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Destiny |OT23| This Train is Bound for Mercury

N

Navy Bean

Member
ocean said:
It would be a clearing house where going flawless would get easier and easier until the whole achievement feels empty and meaningless. No thanks. It would be really strange to lock players out of repeating content; this game only locks out loot. By Saturday all the good clans would be done. By Sunday all the above-average GAFers and Redactors. By Monday you'd have all-casual teams rocking their Auto Rifles and stuff going to Mercury. It'd defeat the whole purpose of the tournament.

It's hard and should stay hard and inaccessible to most of us because otherwise what's the point?
Click to expand...
Why not have a Mercury playlist for people that reach it each week? Let the best of the best snipe each other all day long...
 
geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
Zocano said:
You talked the same stuff yesterday/few days ago and I still can't take it seriously. You have a real damn grudge against CoD because of it.

I'm not saying don't consider connection but, like I said before, skill is priority. It should always be priority.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I do, we had a Clan at topped platinum most months in Ghosts. Ghosts got connection right, it played well with little lag.

WE bought season passes and everything religiously for every COD....

And then came SH with COD AW Skill based match making and not 1 game ran well unless you reverse boosted or started a new character / account. Then you got games running properly for a few days....then it started unless you played badly....

They lost 20 dedicated players in my personal experience....I cant play laggy online games with people from Poland ...just does not work. Never will.

Yes, you want your etheric light and easier games....but at the expense of picking players with worse PING and having laggy games ?

Everybody in a lobby should be less than 50 PING to a host. Otherwise its rubbish.

The minute I start playing online against people from USA or eastern EU and I am UK, France and at most Germany is acceptable, after that.....Its time to find a new game to play.
 
M

MrChowderClams

Member
Zocano said:
You talked the same stuff yesterday/few days ago and I still can't take it seriously. You have a real damn grudge against CoD because of it.

I'm not saying don't consider connection but, like I said before, skill is priority. It should always be priority.
Click to expand...

I agree. Besides, can't you judge rank by their performance in trials alone and not crucible so you don't have that suicide issue?
 
MrGreencastle

MrGreencastle

Member
Lnkn52 said:
Dredg promise gameplay:

http://www.twitch.tv/kinggothalion
Click to expand...

This is what I went with for my first Elder Cipher. Mostly because I need the sidearms :p

And the grimoire for sidearms. Ahem.

That said, if I were to pick again, I'd go with one of the other two for sure. This gun is kind of underwhelming, and I've fully leveled it, too.

Lnkn52 said:
WTH a turret in Destiny. LOL
Click to expand...

Everyone forgets First Light and Blind Watch. Lol.
 
E

E92 M3

Member
I hope that in the patch they add better detection or prevention for lag-switching in Trials. Nothing ruins the mood more than cheaters in ToO.
 
S

stb

Member
Kor of Memory said:
So lets talk for a bit about how Skill-based Matchmaking and Trials of Osiris are conflicting ideas and cannot work together in their current states.

Trials of Osiris is a game-type that rewards the better players for having a higher win percentage than loss percentage.

Skill-based Matchmaking is a system designed to pair people against their equals against each other. The end result of any good Skill Based Matchmaking system will leave a player with roughly a 1:1 win/loss ratio.

Naturally, you can see that these ideas already contradict each other. How can you have a game-type that rewards a player for more wins and losses, if you are constantly pairing them up again players literally as good as they are.

The following is very anecdotal, but I'm curious to hear from some others about their experiences. I firmly believe that Bungie is heavily using a skill-based matchmaking system for every other individual playlist, and that those skill numbers are specific to each character. I say this because of the following:
  • Lately, almost all my Control and Clash matches end with no bigger than a 300 point gap.
  • I can create a new character and steam-roll for a good 20-30 games before my skill level starts catching up to me.

I guess what I'm saying is that Trials' current rewards system only works because Skill-based Matchmaking isn't active in the play-list.
Click to expand...

Iiiiiiiiii dunno.

I think we'd all agree there's skill based matchmaking, and the goal of that is ~1:1 win/loss, so the fact that you're seeing close games means it's working.

Trials was billed as a "tournament"-style activity where clutch play results in good loot. What it currently ends up being is a walk in the park for above average players to get to 8 wins. 9-0 appears to have proven harder this week for even the elite among us, but it's hard to tell if that's the shit-for-this-mode map or if people are adjusting to the different mode, but that's beside the point.

Skill based matchmaking is why basically every high-level tournament for just about anything (karate, golf, chess, etc.) has tiers. Sure, the goal of the "tournament" is to reward the best person/people there, but that doesn't mean "the 35 year old 8th dan blackbelt should be paired up against the yellow belt 12 year old", because there's no point to that. Of course he/she would win that match. All that does is literally hand good players a significant amount of free wins.

Honestly, it's really weird good players even *want* to continue to play scubs like me. There's a weird dissonance about it I'm seeing from people. I'm not saying you, specifically, Kor, but in general from my perception of posts on this topic here.

It's as though opponents to skill-based matchmaking are quick to say "yeah, the best rewards are for the most challenging mode... but I don't want to be challenged, I just want 3 rolls a week on that Mercury chest".

What skill-based matchmaking would do is create a challenging mode for all players that would be worth playing for all players. The road to Mercury would get harder for many people, but it'd sure cut back on the "git gud" nonsense, and make the 5-8 rewards more achievable for more people.

I'm not seeing a downside except for the minority of players that have only been getting to Mercury by getting lucky draws to play scrub teams. If it comes down to that sort of dice roll, you shouldn't be getting to Mercury, anyway.

Zocano said:
Eh. You're missing the part where the Trials rewards are meant to be earned and getting them by the skin of your teeth should be how it is in PvP. Fighting your equals and winning consistently should be the way, not getting lucky and trouncing people that you are just far better against in a streak.
Click to expand...

You said this far more concisely. Thanks.
 
K

Kor of Memory

Member
MrGreencastle said:
This is what I went with for my first Elder Cipher. Mostly because I need the sidearms :p

And the grimoire for sidearms. Ahem.

That said, if I were to pick again, I'd go with one of the other two for sure. This gun is kind of underwhelming, and I've fully leveled it, too.
Click to expand...

I feel slightly ashamed that this was my main motivation for picking this gun. I don't want to only have the Vestian for 5000 kills.
 
Jinjo

Jinjo

Member
ocean said:
It would be a clearing house where going flawless would get easier and easier until the whole achievement feels empty and meaningless. No thanks. It would be really strange to lock players out of repeating content; this game only locks out loot. By Saturday all the good clans would be done. By Sunday all the above-average GAFers and Redactors. By Monday you'd have all-casual teams rocking their Auto Rifles and stuff going to Mercury. It'd defeat the whole purpose of the tournament.

It's hard and should stay hard and inaccessible to most of us because otherwise what's the point?
Click to expand...

Ding ding. You're actually a Champion of the Trials when you go 9-0. Excuse me if I'm blunt but not everyone has the capacity/skill/potential to become a champion. There are plenty of people who were/are never able to complete a raid too. Thankfully now there are multiple ways to get loot in Destiny.

I never thought I'd be able to go 9-0 in trials and would have been fine if I never did, but this weekend for some reason I actually managed it. Had a great team to play with I'll say that, but I did manage to hold my own and I learned a lot. It was actually one of the most satisfying experiences in Destiny ever for me, up there with finishing VoG first time. And that was because it was actually hard & challenging. Sweaty palms throughout and had some really close moments. But the payoff was there.
 
L

LordofPwn

Member
So last night when i wasn't getting cheesed by skolas and his arc army of bullshit i did 1 match of trials with my TITAN whom i hate to PVP with because i'm terrible with that class.

So for S&Gs and because i only had time for 1 match i ran NLB and Vestian Dynasty with 2 of my clan mates who they would not call themselves good PVPers.

Now you would assume because i'm totally using amazing weapons that we would win, and you would be correct.

5-2

was last guardian standing on heavy round. 1v3. one of them still had heavy. i kill him with a rocket. I see a hunter over by A special he throws a tripmine and misses me, i shoot a rocket. kills him and apparently his teammate. Double Down. twas glorious.
 
K

Kor of Memory

Member
stb said:
Iiiiiiiiii dunno.

I think we'd all agree there's skill based matchmaking, and the goal of that is ~1:1 win/loss, so the fact that you're seeing close games means it's working.

Trials was billed as a "tournament"-style activity where clutch play results in good loot. What it currently ends up being is a walk in the park for above average players to get to 8 wins. 9-0 appears to have proven harder this week for even the elite among us, but it's hard to tell if that's the shit-for-this-mode map or if people are adjusting to the different mode, but that's beside the point.

Skill based matchmaking is why basically every high-level tournament for just about anything (karate, golf, chess, etc.) has tiers. Sure, the goal of the "tournament" is to reward the best person/people there, but that doesn't mean "the 35 year old 8th dan blackbelt should be paired up against the yellow belt 12 year old", because there's no point to that. Of course he/she would win that match. All that does is literally hand good players a significant amount of free wins.

Honestly, it's really weird good players even *want* to continue to play scubs like me. There's a weird dissonance about it I'm seeing from people. I'm not saying you, specifically, Kor, but in general from my perception of posts on this topic here.

It's as though opponents to skill-based matchmaking are quick to say "yeah, the best rewards are for the most challenging mode... but I don't want to be challenged, I just want 3 rolls a week on that Mercury chest".

What skill-based matchmaking would do is create a challenging mode for all players that would be worth playing for all players. The road to Mercury would get harder for many people, but it'd sure cut back on the "git gud" nonsense, and make the 5-8 rewards more achievable for more people.

I'm not seeing a downside except for the minority of players that have only been getting to Mercury by getting lucky draws to play scrub teams. If it comes down to that sort of dice roll, you shouldn't be getting to Mercury, anyway.



You said this far more concisely. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Again. Not saying that I think that ToO has the right or wrong system in place. I'm just pointing out how skill-based matchmaking and Trials' current reward system are conflicting ideas.

You would have to redesign the entire reward system if you incorporated skill based matchmaking.
 
R

rasengan1337

Member
MrS said:
That's true, trains would pretty much have to stop, but on the flip side of that it would mean you're not going to have excellent players intentionally ruining the chances of lower skilled players. I was just putting the idea out there because I wanted to see what people who maybe aren't great at PVP would think of it.
Click to expand...

I see both sides of it. I'm leaning on leaving it as is, because having a goal, despite however lofty it is, is a good thing.
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
I think it would be awesome if you had an 8-0 ticket that you would only match up with another team that had 8-0's on it.
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
ocean said:
And lots, lots of strength. I know you don't usually Destiny much on Tuesdays, but will you be playing IB today? I know it's in 2 hours so it's a bit early to start a train but I'd like to hop on right away with a team instead of starting solo.
Click to expand...
Hehe, yeah Destiny Free Tuesday may have to take a hit... I want to hop on IB, and get a 32 Prison or two done as well.

And... I'll... beat Bloodborne... eventually.. soon

But I am at woooooooooooooooork
Lnkn52 said:
I'm getting the helms since I haven't ascended any of my other ones.
Click to expand...
Yeah... fair point, may grab them if I manage the cores. Knucklehead and Saint-IV are the only ascended ones on them
 
L

LTWood12

Member
Hawkian said:
Hehe, yeah Destiny Free Tuesday may have to take a hit... I want to hop on IB, and get a 32 Prison or two done as well.

And... I'll... beat Bloodborne... eventually.. soon

But I am at woooooooooooooooork

Yeah... fair point, may grab them if I manage the cores. Knucklehead and Saint-IV are the only ascended ones on them
Click to expand...

Why not do a 35 PoE run w/ me tonight instead? You'll still get your armor core...
 
P

patchday

Member
I find ToO kind of broken personally due to the revives. If enemy team running +revive gear your team is screwed

I am sure ToO will be super fun for clans to rack in easy kills. But I enjoy casually playing the game with gaf. So ToO probably won't work for me in the long run.

Kind of waiting on Halo 5. If they don't frak it up I'll probably swing that direction and pony up for an X1

But maybe Comet will improve pvp and bring in the SWAT mode. would make this game perfect for me.
 
neoism

neoism

Member
Definity said:
Picked up a scout rifle called NL Shadow 701 X. Awesome rate of fire and it has firefly. Love using it but pretty sure I would end up getting carpal tunnel pulling the trigger all the time that fast.

EDIT:
Just got booted. Patch time?
Click to expand...

yeah it's ok used like 200+ weapon parts trying the get good abilities on it.......:/
 
O

ocean

Banned
Jinjo said:
Ding ding. You're actually a Champion of the Trials when you go 9-0. Excuse me if I'm blunt but not everyone has the capacity/skill/potential to become a champion. There are plenty of people who were/are never able to complete a raid too. Thankfully now there are multiple ways to get loot in Destiny.

I never thought I'd be able to go 9-0 in trials and would have been fine if I never did, but this weekend for some reason I actually managed it. Had a great team to play with I'll say that, but I did manage to hold my own and I learned a lot. It was actually one of the most satisfying experiences in Destiny ever for me, up there with finishing VoG first time. And that was because it was actually hard & challenging. Sweaty palms throughout and had some really close moments. But the payoff was there.
Click to expand...

I think these reactions are due to the fact that until now, everybody could get everything in the game. Even Hard Raids aren't really hard, and Iron Banner was more about patience than skill. Now all of a sudden there's sweet looking armor and guns with amazing perks that are out of reach for most of us.

Would I like a Solar Jewel and a Void Scholar? Am I jelly as fuck when I see someone use their Eye of Sol or ToO RL? Hell yes! But I'd rather accept that those are truly top-tier rewards reserved for the very best than to dilute the difficulty until we can all get it.

And maybe one day, if I ever get to Mercury.... it'll truly feel like a real accomplishment. What you guys are suggesting would rob me of that satisfaction. I'd much rather face the very high probability of never feeling that than to just eliminate the possibility outright by making this easier.
 
K

Kor of Memory

Member
patchday said:
I find ToO kind of broken personally due to the revives. If enemy team running +revive gear your team is screwed

I am sure ToO will be super fun for clans to rack in easy kills. But I enjoy casually playing the game with gaf. So ToO probably won't work for me in the long run.

Kind of waiting on Halo 5. If they don't frak it up I'll probably swing that direction and pony up for an X1

But maybe Comet will improve pvp and bring in the SWAT mode. would make this game perfect for me.
Click to expand...

I feel the opposite about revive gear. I see revive gear as a crutch. Same reason I don't like Radiance. I don't like any gear or equipment or talent that is based off of me dying. The goal is to not die at all. So why would I waste an exotic slot on something that I'm trying to avoid the situation of all together.

I'll take double lightning grenades over fast revive any day. I'd rather advance slowly with my team so that we can all revive safely, rather than bum rush and get myself killed so my teammates can revive me faster.

It's not that I think bad players use it. More like. Fast revive gear is a sign of a good player. No fast revive gear is a sign of a great player.
 
noomi

noomi

Member
patchday said:
I find ToO kind of broken personally due to the revives. If enemy team running +revive gear your team is screwed

I am sure ToO will be super fun for clans to rack in easy kills. But I enjoy casually playing the game with gaf. So ToO probably won't work for me in the long run.

Kind of waiting on Halo 5. If they don't frak it up I'll probably swing that direction and pony up for an X1

But maybe Comet will improve pvp and bring in the SWAT mode. would make this game perfect for me.
Click to expand...

I actually really like the revives it makes for some super tense moments, and every time you die the revive timer becomes longer so you can just keep dieing and reviving constantly.

What I don't like is the heavy ammo round. I think it kills the pace of the trials, and would rather just do without it completely.
 
P

patchday

Member
ocean said:
I think these reactions are due to the fact that until now, everybody could get everything in the game. Even Hard Raids aren't really hard, and Iron Banner was more about patience than skill. Now all of a sudden there's sweet looking armor and guns with amazing perks that are out of reach for most of us.

Would I like a Solar Jewel and a Void Scholar? Am I jelly as fuck when I see someone use their Eye of Sol or ToO RL? Hell yes! But I'd rather accept that those are truly top-tier rewards reserved for the very best than to dilute the difficulty until we can all get it.

And maybe one day, if I ever get to Mercury.... it'll truly feel like a real accomplishment. What you guys are suggesting would rob me of that satisfaction. I'd much rather face the very high probability of never feeling that than to just eliminate the possibility outright by making this easier.
Click to expand...

I personally don't care bout any of those guns or armor. I'm more interested in acquiring exotics since they can potentially change the game for me by adding new abilities and perks. Yeah, I do have some ToO armor but soon as I get some Etheric Light I'm vaulting it probably. Don't want to look like everyone else
 
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