Read the thread. The feature is causing the cheating. You coming in hot talking about PC elitist in a thread about keeping the competitive community together is a shitpost. I'm disabled and can't use KBm, but I use my steam controller, which is way better and more customizable for my needs than a more expensive solution like a proprietary controller that hurts the game because of its inherent inclusion.
Give mouse and keyboard aim assist natively. That should satisfy everyone.![]()
I recognize that, but it's not really the cheating that is the root of all the noise on reddit... It started off with KBM purists complaining about aim assist on PC for controllers.
why are you bringing 4chan/reddit bullshit to a neogaf thread actually trying to be constructive then?
or maybe shooters are not for you if you want help because you can not aim for yourself...
aim assist on kb/m
It's here too.... This is the elitist BS I'm talking about.
No point in arguing with someone who only cares about his own comfort. Once again kb/m users emulating AA from controllers will be ruining the experience for every type of player.
If you're fine with that, then theres no point in even responding to you.
It's here too.... This is the elitist BS I'm talking about.
Edit: I'd bet there is a way to detect XIM users by analyzing movement input patterns. WASD movement is going to look different than an analog stick.
We agree it's been proven the issue exists. There is potential for cheating in Destiny 2 PC. But, please educate me (with data), as to why you're convinced that it is in fact reasonable to expect that the KB+M cheaters using auto-aim will "ruin" the experience for a statistically relevant portion of the user base. You see, I remain unconvinced either way, but I am interested in learning whether there is such data to support your side of the dispute. The argument, thus far, seems to be based on emotion rather than fact as my brother-in-law so aptly illustrated during lunch today, and I quote "I've been dominating PvP, so I don't think cheating is a thing right now. That said, once I start losing I'll know it's because other people are using auto-aim and cheating."
I do, however, agree that higher frame rates do make the auto-aim feel a tad heavy-handed on PC. I would prefer if they toned it down to be perfectly honest.
From what I understand, since it's emulation, there will be no way to detect this. It will appear as controller input.
Also, stop focusing on posts you find non-constructive, and look at the ones that are.
Its true though, At some point people have to realize they aren't the best at every game, and the game doesn't have a responsibility to make them feel like they're good at it. If you can't help but shit post in a tech thread, and can only point to meta commentary then you should start a thread about that. This thread is about how Aim assist is negatively affecting the PVP community for Destiny 2. The thread doesn't even care about the main meat of the game in the PVE. Yet here you and others are talking about PC eltism.
From what I understand, since it's emulation, there will be no way to detect this. It will appear as controller input.
Also, stop focusing on posts you find non-constructive, and look at the ones that are.
We agree it's been proven the issue exists. There is potential for cheating in Destiny 2 PC. But, please educate me (with data), as to why you're convinced that it is in fact reasonable to expect that the KB+M cheaters using auto-aim will "ruin" the experience for a statistically relevant portion of the user base. You see, I remain unconvinced either way, but I am interested in learning whether there is such data to support your side of the dispute. The argument, thus far, seems to be based on emotion rather than fact as my brother-in-law so aptly illustrated during lunch today, and I quote "I've been dominating PvP, so I don't think cheating is a thing right now. That said, once I start losing I'll know it's because other people are using auto-aim and cheating."
I do, however, agree that higher frame rates do make the auto-aim feel a tad heavy-handed on PC. I would prefer if they toned it down to be perfectly honest.
Without the cheating this is a non-issue.
Huh? Doesn't the question answer itself? KB + Mouse with Auto Aim will shit on the average KB + Mouse w/o AA and controller users. Its basically a user with the best of both worlds. KB + Mouse for precision, and controller for auto aim.
This "problem" is for a specific subset, the competitive minded player in the PVP mode. This of course, isn't the majority of the player base, but it will be composed of the most "hardcore" destiny players. This specific subset is also the type to be prone to cheating due to their need to compete at the top. This is apparent if you play R6 Seige for more than 10 minutes and watch the banned notifications. Cheaters of all types are known to do almost anything to get the edge, including paying for hardware(lag switches) and hardware(aimbot and wallhacks). The XIM is already controversial for giving this same subset advantages over others on consoles, and now the much more open platform of PC has found a way to use that to an even worse effect.
This thread is the end result of that, and all the OP is saying is that something needs to happen before those who don't want to have to cheat to are pushed out by those who are resolved to win.
On the surface it will but if you look at it, the movement is still going to be binary with only 8 directions on left stick because they are using WASD. I wouldn't rule out a smart algorithm detecting this.
Yes, that's been established. But, how statistically prevalent are those users using auto-aim with KB+M setups? You seem to be convinced it's reasonable to expect it will be a widespread issue, and I'm wondering exactly why that is. I am not even disagreeing with you.
Yes, that's been established. But, how statistically prevalent are those users using auto-aim with KB+M setups? You seem to be convinced it's reasonable to expect it will be a widespread issue, and I'm wondering exactly why that is. I am not even disagreeing with you.
It's here too.... This is the elitist BS I'm talking about.
Edit: I'd bet there is a way to detect XIM users by analyzing movement input patterns. WASD movement is going to look different than an analog stick.
The problem is that they have no way of knowing whether the input device is a controller or a keyboard if a user is emulating controller inputs. It will just look like a controller.Not sure if this is possible, but perhaps they could lock out/block the keyboard (or parts of it) during gameplay. If you select the option of using a controller the keyboard isn't necessary during the gameplay itself. The controller controls everything in the game perfectly fine. If you want your keyboard back, enter a menu screen (character or options) where it will unlock.
You should work for blizzard.
Also, stop focusing on posts you find non-constructive, and look at the ones that are.
I mentioned this in the last big thread on XIM when I called out Sony or MS for not doing anything when they could. There's no reason they can't considering the devices of discussion themselves do it.
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However the reason you're most likely not going to see them do this is it will eat CPU cycles and could add to input lag if not done right. That and they prefer the status quo to doing real work on the issue.
"I can't be sure if we won because I'm awesome, or because the other three players on my team are playing with controllers"
I totally vibe with this post from that thread
This really does feel weird on PC. I played a quickplay match earlier where we went 100-32, I did reasonably okay. I had a 1.8 kdr but everyone else on my team had 3.2 - 6.8.
6.8?!
WHAT?
I didn't think the enemy team was particularly bad either. They got a good amount of kills and had me running scared often. it's just that we had all 3 points for the bulk of the game so they earned like no points. Hell my 1.8 kdr was mostly because I'd pop a round in a guy and then he'd light me up so I'd go hide with my low HP and 1 second later some one else would swoop in and murder them.
I couldn't figure out if my team mates were actually that good or if they were playing with controllers either. I mean maybe they were THAT good but I'll actually never know.
I totally vibe with this post from that thread
This really does feel weird on PC. I played a quickplay match earlier where we went 100-32, I did reasonably okay. I had a 1.8 kdr but everyone else on my team had 3.2 - 6.8.
6.8?!
WHAT?
I didn't think the enemy team was particularly bad either. They got a good amount of kills and had me running scared often. it's just that we had all 3 points for the bulk of the game so they earned like no points. Hell my 1.8 kdr was mostly because I'd pop a round in a guy and then he'd light me up so I'd go hide with my low HP and 1 second later some one else would swoop in and murder them.
I couldn't figure out if my team mates were actually that good or if they were playing with controllers either. I mean maybe they were THAT good but I'll actually never know.
It doesn't have to be done in real-time. Could be server side. Maybe they only do it for one in every 20 games or something so that is isn't crazy resource intensive on their side.
Ah, nah. I was just poking fun at the OP saying the world doesn't evolve around that persons enjoyment while making the case for something to be changed because of his enjoyment being affected. It was a light prod. I'm not getting D2 on PC so have no interest in what plays out there, the only point I have is that both the issue in the OP and the recoil differences between inputs should be looked at and not just the one affecting KB&M players negatively.You and the other post want to keep AA for controllers, which is understandable, but the OP has a very detailed post about why this might not be possible.
I had a 15 and 21 kda game yesterday, primarily because of how broken controllers are. Not cheats, just how powerful the autoaim is for tracking headshots.I totally vibe with this post from that thread
This really does feel weird on PC. I played a quickplay match earlier where we went 100-32, I did reasonably okay. I had a 1.8 kdr but everyone else on my team had 3.2 - 6.8.
6.8?!
WHAT?
I didn't think the enemy team was particularly bad either. They got a good amount of kills and had me running scared often. it's just that we had all 3 points for the bulk of the game so they earned like no points. Hell my 1.8 kdr was mostly because I'd pop a round in a guy and then he'd light me up so I'd go hide with my low HP and 1 second later some one else would swoop in and murder them.
I couldn't figure out if my team mates were actually that good or if they were playing with controllers either. I mean maybe they were THAT good but I'll actually never know.
The ๖ۜBronx;247435952 said:Ah, nah. I was just poking fun at the OP saying the world doesn't evolve around that persons enjoyment while making the case for something to be changed because of his enjoyment being affected. It was a light prod. I'm not getting D2 on PC so have no interest in what plays out there, the only point I have is that both the issue in the OP and the recoil differences between inputs should be looked at and not just the one affecting KB&M players negatively.
I totally vibe with this post from that thread
This really does feel weird on PC. I played a quickplay match earlier where we went 100-32, I did reasonably okay. I had a 1.8 kdr but everyone else on my team had 3.2 - 6.8.
6.8?!
WHAT?
I didn't think the enemy team was particularly bad either. They got a good amount of kills and had me running scared often. it's just that we had all 3 points for the bulk of the game so they earned like no points. Hell my 1.8 kdr was mostly because I'd pop a round in a guy and then he'd light me up so I'd go hide with my low HP and 1 second later some one else would swoop in and murder them.
I couldn't figure out if my team mates were actually that good or if they were playing with controllers either. I mean maybe they were THAT good but I'll actually never know.
Everyones enjoyment is being affected, not mine only.. a kb/m with AA will shit on all types of users (both controller and kb/m)
Which is why it was a light hearted poke at the wording and not some character assassination.Everyones enjoyment is being affected, not mine only.. a kb/m with AA will shit on all types of users (both controller and kb/m)
Because there a lot of people in the world who take advantages of exploits if it helps them win? They won't get banned for it because its not being injected into the game, they're simply emulating the controller onto their m/kb. Will every single game have a person using a m/kb with AA? Prob not. Its better to complain about it now while the game is in beta and still 2 months away from releasing then not talking about it at all.
because people will spend money to give them an advantage? CSGO cheats can be thousands of dollars, at least the good ones.
A XIM4 is the next best thing while only being like $100. In fact it's probably better than buying cheats outright since you won't get banned
Definitely agreed on that. PvE is much more stationary enemies and the reduced recoil + faster turn of a mouse really helps for that.Somewhat tangential to the topic, but I noticed that KBM is highly superior to gamepads in PvE. Even for someone like me who didn't grow up playing FPS on PC, crits are ridiculously easy to get on bosses, etc and certain weapons like the SMG are WAYY better on KBM due to the reduced recoil.
without data we will never know if it's a relevant proportion or not.
but yes we are weel aware the possibility is already irrelevant to you...
The problem is that they have no way of knowing whether the input device is a controller or a keyboard if a user is emulating controller inputs. It will just look like a controller.
Can people who do this aim as fast and accurately as normal m/kb users? Any videos of this?You would be 100% correct if people did not find a way to get KBM to register as a controller already.
without data we will never know if it's a relevant proportion or not.
but yes we are weel aware the possibility is already irrelevant to you...
Can people who do this aim as fast and accurately as normal m/kb users? Any videos of this?
We have a name for software like that.I get that the Keyboard is emulating the controller through software. But I find it hard to believe that somebody can't come up with a way of telling your PC to shut off your keyboard. Its listed as a Device in the Device Manager. If software turns off/blocks that device that your PC recognizes as a keyboard, how can you use it for emulation?
I think the issue is that trying to stop this exploit is nigh impossible because the recognition of whether an input device is a controller or keyboard/mouse is at the system level--would need to fundamentally change how Windows works for that, and that's not something Bungie can do.
That good old tug of war between a solid anti-cheat and "don't touch my shit". It's a tough one for sure, would you rather let some people exploit or sacrifice some element of privacy within the system files of your PC. Not specifically to this but it's an interesting discussion on its own.We have a name for software like that.
It's called a "virus".
I've never heard of Titanfall 2 MKB players getting residual aim assist from the controller aim assist. This sounds squarely like a Bungie issue.
If they have to, they should force it so that you can't switch between MKB and controller input without a menu toggle.
The ๖ۜBronx;247437287 said:That good old tug of war between a solid anti-cheat and "don't touch my shit". It's a tough one for sure, would you rather let some people exploit or sacrifice some element of privacy within the system files of your PC. Not specifically to this but it's an interesting discussion on its own.
I have more than 1000 hours of Destiny on PS4 and played yesterday with the same friends that went to the Lighthouse with me multiple times. Our KD was higher than 6 in most of the matches. And I don't cheat and my friends don't either.I totally vibe with this post from that thread
This really does feel weird on PC. I played a quickplay match earlier where we went 100-32, I did reasonably okay. I had a 1.8 kdr but everyone else on my team had 3.2 - 6.8.
6.8?!
WHAT?
I didn't think the enemy team was particularly bad either. They got a good amount of kills and had me running scared often. it's just that we had all 3 points for the bulk of the game so they earned like no points. Hell my 1.8 kdr was mostly because I'd pop a round in a guy and then he'd light me up so I'd go hide with my low HP and 1 second later some one else would swoop in and murder them.
I couldn't figure out if my team mates were actually that good or if they were playing with controllers either. I mean maybe they were THAT good but I'll actually never know.
Hey someone that actually tried it and believes me. Play with MKB for a day of PvP and switch to controller, you basically have a laser locked on people's heads.I just used a controller for the hell of it.....oh my lord.....my pulse rifle never went anything but yellow....that shit not only locks....but stays tracking to the head in quite a fucking range.....you would have to be a literal fucking pro to match that on a keyboard and mouse for the micro movement to stay that accurate at times......the controller.....never leaves.....i even got into a strafe fight and knew the only reason I won....was because of the AA.
God......if this doesn't get removed, I actually would rather buy a XIM and own the fuck out of everyone because its an option
No average mouse and keyboard user can match some of the shit the AA does
I just used a controller for the hell of it.....oh my lord.....my pulse rifle never went anything but yellow....that shit not only locks....but stays tracking to the head in quite a fucking range.....you would have to be a literal fucking pro to match that on a keyboard and mouse for the micro movement to stay that accurate at times......the controller.....never leaves.....i even got into a strafe fight and knew the only reason I won....was because of the AA.
God......if this doesn't get removed, I actually would rather buy a XIM and own the fuck out of everyone because its an option
No average mouse and keyboard user can match some of the shit the AA does
You dont even needa waste money on a xim bc theres a tutorial out there that lets you emulate a controller on ur m/kb
😀
Yeh, that's the discussion. People complain about others exploiting but then complain when an effective solution is implemented because it starts to need to delve into system files to better detect things. I think the case is different for it between DRM and Anticheat though.System altering drm is what almost killed the pc industry, PC players will not let corporations have that much control.