you gather evidence.
Really, it just seems unfair to expect that out of her or anyone, really.
Nah, not at all. All she had to do was point out that the body was Junko's (not even needing to prove that this Junko was a fake), do a decent job of convincing everyone (fingernails, multiple old wounds on the body which everyone could confirm by reading the monokuma file they already had, and that the bomb conveniently made id'ing the face impossible) and at that point the group could call for a "mistrial" of sorts because they were investigating a murder under false pretenses, mastermind agrees but says since it is obvious that the mastermind was the killer they would need to solve all of the mysteries of the school blah blah, que the same chapter 6 investigation and trial but with the knowledge that the body belonged to Junko(?) throughout the whole investigation. This keeps Kyoko's chracter stable, skill-wise, throughout the game and make more sense IMO.
Like I said, they did trial 5 that way for a neat little shock (OMG, Makoto isn't really going to die, right?) but it was a very weak part of the game.
Well, this whole debate came up because people were saying that Kyoko did what she had to do and had no other option, obviously I think she is an ass who took the easy way out.
So yeah, basically solve the whole game! I think you're forgetting one conclusive piece of evidence that helped convince everyone later on (the number of bodies left inside the lab). Going from 'mukuro is dead' to 'this is mukuro who was actually junko' is such a leap in logic with the artificially limited pool of data they had available.
That's not what I said, all she had to do was go from "the body in the garden belongs to Mukuro" to "the body in the garden belongs to Junko" We don't need to solve the whole real/fake Junko thing right now, they just needed to point out that the body in the garden was the one that Monokuma diced in front of them earlier.
But that's the thing, I don't think she's an ass for taking the easy way out. There's no way she could accurately piece everything together under that time, even with the Monokuma file on hand. She definitely needed some time to herself to piece together all of the relevant information in the case. But she wasn't afforded that luxury AND was under an intense amount of pressure to boot (her life was on the line!), so it's definitely possible that she simply couldn't make the connection at the time. I couldn't (at first) and I had an omnipotent field of vision! She might be the Ultimate Detective, but she's also human.
You didn't need her to piece together everything for your behind to be saved, she literally just had to scratch the surface. All she had to say was "that body isn't Mukuro's, it's Junko's" and even that 100% wrong statement (but easily provable and kind of right) would have been enough to take the heat off of both Kyoko and Makoto and everyone else which would have lead into my "mistrial" example above. Obviously they wouldn't need to write the story exactly how I laid it out but I chose an easy path to get it right back on track with where chapter 6 starts off.
Edit: Also, for those saying she didn't have enough time to examine the body, you all realize she went up there, looked at the body, and had enough time to randomly look in the toolshed and see the wet tarp in there. She took her time, I'm sure she looked around the rest of the garden too. I know she didn't do a full autopsy in there but this wasn't just a quick glance at the body and then down to the trial she went.
They've never met Mukuro, they don't know if she wore fake nails, and the tattoo is still on her hand, which confirmed to them that it was Mukuro. All their assumptions leading up to this point is that people are what they are. Kyoko's discovery of the file in the headmaster's office does nothing to shake this. I really don't see how she could have theorized that this was actually 'Junko' in time.
That's the problem, right there
My argument is that she couldn't (at the time) make that connection. There's also the fact that she'd have to convince Byakuya, who was 100% convinced that the body belonged to Mukuru. And she can't exactly mistrial if Monokuma was absolutely set on killing her.
Assuming she actually did try prove that Mukuru was killed by someone else besides Makoto
Under these conditions:
-Byakuya would be absolutely convinced that it was her
-Hiro and Aoi would probably vote for her (given the evidence/lack of trust)
-Makoto wouldn't vote period
-Monokuma would cut the trial short (he intended to kill her)
She'd be signing her death warrant. Her only option for survival was throw Makoto under the bus.
The bolded is fine, this assumption wouldn't need to change. For all they need to care at the end of the 5th trial, everyone could be still assuming that Mukuro is the mastermind. Now I'm hazy here, except for Byakuya who probably recognized the tattoo immediately since he apparently remembers every little detail of the library at the Togami estate, had anybody else linked the tattoo to something that Mukuro would have had as a member of Fenrir? I don't believe so but I could be wrong. The tattoo isn't really a sticking point then because it could be waved off the same way they did it in the game, it must have been covered up with make-up. I don't think Byakuya would have raised much of a fuss about the tattoo in this circumstance since he hadn't seen Mukuro's file yet so he wouldn't know that she was a Fenrir agent, if anything he might comment on how he never would have imagined that Junko was a Fenrir agent.
Monokuma can't cut the trial with that allegation out there. Everyone would realize the implication that raises if the body was Junko's, the killer was Monokuma so who would everyone be able to vote for anyway? Once that is brought up, it would need to be settled before a vote could, realistically, take place. I don't see why Byakuya wouldn't entertain the notion, he can tell me what type of shoes the entire cast is wearing, I'm sure Kyoko could have asked him who had fake fingernails and he could have named Junko himself. Hiro, Aoi, and Toko don't matter at this point, they are doing whatever the big players are doing. If anything, that random allegation would have at least given Kyoko more time to think, I can't think of a logical way for Monokuma to force them to vote if the sentiment among the group is that Monokuma was the murderer.
And to the bolded, of course Makoto would vote, it's against the rules not to.
But Monokuma DID cut the trial with a lot of hanging things in the air, because that's precisely what he wanted to. Unlike the other trials, he waited until there was enough rope to hang either of the two thorns in his side before declaring it over(which he had never done before EVER) and then it was all over.
Would Kyoko had done things differently if she knew that Monokuma for the first time ever would actually end the trial early like he did? Maybe, but there's an equal chance she would have let the events play on, and dedicated herself further to catching the culprit in the act, only this time adding Makoto's murder to the crimes piled onto kuma. Of course, she probably would have, and they probably would have gotten to the end of that other trial, but without hope, well, everyone dies.
I mean, the bad ending was kind of a joke, sure, but it also showed definitively what would have happened if Makoto had stuck Kyoko to the wall like Monokuma wanted.
Wasn't the bio lab still locked up at this point too? Without the idea that the bodies were preserved(she could have been throwing them into the incinerator or having the plant eat them for all anyone knew), there's no way any of them would have made the leap in logic to accuse Junko.
Would Kyoko had done things differently if she knew that Monokuma for the first time ever would actually end the trial early like he did? Maybe, but there's an equal chance she would have let the events play on, and dedicated herself further to catching the culprit in the act, only this time adding Makoto's murder to the crimes piled onto kuma. Of course, she probably would have, and they probably would have gotten to the end of that other trial, but without hope, well, everyone dies.
I mean, the bad ending was kind of a joke, sure, but it also showed definitively what would have happened if Makoto had stuck Kyoko to the wall like Monokuma wanted.
Wasn't the bio lab still locked up at this point too? Without the idea that the bodies were preserved(she could have been throwing them into the incinerator or having the plant eat them for all anyone knew), there's no way any of them would have made the leap in logic to accuse Junko.
The entire point of the trial was to take out Kyoko, so he'd definitely cut the trial short while it was in his best interest. He was blatantly cheating remember?
The reason why I think that Byakuya wouldn't entertain the notion of Mukuru being Junko was because he does exactly that in the 6th case; he outright refuses to acknowledge the possibility of Junko being Mukuru:
And cmon, Byakuya might be intelligent but he's also short-sighted and uncooperative (at times). Makoto and Kyoko have to constantly beat concepts over his head until he accepts them.
Hina, Toko and Hiro DO matter because their votes are what's ultimately going to seal Kyoko's fight in your hypothetical scenario. I could see them voting for Kyoko out of fear for their lives or distrust without hard evidence (which would be hard to present since Monokuma was set on cutting the trial short) What could possibly make them suspect that Monokuma is the killer?
My problem with your scenario is that it's predicated on Kyoko keeping a cool head immediately figuring out that the body belongs to Junko.
Right, he cuts it short when Kyoko or Makoto are the prime suspects, he can't cut it short when he, himself, is the prime suspect which is how it would have been if Kyoko's brain was working during this trial.
You're confusing two different things I think. Byakuya wouldn't entertain that Makuto was Junko from the very beginning, in this scenario, you just need to get him to believe that the corpse on the ground was Junko's not Makuto's. Those are two totally different things.
Edit: And as I said, once you prove that the body on the ground was Junko's then Aoi, Hiro, and Toko would believe Monokuma was the killer because they WATCHED the death happen. And yeah, Kyoko keeps a cool head and solves most other things in the game right away too, its odd that she doesn't, thats my point.
Which again is his greatest weakness. For someone so smart and wanting to investigate, he has negative people skills, so wouldn't question others.
Kyoko wasn't in the right state of mind given the circumstances, so I don't blame her not coming to the right conclusion immediately.
This is the guy who didn't figure out that Junko and Mukuru were one in the same after the 6th investigation (when it was blatantly obvious that Junko = Mukuru due to the number of dead bodies not matching up with the number of murders + Mukuru and Fake!Junko having same measurements) convincing him that they were one and the same would be a tall order in a short amount of time.
And as I said, it's easier said than done! Especially one is under intense pressure and on a timer. What i'm trying to say is, if she fails to convince them then she's death. It's too great of a risk to take.
dakkumauji
Member
No one needs to convince anyone that they are one in the same, idk why you keep saying that. They just need to conivince them that the corpse on the ground isn't the one they think it is.
spindashing
Banned
I think I was a fan of Ishimaru after Oowada's death.
Those real bro tears, man.
Those real bro tears, man.
But they can't, because it is Mukuro. They've seen the tattoo. Monokuma will dispute any attempt to say otherwise. Discovering that she was once Junko hinges on evidence they don't have.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Taka became my favourite male character after Mondo died because he felt like my grieving buddy. Ishida helped fill the Mondo-sized void left in the cast too, ya dumbbutts.
And then the game ripped him away from me because it hates me T^T
And then the game ripped him away from me because it hates me T^T
There is no evidence that links that tattoo to Mukuro at this time, is there?
With his difficulty making friends, that moments hits me a bit more hard. He finally makes a friend... A really close one.. And then THAT. It really is tragic.
Fenrir, man. Byakuya and Makoto both see the student info page in Kyoko's room.
Taka's report sequence is awesome. Totally makes up for his presence in the story (or lack thereof...)
How?
The body had Mukuru's Fenrir tattoo. It would be difficult to prove that it didn't belong to her.
EDIT: Beaten by a split second. >: (
Now we are getting somewhere, I asked about this earlier but no one answered me. I thought we didnt have the Makuro-Fenrir-Tattoo link complete until we got the rest of the file in the pincipal's office.
Edit: Looked it up for clarity's sake. It doesn't look like Byakuya tells you about the tattoo connection to Fenrir so going into the trial only he would be privy to that knowledge. Bringing up that the body on the ground wasn't Mukuro's is still a logical conclusion but there would had to have been some evidence work once Byakuya revealed what the tattoo meant.
Wait, why is it switching between Mukuro and Junko?
Lightning Lord
Banned
I agree with this. He kind of gives a bad first impression since he immediately starts off yelling at Makoto, but the end of Chapter 2 and his report card really make him grow on you.
dakkumauji
Member
BronsonLee
Member
Bringing these back from yesterday:
Ohhh man, that would've been pretty damn bold. For a game that loves to subvert some tropes, offing the main char in the penultimate chapter is pretty slick stuff.
This was my thought too, but this one's actually (kinda) been done in a game before. I won't say which of course, but it felt like cheating since, like Makoto, we knew their thoughts. It was a stretch.
PS: Monokuma stopping the 5th trial way too early put a damper on anything any of the survivors could try. He set a trap, the trap went to the wrong person, so he ended it before it could go too awry.
Edit to add this:
Ohhh man, that would've been pretty damn bold. For a game that loves to subvert some tropes, offing the main char in the penultimate chapter is pretty slick stuff.
This was my thought too, but this one's actually (kinda) been done in a game before. I won't say which of course, but it felt like cheating since, like Makoto, we knew their thoughts. It was a stretch.
PS: Monokuma stopping the 5th trial way too early put a damper on anything any of the survivors could try. He set a trap, the trap went to the wrong person, so he ended it before it could go too awry.
Edit to add this:
Oh that is FUCKED UP
That was great
Executions are definitely one of my favoriite aspects of the game. I can't wait to see the DR2 ones
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