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DC Extended Universe |OT2| A League of xX-=DaMaGeD=-Xx Gentlemen
- Thread starter Penguin
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Naw the car chase scene comes out the Knightmare sequence.
That's not a show stopping action sequence, I mean, it's like 2 mins of punching, at most, and exciting it is not.
The chase was also the original script action beat (remember the knightmare was cut off by Terrio and reinserted by Snyder), but its direction could have been better. That was Snyder's first ever vehicle action beat wasn't it?
Well, at the root of it all, Ellis isn't wrong. The fight literally, and by literally I mean literally, ends because Bruce and Clark's mothers share the same first name. No amount of clamouring about misunderstanding vague subtext is going to change how sharp Batman pivoted from blood lust to instant sympathy, and the UC does nothing to fix that.
At the end of the day, most seemed to feel the pivot was too drastic and the reasoning too absurd to really buy into it. I know it worked for many people in this thread but seemingly not for most people who saw the movie.
Citation needed
Really? Is it really needed? Are we pretending BvS had a good audience reception and the Martha scene wasn't torn to bits every which way as a common complaint? Are we really going to entertain the notion that it wasn't a huge point of contention for just about everyone who disliked the movie?
It seems like a poor way to throw shade without acknowledging that there was more to it than that. It would be like if someone said the reason Stark is pro-Accords is because one lady was mean to him in a hallway. Do you know what I mean? I don't take issue with the Martha scenario not sitting well with people. I take issue with it being pushed as thoughtless or, as you said, too absurd. Love it or hate it Batman was depicted as having a very real moment of PTSD. No more ridiculous in its scenario than ex-soldiers who drop to the floor, terrified, when they hear a loud pop.
I wish more time had been spent on it though so it wasn't so easily dismissed both in narrative and reception.
BadAss2961
Member
Eh, the internet just needed a meme to make fun of the movie with. The point of it all somehow flew over their heads, and it was already too late by the time it was explained to them. It's like the MoS tornado but ten times more petty.
And I don't wanna hear about how they did understand it, and how it just made no sense or was executed terribly, because most of them still don't seem to get it.
Any way you chalk it up though, it wasn't executed very well. Like, you're right that the most frequent way it's criticized is an oversimplification, but so is how Bruce's PTSD is depicted.
I really do think it's the pivot that hangs people up. It's just too jarring and doesn't really address the concerns Bruce had to begin with. What's even more muddling is that Bruce mentions Clark's parents seconds before the Martha revelation. So did he think he was raised by kryptonians? Does he think he was adopted by human parents yet has no humanity for...reasons?
On top of it all, Snyder really, REALLY emphasized "Martha" way too much, to the point where I can't blame anyone for thinking the coincidence in their mother's names is why Batman doesn't kill Superman.
thehypocrite
Member
The only reason why people don't get the Martha scene and what it means for Batman is because they paid no attention to the previous emotional beats in the movie. Heck the first scene it's about Martha dying and the last words uttered by Thomas Wayne.
The critic response was overwhelmingly negative way before the movie became a meme. And before you start talking about some unspoken plot among the enthusiast press to sabotage the career of Zack Snyder, remember that BvS also topped the majority of most anticipated lists for 2016, a fact you frequently referred to during the lead up to the movie.
Frankly speaking, I think you just want an excuse to blame anything but the actual movie for its reception.
I mean, one the central tenants of the character of Batman over the years has been how hung up on his parents' murder he is. This has been explained to us many times in official adaptations and a shitload of batman parodies have harped on this as well.
Knowing what we know, Bruce's initial reaction isn't that much of a stretch or really that surprising. He has a very visceral reaction to Clark saying his mother's name, and he might've even thought that Clark was taunting him/fucking with him at first (since Bruce knows by then that Clark knows his identity). Clark actually saying the name "Martha" is kinda contrived, but eh.
The real problem is that they should've talked more after this so that Batman's change of heart would seem less abrupt. Have clark briefly explain that Martha is his adoptive mother, she taught him what it meant to be human, the only reason he's here in Gotham is because she's a hostage and he didn't want to fight bruce, etc. Then have Bruce agree to help Clark save his mother, while also acknowledge that this turn of events doesn't make them friends, this isn't over, yada yada.
Knowing what we know, Bruce's initial reaction isn't that much of a stretch or really that surprising. He has a very visceral reaction to Clark saying his mother's name, and he might've even thought that Clark was taunting him/fucking with him at first (since Bruce knows by then that Clark knows his identity). Clark actually saying the name "Martha" is kinda contrived, but eh.
The real problem is that they should've talked more after this so that Batman's change of heart would seem less abrupt. Have clark briefly explain that Martha is his adoptive mother, she taught him what it meant to be human, the only reason he's here in Gotham is because she's a hostage and he didn't want to fight bruce, etc. Then have Bruce agree to help Clark save his mother, while also acknowledge that this turn of events doesn't make them friends, this isn't over, yada yada.
BadAss2961
Member
Yeah, it's not like it was brought up out of the blue. People questioned why Snyder would be doing the Wayne murders again at this point... Turns out it was tied to the finish.
And even without all that, Batman is notorious for being the dead parents, can't get over it guy. Everyone knows that's his spot, often to a fault. I would've understood the scene had it been the only part I saw, but the seed was planted for it to work. Those who missed it the first time should catch it on a rewatch.
I'm not even talking about reception or any of that other stuff you brought up though, just "Martha." Once BvS was a movie to be piled on, that just became the standout scene to mock. Even if it made sense in context.
But who cares, that shit is dying down. The Ultimate Cut is getting mostly favorable reception, with an uphill climb. A little time has done the movie well.
So I just finished watching the Ultimate Edition for the first time.
I think I said way back when that the original TC was a few scenes away from being a masterpiece, and, to be perfectly honest, this cut of the movie finishes the job. I started it up not expecting to be able to sit through three straight hours of movie which is something I rarely do these days, but I went and did it because BvS simply doesn't let up. It follows up one of the best openings ever in a superhero movie with an equally intriguing story about a cynical world coming to grips with the existence of a higher being.
I can't say much of anything that hasn't already been said except that I had to watch it again with a tinge of sadness because it's very likely that we will never get a movie like this for a very long time. BvS is almost unapologetically dark and extremely pensive about the genre's machinations. I think that Deborah Snyder was right when she said that people in general don't like seeing their heroes get deconstructed because that's basically what the movie does.
Batman isn't a hero. He's an anti-hero who has cracked under the pressure of a dangerous job.
Superman doesn't smile. It's because his existence scares as many people as it inspires. And that's a problem.
The world they inhabit is supposed to be close to ours which is why you have ESPN, CNN, and all those personalities making cameos in the movie. It's why the movie is peppered with people of all races (diversity is HUGE in this movie) because for a lot of people that is the world we know. I like how the Gotham scenes emphasized the ghetto and the Metropolis scenes emphasized high society. Snyder gets a lot of credit for creating pretty visuals but I feel he gets overlooked on how those visuals add to the thematic elements. They're more than just pretty, they feel authentic and that goes a long way to lending credibility to any film.
Whatever. I can go on and on about this movie. I really can but I'm sick of gushing. I just know that BvS now stands with TDK as the best in class and a candidate for GOAT. It's Snyder's best movie. He finally surpassed Watchmen.
I think I said way back when that the original TC was a few scenes away from being a masterpiece, and, to be perfectly honest, this cut of the movie finishes the job. I started it up not expecting to be able to sit through three straight hours of movie which is something I rarely do these days, but I went and did it because BvS simply doesn't let up. It follows up one of the best openings ever in a superhero movie with an equally intriguing story about a cynical world coming to grips with the existence of a higher being.
I can't say much of anything that hasn't already been said except that I had to watch it again with a tinge of sadness because it's very likely that we will never get a movie like this for a very long time. BvS is almost unapologetically dark and extremely pensive about the genre's machinations. I think that Deborah Snyder was right when she said that people in general don't like seeing their heroes get deconstructed because that's basically what the movie does.
Batman isn't a hero. He's an anti-hero who has cracked under the pressure of a dangerous job.
Superman doesn't smile. It's because his existence scares as many people as it inspires. And that's a problem.
The world they inhabit is supposed to be close to ours which is why you have ESPN, CNN, and all those personalities making cameos in the movie. It's why the movie is peppered with people of all races (diversity is HUGE in this movie) because for a lot of people that is the world we know. I like how the Gotham scenes emphasized the ghetto and the Metropolis scenes emphasized high society. Snyder gets a lot of credit for creating pretty visuals but I feel he gets overlooked on how those visuals add to the thematic elements. They're more than just pretty, they feel authentic and that goes a long way to lending credibility to any film.
Whatever. I can go on and on about this movie. I really can but I'm sick of gushing. I just know that BvS now stands with TDK as the best in class and a candidate for GOAT. It's Snyder's best movie. He finally surpassed Watchmen.
Agreed , it served no purpose whatsoever if bruce was going to track it anyway.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
Watched Mad Max Fury Road again and I think Immortan Joe would be a nice DC villain. He's like Nolan's Bane but more menacing imo.
A little detail unearthed from the special features from someone on reddit
A lot of people wondered why Lex would create something he couldn't control, many countered that the "blood of my blood" line implied that Lex thought he could. Knowing what the original line is, it's safe to say the latter was right after all, and Lex believed that he could control Doomsday.
A lot of people wondered why Lex would create something he couldn't control, many countered that the "blood of my blood" line implied that Lex thought he could. Knowing what the original line is, it's safe to say the latter was right after all, and Lex believed that he could control Doomsday.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
Nice find. This explains a lot.
GringoSuave89
Banned
He was going to be Martian Manhunter in George Miller's Justce League.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
Yeah, I know. That was some great casting there. I heard the script for that film wasn't great, but under Miller's hand who knows what would happen.
The discussion this movie Sparks is something. To those who think it's worst than cancer to those who think it's the second coming.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
I agree with most of what you've said; I still prefer Watchmen to BvS tho.
and I prefer Sucker Punch to Watchmen. =)
I hope Justice League will have a scene like this.
Slowmo and in one take.
so good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwDtEIJUMso
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
Depends on mood, I sometimes put Sucker Punch (extended cut) over Man of Steel or even 300.
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
I have to say, the new Batman theme has really grown on me. His action theme is very Mad Max like, while his 'emotional' (?) theme is very dark. Really digging it now.
Supes theme still the best though.
Supes theme still the best though.
b&jy77VjiKn$#F
Member
I wish they would release a version with full 16:9 ratio for IMAX footages. It's so weird watching those scenes cropped :/
One thing I find interesting about the DCEU Superman is he probably knows the least about his heritage than any other version of Superman. He doesn't have a fortress and the ship that probably should have been his fortress is Government property and was purged of Jor El.
I really wonder how Snyder plans to bring Supes back. I'm assuming it's going to be a loose adaption of the scenes from Justice League Vol.1 and War where Dessad tries to brainwash Clark.
I really wonder how Snyder plans to bring Supes back. I'm assuming it's going to be a loose adaption of the scenes from Justice League Vol.1 and War where Dessad tries to brainwash Clark.
I like the idea I heard from Collider where the League has to get help from Luthor to bring him back. Some sort of variation of how he brought Zod back (without the mutation obviously).
Man of Steel is good for a comfy mood.
Haha yeah. I ventured into the OT thread and one of the latest post had a guy claiming it was an absolute abomination of a film. I wish I could say I understood where he was coming from but I honestly don't, but hey, opinions. That's how they work.
It taints the universe for me. That, and him blowing away the guys with the Batwing before saving Martha.
Just senseless. Batman kills, and it isn't a dramatic decision, it's for the spectacle of seeing explosions. Heck, when Superman killed Zod in MOS it was treated appropriately. There's no way back from that for DCEU Batman, for me - 'men are still good' isn't good enough.
All the inclusion of the car chase did was make Superman seem like an idiot for letting a bunch of bad guys with a rocket launcher get away.
How about we wait for his subsequent appareances to clear things up. So far the character hasn't been shown to have a code to betray. He probably did, but so far it's just us shoehorning our preconceived notions in the narrative. Yeah the no kill rule is a Batman staple but Znyder bat as long as we know had no problem with it.
He probably thought Batman was the instigator.
The no-kill rule is a core part of Batman as a character. Even when he kills, he's defined by the fact that he broke his rule. It isn't the formative years of these characters anymore; Batman doesn't kill, and Superman flies. Those weren't true at the inception of those characters, but it is now and has been for decades.
I'm not saying that Snyder can't do what he wants with the character, just that it's awful.
Eh, it's not that awful. The initial shock is big, but once you see past that Batman becomes a hard badass type of character like Han Solo or Wolverine. It's ok, specially for a one shot where he was the angagonist.
I'd have less of an issue if it was a one shot, but it isn't. It's the Batman of the DC cinematic universe.
I'd also have less of a problem with Superman and Lex Luthor if this was an isolated film.
It absolutely doesn't matter who the instigator was, as it does not make any sense for Superman not to at least track down and ask why these dudes are firing off military grade weapons in a civilian population center. Especially when the MO for Batman has been to brutally attack CRIMINALS.
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
They still got Nolan, so I guess there is that.
I'm not expecting much from Nolan to be honest.
Now if he did something Mememto related again I might be interested.
What did he mean by this?
Member
I have less problem with the chase scene than the 1st confrontation scene.
The dialogue is stiff and near cringeworthy, the lightning makes Batman look silly/chubby, the disconnect of any of what they're talking about with what just happened (ex. The burning bodies of Batman's victims, the smoldering wreckages of numerous vehicles, that one guy's severed face still spinning on the Batmobile's front wheel, etc.)
I really hate it.
The dialogue is stiff and near cringeworthy, the lightning makes Batman look silly/chubby, the disconnect of any of what they're talking about with what just happened (ex. The burning bodies of Batman's victims, the smoldering wreckages of numerous vehicles, that one guy's severed face still spinning on the Batmobile's front wheel, etc.)
I really hate it.
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
We will never see that. Can you imagine the reaction to that? That is why it was cut out completely.
What's wrong with it? From what I understood it was just a quick scene where he returns to Smallville before meeting Lex and can't find her. Tries to listen and too much noise or something. I thought people said it was in
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
Because he hears the cries for help too and obviously can't help all those people too. It's just too dark and even though a totally legit thing to think about, people rather not see Superman ignore victims. So yeah.
I think he was supposed to be looking out for her but whenever he tried he kept hearing people screaming out for him.
I suppose. I don't think it needed it, I was just wondering why I didn't see it. If it's not in the UC how did we know of the scene?
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Lord Virgin
Unconfirmed Member
Snyder talked about it an in interview iirc. Not needed what exactly?
That makes sense. I was wondering why I didn't see that scene in the UC. I've always had it in the back of my mind that Superman has to ignore certain things if he wants to live a decent life so I wouldn't have had a problem with such a scene. He can't be everywhere.
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