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[Kittonwy]

Are you against a minimum wage?

No, I'm for a minimum wage that will allow the manufacturing sector to be more competitive. If it costs a company more money to make a single shirt in America compared to China, minimum wage isn't going to save you, you're going to lose those jobs, and most likely people would rather be working for less than not working at all. You can either up the productivity per worker (e.g. an american making 5 shirts instead of a chinese working making only 1 shirt for the same amount of time to justify the higher wage) or have the worker get paid less. Now you can obviously try to impose some sort of content restriction or tariff on foreign product but you end up raising the prices of goods. I wish we can all shit money out of our asses but it doesn't work that way.

 

[Nerevar]

Not sure how complicated you can make it appear so that you can honestly spin an increase in tax rate to result in more economic growth.

An increase in government spending certainly creates jobs, and that is certainly more measurable than the "voodoo economics" of tax cuts = economic growth. Federal infrastructure and defense spending alone account for thousands of jobs, and that doesn't even count the jobs that are saved via social welfare programs that ensure people in the service industry still have jobs via indirect support.

The real question is finding the appropriate balance between tax rate and government spending.

oh boy

andherewego.gif

The ignore list is a wonderful thing.

 

[slidewinder]

I do not think it is a wild guess to assume you have not training in Micro Economics.

You're wrong, and your assumptions are absurd, moronic, and shown to be so by all available evidence.

 

[scorcho]

My argument is for cutting everything, including repealing the national healthcare plan, not just military spending, the reality is that if you only target military spending you WILL ending up with unemployed soldiers and workers building military equipments/vehicles who will never be able to find the same level of quality employment and benefits, and then you will end up having to take care of those people.

Who's to say the war machine is "useless"? It's a way for America to influence and control world policy.

your point against just cutting defense spending is so generalized that it can be used for almost any type of government spending that has a quantifiable benefit.

and, for what it's worth, most of the talk revolving around trimming our defense spending has more to do with money allocated to outside contractors on poorly managed projects*, not actual soldiers.

* this encompasses nearly all contracted work.

No, I'm for a minimum wage that will allow the manufacturing sector to be more competitive. If it costs a company more money to make a shirt in America compared to China, minimum wage isn't going to save you, you're going to lose those jobs, and most likely people would rather be working for less than not working at all.

where does cost of living factor into this? it seems almost elementary to point out the vast purchasing power difference for an individual in the US compared to China.

 

[MC Safety]

I think they need to fix their spending habits before they charge more taxes.

It's always more taxes and never sensible spending.

 

[avatar299]

I'm taking a wild guess to assume you "have not training" in Macro Economics?

And let me guess, you got your knowledge of macro economics from Sim City?

 

[PantherLotus]

When you don't have an argument, post :lol .

THAT'S JUST YOUR TYPICAL ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-SUBURBAN, ANTI-LIBERAL, ANTI-EVERYTHING, AND LETS FACE IT, ANTI WHITE PEOPLE response!

 

[Rentahamster]

I meant to pay them, but TurboTax made an error.

Surely, if it worked for Geithner, it'll work for us regular folks too!

 

[JGS]

I'd prefer those jobs be used for something a little more utilitarian, like infrastructure, education, and public transportation, for example

You can certainly cut the miltary budget without cutting the number of troops.

In fact, I can't see a realistic way a voluntary army can cut soldiers while mainitaining a constant recruitment agenda.

If the military cuts contracts and so on, that's fuine since the companies that contract with the government should face the same risk as every other private corporation that has to hustle and sell to stay in business.

 

[avatar299]

THAT'S JUST YOUR TYPICAL ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-SUBURBAN, ANTI-LIBERAL, ANTI-EVERYTHING, AND LETS FACE IT, ANTI WHITE PEOPLE response!

Last I checked I wasn't the one running around insulting people because they disagreed, than pulled arguments either out of my ass or out of a videogame. You're a joke.

 

[scorcho]

And let me guess, you got your knowledge of macro economics from Sim City?

that's just your anti-urban, anti-educated, pro-caucasian bias showing through.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Sorry if this is a repeat from the hundreds of posts skimmed through, but: I don't know about other states, but in Indiana we're supposed to pay taxes on online purchases. However, since you just have to fill in a blank on the tax form it's easy for most people to get away with claiming little or nothing. So I wouldn't view something to solidify online taxes as a new tax, but fraud prevention.

 

[GaimeGuy]

You can certainly cut the miltary budget without cutting the number of troops.

In fact, I can't see a realistic way a voluntary army can cut soldiers while mainitaining a constant recruitment agenda.

If the military cuts contracts and so on, that's fuine since the companies that contract with the government should face the same risk as every other private corporation that has to hustle and sell to stay in business.

those are the jobs I was kind of referring to.

 

[JoeBoy101]

Surely, if it worked for Geithner, it'll work for us regular folks too!

Sorry.

 

[Gallbaro]

I'm taking a wild guess to assume you "have not training" in Macro Economics?

I forced my way through Micro but love Macro. But in terms of a company responding an effect wage decrease in its most important and most mobile employees it is easily it is very clear what the agents acting in that environment would have to do.

As for Macro, as I said no nation can expect to collect more than 20% of its GDP in tax revenue. Economies do not grow past that point.

 

[avatar299]

where does cost of living factor into this?

Shouldn't cost of living be the workers concern? Not everyone is the same. The guy that turns his head away from a poor paying job could be perfect for a guy in a different situation.

 

[Kittonwy]

I'd prefer those jobs be used for something a little more utilitarian, like infrastructure, education, and public transportation, for example

A worker working at Boeing building military jets isn't suddenly going to be skilled in building bridges, you don't necessarily have the capacity to absorb all of those people into the public sector, it will take money and resources just to retrain them all. It's not about what you would prefer, if you drastically cut military spending you'll have a bunch of unemployed people that you have to take care of.

 

[avatar299]

that's just your anti-urban, anti-educated, pro-caucasian bias showing through.

No it's my pro-suburban, anti-CIV bias

 

[GaimeGuy]

The ignore list is a wonderful thing.

I don't get it. What'd I do? :lol

 

[gcubed]

A worker working at Boeing building military jets isn't suddenly going to be skilled in building bridges, you don't necessarily have the capacity to absorb all of those people into the public sector, it will take money and resources just to retrain them all. It's not about what you would prefer, if you drastically cut military spending you'll have a bunch of unemployed people that you have to take care of.

and if you cut entitlement programs and state budgets you will have a bunch of unemployed people you will have to take care of. So basically you are saying screw the workers everything should be cut except military... to protect the workers. This doesn't cause your brain to explode when you think about it?

 

[JGS]

those are the jobs I was kind of referring to.

OK

I agree with that... well sort of.

I think the private sector usually can absorb the jobs just fine without adding bloat to the government unless it's needed (probably not).

 

[Rentahamster]

Sorry.

Hmm, I guess that means I'll just have to postpone my plans to evade taxes at least until I win the election for "Senator of Alpha Quadrant".

 

[Gallbaro]

and if you cut entitlement programs and state budgets you will have a bunch of unemployed people you will have to take care of. So basically you are saying screw the workers everything should be cut except military... to protect the workers. This doesn't cause your brain to explode when you think about it?

So the conclusion from the Blue side is, "Yes we are wasting a lot of money, on stuff we do not need, but it is better to screw over the next generation rather than ourselves"

 

[scorcho]

Shouldn't cost of living be the workers concern? Not everyone is the same. The guy that turns his head away from a poor paying job could be perfect for a guy in a different situation.

so are we arguing now against the idea of a minimum wage, or the (idiotic) notion that we could actually match manufacturing wages in China to compete in the global market?

So the conclusion from the Blue side is, "Yes we are wasting a lot of money, on stuff we do not need, but it is better to screw over the next generation rather than ourselves"

think that answer is more targeted to Kittowny's specific argument as to why defense spending is more important than other forms of government spending.

 

[PantherLotus]

Last I checked I wasn't the one running around insulting people because they disagreed, than pulled arguments either out of my ass or out of a videogame. You're a joke.

Who've I insulted? I know you're running with the videogame thing, but I was at least attempting to show that even the simplest of strategy games show the effect of satellite powers. It was a poor example for a simpleton, I'll admit.

I think I hurt your feelings by pointing out that poor white southerners love to politically fight for causes which help the wealthiest Americans. I apologize for insinuating that you were a southerner.

 

[Nerevar]

I don't get it. What'd I do? :lol

Not you, it was more a suggestion than a commentary.

 

[Kittonwy]

your point against just cutting defense spending is so generalized that it can be used for almost any type of government spending that has a quantifiable benefit.

and, for what it's worth, most of the talk revolving around trimming our defense spending has more to do with money allocated to outside contractors on poorly managed projects*, not actual soldiers.

* this encompasses nearly all contracted work.


where does cost of living factor into this? it seems almost elementary to point out the vast purchasing power difference for an individual in the US compared to China.

I'm not against cutting defense spending, I am against specifically targetting defense spending for massive cuts, they need to bring all spending under control.

Cost of living varies extremely widely in China depending on where you live, in large metropolitan cities like Beijing and Shanghai people have a lot of disposable income, at the end of the day you have to ask yourself whether you want to compete for those jobs or not, because China has a large segment of their population that are able to work for beans and America does not.

 

[GaimeGuy]

So the conclusion from the Blue side is, "Yes we are wasting a lot of money, on stuff we do not need, but it is better to screw over the next generation rather than ourselves"

On the contrary. I see the right focussing on smaller areas of the budget to reform, while ignoring the giant elephants in the room.

 

[PantherLotus]

I forced my way through Micro but love Macro. But in terms of a company responding an effect wage decrease in its most important and most mobile employees it is easily it is very clear what the agents acting in that environment would have to do.

As for Macro, as I said no nation can expect to collect more than 20% of its GDP in tax revenue. Economies do not grow past that point.

I loved macro too!

 

[Windu]

This would piss me off, but thankfully the money is going to great people that are extremely competent and efficient in what they do. Think of it as an investment into our bright futures.

Paying more taxes is the most patriotic thing you can do. God Bless You All.

:lol

 

[badcrumble]

I'm not against cutting defense spending, I am against specifically targetting defense spending for massive cuts, they need to bring all spending under control.

Cost of living varies extremely widely in China depending on where you live, in large metropolitan cities like Beijing and Shanghai people have a lot of disposable income, at the end of the day you have to ask yourself whether you want to compete for those jobs or not, because China has a large segment of their population that are able to work for beans and America does not.

Those workers live and are treated like utter shit and that's not something for the USA to aspire to. Nor is the catastrophically huge divide between rich and poor that exists in China and is the direct result of their unwillingness to stick up for their workers as anything but man-hours on a spreadsheet.

 

[Yaweee]

On the contrary. I see the right focussing on smaller areas of the budget to reform, while ignoring the giant elephants in the room.

Yes, I think that is the far more accurate assessment. They are being completely unrealistic with regards to the budget and focusing on trivial shit.

 

[gcubed]

So the conclusion from the Blue side is, "Yes we are wasting a lot of money, on stuff we do not need, but it is better to screw over the next generation rather than ourselves"

two other people got it. Defense isn't the only thing that needs to get cut, but arguing against cutting defense while wanting to cut everything else is idiotic. Things need to get cleaned up all over the place, but you have a giant clusterfuck known as the defense budget that needs to be reigned in as well.

Unfortunately there is no way to do any of this, because of the shithole called the senate. If the president had any kind of power it would take one to throw himself on the sword and cut shit that people will get upset about and most likely lose in 4 years... unfortunately there is no way the senate would ever allow it

 

[GaimeGuy]

I'm not against cutting defense spending, I am against specifically targetting defense spending for massive cuts, they need to bring all spending under control.

Cost of living varies extremely widely in China depending on where you live, in large metropolitan cities like Beijing and Shanghai people have a lot of disposable income, at the end of the day you have to ask yourself whether you want to compete for those jobs or not, because China has a large segment of their population that are able to work for beans and America does not.

what's wrong with specifically targetting defense spending? It's huge, doesn't have to do with your average joe paying the pills like social security and medicare/medicaid , and we have no need to be spending as much as we do given the position we're in and the allies we have.

It's the easiest big issue to tackle IMO from an emotional standpoint

 

[Kittonwy]

and if you cut entitlement programs and state budgets you will have a bunch of unemployed people you will have to take care of. So basically you are saying screw the workers everything should be cut except military... to protect the workers. This doesn't cause your brain to explode when you think about it?

Everything has to be cut, including the military and especially entitlement programs, but you can't simply drastically cut military spending without having a major impact on that manufacturing sector.

 

[badcrumble]

There should be cuts elsewhere too, but the idea that defense spending sees precisely the same amount of waste as other budgets is intellectually dishonest. Which budget do you think has more waste and corruption in it - the one that gets cut and reformed periodically (social spending in general) or the one that has been an untouchable golden calf for decades (defense spending)? When the Secretary of Defense is calling for his own budget to be cut, you know the situation is pretty bad.

 

[slidewinder]

I forced my way through Micro but love Macro. But in terms of a company responding an effect wage decrease in its most important and most mobile employees it is easily it is very clear what the agents acting in that environment would have to do.

Pour tens of millions of dollars into the CEO's 90% tax rate, 10% actually ending up in his pocket, when the company's got hundreds or thousands of employees for which the skim is a third that or even less?? What a competitive advantage.

There is no kind of theory, no kind of analysis, no kind of REASONING based upon anything that even resembles evidence that leads to anything like your conclusion, period.

None except for the absurdly idiotic idea that the CEO's compensation (ALONE, mind you) is somehow inviolable, and that all else (as YOU YOURSELF said by way of explaining your "reasoning") must therefore conform itself to this dumbass fantasy. And not just THIS CEO's compensation, but ALL of theirs. All of them across pretty much basically all industries at this point in time.

And you want to take some kind of thinkin' man's high ground with bullshit like that. You're an idiot. You guys are ALWAYS idiots. You are always idiots and you are always wrong. You are doing nothing but carrying water for people who are going to drink it specifically so that they can piss on you. Period. Idiot.

 

[MisterAnderson]

Keep taxes far away from my Steam purchases you bastards.

 

[Kittonwy]

what's wrong with specifically targetting defense spending? It's huge, doesn't have to do with your average joe paying the pills like social security and medicare/medicaid , and we have no need to be spending as much as we do given the position we're in and the allies we have.

Because you'll have a whole bunch of unemployed people who used to work manufacturing jobs for companies like Boeing who will have a hard time getting similar employment, and those ARE your average joes who are working and paying taxes to support entitlement programs like social security and medicare/medicaid. I am for cutting across the board, what I'm not for is targetting a specific sector like military manufacturing like they're the enemy.

Who are your "allies"? Canada?

 

[avatar299]

Who've I insulted? I know you're running with the videogame thing, but I was at least attempting to show that even the simplest of strategy games show the effect of satellite powers. It was a poor example for a simpleton, I'll admit.

I think I hurt your feelings by pointing out that poor white southerners love to politically fight for causes which help the wealthiest Americans. I apologize for insinuating that you were a southerner.

Should I selectively quote bits or just a big post about the crap I read while you "debated" with Gaborn.

And you are still standing by a videogame? Seriously question Panther, if you calculated the cold war with the same rules of civ4 and it's current AI, over/under how many times would Russia have won?

Hurt my feelings, no. I'm not a white southerner. I'm just tired of your typical bullshit, It's nothing but democratic rhetoric and mean spirited generalizations from you with more than a tinge of hate.

People who disagree with you are not automatically less intelligent. They just disagree

 

[scorcho]

Cost of living varies extremely widely in China depending on where you live, in large metropolitan cities like Beijing and Shanghai people have a lot of disposable income, at the end of the day you have to ask yourself whether you want to compete for those jobs or not, because China has a large segment of their population that are able to work for beans and America does not.

we can't compete with China's manufacturing ability/output.

if anything, China may already be hitting the apex of their manufacturing output as production costs and wages rise; manufacturers are already moving their operations to places like Vietnam to keep costs down.

 

[Kittonwy]

Those workers live and are treated like utter shit and that's not something for the USA to aspire to. Nor is the catastrophically huge divide between rich and poor that exists in China and is the direct result of their unwillingness to stick up for their workers as anything but man-hours on a spreadsheet.

The reality is that you either want those jobs and are willing to compete for those jobs through either higher productivity or lower wages or you don't want those jobs. Unless you can impose a mandate on China that disallow them to have workers treated like crap which you can't, you can either choose to compete or watch the jobs get oursourced.

 

[badcrumble]

The reality is that you either want those jobs and are willing to compete for those jobs through either higher productivity or lower wages or you don't want those jobs. Unless you can impose a mandate on China that disallow them to have workers treated like crap which you can't, you can either choose to compete or watch the jobs get oursourced.

So people who don't want to work sixteen hour days on slave wages are just crybabies? Ok.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Who are your "allies"? Canada?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

How many of those countries are legitimate enemies of the US? How many are allies?

My point is we're not exactly alone out there, so why are we acting like we are by outspending the rest of the world?

 

[Gallbaro]

So people who don't want to work sixteen hour days on slave wages are just crybabies? Ok.

He is saying that until 3rd world wage standards catch up, you have no choice.


Also we have no right to do anything but let them catch up.

 

[boo7z]

The only reason an internet tax is necessary is for two reasons:

(1) Most people knowingly (or unknowingly) violate their own state's sales & use tax law. The consumer is supposed to pay a use tax on taxable purchases when sales tax is not collected by the seller (Amazon, mail order, etc.)

(2) Use tax policy is poorly communicated by the state and is difficult, if not impossible, to enforce.

 

[PantherLotus]

Should I selectively quote bits or just a big post about the crap I read while you "debated" with Gaborn.

And you are still standing by a videogame? Seriously question Panther, if you calculated the cold war with the same rules of civ4 and it's current AI, over/under how many times would Russia have won?

Hurt my feelings, no. I'm not a white southerner. I'm just tired of your typical bullshit, It's nothing but democratic rhetoric and mean spirited generalizations from you with more than a tinge of hate.

People who disagree with you are not automatically less intelligent. They just disagree

Hey now, stop assuming that because you are continually, endlessly, and tiringly proven wrong again and again and again that it means you are less intelligent. Feel free to point out what my "democratic rhetoric" is, though. Feel free to point out what my "mean spirited generalizations with more than a tinge of hate" are. I love it when people try to find what isn't there.

 

[Kittonwy]

So people who don't want to work sixteen hour days on slave wages are just crybabies? Ok.

No, but if you want to compete for manufacturing jobs you might want to consider either lowering the minimum wage or find a way for those workers to increase productivity.

 

[GaimeGuy]

No, but if you want to compete for manufacturing jobs you might want to consider either lowering the minimum wage or find a way for those workers to increase productivity.

jeez, kittonwy :\

 

[scorcho]

jeez, kittonwy :\

or, like we currently do, turn a blind eye to migrant workers from Mexico.