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Denis Dyack in 1up yours. NeoGAF is "hurting society," justifies having it shut down
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evilromero
Member
ED is actually a brilliant game.Bust Nak said:Hang on, I thought GAF loved Eternal Darkness, I even picked up a bargin bin copy 6 months ago from the recommentation! I was looking forward to playing it too
PorkFryRice
Member
chico said:
Denis is righ afterall. Neogaf just influenced a no buy.
What the fuck does the quality of online forums have to do with Too Human? NeoGAF could be an absolute cesspool, but that won't make Too Human any better or worse of a game.
Dyack, grow the fuck up and take some responsibility for your work. If Too Human flops, then it's because it wasn't a good game or because it wasn't marketed well enough, not because of messageboard gifs.
In the last Dyack controversy thread, I said this whole debacle was getting borderline pathetic. It has now crossed that line into total lunacy. Denis, you are only doing your game, your coworkers, and yourself a complete disservice with this ridiculousness.
Dyack, grow the fuck up and take some responsibility for your work. If Too Human flops, then it's because it wasn't a good game or because it wasn't marketed well enough, not because of messageboard gifs.
In the last Dyack controversy thread, I said this whole debacle was getting borderline pathetic. It has now crossed that line into total lunacy. Denis, you are only doing your game, your coworkers, and yourself a complete disservice with this ridiculousness.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
I think Denis Dyack is a character. I mean he is a nice guy and definitely in the realm of good developers. But also a bit of a rambler. But you know there is nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about what you do. Some people can claim it is a reason you should hate the guy. It's silly to me. But forum critics and keyboard warriors thrive off of this kind of stuff.
I'll be honest in saying that I never participate in the whole NEOGAF wolfpack attacks. Can't say I remember that happening in this forum 11 years ago, but that is also a long time ago. But I definitely have better things to do in my life than "roll on the floor laughing at Denis Dyack antics" or constantly trash the guy. I waste enough of my life just refreshing information on the internet.
But I think this is something that is happening in a lot of forums. The power of anonymity is only going to get stronger.
Just my two cents.
I'll be honest in saying that I never participate in the whole NEOGAF wolfpack attacks. Can't say I remember that happening in this forum 11 years ago, but that is also a long time ago. But I definitely have better things to do in my life than "roll on the floor laughing at Denis Dyack antics" or constantly trash the guy. I waste enough of my life just refreshing information on the internet.
But I think this is something that is happening in a lot of forums. The power of anonymity is only going to get stronger.
Just my two cents.
flipping_heck
Member
I dont know who Denis Dyack is but everytime i hear that name, it conjures up a basketball player in my mind for some reason :lol :lol
Mithos Yggdrasill
Banned
Crateman said:
Nice post.
dollartaco
Member
Dyack has himself to blame for the amount of venom directed at him and his game. Plenty of other games are made fun of here and yet we don't see devs come in to set people straight with bullshit for/against challenges.
This started with E3 and his complaints that people were commenting on early builds which was understandable. The problem with that, though, is that he's gone out of his way to provide a preview build of his game a single goddamned month before its release. Is the terrible animation going to change? Is the preview build magically half the retail's length? Is he just fucking with us? No, and he can't have his cake and eat it, too.
He tells us to just play the game. Waiting for the demo, Denis. He tells us that he and SK are unfairly criticized. Sorry, you're a relatively big-name studio. You don't get magazine covers and big preview coverage from magazines otherwise. He whines about attacks against him on GAF. Hey, you know what a good idea would be to prevent that? DON'T GO TO AN INTERNET FORUM TO POST MEANINGLESS CHALLENGES.
I was REALLY anticipating Too Human and would have been firmly listed in the FOR group. The stunts Dyack has pulled, however, make it pretty clear that I'm not going to give him my support. It has nothing to do with GAF's opinion or some other outlet's echo of it. It has everything to do with Dyack not knowing his role. Maybe next time he'll hire some PR, because preaching doesn't sell video games.
This started with E3 and his complaints that people were commenting on early builds which was understandable. The problem with that, though, is that he's gone out of his way to provide a preview build of his game a single goddamned month before its release. Is the terrible animation going to change? Is the preview build magically half the retail's length? Is he just fucking with us? No, and he can't have his cake and eat it, too.
He tells us to just play the game. Waiting for the demo, Denis. He tells us that he and SK are unfairly criticized. Sorry, you're a relatively big-name studio. You don't get magazine covers and big preview coverage from magazines otherwise. He whines about attacks against him on GAF. Hey, you know what a good idea would be to prevent that? DON'T GO TO AN INTERNET FORUM TO POST MEANINGLESS CHALLENGES.
I was REALLY anticipating Too Human and would have been firmly listed in the FOR group. The stunts Dyack has pulled, however, make it pretty clear that I'm not going to give him my support. It has nothing to do with GAF's opinion or some other outlet's echo of it. It has everything to do with Dyack not knowing his role. Maybe next time he'll hire some PR, because preaching doesn't sell video games.
Nexus Zero
Member
Dyack comes off as an absolute douche in this episode. Jeff Bell deserved everything he had coming to him, he should have known better. Props to Garnet for railing his retarded suggestions, I don't normally care for the guy but he seems like the only one in there without his head up Dyack's arse.
MaddenNFL64
Member
Man... I think both sides have fucked around too much. Kinda was hoping this shit wouldn't go this far. Hell, I still want good things for the guys at SK.
But fuck man... Denis you continuing to be a dumbshit is making it hard to support your company. You need to take a reallllly long fucking break after Too Human ships.
Also, the horde mentality against this guy at GAF is pretty overbearing. But after Denis responded like this, I can tell it's going to get worse. Like I said, I think both sides have fueled this to no end.
But fuck man... Denis you continuing to be a dumbshit is making it hard to support your company. You need to take a reallllly long fucking break after Too Human ships.
Also, the horde mentality against this guy at GAF is pretty overbearing. But after Denis responded like this, I can tell it's going to get worse. Like I said, I think both sides have fueled this to no end.
dollartaco
Member
Shikamaru Ninja said:
That's great in a vacuum, but Dyack came over here to stir shit up. There are plenty of other industry types who post here and get warm receptions. Dyack COULD have been one of them, but his time here has been spent catering to the same fucking people who he thinks shouldn't be allowed to post here.
Maybe if he'd started thread directed at me--a wait-and-see, hopeful type--he wouldn't have this problem. I can't be alone in not wanting to buy the game now because of his approach. It's as if we have a Socrates to Derek Smart's Plato.
GAF is to Videogames as
TMZ is to Hollywood.
It's entertaining, just because Tom Cruise is a kook dosen't make Minority Report awful. One can say that TMZ is 'hurting society' by obssessing on other peoples lives and what-not. It's kinda the same thing.
This isn't always the case in GAF. Some intelligent, worth reading discussion does happen in here (never about Too Human though).
TMZ is to Hollywood.
It's entertaining, just because Tom Cruise is a kook dosen't make Minority Report awful. One can say that TMZ is 'hurting society' by obssessing on other peoples lives and what-not. It's kinda the same thing.
This isn't always the case in GAF. Some intelligent, worth reading discussion does happen in here (never about Too Human though).
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Shikamaru Ninja said:
There's other ways of being enthusiastic with your job without rambling about random or things you get annoyed of.
"Previews are bad!!! my game is too awesome to be judged by stupid users or previews!"
/Dramatization
I don't care about Dennis, and I'm ok people get banned with weight offenses, but you can't expect say the things he say, without getting rambled, control yourself, think twice, or ....something, but calling internet forums or NeoGaf itself a entity who hurts the society, is way beyond of just being enthusiastic.
And obviously that dosn't gonna stop me (or any other person, I hope) in criticize images or videos I see. I'm sorry that the art of your game is horreundous IMO, I'm sorry that the animations are horrible IMO, and I even more sorry that when I see gameplay or your game or any previews it dosn't get me any bit of interest or good vibrations, whatever you want to call it, maybe when I got to play the game, it will be a great experience even with bad cinematics,art and animations, when that won't stop me to post my thought before that moment.
Holy shit, Dennis needs to grow up. He's acting like any fanboy for any game does, except he's a professional.
Dennis, I can understand that you do not like people pre-judging your game, but let it go. This happens with every game. You just happened to have not shown anything that gets the majority of people excited.
Dennis, I can understand that you do not like people pre-judging your game, but let it go. This happens with every game. You just happened to have not shown anything that gets the majority of people excited.
You know, I think I saw another poster say something similiar 20 pages back or so.. but it merits being said again:
Mr Dyack: I'm a big fan of RPG type games: Diablo, WoW, Baldur's Gate. Though I actually prefer shooters (COD4 is teh 0wNs3x) Too Human looks interesting enough that maybe I could just leave 2 claymores at Chen's, and go out and pick the game up.
It certainly appears to have the type of gameplay I find compelling.
Killing shit cooperatively with your friends, getting phat lewts, levelling up your guy... Action game, RPG elements....Too Human hits on all of those things, so I was planning on trying it out.
Over the past year your commentary on the gaming community, the press, the fans - we are all one and the same, Mr Dyack - has really turned me off your company. You are an ambassador - whether you realize it or not - for every person in SK who has worked on Too Human. Your actions and words directly impact the public perception of your company, and public opinion directly influences consumer confidence. Right now, you are influencing a lot of avid gamers to not buy your game.
I'll spell it out: You are slinging shit at the very people for whom you are trying to make a game, and hoping will buy your game. The tough part about being a celebrity is that the general public gets to sling shit at you all the time, but you're not allowed to throw it back - unless it's cheeky and smart. Then you win more fans. If SK has a PR department, or agency, you may want to start filtering your comments through them. Although it's probably way passed too late, now.
Mr Dyack: I'm a big fan of RPG type games: Diablo, WoW, Baldur's Gate. Though I actually prefer shooters (COD4 is teh 0wNs3x) Too Human looks interesting enough that maybe I could just leave 2 claymores at Chen's, and go out and pick the game up.
It certainly appears to have the type of gameplay I find compelling.
Killing shit cooperatively with your friends, getting phat lewts, levelling up your guy... Action game, RPG elements....Too Human hits on all of those things, so I was planning on trying it out.
Over the past year your commentary on the gaming community, the press, the fans - we are all one and the same, Mr Dyack - has really turned me off your company. You are an ambassador - whether you realize it or not - for every person in SK who has worked on Too Human. Your actions and words directly impact the public perception of your company, and public opinion directly influences consumer confidence. Right now, you are influencing a lot of avid gamers to not buy your game.
I'll spell it out: You are slinging shit at the very people for whom you are trying to make a game, and hoping will buy your game. The tough part about being a celebrity is that the general public gets to sling shit at you all the time, but you're not allowed to throw it back - unless it's cheeky and smart. Then you win more fans. If SK has a PR department, or agency, you may want to start filtering your comments through them. Although it's probably way passed too late, now.
Fallout-NL
Member
Tell me more.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
All I will say is that I fucking called it on the whole "Scientism angle". The initial premise of the "bet" - 90% this or 50% that - was all fucking bullshit, which is why I suggested a qualitative measure of "game quality" rather than one based on meaningless statistics.
Of course, I think THAT message will be lost and we'll be back to the "I can't believe Game X got 9 but Game Y got 7" idiocy that most people resort to.
Of course, I think THAT message will be lost and we'll be back to the "I can't believe Game X got 9 but Game Y got 7" idiocy that most people resort to.
After listening I agreed with some points Denis was saying however much of it I believe was over thought, twisted or completely off base.
I am really looking forward to Too Human but I think Denis needs to leave things be and talk a step back and follow his own words and let his game speak for itself.
I have been a member of GAF for years now and its the best place to discuss gaming on the internet by far, it can be a really great place but it also can be a pit and due to its size its can really be amplified when a bunch of vocal negative posters really get their teeth into a subject.
I think there has been some failings in community management and lack of accountability (due to the sheer size of posters here) but nowhere near the level expressed in the podcast.
My experience (after avoiding the trolls) here has been a great one and GAF has turned into a one stop place for Game News, indepth discussion and shared experiences of gaming.
I totally agree with most of EvilLores points he has stated in the thread and believe in fairness he should get a turn to put across his side in this argument in a follow up if 1up is going to be a mediator.
As for NeoGAF itself well you really have to understand its demographic and then you can gauge if it is a good barometer for a games hype, preview and reception. All the guys who have posted here from Bungie, InfitinyWard, Insomniac, Capcom, Gaz, Mario, Che etc.. all I believe have been able to use GAF in this manner as well as be a valuable part of the community.
And with released information and previews the community here has every right to discuss and post about if it appeals to them just as much as this media would be used to help influence a buying decision for them.
PS: Well done Garnett in this discussion, really came out as the person to being things back to reality in parts and always asking the points I wanted to hear about.
I am really looking forward to Too Human but I think Denis needs to leave things be and talk a step back and follow his own words and let his game speak for itself.
I have been a member of GAF for years now and its the best place to discuss gaming on the internet by far, it can be a really great place but it also can be a pit and due to its size its can really be amplified when a bunch of vocal negative posters really get their teeth into a subject.
I think there has been some failings in community management and lack of accountability (due to the sheer size of posters here) but nowhere near the level expressed in the podcast.
My experience (after avoiding the trolls) here has been a great one and GAF has turned into a one stop place for Game News, indepth discussion and shared experiences of gaming.
I totally agree with most of EvilLores points he has stated in the thread and believe in fairness he should get a turn to put across his side in this argument in a follow up if 1up is going to be a mediator.
As for NeoGAF itself well you really have to understand its demographic and then you can gauge if it is a good barometer for a games hype, preview and reception. All the guys who have posted here from Bungie, InfitinyWard, Insomniac, Capcom, Gaz, Mario, Che etc.. all I believe have been able to use GAF in this manner as well as be a valuable part of the community.
And with released information and previews the community here has every right to discuss and post about if it appeals to them just as much as this media would be used to help influence a buying decision for them.
PS: Well done Garnett in this discussion, really came out as the person to being things back to reality in parts and always asking the points I wanted to hear about.
GAF I LOVE YOU
i hate bees
Member
They really should keep this guy on a tighter leash, not to say that he's necessarily a bad developer but his PR skills rank up there with Derek Smart and George Broussard. Too Human may never have been perfect, but he does himself and his company no favours by attacking the people who'll ultimately decide the fate of Too Human once it hits the shelves, the bloody consumers.
RubberJohnny
Banned
I'm glad my Wired thread was successful.
Too Human looks bad, real bad..animations, gameplay and graphics wise, IMO.
As for this guy, i feel sorry for him, how would you like it if your game was trashed like that..especially since you worked your arse off on it.
you'd flame back...your just not in his shoes so none of you would understand.
that being said, he shouldn't bother with haters, just make sure the game plays good and that will silence them.
but whatever, i'm out...**** you all.
As for this guy, i feel sorry for him, how would you like it if your game was trashed like that..especially since you worked your arse off on it.
you'd flame back...your just not in his shoes so none of you would understand.
that being said, he shouldn't bother with haters, just make sure the game plays good and that will silence them.
but whatever, i'm out...**** you all.
strikeselect
You like me, you really really like me!
I feel sorry for the guys who work at Silicon Knights and have to put up with this douchebag.
Denis, think of this (neogaf) as a singles bar, there are people here that you're trying to pick up. But if you go up to them and talk to them about how much money you make, name drop and in general make an ass of yourself trying to sell yourself/your game, of course they're going to laugh at you! No matter how nice a guy you might be. Does that mean that you can ask for this singles bar to be shut down? I don't think so.
Fallout-NL
Member
Azih said:
It's a pretty awful sensation though.
Sigh... I liked Eternal Darkness.
I agree companies have to be moral. I'd argue there is no evidence of that in the industry at the moment, generally, but that's just me.
It still seems like most things come down to "don't be a jerk".
Social responsiblity is derived from that -- don't be a jerk.
Ignore folks in need of help? Don't be a jerk - help 'em out.
Do you employ people? Don't be a jerk - take care of 'em.
I agree with the concept that it's better to have a company in which all your employees are full-time employees. I like Dyack's attempt at having a much better corporate culture because of that, and I rather believe his company might be a better place to work at because of that, especially when he mentions putting employee benefits and rights over generating larger profits.
I still don't see what's so "awful" about Metacritic/number scores. People still break games down as "great, good, ok, lousy", and most numbers can be read out via that. Trying to compare two games by percentile points is insane, but large breakdowns are rather valid. If you have two games with "average scores" of 80 versus 60, then the 60 scored game is generally reviewed poorly by most people. Trying to compare a 90 and 88 is insane, but large brackets should be fine.
Maybe I'm nuts, but I don't see how game forums have that much sway on the "mass market". Forums, especially gamer tech ones like NeoGAF and others, might be more important because of U.S. game designers and media swapping messages back and forth, and that COULD lead to "group think" for media folks... and, well, that could be a bad thing. Drat. A semivalid point, sort of.
Yeah, the internet allows folks to be jerks to each other. The anonymous nature of the internet allows folks to be jerks to strangers. I agree that that's a bad thing. I wouldn't mind if forums (even GAF) were a bit more stringent in making folks be less of jerks, but I don't see how "not being a jerk" is the same as "not being critical of frivilous consumer media".
I'm not sure I want to listen to any more of this. It's dull.
Edit: Okay, I will agree that there is a certain level of "HAHAHA!" and cruelty that does exist on GAF at times. Now, granted, that usually happens because someone is an idiot, but it might make for a nicer forum if folks were less cruel and dealt with problems in a more positive way. Then again, on the other hand, folks might leave GAF for a bit due to being an idiot on the internet, and you don't really "lose" in real world life by leaving GAF.
I agree companies have to be moral. I'd argue there is no evidence of that in the industry at the moment, generally, but that's just me.
It still seems like most things come down to "don't be a jerk".
Social responsiblity is derived from that -- don't be a jerk.
Ignore folks in need of help? Don't be a jerk - help 'em out.
Do you employ people? Don't be a jerk - take care of 'em.
I agree with the concept that it's better to have a company in which all your employees are full-time employees. I like Dyack's attempt at having a much better corporate culture because of that, and I rather believe his company might be a better place to work at because of that, especially when he mentions putting employee benefits and rights over generating larger profits.
I still don't see what's so "awful" about Metacritic/number scores. People still break games down as "great, good, ok, lousy", and most numbers can be read out via that. Trying to compare two games by percentile points is insane, but large breakdowns are rather valid. If you have two games with "average scores" of 80 versus 60, then the 60 scored game is generally reviewed poorly by most people. Trying to compare a 90 and 88 is insane, but large brackets should be fine.
Maybe I'm nuts, but I don't see how game forums have that much sway on the "mass market". Forums, especially gamer tech ones like NeoGAF and others, might be more important because of U.S. game designers and media swapping messages back and forth, and that COULD lead to "group think" for media folks... and, well, that could be a bad thing. Drat. A semivalid point, sort of.
Yeah, the internet allows folks to be jerks to each other. The anonymous nature of the internet allows folks to be jerks to strangers. I agree that that's a bad thing. I wouldn't mind if forums (even GAF) were a bit more stringent in making folks be less of jerks, but I don't see how "not being a jerk" is the same as "not being critical of frivilous consumer media".
I'm not sure I want to listen to any more of this. It's dull.
Edit: Okay, I will agree that there is a certain level of "HAHAHA!" and cruelty that does exist on GAF at times. Now, granted, that usually happens because someone is an idiot, but it might make for a nicer forum if folks were less cruel and dealt with problems in a more positive way. Then again, on the other hand, folks might leave GAF for a bit due to being an idiot on the internet, and you don't really "lose" in real world life by leaving GAF.
Cerrius said:
very true. I found it hilarious after all this time there was a PR person on the show, which STILL couldn't control him with his batshit insane talk about science , the moon and stars and instead added some shit about some girl commiting suicede because of some message board.
MS should of kept a tight leash on this guy, since it is THEIR money he is burning away.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I hope most of you are not basing your kneejerk opinion strictly on the news posting?
Bearillusion
Banned
Denis Dyack meet Jeff Minter. Game of frogger anyone?
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Dyackis right, this place is hell in net form
Cerrius said:
I actually said that after the last podcast where he was talking press + review code. Incessant, opinionated without having real substance. The only reason why he was bitchin the last time was because SK released a shitty demo with massive framerate issues:
this preview build had a bug and doesn't run smoothly. The previous build was perfect. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
...
blame blame blame blame everyone else.
Why put that build up and not show the "better" prior build? Just lame excuses and blame appropriation. He could have ensured that the guys he had issues with his game, gotten good code. If the demo was well recieved, would he have complained about the press+preview code? Now post his own ridiculous "too human vs gaf" thread, he's moaning about something else.
The guy is a douche.
dollartaco
Member
CassidyIzABeast said:
Then why would he come here? Oh, right, because he's trying to save GAF.
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