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[Cartman86]

Oh god I just typed like a page of point by point responses to this whole Dyack thing, and after writing agreements and disagreements I thought to myself. Does it all really matter to us? To me? To the industry? Probably not. Does it matter to the person being hated on (Dyack)? Yes for sure. These are message boards, and Dyack vs. Forums Users is between them.

Creating this huge social experiment and going on 1UP Yours is just so weird. Bringing this whole thing to this high level of exposure is just kind of fucked up. Forums are forums and people do need to look at what they type, but don't expect it. Walk away when someone does something stupid.

Thats not to say the whole metacritic and forums posts -> blogs -> 1up news stuff isn't interesting and should be brought up, but I think this was maybe the wrong way to do it, and its something that I feel has no answer... Oh god I just wrote another paragraph and deleted it. We are on a forum, let 1up and IGN deal with journalism issues.

In the end does a couple hundred people on a gaming forum dissing on your game really do as much damage to your product, as you striking back every year at each criticism with a hodge podge of ideas from recently read fiction? Too Human would have possibly had quite a different image if Dyack hadn't spoken out against previews way back with Mark McDonald. What if I didn't know this bit of info? What if at this very moment of me typing this I didn't know Dyack had spoken before? Could it change my opinion? It very easily could and probably would. What if I hated loot gathering games? What if i was raised by fucking wolves? Question after question, possibility after possibility. Dyack can't take my life out of the picture, but he can take his. E3 was just one of the things that started this unstoppable train of events, and I've read quite a few books that read just like that.


So basically what i'm saying is that the age of the internet has created this miscommunication like Dyack says, but I think rational people know the difference between talking with people in person or on the net. Don't take things so seriously. End of story.


PS: I have loved every single SK game they have released. No prior hate

 

[Vorador]

did he really trackdown Kittowny?

What i'm most amazed it's than he complained about personal information being discovered in NeoGAF, but he admits he tried to track down a member.

 

[PuppetMaster]

Just listened to the whole thing

Garnett respect +5

Shane respect -5, can't believe he was defending his insane view. And I am usually a fan of Shane.


Denis respect ... LOL! SK management need to get some lawyers and get him out of their company.

 

[Barrett2]

Holy hell, what is this man doing? Why would you go out of your way like that to sabatoge your own game by railing against a message board?

His argument about shutting down GAF is so nonsensical, the man is either wildly disingenuous or a complete idiot. His lawyers / co-workers need to put a muzzle on him before he does any more horrible PR damage to his company. Sweet Jesus....

 

[McBradders]

Finished listening. Finally.

Honestly, I'm not sure that Dyack should have been allowed to use 1UpYours as a soap box to bash the internet, and specifically GAF.

Saying stuff like "GAF is ruining society" is crap. Doling out his perceptions of GAF and the posters here, without rebuttal I might add, is crap.

If 1UP was really looking to do this properly, they would have brought in a GAF representative because, clearly, a lot of what Dyack said specifically about GAF was misinformed.

Using Kittonwy as an example was incredibly bad form. Apologising on air was reasonably classy, but at the same time he did nothing to hide who he was talking about other than to exclude the name. The incident is oft-quoted and pretty famous on GAF, probably a little wider than that too and, as has been said before, came accross as completely hypocritical given the crux of his point.

I guess whether this viral marketing shit works will be decided when the NPD's hit. While my opinion of the game hasn't changed at all, my opinion of Dyack has. For the worse.

 

[EMBee99]

I am being completely serious here, but Denis is clearly mentally "not right." There's a reason large outfits generally gag "the guys in the back room" from talking directly to the public. A publicly traded company can lose millions on one poorly worded comment alone. Denis has launched a poorly thought out campaign (lucky SK is not public).

I've never seen a developer build up so much animosity and ill will toward a game since Romero with Daikatana. Denis, if you're reading this, take my advice and disappear until launch. There's nothing more that can be done here other than further hurting the brand name. Is pissing the last six years of your life's work away on a petty internet argument worth it?

I don't think he's insane or what have you, but I think he's trying to emulate other industry folks that have transcended their games and become personalities unto themselves (Jaffe, Itagaki, Cliffy B). He's tried it before after Twin Snakes, comparing himself to Kojima.

 

[Nolan.]

I think i'll leave this thread alone now because it's only giving him more attention. However I wanted to ask one more thing. If Shane is so outraged by metacritic and scoring. As in his mentioning ''When I was a kid I just played games but now it's all like wo you played that but it's only a 7''. Or something to that effect anyway. Why do you then review games and give them scores, why.?

 

[MalevolentPanda]

I think the problem is that he's just very stupid. I mean he's arrogant and offensive too, don't get me wrong, but stupidity is the core problem.

I remember when he was doing that thing about the one console future and opened by saying 'whenever I talk about this everyone always agrees with me and all of you will too' before coming out with inane, schoolboy arguments and nothing more ('it's just the same as NASCAR!'). It was clear within a few moments that all these people who had 'agreed' with him in the past can only have done so to make him shut up.

The only game I've played of his was Eternal Darkness. I enjoyed it a lot, but every time I see or hear something Denis has said it makes me want him to fail. He might think people are just being nasty on the internet because forums are evil but the truth of the matter is that he's extremely unlikable, and that is reflected in how people respond to him.

 

[tahrikmili]

I think i'll leave this thread alone now because it's only giving him more attention. However I wanted to ask one more thing. If Shane is so outraged by metacritic and scoring. As in his mentioning ''When I was a kid I just played games but now it's all like wo you played that but it's only a 7''. Or something to that effect anyway. Why do you then review games and give them scores, why.?

The answer is: Because they never score something below 8? Because, you know, everything is worth playing

Spoiler

with the right incentive

.

 

[GameGamer]

Creating this huge social experiment and going on 1UP Yours is just so weird. Bringing this whole thing to this high level of exposure is just kind of fucked up. Forums are forums and people do need to look at what they type, but don't expect it. Walk away when someone does something stupid.

The game is going to release soon.

The pressure must be huge.

Right now any exposure is free exposure for the project.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

A GAF wide "we're not dignifying this with a response" reaction would have been gold.

 

[legend166]

Putting aside the fact that Dyack is mentally unstable, I've got a point about the preview thing:

What does he expect Kohler to do when they send him the final review copy? Play the entire game again, just so he can see the changes, which will be very, very miniscule? Would be an immense waste of time.

You can't send preview code which contains 100% of your game and expect press to not review it.

Now, I'm all for press getting code earlier so they don't have to rush out a review, ala GTA 4. But this isn't what happened here.

Also, respect for Garnett. Disrespect for Shane. No change for Skip and Kollar. You guys just seem non-confrontational, so you kept quiet. That's cool, I can relate.

 

[Victrix]

What i'm most amazed it's than he complained about personal information being discovered in NeoGAF, but he admits he tried to track down a member.

wh... what?

I'm too afraid to listen, but that's just... creepy

 

[RpgN]

What's going on here? I can't really follow.

Some members bashing Too Human and Dyack gets angry? Is that all?

 

[Darkpen]

I'm aggravated by these sorts of responses. Any time a high profile dev posts here you'll see at least one person telling him to go finish the game. Now, this might hypothetically be, ahem, slightly more appropriate when discussing Dyack and the state of Too Human, but game developers have personal lives and should not badgered about discarding what little free time they have in favor of working on the game more. It's not a binary decision between working on your game and posting on GAF, so please stop.

well yeah, that's true, and I agree and apologize.

But man, its just that the game's been in development for so long, you know? I want to see it, but instead I'm reading about him trolling GAF.

 

[Doc Evils]

wh... what?

I'm too afraid to listen, but that's just... creepy

No, a Grade A lunatic.

 

[RubberJohnny]

Fucking hell, I've never known someone to fit so many strawman arguments and inaccuracies into a single sentence as Dyack.

His game was badly recieved at an industry conference, so he said the conference, 'didn't serve its purpose'.
His game was badly received in previews, so he wants to shut down previews.
His game was badly received on NeoGAF, so he wants to shut down NeoGAF.

I'm sure having something you've worked hard on get badly received is devastating, but there are loads of developers on here and everywhere that take it with good grace.

Denis Dyack is reaching Derek Smart levels of insanity, he claims to see the issues behind everything, except for his own crusade to shut down any centre of negativity or criticism. Is this better for the industry, or society in general, or just those trying to peddle bad products attempting to get around structures set up to inform people?

 

[sneaky77]

Putting aside the fact that Dyack is mentally unstable, I've got a point about the preview thing:

What does he expect Kohler to do when they send him the final review copy? Play the entire game again, just so he can see the changes, which will be very, very miniscule? Would be an immense waste of time..

Well.. is his job to play thru the review copy and see if things have been fixed.

 

[gofreak]

A GAF wide "we're not dignifying this with a response" reaction would have been gold.

I still think a ban on Dyack/SK-related talk should be enforced, at least temporarily. If Dyack dislikes the forum, then lets remove him entirely from it.

I honestly think he's a bit of a loose cannon, and who knows what stunt he might pull next. I've seen other boards where entities have either taken or threatened legal action, for example, where discussion of that entity has been banned for the board's own protection.

 

[Barrett2]

Fucking hell, I've never known someone to fit so many strawman arguments and inaccuracies into a single sentence as Dyack.

His game was badly recieved at an industry conference, so he said the conference, 'didn't serve its purpose'.
His game was badly received in previews, so he wants to shut down previews.
His game was badly received on NeoGAF, so he wants to shut down NeoGAF.

I'm sure having something you've worked hard on get badly received is devastating, but there are loads of developers on here and everywhere that take it with good grace.

Denis Dyack is reaching Derek Smart levels of insanity, he claims to see the issues behind everything, except for his own crusade to shut down any centre of negativity.

The degree of sheer nonsense to which he is arguing against GAF is probably evidence of how much pressure SK is under. It makes me wonder about the financial health of the company. He sounds like a very desperate man.

 

[Mato]

This is ego talk. His egoism is clearly hurt by all the fat jokes. Rightfully so, but his taking this the wrong way and most importanly he seems to be burdening his company with his own insecurities.

I would say however that some points about the neogaf moderation are interesting.

 

[Bojanglez]

The best thing to do is just ignore the guy (although the fact that I am even posting that statement in this thread is a bit hypocritical).

I feel a bit sorry for the other guys at SK, I dread to think of the kind of shit he comes out with in project meetings, he seems so influenced by the latest book he has read, let's hope he doesn't read Mein Kampf anytime soon.

 

[Bojanglez]

I still think a ban on Dyack/SK-related talk should be enforced, at least temporarily. If Dyack dislikes the forum, then lets remove him entirely from it.

Yeah but that would give him something else to rant about.: ""look at how they supress free speech!"

 

[Monkaii]

(Ive actually spent half of my day listening and reading into this whole ordeal..)

I genuinely hope for a reaction from Denis on EviLore's post. Which will make for a more interesting turn than most of the responses from the 1up crew; only points for Garnett.
It is quite irresponsible for such a public figure [Dyack] to speak negatively about his own products user base. If we take his role -in society?- out of the equation then one can at least give him credit for designing and believing this whole theory ( based on previous works ), no matter if you agree with it or not. Some interesting points are made, followed by some hypocrite remarks, and so forth.

As stated before; according to Dyack was his 'social experiment' completely designed with the knowledge of the resulting negative responses and backlash. He explicitly knew that -GAF in this case- would not only rip the game apart, but would also attack him as person. This allows him to prove not only his own personal theory, but also generates buzz and hype for Too Human. It even discredits the credibility of the collective opinions on GAF; which is certainly also in his advantage.

Some here might think of him as a -and I quote- twat, but from the perspective of a non-GAFer he might as well sound as well-informed and completely hitting the nail on the head.

Then we can ask.. From a commercial point of view; is this really work of a delusional man? or is it pure genius?

 

[gofreak]

Yeah but that would give him something else to rant about.: ""look at how they supress free speech!"

He clearly doesn't like us talking about him and his products anyway.

 

[legend166]

Well.. is his job to play thru the review copy and see if things have been fixed.

If that's the case, what's the point of sending out a complete copy of your game two months before launch?

Just wait a month, finish it up, and send out a review copy.

If I was Kohler, I wouldn't be completely playing through a 1 month later version of the game just to see if they fixed a few bugs and glitches. Especially if those bugs and glitches didn't impact on his play through of the game the first time around.

 

[Cartman86]

Well.. is his job to play thru the review copy and see if things have been fixed.

true, but Kohler never gave the game a score, and just gave his honest impressions of a preview build.

Not directed at you sneaky
The facts are there, and I think most people take em as they are. A couple hundred people see it as a 100% sign that the game is going to suck. Will it? Will the final build be that much different? This is the internet and we all come here to talk and give our opinions on stuff, so i will. No it probably won't be that much different based on previous games. For good or bad? Well right now you'll have to base that on the previews themselves. Go read em and see how its shaping up.

 

[Ranger X]

Fucking hell, I've never known someone to fit so many strawman arguments and inaccuracies into a single sentence as Dyack.

His game was badly recieved at an industry conference, so he said the conference, 'didn't serve its purpose'.
His game was badly received in previews, so he wants to shut down previews.
His game was badly received on NeoGAF, so he wants to shut down NeoGAF.

I'm sure having something you've worked hard on get badly received is devastating, but there are loads of developers on here and everywhere that take it with good grace.

Denis Dyack is reaching Derek Smart levels of insanity, he claims to see the issues behind everything, except for his own crusade to shut down any centre of negativity or criticism. Is this better for the industry, or society in general, or just those trying to peddle bad products attempting to get around structures set up to inform people?

That was my post

 

[Bojanglez]

He clearly doesn't like us talking about him and his products anyway.

Yeah true, but he is not beyond a change of thought if it backs up his whatever his current gripe is.

 

[goomba]

I think this may just be all be viral marketing , people are going to want to check out Too human for themselves because of all this controversy ( so much for the game standing on its own).

 

[Doc Evils]

Listening to the podcast, it sounds like Denis Dyack has lost his mind in the books. All he needs to do is go on the street and with a megaphone.

 

[WrikaWrek]

This guy has lost it.

 

[Danne-Danger]

So what I learned from that was:

Dyack is a real person and he is insane.

Really, Garnett was on the right track, we are the niche market nowadays. We can't change the industry or "affect society" in the way that Dyack described. When you talk to someone, anyone that's outside of GAF (and such) they have absolutely no idea what's going on in the industry, even if they are hardcore gamers. If we (the hive mind ) have a negative reaction to a game that's not even going to put a dent in its sales or general perception, even if news outlets decide to pick up on it (since they too have a very limited influence).

Really Dyack, take a look at Kane and Lynch to see what impact we have. Several news sites took "Gerstmangate" and put it on the front page (not to mention the game have a Metacritic score of ~65), NeoGAF banned every reverence to the game and the company who made it and a soaring hatred was running among the members and what happened? The game sold a million copies.

You brought this shit on yourself Dyack and no amount of you bitching about the situation that you've put yourself in is going to change that.

 

[DCharlie]

I'll attribute the misrepresentation of what happened in the thread to the heat of conversation

now hold on a minute.

i've banged on about this a few times, and i'm not even on the pro-Dyack side right now, but ....

the bet you suggested was that Too Human outscores the best _reviewed_ game SK had produced to prove that it was their best game. It would not be based on a consensus of GAFfers, it would be based on the 200x consensus of video game reviewers (who , in GAF opinion, basically rate just below door mice, slightly above cockroaches....)

This ignores the general GAF consensus that Eternal Darkness is a steaming pile of horse manure.

People asked you a few times to clarify the bet and take into account GAF opinion - you might have responded, but i didn't see it.

There seemed to be a -knowing- disconnect here , and whilst Dyack has gone off the crazy chart since then, the point of him calling people out that his game would be rubbish, then a bet emerging asking for 90% to prove it was better than eternal darkness was a willful disconnect from the usual GAF sensibilities and was, to put it mildly, a crap bet.

As i've said, if we take the review average as a FACTUAL representation of how good ED is, then it's better than some of the most revered games on GAF, and we all -know- there was something deeply -wrong- with the ED reviews.

I dunno, i thought it was pretty hypocritical of GAF as a whole - we slag of reviewers, tear them to shreds, 1000+ responses because we don't agree with a score...

... then we use the same effective source as the watermark for a games quality?

POPPYCOCK!

Dyack might have lost his marbles since, but i think the response to his bet challenge showed GAF up a bit by the choice of response. If confidence in Too Human's bombage is a 90% review bet, then in amongst the muddle there is some semblence of sanity in what DD went for.... a sliver.... a suggestion ... a wiff....

 

[POWERSPHERE]

Dyack is just feeding Gaf. Drama like this is what fuels us :lol

Y'see, GAF has fallen for it. He wins... Shhhh. Lets all just Shhhhh and stop fuelling his sad lil fire.

 

[SpokkX]

I agree about the social responsibility and some of the things he says. Sometimes this forum goes overboard with personal attacks (Dyack is fat or Itagakis face or whatever)

HOWEVER

This forum usually hold a higher class than that and expressing ones opionions is kind of the point of forums. Besides gaf is always fastest with news/rumors

 

[sneaky77]

true, but Kohler never gave the game a score, and just gave his honest impressions of a preview build.

Not directed at you sneaky
The facts are there, and I think most people take em as they are. A couple hundred people see it as a 100% sign that the game is going to suck. Will it? Will the final build be that much different? This is the internet and we all come here to talk and give our opinions on stuff, so i will. No it probably won't be that much different based on previous games. For good or bad? Well right now you'll have to base that on the previews themselves. Go read em and see how its shaping up.

I think people want this game to suck for reasons that have nothing to do with the game. I am still personally looking for the demo to try it out myself.

 

[EMBee99]

You know, for a game that releases in about a month or so, there has been very little coverage outside of Dyack's insanity.

POPPYCOCK!

On a side note, this word needs to make a comeback.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I've summed it up for those confused...

 

[gofreak]

Dyack might have lost his marbles since, but i think the response to his bet challenge showed GAF up a bit by the choice of response. If confidence in Too Human's bombage is a 90% review bet, then in amongst the muddle there is some semblence of sanity in what DD went for.... a sliver.... a suggestion ... a wiff....

I'm sort of entirely..lost..at this point in the whole saga, but wasn't it the case that Dyack wanted to make a bet about how rubbish the game wouldn't be (i.e. that it would do better than Haze or Lair), and that Evilore simply wanted the bet to be about the game being as good as Dyack says instead? It wasn't that anything less than 90% was 'terrible', just not the great amazing better-than-anything-we've-ever-made-before type game Denis was touting. Dyack wanted 'GAF' (whatever that is) to engage in a bet based on how terrible 'GAF' thought/thinks TH is, Evilore was simply turning the tables on him and asking him for a bet based on how GOOD Dyack thinks his game is.

I thought that was entirely fair, but maybe I'm missing something.

(Using metacritic..sure..I see the flaws in that, but if you're gonna have a bet about something, you need a very clear measure of the terms)

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Just listened to it and read evilore's post and there is no chance in hell I'm purchasing this game anymore.

I do not want ANYTHING to do with this man getting his paycheck. I have never ever seen such nonsensical and malicious behavior from a toddler, let alone a grown man.

I believe in supporting the industry and purchasing quite a few games a year based on "trust", that is, I read about them and buy them right when they come out. It's a way for me to form my own opinions on the game and support the devs.

Shitting all over your consumer's face is a no-no.

 

[Salazar]

I am entertained and edified and amused - and I haven't even listened to the podcast or totally read this thread yet. To think some Gaffer thought my Gilliam comparison was unfair. At least Terry wastes talent as well as other people's money. Denis is making Werner Herzog seem well-adjusted.

 

[Apocryphon]

Dyack think's he's Peter Molyneux.

 

[Tobor]

What really sucks about all this is that I'm still excited about the game. I can't imagine even an official thread will be free of this bullshit. Where am I going to go to discuss builds?

 

[Flavius]

Yeah but that would give him something else to rant about.: ""look at how they supress free speech!"

Yeah, that seems to be another one of his core problems.

You know, the fact that Evilore and the mods are not government or an agency of the government.

I can see the headlines now: "Dyack Suing NeoGAF For Violating Civil Rights"

 

[Worm_Buffet]

Why is Shane being so sycophantic?

Does he pity Dyack and his maternal instincts are kicking in?

 

[DCharlie]

Using metacritic..sure..I see the flaws in that, but if you're gonna have a bet about something, you need a very clear measure of the terms

as we said at the time - use gaf, everyone who plays the game says what they think.

i think even that was a safe bet!!!

 

[probune]

The one thing I have to agree with is when they made comments about the NeoGAF moderation. It doesn't always seem to follow its own rules. I've seen people banned for nothing at all and other people not banned for stuff that's even worse. Just seems like it's whatever the mods feel like that day, I guess.

You can't really complain and demand that it be changed because this is a private forum and the administrators and moderators reserve the right to completely ignore your comments and ban you, but I just felt that I should talk about the one thing I actually agreed with in this whole last hour of the 1up yours show.

 

[Doc Evils]

How much we betting Denis would strangle Kittonwy if he came to the launch party?

 

[Flavius]

The one thing I have to agree with is when they made comments about the NeoGAF moderation. It doesn't always seem to follow its own rules. I've seen people banned for nothing at all and other people not banned for stuff that's even worse. Just seems like it's whatever the mods feel like that day, I guess.

To be fair, that is every private, non-business-sponsored forum ever.

You'll always have the oddball, douchebag mod or two that powertrip and go all Deputy Dog on everyone, but most are pretty cool and are here to have a good time and keep things in check for the benefit of everyone.