Support NeoGAF

[Admodieus]

Gaf friends need 3 for Fresh Kings Fall run later tonight. Maybe about 90 min from now. preferably experienced so we can get it done faster, but one newbie would be fine.

1. LTWood12
2. Hawkian
3. T-44
4.
5.
6.

I'm in, what time EST are you starting? PSN: Admodieus

 

[Twilight Gap]

Warning: Wall of Text Analysis for the King's Fall Raid below:

Played through the Raid with some on DGAF on Friday night. Made good time until we got to the Daughters. I've come to the conclusion that it is by far the worst raid encounter in the game. I hope this doesn't come across as salt. I've failed hard and long at bosses before. But failing at the Sisters felt different. Felt bad. And I tried to think why.

Each raid has a final room with two boss fights in it, and King's Fall is no exception. Vault of Glass has Gatekeepers barring the way to Atheon. Ir Yut guards Crota's Crystal before he's summoned. And the Daughters something something before Oryx. (Maybe the lore can explain, but it's not rendered in the encounter. The first failure.) The function of the first fight is to teach any new boss mechanics before the final boss appears and/or to familiarize people with the arena. Ir Yut really only familiarizes players with the arena, but it works thematically at least. Gatekeepers teach the portal & relic mechanics and crucially they have their own mechanics just to them. Kill the Gatekeepers. Defend the Conflux. Those are on top of the shared Atheon mechanics of managing debuffs, guarding plates, etc.

The Daughters, however, have 0 mechanics to themselves. They tear people, then wait impotently until someone grabs a relic. Then they flail about on their platforms as we shoot them to death. This is the exact mechanic that we use on Oryx. There are no additional mechanics or targets. They are boring, bland bosses and you could cut them from the raid and no one would care. (And let's not discuss how trivial the damage phase is when everyone is running Touch of Malice.) Worse, there's really very little variation that's allowed. Five players have positions defined for them. And one guy can float. Gatekeepers can be tackled any number of ways. One side then the other or both at the same time, etc. The Daughters only variance is where the runner should stand, but there's an optimal choice now, so yeah.

So why are they there then? The Daughters were obviously implemented to combat the Atheon "bug" of players being able to make their own fate and decide who got to run the relic. The Daughters randomly tearing a fireteam member forces all players to learn how to run the platforms. An admirable goal, but it does such a terrible job at this that I'm staggered. Our team was made up of people who had only successfully completed the Daughters once or were complete newbies. We wiped on the Daughters for 1.5 hours. And that's not because what you're asked to do is hard. It's because it doesn't allow for learning. If you get torn and fail, you may or may not get another chance for 40 minutes. You can't count on being able to try again when your mistake is fresh to learn from it. This is why so many of our runs failed. You do learn it after a while, but if you gave people the chance to consistently run, even if you made everyone do it, it'd be so much faster. The difficulty for the Daughters comes from them randomly picking unprepared people and then not picking them again in sufficient time for them to learn.

Additionally, the mechanic is unfamiliar and small mistakes are not recoverable. Fail to kill adds well with the Brand in the War Priest, well, your damage phase is short. Fail to get the Gaze on Golgoroth, your damage phase is short. In both cases, the mechanic is a) familiar to people (shoot stuff) and b) can be recovered either independently or by the team on the next damage phase. The Daughters ask people to a) do the unfamiliar (jumping in 3rd person, in a combat phase, and with so much stuff on your screen you can barely see) and b) any tiny failure is unrecoverable and results in a wipe.

To be clear: The Daughters are not hard. At all. Learning the platforming is hard. That's it. Once everyone does know it, then the encounter is trivial. It's an easy minute-and-half. So it fails in that regard as well. (The Gatekeepers is still a fun, dynamic challenge, even when we did it as 34s.)

From a standpoint of justifying their own existence in the raid, the Daughters fight doesn't provide any in-game lore reason for them being there. It fails to provide even one unique mechanic to make them a satisfying boss. Finally, its challenge (and thus interest for raiders who are expected to run this weekly, if not more than that) only exists for new players.

 

[Ditters]

Looking to run Kings end, two Warlocks. My son and I. He is only 9 tho. He is a good player, but I wouldn't want to run with a group not prepared for him to make a few mistakes... It will be his first kill of Oryx.

PSN Cybrwzrd

I'm down, I sent you and FR

 

[RickyRozay]

Need one for a nightfall

 

[Ruthless_Barbarian]

Is the red bull sparrow faster than what we have now? If not then no thanks.

Base speed is faster by 10 points, but doesn't have the raid sparrow exploding boost.

But hey, you can do tricks in the air while being shot at by enemies

 

[Orochinagis]

Warning: Wall of Text Analysis for the King's Fall Raid below:

Played through the Raid with some on DGAF on Friday night. Made good time until we got to the Daughters. I've come to the conclusion that it is by far the worst raid encounter in the game. I hope this doesn't come across as salt. I've failed hard and long at bosses before. But failing at the Sisters felt different. Felt bad. And I tried to think why.

Each raid has a final room with two boss fights in it, and King's Fall is no exception. Vault of Glass has Gatekeepers barring the way to Atheon. Ir Yut guards Crota's Crystal before he's summoned. And the Daughters something something before Oryx. (Maybe the lore can explain, but it's not rendered in the encounter. The first failure.) The function of the first fight is to teach any new boss mechanics before the final boss appears and/or to familiarize people with the arena. Ir Yut really only familiarizes players with the arena, but it works thematically at least. Gatekeepers teach the portal & relic mechanics and crucially they have their own mechanics just to them. Kill the Gatekeepers. Defend the Conflux. Those are on top of the shared Atheon mechanics of managing debuffs, guarding plates, etc.

The Daughters, however, have 0 mechanics to themselves. They tear people, then wait impotently until someone grabs a relic. Then they flail about on their platforms as we shoot them to death. This is the exact mechanic that we use on Oryx. There are no additional mechanics or targets. They are boring, bland bosses and you could cut them from the raid and no one would care. (And let's not discuss how trivial the damage phase is when everyone is running Touch of Malice.) Worse, there's really very little variation that's allowed. Five players have positions defined for them. And one guy can float. Gatekeepers can be tackled any number of ways. One side then the other or both at the same time, etc. The Daughters only variance is where the runner should stand, but there's an optimal choice now, so yeah.

So why are they there then? The Daughters were obviously implemented to combat the Atheon "bug" of players being able to make their own fate and decide who got to run the relic. The Daughters randomly tearing a fireteam member forces all players to learn how to run the platforms. An admirable goal, but it does such a terrible job at this that I'm staggered. Our team was made up of people who had only successfully completed the Daughters once or were complete newbies. We wiped on the Daughters for 1.5 hours. And that's not because what you're asked to do is hard. It's because it doesn't allow for learning. If you get torn and fail, you may or may not get another chance for 40 minutes. You can't count on being able to try again when your mistake is fresh to learn from it. This is why so many of our runs failed. You do learn it after a while, but if you gave people the chance to consistently run, even if you made everyone do it, it'd be so much faster. The difficulty for the Daughters comes from them randomly picking unprepared people and then not picking them again in sufficient time for them to learn.

Additionally, the mechanic is unfamiliar and small mistakes are not recoverable. Fail to kill adds well with the Brand in the War Priest, well, your damage phase is short. Fail to get the Gaze on Golgoroth, your damage phase is short. In both cases, the mechanic is a) familiar to people (shoot stuff) and b) can be recovered either independently or by the team on the next damage phase. The Daughters ask people to a) do the unfamiliar (jumping in 3rd person, in a combat phase, and with so much stuff on your screen you can barely see) and b) any tiny failure is unrecoverable and results in a wipe.

To be clear: The Daughters are not hard. At all. Learning the platforming is hard. That's it. Once everyone does know it, then the encounter is trivial. It's an easy minute-and-half. So it fails in that regard as well. (The Gatekeepers is still a fun, dynamic challenge, even when we did it as 34s.)

From a standpoint of justifying their own existence in the raid, the Daughters fight doesn't provide any in-game lore reason for them being there. It fails to provide even one unique mechanic to make them a satisfying boss. Finally, its challenge (and thus interest for raiders who are expected to run this weekly, if not more than that) only exists for new players.

The boss from the Souless Cell should be in the raid instead of the Sisters, would be interesting to fight him in the dark and use the cursed thrall to create some light beacons for a while, hell Bungie could allow to reuse the TDB lanterns to fuel them with cursed thrall seeing how much reused conten from previous raids were used in this campaign.

I wonder how hard would be the randomness of being runner in the Oryx fight. Anyway the sister runner selection is so random I was never the runner in one of my runs, thank god I am a warlock and jumpign was so easy when I was selected in Kadey run still

 

[figadapaura]

Consistently fast is better than the raid boost anyway.

Is the red bull sparrow faster than what we have now? If not then no thanks.

With the upgrade after the quest, it's just as fast as all the other top speed sparrows.

 

[RiccochetJ]

Woo!

Spoiler

That was a crazy raid. We started with a group of people that seemed really cool. They were explaining everything and were really patient. That is until we hit Oryx. Apparently they didn't want to spend the time to teach us that particular encounter. Funny thing? We pulled in more people and finished the raid before they did after they dumped us.

Wow! Putting spoiler tags around quote tags around image tags makes something weird happen on this board!

And somehow I managed to post this initially in OT 33. Sorry about that.

 

[Kadey]

Got burnt marshmallow shader.

 

[dyergram]

need help badly on the fallen saber quest its utter nails and i keep getting scrubs join psn dyergram

 

[todd360]

Consistently fast is better than the raid boost anyway.



With the upgrade after the quest, it's just as fast as all the other top speed sparrows.

Sigh. Of course it's not faster. Why would anyone want to do all that crap for something just as fast as what we already have?

 

[Ruthless_Barbarian]

Got burnt marshmallow shader.

that thing is so ugly

hint: use on hunter for max ugliness

 

[Twilight Gap]

Oryx was putting his big boy pants on and his daughters answered the door instead.

 

[Ruthless_Barbarian]

Oryx was putting his big boy pants on and his daughters answered the door instead.

To me it just feels like mechanics were cut from the sisters encounter for normal mode because they designed hard mode first. I'm therefore expecting more encounters and mechanics in hard mode instead of just more waves of adds or bosses with extra health.

 

[FyreWulff]

I feel the daughters are fine. It gets people to get out of their shell and run the mechanic, and since it's designed to be figure-outable on an initial run, it provides a training step for the next phase.

I regularly run the raid and it does a pretty good job of making things interesting since your go to platformer isn't guaranteed to do it for you. They let you choose who it is for Oryx since a random runner would be WAY too harsh and confusing amongst all what's going on in that phase. And we have a dedicated runner for that.

It also teaches you to bring the bubble to the knight when he shows up for Oryx.

 

[Orochinagis]

Omnigul and Ir tur have bigger boobs than the Piramid Head Sisters

 

[Ghazi]

Anyone want to play some Crucible?

 

[Ditters]

Looking to do oryx, I have the cp

PSN - GergR123

 

[Hawkian]

lol, the sleeper simulant is goddamn fantastic.

please, someone help me at the undying mind boss for Hunger Pangs. Just have to whittle down the boss and then kill a taken target before killing the Mind. it won't take long at all, it's just painstaking alone. pretty please

 

[BreezyLimbo]

To me it just feels like mechanics were cut from the sisters encounter for normal mode because they designed hard mode first. I'm therefore expecting more encounters and mechanics in hard mode instead of just more waves of adds or bosses with extra health.

This is what I'm hoping for. All the bosses have the same mechanic-Do a thing, hit a damage phase, repeat. It's kinda boring on repeat, and hopefully they don't continue on that path for future bosses. Hopefully Hard Mode fundamentally changes encounters, but it's way too easy on repeat once you know what to do, easier than VoG for that matter.

 

[NeOak]

that thing is so ugly

hint: use on hunter for max ugliness

MY EYES

 

[figadapaura]

Sigh. Of course it's not faster. Why would anyone want to do all that crap for something just as fast as what we already have?

For people who really liked the Tumbler? The Red Bull sparrow is at least faster than that sparrow.

 

[Jetman]

Need 2 more for Crota at bridge. I know this can be solo'ed with a relic holder swinging across, but we can't pull it off Think any of ya'll could give us a hand?

 

[Hawkian]

MY EYES

thank you.

 

[KZXcellent]

Gaf friends need 3 for Fresh Kings Fall run later tonight. Maybe about 90 min from now. preferably experienced so we can get it done faster, but one newbie would be fine.

1. LTWood12
2. Hawkian
3. T-44
4.
5.
6.

Got room for another? PSN: GDJoel

 

[dyergram]

can somebody help with this last bit of sleeper stimulant the fallen sabre bit people keep joining then leaving... psn dyergram

 

[JohnOfMars]

lol, the sleeper simulant is goddamn fantastic.

please, someone help me at the undying mind boss for Hunger Pangs. Just have to whittle down the boss and then kill a taken target before killing the Mind. it won't take long at all, it's just painstaking alone. pretty please

Still need someone?

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Gaf friends need 3 for Fresh Kings Fall run later tonight. Maybe about 90 min from now. preferably experienced so we can get it done faster, but one newbie would be fine.

1. LTWood12
2. Hawkian
3. T-44
4.
5.
6.

You guys up for helping me and my son out? Psn Cybrwzrd and Cybrwzrd2? Hes a newbie at raiding and young, but he is a solid player when he knows what to do.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Need 2 for Kings Fall starting at the sisters on psn. We're doing the chest before the sisters now if ya hurry.

 

[Hawkian]

Still need someone?

no, thanks though.

 

[exYle]

I posted a new strategy for Golgoroth that me and my friends tried out today, which I called the one and a half gaze-holder strategy. Tell me what you guys think: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3oecm7/new_strategy_for_golgoroth_1_and_a_half/

 

[Hawkian]

I posted a new strategy for Golgoroth that me and my friends tried out today, which I called the one and a half gaze-holder strategy. Tell me what you guys think: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3oecm7/new_strategy_for_golgoroth_1_and_a_half/

Here are my thoughts:

[removed]

 

[figadapaura]

Here are my thoughts:

[removed]

true to life

 

[maomaoIYP]

I posted a new strategy for Golgoroth that me and my friends tried out today, which I called the one and a half gaze-holder strategy. Tell me what you guys think: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3oecm7/new_strategy_for_golgoroth_1_and_a_half/

Did your post get removed or something.
Golgoroth is straightforward enough with the 1 gazer isn't it.

 

[Truelize]

So are we expecting the Black Spindle need to come tomorrow?

 

[FyreWulff]

I posted a new strategy for Golgoroth that me and my friends tried out today, which I called the one and a half gaze-holder strategy. Tell me what you guys think: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3oecm7/new_strategy_for_golgoroth_1_and_a_half/

Your post seems to have gotten lost in the dark corners of time

 

[Hawkian]

Did your post get removed or something.
Golgoroth is straightforward enough with the 1 gazer isn't it.

Too straightforward, in fact.

 

[NeOak]

thank you.

You're welcome

So are we expecting the Black Spindle need to come tomorrow?

the nerf?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Your post seems to have gotten lost in the dark corners of time

It's time gated we won't learn it until next week

 

[Magik]

Oh my god tlw is God awful at all ranges.

 

[shem935]

It's time gated we won't learn it until next week

Waiting for armsday.

 

[figadapaura]

Shaxx just called me Hive Bane.

Then I got booted.

 

[igordennis]

Oh my god tlw is God awful at all ranges.

Its pretty good at long range man. I outgunned a sniper one of these days with it.

Spoiler

No i didnt

 

[thoseAREmySHOES]

Too straightforward, in fact.

I honestly wonder if they are going to change the encounter at all - I really doubt they will, but it certainly isn't the way they intended it to be completed.

 

[figadapaura]

Maybe the pillar charges every time you lose his gaze as well as people dying.

In HM obviously.

 

[Hawkian]

Weird, Eris gives you a pre-charged Stolen Rune for that Quest... won't complain.

Looking for a little CoO, please to be help me!

Need to charge a Stolen, then use my two Stolens for certain combos (will abandon if I don't get them, but I don't have any of these yet so I have options). Then do a T3 (already have an Antiquated charged).

Going to be down there charging my stolen. Join meeeee!

 

[FyreWulff]

Maybe the pillar charges every time you lose his gaze as well as people dying.

In HM obviously.

oh god

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Anyone looking for 1 for Oryx kill? Ran with a great group today that let me stay even though I had 0 sound and no microphone. I left them at Oryx though because I knew I'd hold them back. I'm home now, and ready to wipe him again.

 

[LTWood12]

I'm in, what time EST are you starting? PSN: Admodieus

Got room for another? PSN: GDJoel

You guys up for helping me and my son out? Psn Cybrwzrd and Cybrwzrd2? Hes a newbie at raiding and young, but he is a solid player when he knows what to do.

Sorry guys we filled up on the last page. Thanks for your responses though!

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Shaxx just called me Hive Bane.

Then I got booted.

You mean Crucible Master "If you're Hive you don't get out alive" Shaxx kicked you out? Horrifying.

I honestly wonder if they are going to change the encounter at all - I really doubt they will, but it certainly isn't the way they intended it to be completed.

This would be bad. If Bungie came out and said 'We didn't intend you to beat it this way, therefore we're fixing it", that'd be...shitty of them. I can understand Templar and spamming grenades on what is a clear exploit, but the 1 orb strat is just as risky as the 2 orb strat. Or something.