So every drop has to be something useful / only has useful stats?
I'm still kind of puzzled why you aren't limited to just weapon swaps during combat.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Diablo III |OT4| Antiques Roadshow: Sanctuary Edition
- Thread starter CarbonatedFalcon
- Start date
- Status
So every drop has to be something useful / only has useful stats?
I'm still kind of puzzled why you aren't limited to just weapon swaps during combat.
cpp_is_king
Member
Sure, it's a solution. Is it a solution that people who were already getting more drops than intended will be happy with? Probably not, because the only way they'll be happy is if they're allowed to continue getting more drops than intended.
But if it were up to these same people, everything would just constantly be buffed until you were doing Disgaea-level damage.
Woo-Fu
Banned
He means so that you get the life on hit of the item each tick of whatever tick rate it is.
Single target skill with 100% coefficient gives you 100% LoH per tick.
AoE skill with 20% coefficient hitting 5 targets gives you 100% LoH per tick.
I just made those number up for illustration.
I found this shield last night and I can't tell if it is trash or not. No primary stats, but what it has seems pretty good.
Damn...
I'd also def be interested if you are thinking of selling, but yea, the value of that thing will be pretty damn high.
UberTag
Member
Not saying people aren't doing this for reasons that aren't Magic Find abuse.
Just saying that the rationale behind NV has always been that you ride a certain type of build for a kill streak in order to accumulate a Magic Find bonus.
If you swap out skills, you're changing your build hence the NV bonus goes away.
Makes sense to me that swapping out gear is changing your build and should work the exact same way.
Don't see how one is fundamentally different than another.
If your character is dependent on gear OR skill swaps to survive certain types of enemies then forfeiting NV should be the end result.
So I found this amulet last night and I'm not sure how to price it. The only thing like it searching with str, mf, gf has is one with a starting bid at 10m buyout 12m with 39gf. Searching with life regen gives 3 with buyouts ranging from 3m-250m. Swaping out mf gives one at 750k starting bid. Anyone have any ideas on a price for this or want to make an offer?
You'll return 100% of your Life on Hit per skill use. If you have 500, you'll tend to get 500 for that use of the skill. But, again, that's more of an "on average" thing for skills. Many scale better or worse. For instance, Rapid Fire is 17% per hit, I believe? Way of the Hundred Fist's second hit (total) 60%, 90%, or 120% depending on runes.
What I meant with the 100% thing is that the coefficients tend to be an assumption for the average things you'll hit per use of the skill. Whirlwind for Barbs has a ~13% Life on Hit scaling so it's expected to hit around 7-8 times per "use" of Whirlwind. Some skills scale remarkably well like Witch Doctor Fire Pit (66%/stack/tick/enemy) or Rain of Toads (50%/stack/tick/enemy) and others are horribly awful like Blizzard (2%/tick/enemy, does not stack).
I'm at work and this is interesting, ergo I'm still going :x
If we were doing Disgaea-level damage, I'd have to do a lot more math.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Potentially useful, yes.
I think every drop that is 100% useless shouldn't even exist or be replaced with gold/gems/etc.
What is the point in having a drop that nobody in their right mind is going to bother picking up in the first place? All you're doing is cluttering up the environment.
Whites in high level areas are just the most obvious 'culprit'.
Dungeon Siege in particular suffered from this, those games would fill your screen with crap drops that nobody in their right mind would use. At least in DS' case though you could sell that junk for meaningful coin. In diablo 3 not only is it stuff you'll never use it is stuff that isn't even worth carrying back to vendor.
Imagine if 99% of what came out of a pinata was dog shit. How many people would enjoy breaking open a couple thousand pinatas?
cpp_is_king
Member
Right, but it's not that hard to understand that having a lot of MF on switch is simply too powerful and too easy. "Reducing my damage by 90% when I was doing 1.7 million damage on every hit is still a nerf, any way you slice it". Well duh, but that's obviously too powerful and you shouldn't be doing 1.7 million damage on every hit. Just like here killing every champ in the game with a 350 MF suit that cost 500k is also too powerful. It's that simple.
You should be happy that they're at least compromising somewhat.
So I found this amulet last night and I'm not sure how to price it. The only thing like it searching with str, mf, gf has is one with a starting bid at 10m buyout 12m with 39gf. Searching with life regen gives 3 with buyouts ranging from 3m-250m. Swaping out mf gives one at 750k starting bid. Anyone have any ideas on a price for this or want to make an offer?
I'd make an offer (to put it on my Templar as a MF/GF amulet) but I can't afford it lol.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Yes, we should be thankful that they're only cutting off one of our fingers when they could have cut off the entire hand. You'd get along well with Bashiok, lol.
They're swapping to MF gear in a Diablo game. That's been intended for over a decade. The new D3 team is just weak and folds to the vocal minority. "We want easy inferno!" "Ias is too powerful!" "We want lots and lots of ilvl63!" "We want random zombies in A1 to have the same drops as the final boss of the game!"
Why does everybody need more drops? Is RMAH your job? Can you not farm the equipment required to beat inferno in a reasonable time frame? People really are this fucking lazy that they can't spend 5 seconds right clicking before they kill a boss or A3/A4 elite pack?
You'll still die a lot before you get that last hit if you buy 500k worth of an MF set. You'll die while changing gear. There are downsides to switching. If it's "too easy" then people shouldn't be complaining so loudly about it. Just sacrifice the 1/3 inventory and 5-10 seconds per elite pack and you're good to go. It's that simple.
If this was a single-player game (or multi-player in a limited scope), I'd probably agree with you on that. It just feels appropriate for a game with an active trading component to not have "only useful things ever drop" aspect.
...I do agree that they should at least have vendored for more but all that really would have done is increased prices of everything since everyone has more gold.
MF was a dumb mechanic in d2, is a dumb mechanic now and the game would be better off without it. The dumb, vocal minority is the only reason it's still in the game.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
That shield posted could probably fetch north of 200 bucks if you RMAH'd it. Probably like a hundred million gold. It's worth a boat load. 28% block (max is 29), 79 res all, 10% crit (perfect), on the highest tier shield = insane.
Anyway, OMG Butcher dropped this
Anyway, OMG Butcher dropped this
cpp_is_king
Member
Not everyone likes game-breaking, overpowered mechanics. Especially when they're clunky and don't fit well into the design of the game. That's why people are complaining. I agree it's trivial for me to do it. But I still don't want to, and it has nothing to do with being lazy.
Considering that many people are still playing simply for that, I'd imagine it's a valid point.
I guess the counter-point here is what reason do you care to swap for the MF% anyway if not the RMAH or farming equipment for Inferno?
It's not about the time it takes, just that it's an annoying hassle that is essentially a forced requirement in order to actually use MF%. It's also more useful than actually gearing MF% in your normal equipment just due to the cost of putting together that set of equipment.
Ultimately, it's nothing but a positive thing to do since a few simple clicks (or a simple click if you script it) can greatly impact your drops. It's practically mandatory for farming otherwise you're wasting your time, more or less.
Edit: Which says a lot about the state of MF% itself when it is best used by being unused. Put together a random assortment of equipment that have it and use it there. Actually using it is almost a waste of an affix unless you overgear the content with the rest of your equipment.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Magic find is game-breaking now? What is this, International Hyperbole Day?
D2 was the best game of the genre hands down and people LOVED MFing. Only when D3 came out and the new generation of WoW kids started flooding in did I start seeing complains about that mechanic.
You can play the game entirely without using MF and still beat it in a reasonable amount of time. Why does the game need to be nerfed to accommodate the lazy?
Diablo 2. Greatest of the genre featured this. How is it gamebreaking?
Again, don't use MF if you don't like it. Or find gear that allows you to kill effectively while having some MF. That's what I do for most of my farming. Giving us a game with many options allowing us to play how we want should be encouraged.
xxjuicesxx
Member
So even if you get a block you still take damage but its reduced by somewhere in that block amount?
Is that factored into the Armor # similar to how a IAS would be factored into the DPS of a weapon?
Is that factored into the Armor # similar to how a IAS would be factored into the DPS of a weapon?
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I've got 216% unbuffed MF and almost 50k deeps on my DH without Sharpshooter. She's so great and fun. I only run act 1 though but I do it so fast and efficiently I get so many ilvl 63 rares.
You don't have to swap gear to kill with high MF. Just have to find good stat items with MF, which can be difficult, which is exactly the point and how it should be.
You don't have to swap gear to kill with high MF. Just have to find good stat items with MF, which can be difficult, which is exactly the point and how it should be.
I found this shield last night and I can't tell if it is trash or not. No primary stats, but what it has seems pretty good.
That's an insane shield, tens of millions worth.
MF% was a different beast there when you could get a good amount without a huge sacrifice. And MF% group functionality was different.
And the entire game played differently anyway. Comparing directly doesn't work so well.
When you get hit, the game mitigates the damage based on your Armor, Resistances, Passives, etc. It then checks to see if you block that mitigated attack. If you do, it blocks up to X amount of damage; if it blocks it all then you don't take any damage and if it doesn't block it all then you just take the remaining damage.
For instance, that Shield can block 3706 to 4706 damage. If you get hit for 4000 and your block chance succeeds, any roll over 4000 will mean the shield absorbed the hit. If you rolled 3706-3999, you'll subtract that from that 4000 damage hit.
They only "loved" it because they got better loot. That's it. You didn't pay much attention if this is the first time you have heard these complaints.
cpp_is_king
Member
Being able to trivially kill every important enemy in the game in such a way that it drops twice as much loot as its supposed to because you clicked a button - yea, game breaking. If they wanted people to do this and supported it, they should jsut remove magic find from the game completely, and buff drop rates even further. Make every boss and champ drop twice as much loot as it currently does. Except that would be stupid, because yes it's possible to have too much of a good thing.
I mean your button clicking gear swap, or even manual clicking gear swap is literally the same as them just doubling drop rates across the board, only about 10% more annoying. So why not just double everyone's drops and delete Magic Find? Would you be ok with that?
the only other option I would support is some separate "token" slot that required a unique piece of gear called a token, that could have anywhere from 50-300% MF on it. And there was no other way to acquire MF at all, period (except NV). Then make it really, really difficult to get a high level MF token.
Bottom line is it should not be trivial to get 350% MF, or even 250% MF. It's that simple.
Folks just got to stop 'being lazy' in this here video game and put together an actual good set of gear that includes the stat if they want to benefit from it. That's all.
I could've sworn MF% was one of the more hated aspects of D2. Rather, the fact that you had to farm with MF% was hated. It was the most important stat to farming and doing it without it was pretty much stupid.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
can't tell if you're mocking/sarcastic or really high-fiving?
Many affixes are annoying... doesn't mean they should be taken out. If I run into reflect dmg on my DH I can slowly kill them or run past.
I disagree that it's more useful than just finding MF on your main gear. Ever since I did that I have less deaths, quicker clears, and more inventory space. Sure, someone using 150k dps gear then switching to 350MF is getting more stuff than me... so what? I'm doing just fine. Some of their "options" hurt me for no good reason. Capping MF? Fuck that noise.
Really high fiving. Its the only way that the system makes sense. They want the stat to be valuable. People should build sets with the stat included. Theres a tradeoff, and its expensive, but all proper gear builds are that way. That's very clearly the point of the stat.
I cannot fathom any argument about why everyone carrying some 10 to 11 pieces in their inventories at all time throughout the lifetime of the game, solely for the purpose of swapping before a boss kill is reasonable. Not everything D2 did is beyond criticism or was perfect, people need to come off that shit, like ASAP. Swapping gear the way people have been is just bad bad design, and its coming out of the game, thankfully.
krameriffic
Member
Every drop should have a chance to be something useful. White items can never be useful in Diablo 3. It's not like D2 where white items can be socketed or imbued by Charsi, or where ethereal items can come with sockets as well, which can be turned into runewords or socketed with really good jewels. There is never any use whatsoever for white items in this game since it lacks an enchantment/enhancement system of any kind.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
We all know they kind of rushed out the game at the end without thoroughly testing everything - especially the onslaught of changes near the end of the beta in the last few months leading to release, but they decided they needed to just get it out and into people's hands with the majority of the game being content complete.
PvP is the best example of this, obviously. They figured that the current content (especially Inferno) would be enough for people to chew on while they finished that up and whatever else (like a true endgame) would need significantly more development time. They misjudged and we've been left with the current situation.
But would I rather they have delayed the game another month or two (or longer)? Probably not.
No, they loved item finding because it was addictive. I never ran into one person who complained about MF being "overpowered and game breaking" and I played a hell of a lot more D2 than the average player.
MF is only 1 stat out of 6/7 on most equipment.
The mechanic serves the same purpose and we're talking about not only 2 games in the same genre, but the same series. If you can't compare that then you can't compare anything. People weren't equipping dual Gulls on their barb for the killing speed. Allowing to freely switch gave an otherwise worthless item purpose, much like it is now with people buying 2 sets of gear instead of just 1.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Some did, but it was still a flawed system then. MF as a gameplay mechanic was terrible.
Friend is using it currently, but this shield is good, yes? Not enough preferred stat slots to see it's "value" so figured asking couldn't hurt:
1086 armor
24% block
3706-4706 block amount
74 dex
77 int
83 vitality
72 resistance to all elements
+7% block
increases elemental arrow damage (lols) by 9%
1086 armor
24% block
3706-4706 block amount
74 dex
77 int
83 vitality
72 resistance to all elements
+7% block
increases elemental arrow damage (lols) by 9%
They scrapped it because it seemed redundant to them. It's - yeah, I dunno.
I could have been doing it wrong, but in D2, it was all about loading up your inventory on MF charms, and farming in MF gear on a class that wasn't dependent on gear like Sorc.
There wasn't this emphasis on last second gear swaps as there is in D3, even if it could be done there.
Even then, referencing D2 as a highlight of the MF system is pretty ridiculous. MF was one of the biggest annoyances and complaints about D2.
There wasn't this emphasis on last second gear swaps as there is in D3, even if it could be done there.
Even then, referencing D2 as a highlight of the MF system is pretty ridiculous. MF was one of the biggest annoyances and complaints about D2.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Yep. Getting these good stat items with MF is an important part of the item hunt. It may seem really hard to do now but you will eventually get it. This type of stuff is why Diablo has so much longevity... long-term item hunt. If we got all the good stuff a month after release the game would die.
How so? It gives more items value and purpose. Using the mechanic is completely optional and has obvious downsides like slower kills, higher risk of death, and less inventory space. Mechanics like this give the players choices in how they want to play the game.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
bashiok said:
This is rich, what about all of us who were constantly telling them during beta that the item hunt alone is not sustainable, given what we know about the Diablo 3 endgame.
I wrote my thoughts about it here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465944
With some prominent loot-whore games on the horizon (Diablo III, Torchlight II, Path of Exile, etc), and with some prominent loot whore games being such a significant part of our history (Diablo I/II, Torchlight, Titan Quest, Borderlands, Dungeon Siege I/II, etc), what do you think of the concept of "magic find" on wearable equipment?
Did it work positively on the games that had it? Were the games that lacked magic find stat better off for not having it?
I understand that it's an evolution of the risk/reward mechanic in the sense that adding magic find comes at the cost of not adding something that will help your damage or your survivability; essentially you are gimping yourself (risk) in order to get better loot (reward).
Some people love it, some hate it, and of course one of the most important things we should be looking at is "is this fun?", but something as subjective as "fun" is a bit hard to measure. What I want to know is if the concept of magic find on gear in a loot-driven game makes sense.
Of course an obvious answer might be, "Of course it makes sense. The objective is to get good loot, and magic find help you get good loot!". But is that really the case?
What is the reason we want to get better loot in these kinds of games?
We want to get better loot to make our characters stronger by increasing our stats. That's one of the main points, right? However, if magic find is such an important stat that we need it to get better loot, doesn't that defeat the purpose of wanting better loot to get stronger?
I mean, if I'm killing monsters and find a really great piece of gear without magic find stat affixes, I'm left with 2 choices:
1. Wear the better gear and kill more monsters faster, but have less chance at getting good items.It seems that in a lot of games with magic find, those 2 choices are rarely equally balanced. Most of the time it's better just to go with option 2, but doing so is counterproductive to the point of the game.
2. Keep my current gear and kill less monsters slower, but have more chance at getting good items.
What's the use of farming for better(more powerful, better stats) gear, if I'm not going to wear it anyway because it doesn't have enough magic find? Is it arbitrarily putting too much power and value in one stat like magic find when instead we should be encouraging the player to value things like skill, strategy, and stat placement?
Is this really the best way to encourage risk/reward? Couldn't we do the same thing without introducing the side effects that "magic find on gear" has?
So what can we do? I guess we could try things like increasing difficulty so that equipping MF gear is more hazardous, or perhaps introducing a cap on MF, but that seems more like band aid fixes.
If it were up to me, I'd probably do away with magic find on gear completely. It gets rid of a large hurdle in balancing it properly. It also takes the game to its basic goal: kill monsters -> get loot. Increasing your power is essentially increasing your capacity to get loot (MF) since the faster you kill, the more loot you get.
If the players feel the need to have more risk/reward in the gameplay, then actually make the game more harder instead of resorting to the players willingly gimping themselves. Allow players to choose to endure harder content for better rewards instead of gimping themselves to counteract the game's lack of difficulty.
Add magic find bonuses for having the players complete the game content and doing it competently. That way there is positive feedback for playing the game in its most fun manner.
Fenderputty
Banned
ok how bout this thing
the ias/dex vit seem nice and the damage converted to life might be alright?
Damage is too low for a 2H weapon.
ForzaFerrari
Neo Member
Wtf EUAH still down? Fuck this joke, roll on 28th of August
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aed55ZYRv4c&feature=g-all-u
So Force is quitting too? And echoing some of the same stuff Kripp and the others have been saying? Alot of these guys are defaulting to stuff like 500k challenges and the like just to maintain their interest in the game. They really need to get something for the endgame out fast, but it sounds like its a long ass way away.
So Force is quitting too? And echoing some of the same stuff Kripp and the others have been saying? Alot of these guys are defaulting to stuff like 500k challenges and the like just to maintain their interest in the game. They really need to get something for the endgame out fast, but it sounds like its a long ass way away.
Woo-Fu
Banned
The kill isn't trivial on any 'important' enemy. Indeed, the kill becomes harder because you're wearing crappy gear.
The enemy doesn't drop twice as much loot. That isn't how MF works.
Clicking a button changes one piece of gear. That will get at most 45% more MF if it is a socketed MF helm or certain legendary weapons. The only people who are doing all of it with one button are using external automation. If you have a problem with external automation you should say that instead of blaming magic find.
So three mistakes and you still failed to explain how it is "game-breaking".
I guess it really is International Hyperbole Day.
The reality of the situation is that they could up drop rates of good gear ten-fold and it wouldn't be "game-breaking". It might make it more entertaining, though, maybe "entertaining" is the same as "broken" in your book? That would explain a lot.
If you were to argue "game-breaking" you'd have to be talking about gold, not items, IMHO, and even then the game wouldn't be broken. The economy would be horrible but that has happened anyway and will continue to happen with or without magic find because inflation isn't coming from people finding good gear, it is coming from people accumulating gold in a game that has little to no gold or item sinks. Indeed, higher drop rates of ilvl 63 gear will help spread some of that gold around so that it isn't only in the hands of the first wave of exploiters.
The increased drop rates have had two noticeable changes, from my point of view. Non-legendary Inferno Essences have gotten cheaper due to more crappy gear getting salvaged and people are generally happier with the game since they feel they actually have a real chance to find something good now. I don't see either of those as bad things.
The only valid argument against MF gear swapping that I've seen presented on this forum or on any other is that it is a pain in the ass. I agree with that argument 100%
What button can I click to swap my whole gear?
- Status