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[flkraven]

You should be able to do a quest from Xur every week (like a Xur Nightfall or something), which allows you to buy his exotics at 310 instead of 280.

 

[j0hnny_385]

DGAF, just came back from the gym after a 4 month break. ;_;

Hurts more than post game drops. ;_;

 

[WipedOut]

This Thursday's Weekly Update is going to be very important in my estimation of Destiny and Bungie's attitude toward the live game:

The February Update includes more than Crimson Days. There are more bullets we’ll be firing to impact the quality of your Guardian lifestyle. Pay us a visit next week for a preview.​

I'm not interested in a Social Shooter with a Live Event model where Quality of Life updates aren't taken seriously. It sounds like it's being addressed, which pleases me, but I can't forget the weapons part nerf. (In my mind, the Weapons Parts nerf is the worst thing to have happened in Year 2. It's on par with Rexurbishing & Commendations.)

I realized that Bungie has frittered away what goodwill I had toward them when I can take the above post, which is ostensibly good news, and I write a post with such a negative tone.

There are so many low hanging fruit:

PvE
Fix the Nightfall/Weekly Shaxx Rewards
Make strikes, particularly heroics, more rewarding (maybe better chance at Strike Specific loot?)
Change up Challenge Mode Rewards (artifacts, class items, ghosts)

PvP
Actually increase drop rates
Roll out new CB priority MM to more playlists
Nerf special ammo spawns (You shouldn't be able to use a special as a primary)
Nerf Heavy ammo spawns in 3v3s
Nerf HMG ammo in Crucible (you shouldn't be able to keep a HMG for a whole game)
Have Planetary mats drop post game

General:
Rotate Vendor Stock
Have Xur sell higher light items
Have all the shaders be in the drop table (Crucible & Cryptarch ones, I'm looking at you.)
Lower the rare planetary mat requirement for swords. (I still only have one exotic sword)
Be more generous with legendary marks, strange coins, etc. (Make it rain)
Actually have the Cryptarch give better rewards on rankup? Remember when Bungie said that was a thing?

Bigger ideas (but not new content or changing designs):
Let shaders affect class items again. (Sweet Jesus, who let that change?)
Put Year 1 strikes in Playlist. Don't even have to modify them or Takenify them. Just put them in the playlists, including Nightfall.
Allow Year 1 class items to be infused

None of these are new content. None of these are invalidating design decisions, no matter how bad they are. There are huge big things that this doesn't touch (raid drops in general as an example.)

Just making our current game, as it is, a bit friendlier to the players.

I want more variety. And so that's why I want more cosmetic options and more rewards so we're not all running 1kYS vendor roll & Hung Jury.

So yeah, Thursday will be very interesting. How much does Bungie care about the live game and players beyond exploiting us for Microtransactions?

 

[Ji66a-Man]

You also forgot about being able to buy Armor Materials.

 

[vctor182]

Last day and psn goes to maintenance?

 

[Frenden]

And hand cannon bloom/bullet RNG.

 

[JohnOfMars]

Yeah. All of that is not going to happen, but there's so much that does need to happen.

I'm tired of keeping my expectations low.

 

[WipedOut]

You also forgot about being able to buy Armor Materials.

This needs to happen, like yesterday.

Yeah. All of that is not going to happen, but there's so much that does need to happen.

I'm tired of keeping my expectations low.

Trust me I wish every single one of those things would happen but at this point I've lost all hope that Bungie would even do just a couple of those.

 

[JohnOfMars]

This needs to happen, like yesterday.

Or just up the drop rate? Like I shouldn't have to buy stuff unless I go outside the normal drop rate.

 

[LTWood12]

This Thursday's Weekly Update is going to be very important in my estimation of Destiny and Bungie's attitude toward the live game:

The February Update includes more than Crimson Days. There are more bullets we’ll be firing to impact the quality of your Guardian lifestyle. Pay us a visit next week for a preview.​

I'm not interested in a Social Shooter with a Live Event model where Quality of Life updates aren't taken seriously. It sounds like it's being addressed, which pleases me, but I can't forget the weapons part nerf. (In my mind, the Weapons Parts nerf is the worst thing to have happened in Year 2. It's on par with Rexurbishing & Commendations.)

I realized that Bungie has frittered away what goodwill I had toward them when I can take the above post, which is ostensibly good news, and I write a post with such a negative tone.

There are so many low hanging fruit:

PvE
Fix the Nightfall/Weekly Shaxx Rewards
Make strikes, particularly heroics, more rewarding (maybe better chance at Strike Specific loot?)
Change up Challenge Mode Rewards (artifacts, class items, ghosts)

PvP
Actually increase drop rates
Roll out new CB priority MM to more playlists
Nerf special ammo spawns (You shouldn't be able to use a special as a primary)
Nerf Heavy ammo spawns in 3v3s
Nerf HMG ammo in Crucible (you shouldn't be able to keep a HMG for a whole game)
Have Planetary mats drop post game

General:
Rotate Vendor Stock
Have Xur sell higher light items
Have all the shaders be in the drop table (Crucible & Cryptarch ones, I'm looking at you.)
Lower the rare planetary mat requirement for swords. (I still only have one exotic sword)
Be more generous with legendary marks, strange coins, etc. (Make it rain)
Actually have the Cryptarch give better rewards on rankup? Remember when Bungie said that was a thing?

Bigger ideas (but not new content or changing designs):
Let shaders affect class items again. (Sweet Jesus, who let that change?)
Put Year 1 strikes in Playlist. Don't even have to modify them or Takenify them. Just put them in the playlists, including Nightfall.
Allow Year 1 class items to be infused

None of these are new content. None of these are invalidating design decisions, no matter how bad they are. There are huge big things that this doesn't touch (raid drops in general as an example.)

Just making our current game, as it is, a bit friendlier to the players.

I want more variety. And so that's why I want more cosmetic options and more rewards so we're not all running 1kYS vendor roll & Hung Jury.

So yeah, Thursday will be very interesting. How much does Bungie care about the live game and players beyond exploiting us for Microtransactions?

I don't like all these nerfs John.

 

[mehrmantrout]

Last day and psn goes to maintenance?

RIP the mercy train.

Also, they've missed the chance with so many weekly updates to address shit. I'm expecting nothing besides a load of snarking from Deej with a side helping of stats about how great IB Rift was

Just drop the Ophsidan Aspects, sort out crucible and I'll be happy

 

[maomaoIYP]

So yeah, Thursday will be very interesting. How much does Bungie care about the live game and players beyond exploiting us for Microtransactions?

I thought it was abundantly clear that they clearly don't give a shit about the live game. I don't expect a single thing listed here to happen.

 

[Zel3]

Having finally reached light level 300, I can say this game has one of the worst loot systems in any videogame. The excitement of getting a legendary engram is completely gone. I know no matter what it is it's just going to end up being an item below my light level. Yes I can turn it into legendary marks but then we get to the same problem... venders dont sell any items that help me level up, all their stuff is 280, even items from Iron Banner vendor.

I should not be getting getting multiple iron banner drops that are way below my level. If I have 309 light level greaves and I'm level 300 why am I getting 286 greaves ? If the marks I get from dismantling those greaves would help me progress on my level it wouldn't be a problem but legendary marks are useless. The RNG in this game does not respect the players time and makes it way harder than it should be to level up.

/rant from a player finally reaching 300

 

[LTWood12]

Realistically, here are the bones I think they would throw. It won't be enough.

There will be some slight primary buffs.

They'll add a few more exotics. Lord of Wolves, QB Bow, & Ice Breaker (nerfed to hell but people's nostalgia will still make the reaction positive.)

Phogoth will get added to the heroic playlist.

 

[SonComet]

Realistically, here are the bones I think they would throw. It won't be enough.

There will be some slight primary buffs.

They'll add a few more exotics. Lord of Wolves, QB Bow, & Ice Breaker (nerfed to hell but people's nostalgia will still make the reaction positive.)

Phogoth will get added to the heroic playlist.

Ahem, add the mythoclast and necrochasm. That's all I need . The mytho could use a stability buff though imho since they've nerfed the ammo count on it repeatedly.

 

[Number45]

Man I hardly get any weapons that I want to use drop, so I have an abundance of weapon parts at the moment! It's not quite 1,656... but it's close!

Spoiler

1700

 

[GustyGardens]

I caved and decided to get my Warlock up to Rank 3 this weekend, and on my first match at Rank 1 I got a 320 Ghost as an post-match reward. That's pretty decent!

I ended up hitting Rank 5 after turning brown bounties and a handful of green ones. I got a 310 bond.

 

[WeTeHa]

Screw it, I'm done with actually playing Iron Banner for now.. Apart from being super frustrating with randoms, the drops are just ridiculously bad. Over the past couple of hours I completed 15 or so matches and got 2 legendary drops (313 ghost, 282 fusion rifle). The time investment is just not worth it at all. At least I completed 5 daily bounties to turn in next time to save me some time getting to rank 5.

If I'm still awake when the mercy train starts I'll maybe join for a couple of matche to just dance around :O

 

[LTWood12]

Ahem, add the mythoclast and necrochasm. That's all I need . The mytho could use a stability buff though imho since they've nerfed the ammo count on it repeatedly.

I said "realistically." Both of those weapons would be great to get in year 2, which is precisely why I don't think we will.

 

[DeviantBoi]

Which is the better version of Colovance's Duty

1. My drop (316):

a. Red Dot-OES / Ranged Lens RLS3 / QuickDraw IS
b. Triple Tap
c. Perfect Balance / Injection Mold / Rifled Barrel
d. Reactive Reload

2. Lord Saladin (280):

a. Red Dot-OES / Ranged Lens RLR5 / Truesight IS
b. Zen Moment
c. Field Scout / Braced Frame / Small Bore
d. Hidden Hand

 

[LTWood12]

Which is the better version of Colovance's Duty

1. My drop (316):

a. Red Dot-OES / Ranged Lens RLS3 / QuickDraw IS
b. Triple Tap
c. Perfect Balance / Injection Mold / Rifled Barrel
d. Reactive Reload

2. Lord Saladin (280):

a. Red Dot-OES / Ranged Lens RLR5 / Truesight IS
b. Zen Moment
c. Field Scout / Braced Frame / Small Bore
d. Hidden Hand

Saladin's is probably better for pvp, but not so much that I think it's worth the marks plus all the infusing you'd need to do. The one you got is pretty good, and better than the vendor one for PvE.

 

[Ghazi]

Realistically, here are the bones I think they would throw. It won't be enough.

There will be some slight primary buffs.

They'll add a few more exotics. Lord of Wolves, QB Bow, & Ice Breaker (nerfed to hell but people's nostalgia will still make the reaction positive.)

Phogoth will get added to the heroic playlist.

Didn't they say they weren't adding Icebreaker again as a y2 weapon? It broke their encounters too much, I doubt they'd ever add it again.

 

[todd360]

DGAF, just came back from the gym after a 4 month break. ;_;

Hurts more than post game drops. ;_;

Don't be a babby. Now drop and give me twenty pushups.

 

[Highwind]

Anyone doing trials today?

Would like to do bounties and get atleast 5 wins on both my Titan and Warlock for the helmets.

 

[SonComet]

I said "realistically." Both of those weapons would be great to get in year 2, which is precisely why I don't think we will.

Yeah I know. Not realistic. But I just want to have fun again .

 

[LTWood12]

Didn't they say they weren't adding Icebreaker again as a y2 weapon? It broke their encounters too much, I doubt they'd ever add it again.

They say a lot of things. Also, they nerfed the recharge rate per round to 8 seconds in 2.0, whereas it was originally 3, then 5 in year 1. As far as the year 2 strikes, nightfalls, etc. You pretty much have to keep moving for all of them, unlike things like the Nexus, Archon Priest, Phogoth, and others. I don't think it would break any of those encounters, and even if it did, at this point I'm starting to wonder how much they'd even care.

We might not get it back. But it seems like an easy way to get one day of positive reactions from the community.

 

[WipedOut]

PSN down? Guess I'll go play on the bone

 

[ERMint13]

Anyone have issues with IB drops? I have gotten a handful of scouts and boots but I can't get a fusion and I've been at rank 4 for at least 2 days on all characters.

It's like the game knows I run mostly fusion in PvP and refuses to give me a hand. I'll probably just end up buying the vendor version at this point since it doesn't seem like it will drop at all.

 

[milkham]

Anyone have issues with IB drops? I have gotten a handful of scouts and boots but I can't get a fusion and I've been at rank 4 for at least 2 days on all characters.

It's like the game knows I run mostly fusion in PvP and refuses to give me a hand. I'll probably just end up buying the vendor version at this point since it doesn't seem like it will drop at all.

i've only managed to get one weapon from after match rewards while getting 3 characters to rank 5 and the vendor scout was better. don't think i ever saw the fusion rifle drop for anyone though.

 

[Frostt]

Anyone have issues with IB drops? I have gotten a handful of scouts and boots but I can't get a fusion and I've been at rank 4 for at least 2 days on all characters.

It's like the game knows I run mostly fusion in PvP and refuses to give me a hand. I'll probably just end up buying the vendor version at this point since it doesn't seem like it will drop at all.

I got 5 fusion rifles and the one they sell at the tower is the best of them all.

 

[WipedOut]

No weapon drops at all.

2 chest pieces (warlock and Titan)
2 boots (warlock and hunter)
1 ghost
1 helmet (Titan)

 

[LTWood12]

Anyone have issues with IB drops? I have gotten a handful of scouts and boots but I can't get a fusion and I've been at rank 4 for at least 2 days on all characters.

It's like the game knows I run mostly fusion in PvP and refuses to give me a hand. I'll probably just end up buying the vendor version at this point since it doesn't seem like it will drop at all.

They won't admit it but yeah most of the community thinks the drop rate is broken. The playstation exclusive helmets are in the drop table this iron banner, and after getting 3 characters to rank 5 and continuing to play, I've seen ONE drop after a match.

 

[Darryl M R]

DGAF, just came back from the gym after a 4 month break. ;_;

Hurts more than post game drops. ;_;

You better have done legs day.

 

[SomTervo]

Having finally reached light level 300, I can say this game has one of the worst loot systems in any videogame. The excitement of getting a legendary engram is completely gone. I know no matter what it is it's just going to end up being an item below my light level. Yes I can turn it into legendary marks but then we get to the same problem... venders dont sell any items that help me level up, all their stuff is 280, even items from Iron Banner vendor.

I should not be getting getting multiple iron banner drops that are way below my level. If I have 309 light level greaves and I'm level 300 why am I getting 286 greaves ? If the marks I get from dismantling those greaves would help me progress on my level it wouldn't be a problem but legendary marks are useless. The RNG in this game does not respect the players time and makes it way harder than it should be to level up.

/rant from a player finally reaching 300

It was nice spotting their balancing/RNG ethic one month after release, about Oct 2014, and not spending any more time with the game. Feels good.

 

[Trakan]

The bigger update is in Spring, if we get more exotics/QoL fixes, I think it will be then.

How does PSN always go down when IB is up?

 

[Theorry]

Really hope that that Crimson events give guaranteed 320 ghost. Getting abit annoyed a 320 ghost is so rare and its the only thing holding me back for 320. Played all week IB again same as last time. Doing 3 times the raid and sometimes Trials. It just doesnt drop. Would had have been so difficult for example that Golgoroth challenge mode gives you a 320 ghost instead of a stupid artifact for each challenge.

 

[JohnOfMars]

I'm done buying Silver, but I have a little left over and will be buying the Hotline Bling one.

 

[Tri4]

I'm done buying Silver, but I have a little left over and will be buying the Hotline Bling one.

As much as I want that emote, I'm gonna pass because I don't agree with microtransactions. And its probably gonna be unfairly priced.

 

[Frostt]

They say a lot of things. Also, they nerfed the recharge rate per round to 8 seconds in 2.0, whereas it was originally 3, then 5 in year 1. As far as the year 2 strikes, nightfalls, etc. You pretty much have to keep moving for all of them, unlike things like the Nexus, Archon Priest, Phogoth, and others. I don't think it would break any of those encounters, and even if it did, at this point I'm starting to wonder how much they'd even care.

We might not get it back. But it seems like an easy way to get one day of positive reactions from the community.

I would love to see Phogoth or the Nexus to come back, right now all the Nightfall have the same rotation, the one with the three little dudes is repeating every two weeks and is getting really boring. Year 1 was a lot better. Items were harder to get but the raid weapons were a lot better. We also had more primary weapons with arc void or fire damage -right now only Zhalo and I guess that's it-.

Bungie also said that Thorn, Icebreaker and Gjallarhorn will never ever come back again, they ruined their idea for the game (as sniping bosses from a kilometer away or everybody using Thorn to kill in Osiris, Gjallarhorn was an obvious no, slayer of gods they said lol)

 

[JohnOfMars]

As much as I want that emote, I'm gonna pass because I don't agree with microtransactions. And its probably gonna be unfairly priced.

I have 800 silver right now. I'd bet my kingdom it'll be priced at 900.

They say a lot of things. Also, they nerfed the recharge rate per round to 8 seconds in 2.0, whereas it was originally 3, then 5 in year 1. As far as the year 2 strikes, nightfalls, etc. You pretty much have to keep moving for all of them, unlike things like the Nexus, Archon Priest, Phogoth, and others. I don't think it would break any of those encounters, and even if it did, at this point I'm starting to wonder how much they'd even care.

We might not get it back. But it seems like an easy way to get one day of positive reactions from the community.

If it's one thing I've learned from Bungie is that they do the minimum possible in any situation where they have outside pressure. Remember this most recent dust-up where people were saying "Now is the perfect time to quit Destiny"? And Bungie's response was an annoucnement of MM changes they were already going to do.

Or last year with the Collector's edition, where Bungie's solution was wait 2 weeks, say a bunch of flattering things about the veterans and then offer the Collector's Edition digital goodies separately? They didn't address international pricing or tell everyone that emotes were going to be a big deal in Year 2 and you'd get them other ways?

Bungie's reaction to any community pressure is the minimum amount.

 

[Number45]

I would love to see Phogoth or the Nexus to come back, right now all the Nightfall have the same rotation, the one with the three little dudes is repeating every two weeks and is getting really boring. Year 1 was a lot better. Items were harder to get but the raid weapons were a lot better. We also had more primary weapons with arc void or fire damage -right now only Zhalo and I guess that's it-.

They've gone on record to say that primary weapons with an element are going away, so if they update any for Y2 I assume they'll be stripping the elemental damage from them.

I have 800 silver right now. I'd bet my kingdom it'll be priced at 900.

801.

All of the big legendary emotes have been 500 I think? Can't remember now. I'm sitting on quite a bit of silver but have no real interest in the dance emotes until I can customize all of the assignments.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Doing the nightfall twice. join on me if you still need it.

 

[Raven117]

I've said this before, but I fully believe the business-side of Bungie is what is causing this strange disconnect.

Between the CEO leaving, the missed deadlines, Activision being pretty serious about their stuff . . . I just don't think they have a clear road map of what they can and can't do now with Destiny year 2.

We will all gang up on Deej or others about the lack of communication, but I believe the whole team (including Luke Smith, and occasional Gaf poster) is under strict orders to say NOTHING until they get all this sorted out.

I fully expect a few trinket announcements, more microtransactions, and nothing else of much consequence.

I do think that at E3 or something similar we hear about "Destiny 2" or something like that

 

[rasengan1337]

so I got an IB scout:
Icarus|field scout/injection mold/oiled frame|underdog

i'm thinking "meh"...
is it worth keeping?

 

[Mass Appeal]

Having finally reached light level 300, I can say this game has one of the worst loot systems in any videogame. The excitement of getting a legendary engram is completely gone. I know no matter what it is it's just going to end up being an item below my light level. Yes I can turn it into legendary marks but then we get to the same problem... venders dont sell any items that help me level up, all their stuff is 280, even items from Iron Banner vendor.

I should not be getting getting multiple iron banner drops that are way below my level. If I have 309 light level greaves and I'm level 300 why am I getting 286 greaves ? If the marks I get from dismantling those greaves would help me progress on my level it wouldn't be a problem but legendary marks are useless. The RNG in this game does not respect the players time and makes it way harder than it should be to level up.

/rant from a player finally reaching 300

Rank 3 will get you a 310 artifact and rank 5 will get you a 310 ghost and a chance at a 310 and above drop.


Also if you really want to go above 300, you gotta raid to get decent drops to max your light. Do this week's challenge mode which woll be Oryx and you will gaurentee a 320 drop and then some.

 

[igordennis]

This Thursday's Weekly Update is going to be very important in my estimation of Destiny and Bungie's attitude toward the live game:

The February Update includes more than Crimson Days. There are more bullets we’ll be firing to impact the quality of your Guardian lifestyle. Pay us a visit next week for a preview.​

I'm not interested in a Social Shooter with a Live Event model where Quality of Life updates aren't taken seriously. It sounds like it's being addressed, which pleases me, but I can't forget the weapons part nerf. (In my mind, the Weapons Parts nerf is the worst thing to have happened in Year 2. It's on par with Rexurbishing & Commendations.)

I realized that Bungie has frittered away what goodwill I had toward them when I can take the above post, which is ostensibly good news, and I write a post with such a negative tone.

There are so many low hanging fruit:

PvE
Fix the Nightfall/Weekly Shaxx Rewards
Make strikes, particularly heroics, more rewarding (maybe better chance at Strike Specific loot?)
Change up Challenge Mode Rewards (artifacts, class items, ghosts)

PvP
Actually increase drop rates
Roll out new CB priority MM to more playlists
Nerf special ammo spawns (You shouldn't be able to use a special as a primary)
Nerf Heavy ammo spawns in 3v3s
Nerf HMG ammo in Crucible (you shouldn't be able to keep a HMG for a whole game)
Have Planetary mats drop post game

General:
Rotate Vendor Stock
Have Xur sell higher light items
Have all the shaders be in the drop table (Crucible & Cryptarch ones, I'm looking at you.)
Lower the rare planetary mat requirement for swords. (I still only have one exotic sword)
Be more generous with legendary marks, strange coins, etc. (Make it rain)
Actually have the Cryptarch give better rewards on rankup? Remember when Bungie said that was a thing?

Bigger ideas (but not new content or changing designs):
Let shaders affect class items again. (Sweet Jesus, who let that change?)
Put Year 1 strikes in Playlist. Don't even have to modify them or Takenify them. Just put them in the playlists, including Nightfall.
Allow Year 1 class items to be infused

None of these are new content. None of these are invalidating design decisions, no matter how bad they are. There are huge big things that this doesn't touch (raid drops in general as an example.)

Just making our current game, as it is, a bit friendlier to the players.

I want more variety. And so that's why I want more cosmetic options and more rewards so we're not all running 1kYS vendor roll & Hung Jury.

So yeah, Thursday will be very interesting. How much does Bungie care about the live game and players beyond exploiting us for Microtransactions?

All of the stuff listed here is a no brainer for anyone that played Destiny for a few minutes since TTK launched. Which is why Bungie won't do any of them.

 

[DeviantBoi]

I've said this before, but I fully believe the business-side of Bungie is what is causing this strange disconnect.

Between the CEO leaving, the missed deadlines, Activision being pretty serious about their stuff . . . I just don't think they have a clear road map of what they can and can't do now with Destiny year 2.

We will all gang up on Deej or others about the lack of communication, but I believe the whole team (including Luke Smith, and occasional Gaf poster) is under strict orders to say NOTHING until they get all this sorted out.

I fully expect a few trinket announcements, more microtransactions, and nothing else of much consequence.

I do think that at E3 or something similar we hear about "Destiny 2" or something like that

To me, it looks like the previous CEO re-negotiated with Activision in regards to the two DLCs that were scheduled to come out this year. The reasoning was that they needed all of Bungie to be working on Destiny 2.

However, once they realized that Destiny 2 was not gonna make the release date, someone had to pay the price, and, rightfully, it was the CEO.

According to the contract, if the Destiny brand is in jeopardy of losing its value, Activision will take over. That's probably the number one priority of the new CEO, avoiding that situation. It might bode well for Y2 players as we might get some bigger content to keep the game alive.

Just my take on the situation from what I've read online.

I bet they got a nice payday from Activision for signing up with them. Too bad that they overestimated their ability to keep that original release schedule.

 

[MagnetoWasRight]

Wait, weren't we supposed to get bonus Silver in December?

 

[DeviantBoi]

Wait, weren't we supposed to get bonus Silver in December?

No, just motes and coins, IIRC.

 

[DeviantBoi]

All of the stuff listed here is a no brainer for anyone that played Destiny for a few minutes since TTK launched. Which is why Bungie won't do any of them.

Bungie just had a terrible past couple of days:

1. Destiny 2 delay leaked
2. Rumors of no big content for Y2
3. Admitting to lying about SBMM
4. Backlash against IB Rift
5. CEO is sacked

After all that, people expected Bungie to give us some good news, perhaps a roadmap for Y2, a glimpse of things to come.

And what did we get?

Nada. Nothing. Just the same old BWU with a lot of words but very little content.