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Diablo III |OT| Stay Awhile And... *click* *click* *click*

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M

maharg

idspispopd
wwlnd said:
They could easily set the buff and elite/champion density/respawn such that the optimal mode of farming is running through the entire game for as long as possible.

For example, you've cleared the best area for elites/champions and the first boss. The buff could be such that the optimal thing to do is to go on to the next elite/champion area to further stack the buff.
Click to expand...

See the thing is that when we're talking about this it's not even about some routine that gives you the *best* possible chance. It's about the *best possible chance in the shortest time*, because that will always be more efficient than going through the entire game. The game as a whole will definitely have dead zones even if it's just travel or quest advancement time.

I think people really do confuse the idea that there will be diversity built into the game with the idea that top-tier players will actually do a diverse set of things. D2 had plenty of diversity in every way, it was the fact that most of the possibly paths were suboptimal and there were just a few things that were better AND faster than other options by some noticeable but not huge amount. Players gravitate towards those things like a river cuts through rock. Paths of least resistance. When people find them they communicate them, and then everyone is doing it for that 10% better chance of getting a godly plate of the whale.
 
F

FieryBalrog

Member
One way to do it is to randomize what is the "best possible way" so it's not a static system. Keep people on their toes and guessing and figuring it out each time. Would be a TON of work but worth it. For example, keep the spawn rates of champions and so on moving around so that one single zone doesn't turn out to be head and shoulders above the rest in positive expected value per run.

Oh and it's over NINE THOUSAND! This OT moves goddamned fast.
 
W

Wunder

Member
maharg said:
See the thing is that when we're talking about this it's not even about some routine that gives you the *best* possible chance. It's about the *best possible chance in the shortest time*, because that will always be more efficient than going through the entire game. The game as a whole will definitely have dead zones even if it's just travel or quest advancement time.

I think people really do confuse the idea that there will be diversity built into the game with the idea that top-tier players will actually do a diverse set of things. D2 had plenty of diversity in every way, it was the fact that most of the possibly paths were suboptimal and there were just a few things that were better AND faster than other options by some noticeable but not huge amount. Players gravitate towards those things like a river cuts through rock. Paths of least resistance. When people find them they communicate them, and then everyone is doing it for that 10% better chance of getting a godly plate of the whale.
Click to expand...

I remember the first time I got that godly plate of the whale.
 
M

maharg

idspispopd
FieryBalrog said:
One way to do it is to randomize what is the "best possible way" so it's not a static system. Keep people on their toes and guessing and figuring it out each time. Would be a TON of work but worth it.

Oh and it's over NINE THOUSAND! This OT moves goddamned fast.
Click to expand...

You can randomize it but then it just becomes a matter of finding the spot with the most possible spawn points for champions/elites (or if any enemy can spawn that way, the most spawn points for enemies period). And then even if there's 10 such places, one or two will become popular just because having everyone on the same page while going through it is valuable and people will be able to do it more efficiently because that's where everyone does it.

I really don't think there's any way to prevent it. People really need to think of the gamers as a collective as basically a giant computer that's solving for efficiency.
 
R

Realyn

Member
Was playing with the skill builder and damn ... I just solved inferno.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aZQdXV!aYe!baaZZZ

Have a look at the Shatter Shot rune. There is a 35% chance that your arrow slipts into 3 arrows. IF the rune applies to those arrows as well atleast one of those(35>33) will split again. So basically you need to fire 3 arrows at Diablo on Inferno. One will split into eternity. Win. Next game please.

yeah ... the rune prolly not working this way :(
 
D

Dresden

Member
@Realyn: sounds like it'll split after it hits the mob, dealing AOE damage to enemies behind it. Useless against single targets unless it ricochets.

---

It's why I like going in day1 on MMOs and such. There's a sense of discovery that's lacking when every mob is datamined and every build has been theorycrafted.
 
S

scy

Member
maharg said:
You can randomize it but then it just becomes a matter of finding the spot with the most possible spawn points for champions/elites (or if any enemy can spawn that way, the most spawn points for enemies period). And then even if there's 10 such places, one or two will become popular just because having everyone on the same page while going through it is valuable and people will be able to do it more efficiently because that's where everyone does it.

I really don't think there's any way to prevent it. People really need to think of the gamers as a collective as basically a giant computer that's solving for efficiency.
Click to expand...

Considering the goal of Diablo III's change to the loot system (Champions/Uniques vs Bosses, Nephalem Valor in a nutshell) was to shift focus away from bosses, I'd imagine that it's rather successful in theory already.

Yes, there will be those certain areas that are just better but that's really not a surprise at all. I mean, Inferno adds new tiers of loot per Act so we're already limited to Act 4. Well, assuming Inferno Tiers are actually improvements and not just visual differences.

Edit: Though, yeah, having options doesn't mean much to the min/max crowd; something will be better.
 
C

CarbonatedFalcon

Member
I would like to take this time to remind you that it is now Mother's Day in the U.S.

Don't forget about your mother even with all the Diablo hype going around!


scy said:
Considering the goal of Diablo III's change to the loot system (Champions/Uniques vs Bosses, Nephalem Valor in a nutshell) was to shift focus away from bosses, I'd imagine that it's rather successful in theory already.

Yes, there will be those certain areas that are just better but that's really not a surprise at all. I mean, Inferno adds new tiers of loot per Act so we're already limited to Act 4. Well, assuming Inferno Tiers are actually improvements and not just visual differences.
Click to expand...

They've said that the best possible items will be Inferno Act 4, but that you could still have really nicely rolled items from later Hell or early Inferno that would be better than a more poorly rolled Act 4 Inferno item.
 
R

RuinerPrime

Member
WD is my first for sure

My order of play will probably be this:
WD - DH - W - M - B

Never been a barb player but I'll get around to it after the first 4
 
F

FieryBalrog

Member
maharg said:
You can randomize it but then it just becomes a matter of finding the spot with the most possible spawn points for champions/elites (or if any enemy can spawn that way, the most spawn points for enemies period). And then even if there's 10 such places, one or two will become popular just because having everyone on the same page while going through it is valuable and people will be able to do it more efficiently because that's where everyone does it.

I really don't think there's any way to prevent it. People really need to think of the gamers as a collective as basically a giant computer that's solving for efficiency.
Click to expand...

However, you can take advantage of the fact that the mass of players can't coordinate. At least, in theory you could. For example, what if there was a dynamic system that looked at what areas/mobs people were skipping by, and boosted the rates on those? So people could stumble across this and be encouraged to look at new areas- add some unknown to the equation. Gaming this system would require mass coordination amongst players whereas most people will instead only "solve for efficiency" by following the herd.
 
UberTag

UberTag

Member
I can only imagine the number of mothers who would have disowned their kids had Diablo III launched on the 8th and not the 15th.
"Ignore me for a game, will you? I'll show you how WRETCHED a mother can be!"
 
F

FieryBalrog

Member
I think I would like for the system to kind of turn out like real world fishing (at least as it was 100 years ago). Where yes, much of the information is known and publicly available, but every angler has his own little secrets and superstitions about what is lucky and what spot is the "ripe" spot, and what tackle and bait to use, etc. Maybe not possible with the internet, but most people aren't actually that attuned to the cutting edge information even in this day and age (see: WoW). Though the information is out there, only some of it filters down to the masses.
 
S

scy

Member
CarbonatedFalcon said:
They've said that the best possible items will be Inferno Act 4, but that you could still have really nicely rolled items from later Hell or early Inferno that would be better than a more poorly rolled Act 4 Inferno item.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, really. I'll kind of miss Meph runs though...

...nah.
 
A

Ainaurdur

Member
FieryBalrog said:
I think I would like for the system to kind of turn out like real world fishing (at least as it was 100 years ago). Where yes, much of the information is known and publicly available, but every angler has his own little secrets and superstitions about what is lucky and what spot is the "ripe" spot, and what tackle and bait to use, etc. Maybe not possible with the internet, but most people aren't actually that attuned to the cutting edge information even in this day and age (see: WoW). Though the information is out there, only some of it filters down to the masses.
Click to expand...

And not everyone is out there scouring to find the info. They just want to play and see what happens. For better or worse.
 
A

aliencowz7

Member
The masses also didn't do nonstop baal and pindleskin runs in d2 but that doesn't change the fact that it was still the most efficient ways to get items. Its just the way this kind of game is going to work when information is so available on the net. It's made even worse with diablo being a blizzard franchise with a massive playerbase who are notorious for datamining every possible tidbit from the client possible.

There will be a most affective path to item farming whether its bosses or elites and i'm not sure it really makes much difference in the long run which it is. There is just no real way of taking this part of these games out due to the amount of variables at play and how visible the mechanics are to the playerbase.
 
S

ShadyLurker

Member
Even if their is a set "best run" at least it will be more varied and fun. I mean, running meph was the same every time, you skip all the trash just to get to him as fast as possible.

At least now, even if it's just; Get buff to max, clear elites, boss, restart, it will change it up a bit every time.
 
S

Sothpaw

Member
maharg said:
And then even if there's 10 such places, one or two will become popular just because having everyone on the same page while going through it is valuable and people will be able to do it more efficiently because that's where everyone does it.
Click to expand...

Is being on the same page more valuable than not getting tired of the same two spots over and over (given that there are more than a few places that have equal risk/reward)? I think not. Maybe for some D3 players, but certainly not for everyone.
 
G

Goldenhen

Member
Wow I found someone posted the video youtube link to the Diablo 3 ending.

:( I think it's best to avoid searching diablo 3 on youtube.
 
D

Dresden

Member
A month from now there's going to be a spot in Act 4 Inferno that everyone's going to farm over and over. It's inevitable and I ain't gonna worry about it.
 
S

Sothpaw

Member
Dresden said:
A month from now there's going to be a spot in Act 4 Inferno that everyone's going to farm over and over. It's inevitable and I ain't gonna worry about it.
Click to expand...

I think you might be just a little off on the timeline for everyone to be farming Act IV Inferno...

I can't wait to see how hard Inferno really is.
 
T

toastyToast

Member
I haven't played Diablo before and my only experience with clicky loot-fests is Torchlight. I was enjoying it for a while but then I found myself getting bored of the limited environments and low difficulty (played on hard). I didn't really come across anything that whooped my ass so hard that I had to go searching for loot, which was somewhat disappointing.

Since Diablo is supposed to be like the OG of the genre, in what ways are my dissatisfactions with Torchlight addressed?

Also, Yoshi being hype makes me hype
 
Y

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
toasty_T said:
I haven't played Diablo before and my only experience with clicky loot-fests is Torchlight. I was enjoying it for a while but then I found myself getting bored of the limited environments and low difficulty (played on hard). I didn't really come across anything that whooped my ass so hard that I had to go searching for loot, which was somewhat disappointing.

Since Diablo is supposed to be like the OG of the genre, in what ways are my dissatisfactions with Torchlight addressed?

Also, Yoshi being hype makes me hype
Click to expand...


The loot doesnt suck, the environments dont suck, the characters dont suck, the skills dont suck, and the loot is necessary to succeed for the most case.
 
S

Sothpaw

Member
toasty_T said:
I haven't played Diablo before and my only experience with clicky loot-fests is Torchlight. I was enjoying it for a while but then I found myself getting bored of the limited environments and low difficulty (played on hard). I didn't really come across anything that whooped my ass so hard that I had to go searching for loot, which was somewhat disappointing.

Since Diablo is supposed to be like the OG of the genre, in what ways are my dissatisfactions with Torchlight addressed?

Also, Yoshi being hype makes me hype
Click to expand...


Torchlight is like Diablo on training wheels.

- Inferno mode is going to (most likely) be vastly more difficult than anything in Torchlight on hard.

- You will not be able to progress at all in Inferno without farming items in Hell difficulty.

- The environments are both varied (indoor, outdoor, etc.) and randomized.

Any other concerns you might have?
 
A

aliencowz7

Member
ShaneB said:
I hope Inferno is impossible. lol
Click to expand...

If wow has shown me anything its that its impossible for blizzard to make impossible content lol. The fanbase is to rabid with people whose job it is to play non stop. Even diablo 2 had uber tristram which was supposed to be the end all be all in difficulty, cheesed out as soon as people figured out a proper smiter build.

I think it will be hard enough to give the vast majority of people an enjoyable challenge though which is really all you can ask for. Eventually there comes a point where you are making content frustrating and not hard which is a line you don't want to cross as a game dev.
 
F

FieryBalrog

Member
toasty_T said:
I haven't played Diablo before and my only experience with clicky loot-fests is Torchlight. I was enjoying it for a while but then I found myself getting bored of the limited environments and low difficulty (played on hard). I didn't really come across anything that whooped my ass so hard that I had to go searching for loot, which was somewhat disappointing.

Since Diablo is supposed to be like the OG of the genre, in what ways are my dissatisfactions with Torchlight addressed?

Also, Yoshi being hype makes me hype
Click to expand...

Well, the way D3 operates, the first playthrough is on normal (pretty easy) difficulty, but by the time you get to Inferno, it would be way, way harder than Torchlight 1. Also, the limited environments shouldn't be a problem, even the environments in Torchlight 2 are way more varied. TL1 was made on a shoestring budget.
 
F

FieryBalrog

Member
aliencowz7 said:
If wow has shown me anything its that its impossible for blizzard to make impossible content lol. The fanbase is to rabid with people whose job it is to play non stop. Even diablo 2 had uber tristram which was supposed to be the end all be all in difficulty in diablo 2 cheesed out as soon as people figured out a proper smiter build.

I think it will be hard enough to give the vast majority of people an enjoyable challenge though which is really all you can ask for. Eventually there comes a point where you are making content frustrating and not hard which is a line you don't want to cross as a game dev.
Click to expand...

C'thun

Also I don't know why you would want that. Why should content be actually impossible, where's the fun in that?

See: Heroic Ragnaros. Not actually impossible, but might as well have been. They clearly still know how to make ridiculously hard content.
 
A

aliencowz7

Member
FieryBalrog said:
C'thun

Also I don't know why you would want that. Why should content be actually impossible, where's the fun in that?

See: Heroic Ragnaros. Not actually impossible, but might as well have been. They clearly still know how to make ridiculously hard content.
Click to expand...

C'thun wasn't made impossible on purpose it was simply bugged out for a while. Heroic rag was killed pretty damn fast after guilds got to him.

I just get the feeling people are expecting inferno to be something that it won't be as it would make no sense from a game design standpoint to make any content impossible on purpose. There is a fine line between challenging gameplay and broken gameplay.
 
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