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[numble]

The largest number of Japanese lawmakers visiting Yasakuni Shrine since records were kept in 1989.

The largest number of Chinese vessels that have ever entered the territorial waters around the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, basically following a flotilla of 10 Japanese nationalist ships (same group that landed Japanese people on the islands last year). I guess they're either protesting the Yasakuni Shrine visit, or going to try to prevent Japanese nationalists from trying to land on the islands.

Japan MPs visit Yasukuni Shrine as island tensions rumble
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22260140

Dozens of Japanese MPs have visited a war-linked shrine, as multiple vessels from China and Japan sailed in waters near disputed East China Sea islands.

A total of 168 lawmakers visited the Yasukuni Shrine, a day after South Korea's foreign minister shelved a visit over the issue.

The shrine commemorates Japan's war dead, including war criminals.

Meanwhile Japan summoned the Chinese ambassador after eight Chinese patrol ships sailed near the disputed islands.

China said its ships had been monitoring Japanese vessels, as a group of Japanese activists sailed several boats to the area.

...

Meanwhile the dispute over the East China Sea islands - called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China - flared again, with what reports said was the highest number of Chinese boats in the area since Tokyo nationalised part of the island chain in September 2012.

It came as 10 Japanese boats carrying around 80 activists arrived in the area early on Tuesday, Reuters news agency reported, monitored by Japanese Coast Guard vessels. Public broadcaster NHK said the boats were carrying "regional lawmakers and members of the foreign media".

"The intrusion into territorial waters is extremely regrettable. In any case, the Senkaku islands are Japan's own territory without a doubt," Yoshihide Suga, Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary, said.

But China's State Oceanic Administration issued a statement saying three of its ships had "found" several Japanese ships around the Diaoyu islands, and "immediately ordered another five ships in the East China Sea to meet the three ships".

China claims the island chain, which is controlled by Japan. Taiwan also claims the islands, which offer rich fishing grounds and lie in a strategically important area.


...

Edit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/w...nese-boats-converge-on-contested-islands.html

NYT says 11+ ships have been sent by China:

HONG KONG — Festering tensions between Japan and China flared anew on Tuesday as Beijing and Tokyo sent vessels to monitor a flotilla of boats carrying Japanese nationalists that sailed near islands in the East China Sea that both nations claim as their own.

The episode was the latest in a potentially dangerous dance being played out over the islands, which Japan nationalized last September, igniting anti-Japanese protests in China.

China’s State Oceanic Administration said on its Web site that it had sent 11 vessels in four formations to the seas around the islands for “routine patrols.” An initial group of vessels found multiple Japanese boats there, and the administration then sent more ships, it said. The Chinese boats are “engaging in observation and evidence collection, and law enforcement, against the intrusive Japanese behavior,” said the administration.

The Japanese nationalists, in a 10-boat flotilla, have said they would not land on the island, a potentially provocative act that could draw a response from the Chinese ships. However, organizers of a separate flotilla last summer made similar pledges not to land on the islands, but a handful of nationalists still went ashore.

 

[Fuzz Rez]

edit. nvm read the thread title wrong.

Any way. I don't see problem visiting the shrine. I do see a problem with the education system that doesn't teach the events of WWII well enough. Not Japanese problem alone. Very few countries are actually honest when it comes to war atrocities.

 

[ivysaur12]

Yeesh. Why even touch Yasakuni if you're a Japanese politician? It's such an awful idea.

 

[Madness]

Yeesh. Why even touch Yasakuni if you're a Japanese politician? It's such an awful idea.

Why not? They go there to pay respect to those who fell at a time of war and in the service of the country. Just because it seems disrespectful to other countries is not a reason not to go.

For example, Chinese get upset when they visit the shrine due to the numerous atrocities that happened, and yet they revere Chairman Mao, a man who killed more Chinese directly than any Japanese general or soldier did.

I don't know, I know some might take offense, but the shrine was a tribute to the millions who died in the service of Japan.

"The shrine lists the names, origin, birthdate and place of death of 2,466,532 men, women and children and spans from the Boshin War of 1867 to World War II.The Honden shrine commemorates anyone who died on behalf of the Empire. Therefore it is not restricted to soldiers and also includes the names of relief workers, factory workers, citizens" etc.

The only controversy comes from the fact some people feel that a few names are war criminals and it's disrespectful to them.

 

[Fuzz Rez]

Yeesh. Why even touch Yasakuni if you're a Japanese politician? It's such an awful idea.

It doesn't seem to bother Japanese voters and that's what counts.

 

[numble]

Photo of Japanese Coast Guard, Chinese Marine Surveillance, and Japanese Nationalist ships

From:
http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/slide_8_35313_22865.html#p=1

 

[Kabouter]

Visiting that shrine I feel is a grave insult to the many nations that fell prey to Japanese barbarism and imperialism, China more than any other.

I don't know, I know some might take offense, but the shrine was a tribute to the millions who died in the service of Japan.

In the service of a Japan that was doing what exactly?

 

[Subitai]

It doesn't seem to bother Japanese voters and that's what counts.

Yup, they aren't elected by Chinese.

 

[Fuzz Rez]

In the service of a Japan that was doing what exactly?

Meiji Restoration? Shrine in question isn't just for WWII soldiers or just for soldiers.

 

[Kabouter]

Meiji Restoration? Shrine in question isn't just for WWII soldiers or just for soldiers.

I think you'll find the overwhelming majority of those commemorated were soldiers and others who died in the many wars Japan fought to expand its empire.

It'd be like politicians here commemorating the Aceh war.

Spoiler

Not that politicians here don't routinely ignore the many war crimes Dutch troops committed in maintaining the Indonesian colonies.

 

[Madness]

Visiting that shrine I feel is a grave insult to the many nations that fell prey to Japanese barbarism and imperialism, China more than any other.


In the service of a Japan that was doing what exactly?

A Japan that did the same thing numerous other nations did. They weren't alone in their expansion and occupation of other countries.

China invaded Tibet and has been occupying it since, they revere a dictator in chairman Mao a man who slaughtered millions.

Going by your example, does that mean Brits can never visit any memorial to fallen soldiers of pre World War II? Do Indians have the right to demand that Queen Victoria and other British Empire leaders who authorized atrocities and crimes committed during their occupation, never be remembered?

I get the sentiment. Japan was a belligerent during World War II and they committed tons of atrocities and war crimes. They do a shitty job of apologizing or teaching them, but it's not up to the Chinese to dictate if they can or cannot honor their own dead.

 

[ivysaur12]

Why not? They go there to pay respect to those who fell at a time of war and in the service of the country. Just because it seems disrespectful to other countries is not a reason not to go.

For example, Chinese get upset when they visit the shrine due to the numerous atrocities that happened, and yet they revere Chairman Mao, a man who killed more Chinese directly than any Japanese general or soldier did.

I don't know, I know some might take offense, but the shrine was a tribute to the millions who died in the service of Japan.

"The shrine lists the names, origin, birthdate and place of death of 2,466,532 men, women and children and spans from the Boshin War of 1867 to World War II.The Honden shrine commemorates anyone who died on behalf of the Empire. Therefore it is not restricted to soldiers and also includes the names of relief workers, factory workers, citizens" etc.

The only controversy comes from the fact some people feel that a few names are war criminals and it's disrespectful to them.

They enshrined over a thousand war criminals in Yasakuni. As a non-Chinese (and a non-Japanese who also is non-religious), it still unbelievable that an elected politician would pay respect to a shrine that exemplifies some of the worst of modern Japanese imperialism. Maybe that's just me.

 

[Kabouter]

A Japan that did the same thing numerous other nations did. They weren't alone in their expansion and occupation of other countries.

China invaded Tibet and has been occupying it since, they revere a dictator in chairman Mao a man who slaughtered millions.

Going by your example, does that mean Brits can never visit any memorial to fallen soldiers of pre World War II? Do Indians have the right to demand that Queen Victoria and other British Empire leaders who authorized atrocities and crimes committed during their occupation, never be remembered?

I get the sentiment. Japan was a belligerent during World War II and they committed tons of atrocities and war crimes. They do a shitty job of apologizing or teaching them, but it's not up to the Chinese to dictate if they can or cannot honor their own dead.

I don't think nations should honour those who fell in wars that sought the oppression of other peoples, no. I definitely don't think war criminals should be honoured. I wasn't aware that was such an unusual position to take. Oh, and World War II is far from the only problem as far as Japan is concerned. I'm not sure it ever fought a foreign war that wasn't one purely or largely for imperial interests.

 

[ivysaur12]

A Japan that did the same thing numerous other nations did. They weren't alone in their expansion and occupation of other countries.

China invaded Tibet and has been occupying it since, they revere a dictator in chairman Mao a man who slaughtered millions.

Going by your example, does that mean Brits can never visit any memorial to fallen soldiers of pre World War II? Do Indians have the right to demand that Queen Victoria and other British Empire leaders who authorized atrocities and crimes committed during their occupation, never be remembered?

I get the sentiment. Japan was a belligerent during World War II and they committed tons of atrocities and war crimes. They do a shitty job of apologizing or teaching them, but it's not up to the Chinese to dictate if they can or cannot honor their own dead.

War criminals should not be honored, no. We have to be mindful of our shared national history, even the ugly aspects we'd prefer not to turn over.

 

[Quadrangulum]

How unfortunate. Until now, the new Japanese administration has been very good about keeping its focus on the economy.

Going by your example, does that mean Brits can never visit any memorial to fallen soldiers of pre World War II? Do Indians have the right to demand that Queen Victoria and other British Empire leaders who authorized atrocities and crimes committed during their occupation, never be remembered?

First, these politicians are not simply respecting the dead but doing it in a manner part in parcel with an intent of stoking the fires of nationalism. Regardless of what Yasukuni is or isn't, this intent poisons the nature of their visits.

Second, no one should celebrate imperialism, the British included.

edit: Likewise, the Chinese shouldn't be celebrating Mao. Just because other countries' citizens do stupid nationalist things does not provide license for this.

 

[WARCOCK]

Visiting that shrine I feel is a grave insult to the many nations that fell prey to Japanese barbarism and imperialism, China more than any other.


In the service of a Japan that was doing what exactly?

I dunno where to draw the line of moral equivalency to be honest, it's a complicated issue i think. The cumulative bombing of the allies was pretty horrific and i'm not sure most of it was necessary, why is it fair that we celebrate our veterans and they can't? Because we won the war? I dunno kab :/ Ideally nobody should celebrate shit and we should just ponder the atrocity and human devastation of the second world war as a species i think :/

 

[bobbytkc]

Why not? They go there to pay respect to those who fell at a time of war and in the service of the country. Just because it seems disrespectful to other countries is not a reason not to go.

For example, Chinese get upset when they visit the shrine due to the numerous atrocities that happened, and yet they revere Chairman Mao, a man who killed more Chinese directly than any Japanese general or soldier did.

I don't know, I know some might take offense, but the shrine was a tribute to the millions who died in the service of Japan.

"The shrine lists the names, origin, birthdate and place of death of 2,466,532 men, women and children and spans from the Boshin War of 1867 to World War II.The Honden shrine commemorates anyone who died on behalf of the Empire. Therefore it is not restricted to soldiers and also includes the names of relief workers, factory workers, citizens" etc.

The only controversy comes from the fact some people feel that a few names are war criminals and it's disrespectful to them.

How would you think the world would react if they had a shrine where the Nazis are paid respect, even if it includes other soldiers that died in service to germany?

 

[t26]

The only controversy comes from the fact some people feel that a few names are war criminals and it's disrespectful to them.

It is not people "feel" they are war criminals. They were tried in court and found guilty of war crimes. This includes someone like Hideki Tojo who was responsible for Pearl Harbor.

 

[Madness]

War criminals should not be honored, no. We have to be mindful of our shared national history, even the ugly aspects we'd prefer not to turn over.

Who decides who are war criminals? Being from Canada, I hear all the time about how George W. Bush shouldn't be allowed in, he's a war criminal etc.

There is probably a large number of people worldwide who believe that. Can any American citizen here tell me they wouldn't honor him if he died because another country in the world believes it?

There are close to 2.5 million people enshrined there, and the majority aren't soldiers. Out of those 2.5 million, about 1000 or so we're considered war criminals decided by the victors of World War II, naturally, no one from these countries was considered a war criminal.

Is it only the victors who decide? Chairman Mao was worse than any Japanese general, he's directly responsible for the death of millions and millions of Chinese and he's revered almost like a god in China.

I'm not Japanese, not Chinese, maybe I'm not understanding. Russia is allowed to honor it's world war II soldiers and generals, people who soon after started to occupy Eastern Europe and commit numerous atrocities as well.

But I see I'm in a minority. I understand.

 

[linsivvi]

They do a shitty job of apologizing or teaching them, but it's not up to the Chinese to dictate if they can or cannot honor their own dead.

No, it's not up to them to dictate what the Japanese politicians do or don't do, but it's definitely up to them to decide how to handle diplomatic relationships with Japan.

It's called respecting your neighbors and human decency. Not a very hard concept to grasp.

 

[Fivefold]

I get the sentiment. Japan was a belligerent during World War II and they committed tons of atrocities and war crimes. They do a shitty job of apologizing or teaching them, but it's not up to the Chinese to dictate if they can or cannot honor their own dead.

Can you imagine Germany building a monument for it's dead soldiers and including the names of Hitler, Himmler and other war criminals?

 

[Steelrain]

No, it's not up to them to dictate what the Japanese politicians do or don't do, but it's definitely up to them to decide how to handle diplomatic relationships with Japan.

It's called respecting your neighbors and human decency. Not a very hard concept to grasp.

Well....considering both countries recent actions in the region i'd say its a pretty hard concept to grasp.

 

[Madness]

No, it's not up to them to dictate what the Japanese politicians do or don't do, but it's definitely up to them to decide how to handle diplomatic relationships with Japan.

It's called respecting your neighbors and human decency. Not a very hard concept to grasp.

You mean the China that occupied Tibet and threatens any country that meets with the Dalai Lama a man who almost every nation in the world considers peaceful? China which routinely threatens it's neighboring countries? Where is the human decency in not denouncing Chairman Mao a dictator who slaughtered millions?

It's actually human decency to remember people who fell in war because their country asked them to. Not all were soldiers, not all were war criminals.

 

[spwolf]

Photo of Japanese Coast Guard, Chinese Marine Surveillance, and Japanese Nationalist ships

From:
http://slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/slide_8_35313_22865.html#p=1

i can imagine tensions between sailors on those ships so close together

 

[numble]

Who decides who are war criminals?

The ICC and its predecessors. It was an international tribunal that convicted those Japanese officials as war criminals, with 11 countries represented as judges.

 

[spwolf]

Can you imagine Germany building a monument for it's dead soldiers and including the names of Hitler, Himmler and other war criminals?

with exception of Hitler and very few that were tried as war criminals, Germany does honor their dead, and so does every country in the world.

Not sure what does that have to do with the fact that Japanese settled those islands first though. But I am sure that discovery of oil nearby has everything to do with the problems they are having now.

 

[navii]

Personal views aside I like to visit the shrine for the Mitama Matsuri whenever I am in Japan in July. Its a wonderful atmosphere.

 

[laesperanzapaz]

eh, I see what Madness is getting at. Almost all the big European countries and the US have a long history of heinous shit. This includes outright genocide, although of course nothing can rival the Holocaust.

Japan is not alone in the tone-deafness when it comes to its heinous history. China, Korea, Indonesia, India et. al. are all guilty of history whitewashing that rivals some of those Texas-approved history books that I am hearing about in the US. This, of course, does not excuse Japan's terribad historical views (and racism).

edit: also, whenever these kinds of discussions pop up IRL or here, people always bring up Germany's rather encouraging example of how they treat their Nazi past. But you have to understand that is one of very, very few exceptions around the world.

 

[Madness]

The ICC and its predecessors. It was an international tribunal that convicted those Japanese officials as war criminals, with 11 countries represented as judges.

Made up primarily of the victors. No one thinks Stalin and Mao aren't war criminals themselves? Also bringing up the ICC just highlights the hypocrisy. It's funny how China, the US, Russia and others don't ratify the ICC or follow it while Japan now does no?

I'm not trying to say Japan was in the right at all. I openly admit they committed heinous acts, none worse than the massacre at Nanking. I'm saying that every country honors it's war dead, and Japan is no exception.

But Japan doesn't openly mourn either. These people pay respects at a shrine that has over 2.5 million names of soldiers, workers, builders, nurses, citizens who died during the Meiji Restoration. Of these 1000 are considered war criminals that the victors decided. They don't openly champion these people's actions, they respect the fact they died.

 

[linsivvi]

eh, I see what Madness is getting at. Almost all the big European countries and the US have a long history of heinous shit. This includes outright genocide, although of course nothing can rival the Holocaust.

Japan is not alone in the tone-deafness when it comes to its heinous history. China, Korea, Indonesia, India et. al. are all guilty of history whitewashing that rivals some of those Texas-approved history books that I am hearing about in the US. This, of course, does not excuse Japan's terribad historical views (and racism).

It's illogical. If a country's leaders do something wrong, call them out. What he is doing is like a child yelling at the playground, and keep bringing up Mao and Tibet. It's bullshit because those things have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

 

[spwolf]

eh, I see what Madness is getting at. Almost all the big European countries and the US have a long history of heinous shit. This includes outright genocide, although of course nothing can rival the Holocaust.

Japan is not alone in the tone-deafness when it comes to its heinous history. China, Korea, Indonesia, India et. al. are all guilty of history whitewashing that rivals some of those Texas-approved history books that I am hearing about in the US. This, of course, does not excuse Japan's terribad historical views (and racism).

edit: also, whenever these kinds of discussions pop up IRL or here, people always bring up Germany's rather encouraging example of how they treat their Nazi past. But you have to understand that is one of very, very few exceptions around the world.

kind of yes, but Nazi were pure evil, not just "imperialists".

I find US to have best report with its history - they accept errors they make and put them in their school books... not many if any other country does that.

 

[Kabouter]

eh, I see what Madness is getting at. Almost all the big European countries and the US have a long history of heinous shit. This includes outright genocide, although of course nothing can rival the Holocaust.

Japan is not alone in the tone-deafness when it comes to its heinous history. China, Korea, Indonesia, India et. al. are all guilty of history whitewashing that rivals some of those Texas-approved history books that I am hearing about in the US. This, of course, does not excuse Japan's terribad historical views (and racism).

edit: also, whenever these kinds of discussions pop up IRL or here, people always bring up Germany's rather encouraging example of how they treat their Nazi past. But you have to understand that is one of very, very few exceptions around the world.

It is an exception, but Japan is an exception as well. Most other countries, and you are right to point to imperialism from Europe and the US, do not honour their fallen soldiers in imperialist wars. Japan does, knowing full well that it is a provocation.

kind of yes, but Nazi were pure evil, not just "imperialists".

I find US to have best report with its history - they accept errors they make and put them in their school books... not many if any other country does that.

I wouldn't characterize the Japanese military during the 30s and 40s as anything else.

 

[Fivefold]

It's actually human decency to remember people who fell in war because their country asked them to. Not all were soldiers, not all were war criminals.

Mao didn't slaughter millions, what the fuck you're on about. A lot of people died because of misguided policy during the great leap forward (mostly to famine), but he also saved a lot of lives by ending the civil war and improving life conditions in China.

He was certainly not a benevolent and democratic leader but the whole anti-communist propaganda idea that he was a mass murderer like Hitler or Pol Pot is idiotic. Try to get some perspective and more balanced sources. Do we blame Hoover for all the people that died of poverty-related reasons during the great depression?

 

[Fuzz Rez]

kind of yes, but Nazi were pure evil, not just "imperialists".

I find US to have best report with its history - they accept errors they make and put them in their school books... not many if any other country does that.

Japan at the time was pure evil as well. As for US history I have to say I don't agree. At least the K12 books I saw in the 90s were more or less "hushus" about many atrocities of vietnam. I didn't get the chance to go over their WW2 parts properly so don't know what they had to say about atom bombs. I guess this all varies from state to state?

 

[Madness]

It's illogical. If a country's leaders do something wrong, call them out. What he is doing is like a child yelling at the playground, and keep bringing up Mao and Tibet. It's bullshit because those things have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Keep the personal attacks out of it. Were having a discussion here. No one is yelling like a child except you.

 

[numble]

Made up primarily of the victors. No one thinks Stalin and Mao aren't war criminals themselves? Also bringing up the ICC just highlights the hypocrisy. It's funny how China, the US, Russia and others don't ratify the ICC or follow it while Japan now does no?

War crimes apply to international conflicts. You might mean crimes against humanity.

Who cares about hypocrisy? The Chinese can hate Mao and hate that China doesn't join the ICC in addition to hating the veneration of war criminals by Japan.

The US can protest slavery or genocide in Africa even if it engaged in the same things in the past with African slaves and genocide against Native Americans.

 

[Madness]

Mao didn't slaughter millions, what the fuck you're on about. A lot of people died because of misguided policy during the great leap forward (mostly to famine), but he also saved a lot of lives by ending the civil war and improving life conditions in China.

He was certainly not a benevolent and democratic leader but the whole anti-communist propaganda idea that he was a mass murderer like Hitler or Pol Pot is idiotic. Try to get some perspective and more balanced sources. Do we blame Hoover for all the people that died of poverty-related reasons during the great depression?

What the fuck? This is the first time I've ever seen anyone say an authoritarian dictator isn't responsible for what happened under him.

He openly ordered the execution of thousands of people, his administration had numerous human rights abuses, openly starved others, put hundreds of thousands in death camps and prisons. No one is more directly responsible for human death in history than Chairman Mao who's responsible for over 50 million+ deaths.

Get the ends justify the means bullshit out of here. How is he any different from other dictators? Because China ended up more successful it means it's alright?

 

[curlyfriski]

Why not? They go there to pay respect to those who fell at a time of war and in the service of the country. Just because it seems disrespectful to other countries is not a reason not to go.

For example, Chinese get upset when they visit the shrine due to the numerous atrocities that happened, and yet they revere Chairman Mao, a man who killed more Chinese directly than any Japanese general or soldier did.

I don't know, I know some might take offense, but the shrine was a tribute to the millions who died in the service of Japan.

"The shrine lists the names, origin, birthdate and place of death of 2,466,532 men, women and children and spans from the Boshin War of 1867 to World War II.The Honden shrine commemorates anyone who died on behalf of the Empire. Therefore it is not restricted to soldiers and also includes the names of relief workers, factory workers, citizens" etc.

The only controversy comes from the fact some people feel that a few names are war criminals and it's disrespectful to them.

Because other nations honor war criminals doesn't make it OK when Japan does it. All instances of it are wrong. There are plenty of ways for Japan to honor its war dead WITHOUT including the people who have been recognized as having ordered and carried out the mass rape, prostitution, and slaughter of millions of others.

And get out of here with this "some people feel" bullshit. Everyone who isn't a right-wing Japanese nationalist knows they're war criminals.

 

[linsivvi]

Keep the personal attacks out of it. Were having a discussion here. No one is yelling like a child except you.

I didn't make any personal attack and I was having a discussion with another poster thank you very much.

 

[WARCOCK]

It is an exception, but Japan is an exception as well. Most other countries, and you are right to point to imperialism from Europe and the US, do not honour their fallen soldiers in imperialist wars. Japan does, knowing full well that it is a provocation.



I wouldn't characterize the Japanese military during the 30s and 40s as anything else.

Yeah i dunno about that ;p

 

[t26]

Because other nations honor war criminals doesn't make it OK when Japan does it. All instances of it are wrong. There are plenty of ways for Japan to honor its war dead WITHOUT including the people who have been recognized as having ordered and carried out the mass rape, prostitution, and slaughter of millions of others.

This. Just because China is making a mistake to honor Mao means it okay for Japan to honor Tojo?

 

[Madness]

Because other nations honor war criminals doesn't make it OK when Japan does it. All instances of it are wrong. There are plenty of ways for Japan to honor its war dead WITHOUT including the people who have been recognized as having ordered and carried out the mass rape, prostitution, and slaughter of millions of others.

Yes you're right. This is now apparently clear. If Japan was to remove the names of every person that is considered a war criminal. Does that make it alright to visit the shrine then?

Obviously there is a nationalistic aspect to it as well.

I didn't make any personal attack and I was having a discussion with another poster thank you very much.

Yes you did. That poster mentioned me. And in reference to me you said I'm acting like a yelling child at the playground and bringing up Mao and Tibet etc. All I said was keep the personal attacks out.

 

[xbhaskarx]

It's idiotic and an unnecessary provocation but at the end of the day it's just a shrine. Look at all the crap they do in the south to celebrate their "heritage"... if some southern politician visited Stone Mountain no one would care.

 

[numble]

What the fuck? This is the first time I've ever seen anyone say an authoritarian dictator isn't responsible for what happened under him.

He openly ordered the execution of thousands of people, his administration had numerous human rights abuses, openly starved others, put hundreds of thousands in death camps and prisons. No one is more directly responsible for human death in history than Chairman Mao who's responsible for over 50 million+ deaths.

Get the ends justify the means bullshit out of here. How is he any different from other dictators? Because China ended up more successful it means it's alright?

Unless you think its justifiable for every single discussion about bad things happening for people to bring up America's history with slavery, genocide of Native Americans, and imperialism, I think we should just drop this Mao discussion. It really is unrelated to whether people should be upset about Japanese war criminals.

If someone says they hate people that venerate Osama Bin Laden, is it fair ground to say that Americans venerate Founding Fathers that committed heinous acts? I don't think so.

 

[t26]

And we are not even getting into the part where Taiwanese and Koreans who don't want their families buried there. Can you really make an argument for that?

 

[Fuzz Rez]

nvm

 

[Madness]

Unless you think its justifiable for every single discussion about bad things happening for people to bring up America's history with slavery, genocide of Native Americans, and imperialism, I think we should just drop this Mao discussion. It really is unrelated to whether people should be upset about Japanese war criminals.

If someone says they hate people that venerate Osama Bin Laden, is it fair ground to say that Americans venerate Founding Fathers that committed heinous acts? I don't think so.

It's related because Mao was the leader of China during and after World War II. It didn't happen 200 years ago like your founding father analogy.

So it's relevant that you revere a dictator, and yet decry another nation who honors theirs during the same time no? Especially one who invades and occupies another nation and then claims imperialistic rule over it in the decades since?

I get people are upset about the fact there are war criminals names enshrined there, but they are but a tiny fraction of the millions of names there. If they removed those war criminal names, would it be okay to visit the shrine?

Eh, I've made a few of my points known. I'll stop posting now then. While I feel it may seem disrespectful to Koreans or Chinese who may or may not remember or may have family members who were victims of Japanese atrocities, a politician visiting a war shrine doesn't make a difference to me. It's not like they're openly saying they liked what happened then, or that they aren't sorry.

 

[numble]

And we are not even getting into the part where Taiwanese and Koreans who don't want their families buried there. Can you really make an argument for that?

Yes, South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se cancelled his planned trip to Japan this week in protest of the Yasukuni Shrine visit:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...ed-for-visit-cancellation/UPI-87661366603641/

South Korea canceled a Tokyo trip by its foreign minister to protest a visit by two Japanese ministers to a controversial war shrine, a source told Yonhap News.

Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se's trip for his first talks with Japanese counterpart Fumio Kishida had been scheduled for the weekend, but it was called off after reports the Japanese ministers had visited the Yasukini war shrine in Tokyo, a Seoul Foreign Ministry official told Yonhap Monday.

Bububu... South Korea had Syngman Rhee, Park Chung-hee, Chun Doo-hwan, and Roh Tae-woo, amirite? Hypocrisy!

It's related because Mao was the leader of China during and after World War II. It didn't happen 200 years ago like your founding father analogy.

So it's relevant that you revere a dictator, and yet decry another nation who honors theirs during the same time no? Especially one who invades and occupies another nation and then claims imperialistic rule over it in the decades since?

I get people are upset about the fact there are war criminals names enshrined there, but they are but a tiny fraction of the millions of names there. If they removed those war criminal names, would it be okay to visit the shrine?

So if 60 years is the time frame, you can talk about Japanese internment camps, segregation, civil rights, CIA activities in South America, then?

 

[t26]

Even if we ignore the war criminals, are you okay with the shine keeping the remains of Taiwanese and Koreans instead of returning them to their families?

 

[Fuzz Rez]

Yes, South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se cancelled his planned trip to Japan this week in protest of the Yasukuni Shrine visit:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...ed-for-visit-cancellation/UPI-87661366603641/



Bububu... South Korea had Syngman Rhee, Park Chung-hee, Chun Doo-hwan, and Roh Tae-woo, amirite? Hypocrisy!

One unrelated question but since history teaching has been brought up more then few times already I'll shoot. Does S-Korea teach about their part in Vietnam? I wasn't aware about their wrong doings there until few years back. I know they made official apology in the early 00s but how about teaching the in the schools?