Mr. Pointy
Member
I'm trying to figure out what's going on. So... you can create a character and use that character to play co-op in someone else's game? But there's no female CAC option?
Developers call out Ubisoft on their stance regarding playable female characters
- Thread starter MagicWithEarvin
- Start date
Im so sick and tired of this "political correct" bullshit.
Ubisoft: Just say "you changed you mind" and move on. Maybe keep a more open mind for preparedness and such for the next few games in terms of making a female lead assassin.
Everybody else: Its a goddamn VIDJA GAIME. It's not the end of the world, nor the end of Assassin's Creed. There's plenty of time to put female characters, green and polkadot characters, indian characters, quasi-homosexual deaf mute WHATEVER characters in games PERIOD. Just enjoy the shit for what it is. THEY made the game so that's what THEY wanted to do. Hell, i'm BLACK/INDIAN/OTHER and yeah maybe I could say we don't have enough leads or legit representation for my race but for Christ's sake I don't turn it into a freakin' witch hunt everytime some dev opens up their mouth about why they chose race and sex in their games.
It's a "mostly" caucasian/asian industry that makes these games, painfully blunt and simple. Not justifying their excuse but if I were them, I would ALSO make games that I can easily identify with, without stepping on stereotypes too hard or offending someone's culture or affiliation....aka games with people like myself in them, while AT THE SAME TIME try to put other characters of mixed decent/origin/sex/sexuality in my games too, with good representation.
We need to chill out. Sure it was a weak excuse but at the end of the day these same people are gonna buy the game, so all that other spewed-out nonsense needs to quit. After all, gamers aren't identified by sex or race. We're identified by our awesomely expensive hobby that we live, breathe and die for. So enjoy that shit and move on chums/ladies.
Ubisoft: Just say "you changed you mind" and move on. Maybe keep a more open mind for preparedness and such for the next few games in terms of making a female lead assassin.
Everybody else: Its a goddamn VIDJA GAIME. It's not the end of the world, nor the end of Assassin's Creed. There's plenty of time to put female characters, green and polkadot characters, indian characters, quasi-homosexual deaf mute WHATEVER characters in games PERIOD. Just enjoy the shit for what it is. THEY made the game so that's what THEY wanted to do. Hell, i'm BLACK/INDIAN/OTHER and yeah maybe I could say we don't have enough leads or legit representation for my race but for Christ's sake I don't turn it into a freakin' witch hunt everytime some dev opens up their mouth about why they chose race and sex in their games.
It's a "mostly" caucasian/asian industry that makes these games, painfully blunt and simple. Not justifying their excuse but if I were them, I would ALSO make games that I can easily identify with, without stepping on stereotypes too hard or offending someone's culture or affiliation....aka games with people like myself in them, while AT THE SAME TIME try to put other characters of mixed decent/origin/sex/sexuality in my games too, with good representation.
We need to chill out. Sure it was a weak excuse but at the end of the day these same people are gonna buy the game, so all that other spewed-out nonsense needs to quit. After all, gamers aren't identified by sex or race. We're identified by our awesomely expensive hobby that we live, breathe and die for. So enjoy that shit and move on chums/ladies.
Not about the inclusivity--about their featuresets. That's why I was bringing up the comparison in the first place--because having playable female assassins is a feature. I actually didn't play much of AC1, so I honestly didn't remember there were female assassins there in the first place.
That's a straw man if I've ever seen one.
Sure, I'll answer your question directly. Not sure how many times I've answered this already in this thread, but I'll humor you.
If they are building ACU from scratch, then the process would've started with blue-sky ideation, where they think of all the potential features they want. Female PC and competitive multiplayer would both be brought up here.
Once production begins, based on how well they're hitting production milestones, they'll need to continually perform backlog grooming. They prioritize items (features) from the backlog based on player value and develop a list of features for the MVP (minimum viable product). Anything that's not a MVP is deprioritized and a "want", not a "need". Now lets say that they could guarantee the MVP would be shipped, and still had resources for a single "want".
When I say the two could've competed against each other, this is the context I was referring to (and you would've caught if you were following the thread). Of course, neither of them are making the final cut apparently, but it really was just an example to spark discussion around development prioritization (again, you would've caught this if you were following the thread).
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
You really want to tell me that the main demographic of these games being men has nothing to do with it?
[QUOTE="D";116276942]Everybody else: Its a goddamn VIDJA GAIME.[/QUOTE]
Honest question: would you say the same about film? TV?
Yes, it's a toy. But it's a toy played by millions, and many, many of those are not men.
Quadraphonic
Member
You can't even create-a-character like people are thinking.
That's overblown, too.
Just imagine the AC4 customizing. Your player can equip different swords, guns, and outfits.
The deal is NOW you can now choose which wrist gets which kind of blade, Phantom (Crossbow) or Hidden.
So you can have two of each, or mix and match.
Pair that with a skill-tree, and those are your customizations. There MIGHT be some other minor visual changes (facial hair?) but nothing extensive like Tony Hawk.
The idea is that you probably will want to have a different loadout for your character that benefits you in the Brotherhood Contracts. Outfits in AC4 sometimes had special abilities (increase stealth, damage resistance, etc.). This is now going to play a part in those open-ended contracts.
Aah, so in that case female assassin NPCs will actually have awesome animations, and since in previous games they had many of the same movements (walking, running, sneaking, climbing) it's likely we could just use those. Problem solved.
If ACU can't do better than the featureset of the original game there's literally no reason to make it. Despite possible technical challenges, they need to build upon their past iterations. This is a problem they chose to take on, it's not the consumer's fault for taking it in consideration.
Mr. Pointy
Member
So... there is a set list of PCs for co-op partners and you can customize them, but none of them are female?
Zoe
Member
You can't customize their frames or facial features.
Was this posted here already? If not, it's definitely a great read on that matter and everyone should read it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/assassinscr...inct_lack_of_female_characters_due_to/ci5z8i7
Edit: Imo, this is worthy of being added to the OP so that people can see it actually.
http://www.reddit.com/r/assassinscr...inct_lack_of_female_characters_due_to/ci5z8i7
Edit: Imo, this is worthy of being added to the OP so that people can see it actually.
No. You implied that executives (or whoever you consider to be "higher-ups" are vetoing the feature, which is actually pretty preposterous given the sprawling bureaucracy that is Ubisoft. Again, games like The Division feature female PCs. Ubi's E3 adverts for their hardcore dudebro military shooters have female "players". Representation is actually something Ubi is pretty cognizant of, so no--I don't think the decision to cut female PCs from ACU was primarily driven by that reasoning. That's very specific though.
If you wanted to argue that Ubi wanted their AC leads to be handsome and male, because that's what their target demographic aspires to be, then I'd tell you "no shit". It's probably why they relegated the only female PC to be on the PSV. Gives me nightmares about even Gaf responding poorly to GTA:SA's PC being black--and that response infuriates me to this day. But again, different things here--one is about catering the PC to tastes, the other is about additional options. They're similar if you view them as a consumer, but again, from a development standpoint, they're not.
Thanks. That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time as well.
Why would it be BS when Ubisoft has a history of inclusion in these games? That makes zero sense.
Considering their track record with this series, that's exactly what I'll tell you. If the "higher ups" were going to cut content because of demographics we wouldn't have seen the diversity that we have up to this point at all.
R_thanatos
Member
i've read some pages , seen a bunch of opinions here .... yet i still don't understand ubisoft "stance" here.
First we had aveline , then they made aveline animations for ac3 , then they made liberation HD .. and we have people that know what they are talking about that say that creating anothere new set wouldn't cost so much work ...i'm honnestly confused at ubisoft ...
Was it too much for them to say : " we have a plan for this game and it make more sense without females , it's part of the game design !" and then everyone would have at least considered that we might have a bad point of view because we don't know much about the game itself.
Not counting aveline , there was a lot of females classes in multiplayer already so the only thing that make sense is that Ubisoft PR department need some fresh air.
It doesn't make sense otherwise
First we had aveline , then they made aveline animations for ac3 , then they made liberation HD .. and we have people that know what they are talking about that say that creating anothere new set wouldn't cost so much work ...i'm honnestly confused at ubisoft ...
Was it too much for them to say : " we have a plan for this game and it make more sense without females , it's part of the game design !" and then everyone would have at least considered that we might have a bad point of view because we don't know much about the game itself.
Not counting aveline , there was a lot of females classes in multiplayer already so the only thing that make sense is that Ubisoft PR department need some fresh air.
It doesn't make sense otherwise
Stormhammer
Member
There is not a set list. You play as the main character of the game, and can customize his gear.
Mr. Pointy
Member
Oh ok. So all your co-op partners are Arno as well.
Stormhammer
Member
Quadraphonic
Member
Customization is not to the scale you think it is.
Everyone plays the same character. Arno. Everyone. The weapon and skill loadout is the customization. And it's the same between single and multiplayer modes.
Allowing for changing the character means a different story and the historical events are the BIGGEST POINT of these games. Who talks to and who kills who changes the story in a serious manner.
Allowing for seamless transition from single-player to multi-player in the game would mean allowing your character to be male or female in the game, and that is pretty much a huge contradiction to the narrative they've spent the better part of a decade building.
Getting over the whole internal consistency issue, the budget is something more than "one or two days" simply because of how they structured the multiplayer segments.
That would mean casting a voice actress, reciting tons more lines. And that also means a possible ending change since the Animus only goes into a character until they have intercourse where the next lineage is spawned. (IE: Sex that resulted in pregnancy of the family tree that leads to you = no more history past that point of Arno)
And on top of that, any reference to the character, would need a new name, since Arno isn't unisex. So that means also redoing lipflap and voicework for all the cutscenes mentioning the character.
OR the alternative is to change how multiplayer missions are initiated, which is a ton of programmer work, and also making art assets to handle the character screen, and getting in designers and writers to make the story behind how that works to pick the characters, yet have it be part of the game's storyline AND Arno's storyline.
No matter how you slice it, allowing for females in the missions in the way people want is a giant headache to every possible department.
I am happy the conversation has finally shifted to "Ubisoft did a shitty job explaining this", though. Because they need to fucking step it up in the future.
And that, my friend, is the only thing I don't know how they explain away.
Just make them nameless Assassins? Give them rando-NPC faces?
Kind of reminds me how you're always MURICA in America's Army.
Features in development aren't equal to player-facing features. Plus, AC1 didn't have playable female PC anyway
figadapaura
Member
Well, you were the one who brought it up, so well done you?
LOL okay, well maybe I was less inclined to read your previous posts because you're incredibly condescending and it's kinda grating. Just sayin.
I obviously understand that there are limitations, that's a no-brainer. But you keep comparing multiplayer and playable female characters as if they're mutually exclusive. If they had decided that they had the time and resources to make multiplayer like in previous games, there would be playable female characters. I have no doubt that that's one of the boxes they'd need to tick off to make it a reality. Clearly this wasn't possible for a variety of reasons.
Acting like wanting female representation and wanting multiplayer are exactly the same thing is disingenuous at best.
Mr. Pointy
Member
Now I can't understand the fuss.Yep
If there was a list of playable characters for co-op or a CAC option for co-op and there was no female option, then I can understand the criticism.
I brought it up as an example of how feature prioritization works in game development. You took it as me trying to argue that the two are mutually exclusive... when I've never said anything like that. Even close to that. That's you misunderstanding me.
Ubisoft is the company that regularly has a bazillion different studios working on the same game and ships games with hilariously repetitive and shallow gameplay. I'm really skeptical that they couldn't spare a few people to animate and model female characters.
Then again, they have had major female characters, both playable and nonplayable, in previous games, so who knows. Maybe they really are that inept / inefficient.
Then again, they have had major female characters, both playable and nonplayable, in previous games, so who knows. Maybe they really are that inept / inefficient.
At which point we're back at the fact that they're not the same dude, and you have to represent something different to other players.
Yeah but you know that's a shaky point, since it also wasn't the first one to have multiplayerAC1 didn't have playable female PC anyway
It did have multiple player characters however.No. At that point, they're effectively NPCs in scope. They don't need voices, don't need to interact in cutscenes, etc. That's the difference.At which point we're back at the fact that they're not the same dude, and you have to represent something different to other players.
Yeah but you know that's a shaky point, since it also wasn't the first one to have multiplayer
Quadraphonic
Member
From what I saw, reading through AC4's long ass credits, a lot of those were modelers, designers and animators. Programmers were far less than I expected.
figadapaura
Member
Then why did you bring up wanting multiplayer as a counter-example to people wanting gender equality? Surely you know that there are women in the multiplayer. You getting what you want (multiplayer) would also result in a lot of the people complaining in this thread getting what they want (playable female characters). Everyone is happy. (Obviously not everyone, but you get the gist.)
NPCs like the female assassins that are likely in this game since they're in other games? Point taken, they already have assets they could reuse
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
No. You play as Arno. Always.
Quadraphonic
Member
Welcome to the discussion. We've already established their initial response was piss poor, but the actual justification is much better.
I didn't. I brought up competitive multiplayer to create a PARALLEL to wanting female PCs options, because they're both FEATURES. I then used both as an example of NON-MVP FEATURES to illustrate how DEVELOPMENT PRIORITY works.
I'm not sure if you think you're being clever with these responses, but it comes off as ignorant. They've already said they're building everything from scratch. They've also not shown off female assassins. You might actually have a point if they do eventually, but until then, you're kind of talking out of your ass.NPCs like the female assassins that are likely in this game since they're in other games? Point taken, they already have assets they could reuse
EDIT: Gonna bow out of this thread. Happy debating!
ThreePiMatt
Member
Then please, if their excuse is bullshit, what is the real reason?
Mr. Pointy
Member
Then if I were Ubisoft I'd do a DLC mini-story with a female character and let people play her in the main campaign in co-op. It appears to me that having 4 Arnos running around doesn't effect the story.
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
You gotta love it when the have's try to tell the have nots they need to chill out it's not a big deal.
Hardly, that's just a blowhard saying what Ubi already said, just in a lot of words. "It'll take [some amount] of effort".
Well why didn't they budget for that effort in the first place. That's the bullshit.
figadapaura
Member
You know that playable female characters being considered a non-MVP feature is part of the problem, right?
Counter-example/parallel, now we're just getting into semantics.
Only if you literally don't know anything about the history of the series or the history of the era this game is set in. I'm bored of your insistent attacks upon people's character.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Corday
On its face, what is the problem with wanting a male lead?
Nothing unless you've already had multiple games starring male leads. Some people want diversity in their games.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You never stop playing as Arno. Whether or not we'll see another playable character as a dlc remains to be seen.
In the face of a series that has had a black female lead, a black male lead, and a middle eastern male lead, this is an odd statement.
A black female lead that was relegated to a portable title.
While minority representation has been good, female representation hasn't.
Lets get a minority female as a lead then I'll start applauding them.
old manatee
Banned
But if you're looking for properly animated men torturing information out of each other..
Quadraphonic
Member
Very little of the actual game has been revealed.
No DLC info. No season pass. None of any standalone side missions (Adawale, Aveline).
Hell, in AC4 you played as 3 different people through three different games.
A white dude, a black dude and a black chick. (I didn't add the red text. It was the quickest image I could find)
There could be a lot more to reveal.
No DLC info. No season pass. None of any standalone side missions (Adawale, Aveline).
Hell, in AC4 you played as 3 different people through three different games.
A white dude, a black dude and a black chick. (I didn't add the red text. It was the quickest image I could find)
There could be a lot more to reveal.
stufte
Member
Then play a different game? Buy the game with Aveline in it? When am I going to get a Tomb Raider with some diversity? I didn't know video games were a platform for social change?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
They already did that. If this isn't representation then idk what is.
AC has an extremely diverse cast of characters. So it's not about "not wanting to have a female lead" in anyway shape or form.
All media is a vehicle for social change. Why would video games be exempt? You don't get to decide how people react to art or commercial products, of which this video game is both. If you publish and/or sell art, it is going to be critiqued.
figadapaura
Member
Whatever the rest of your point is, this is seriously the lamest argument I have ever seen.
Also, comparing a series which constantly changes lead character to one with a set lead character. Hmmm.