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Diablo III |OT5| Finally out of Beta
- Thread starter CarbonatedFalcon
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I probably need to change my avatar, feels bad
Too early to give up yet. I will let hope live on in my heart until the day the patch hits.
Can't Wizards keep up Archon using Critical Mass?
With the cooldown decrease attribute and tons of resource generating Legendary affixes I wouldn't be too worried about these nerfs. Its going to fun trying out new builds and figuring out new Legendary stuff.
I mean there's a run that guarantees health globe drop on enemy kill and another one that causes a 40 yard explosion for 100% weapon damage... pair those up and you get a semi corpse explosion type build on a Witch Doctor.
With the cooldown decrease attribute and tons of resource generating Legendary affixes I wouldn't be too worried about these nerfs. Its going to fun trying out new builds and figuring out new Legendary stuff.
I mean there's a run that guarantees health globe drop on enemy kill and another one that causes a 40 yard explosion for 100% weapon damage... pair those up and you get a semi corpse explosion type build on a Witch Doctor.
I don't use that mess. Spike trap is now even better for my melee hunter. IMO.
They will most likely have to resort to use Archons only when they need them (i.e. on elites) and use skills that works well with Critical mass (like living lighting, etc) to get the skill up and going by the time the next elite group hits.
Regardless, as much as I enjoy Archon farming in the PC version now, this has to go. The more damage and stats you get, the more insane Archon gets - just imagine the headache it would cause to the devs to balance it out when you have 3000+dps weapons and all that jazz. The better gear available, the more obvious that Archon is vastly superior to everything else, and that is exactly the same situation as with Barbs, so it needs to go.
Well, this will be helpful if you do not have a Life Steal weapon.
Because usually, a good explosion already healed you up with all the crits all around.
Sacrifice Banish your Zombie Dogs and cause them to explode, each dealing 275]% of your weapon damage as Physical to all enemies within 12 yards. / Only summoned Zombie Dogs may be sacrificed.
Kinda sucks, on my softcore WD I play a wacky hybrid build based on a ton of pickupradius (around 45)
Circle of Life spawns me dogs
Grave Injustice (reduces cooldown on my zombie dogs cast if I need it)
Gruesome Feast
They all benefit from that huge ass pickupradius. Sacrifice (next of kin) is used as some kind of secondary nuke, build is far from optimal but it's a ton of fun to play cause everything works so good together, dogs just keep popping up from all over the place :lol
Never had money for a 0CD dogs build.
Kinda sucks, on my softcore WD I play a wacky hybrid build based on a ton of pickupradius (around 45)
Circle of Life spawns me dogs
Grave Injustice (reduces cooldown on my zombie dogs cast if I need it)
Gruesome Feast
They all benefit from that huge ass pickupradius. Sacrifice (next of kin) is used as some kind of secondary nuke, build is far from optimal but it's a ton of fun to play cause everything works so good together, dogs just keep popping up from all over the place :lol
Never had money for a 0CD dogs build.
Dunno
WOTB beeing permanent is what made barbs competitive DPS wise with the rest of the classes. Everyone was taking it because, well, you didn't have a choice.
Instead of fixing that (and the awful way barbs have to generate fury), they nerfed overall crit/crit damage passives, nerfed into the fray (to make it useless), nerfed LS abilities across the board, nerfed WW into something you won't be using period (who in their right mind will want a 33% speed reduction while using abilities?) and made wotb a crutch to use in specific tight spots, which means no one will take it (like earthquake, no one takes it because... the cooldown is too long and the effects are too short).
After almost 18 months playing barb I guess it's time to play the other melee class.
I guess It's fine they're nerfing barbs, after all, they need to promote "that other str class".
I already know what I will be playing. Frozen Orb+Black Hole+Pulsar! No need for fancy tricks, just good old classics (plus the awesomeness of Black hole, given what we know about it so far...)!
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
We are getting ladder mode with RoS, so that is essentially a reset if you want to play on the ladder. I'm betting the first ladder has TONS of crusaders playing on it, lol.
I don't think the speed reduction is that big of a deal when you will be pulling enemies within 45 yards to you. The real problem is of course that it means hurricane is still the only rune people will give a shit about using.
Like you said though, the real problem is them killing into the fray. The more I think about it the more I realize it's not even just a simple nerf to WW, it's going to make every build that relies on spending fury ass to play unless you use the templar, dump paragon points into fury generation, and get gear to compensate. It's a terrible change.
It's not that I am even worried about a nerf to damage, it's more that it just sounds really boring to play when you are going to need to hit an enemy sooooo many times with bash before you can use fury spenders.
http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/travis-day-build-changing-items
I feel sad for Travis when he finally realizes that there is a huge chunk of players that will take +2000 dps (via +0.5% critical chance or +20% critadamage) over an interesting side effect EVERY SINGLE TIME!
I hope they do not fall back on this, and continue implementing those fun ideas and affixes that are being shown. Even if the "pros" will still take that lv73 rare with ias, cc, cd, mainstat over stuff like that. Even then. Even if that means I will be an inferior peasant compared to them, "only" able to farm on mp6-7-8 instead of mp9-10! The horrors...
I feel sad for Travis when he finally realizes that there is a huge chunk of players that will take +2000 dps (via +0.5% critical chance or +20% critadamage) over an interesting side effect EVERY SINGLE TIME!
I hope they do not fall back on this, and continue implementing those fun ideas and affixes that are being shown. Even if the "pros" will still take that lv73 rare with ias, cc, cd, mainstat over stuff like that. Even then. Even if that means I will be an inferior peasant compared to them, "only" able to farm on mp6-7-8 instead of mp9-10! The horrors...
To be fair, you can spend points on Fury generation. Like, there's an entire stat upgrade that they don't want people to avoid simply because of a skill. At least, that's my take on how they're doing the changes: Long-term stat allocation to scale with builds rather than builds that become viable at certain stat numbers.
Wait how is Spike Trap better? It has an extra 1 second delay before explosion.
Also from the look of things... DHs might not even be able to equip melee weapons anymore. At least they can't on console version.
Only way stuff like CD/CC will fall out of favor if there's a hard cap on it. They also might as well remove life steal from the game completely because no skills have it now, no gear has it and only weapons have it. This will make people focus on getting those health globe bonuses, life Regen, life on hit etc. No more having insanely high DPS and coasting on relatively low EHP because of life steal. This will also make Legendary weapons more valuable when you can afford to have one without both CD and LS because none of them will have it.
That's why I mentioned it, but, isn't that really dumb? To me anyway a lot of the nerfs to barbarian look like it's because with the new paragon system you would be able to increase those stats to crazy numbers otherwise. Stuff like crit makes sense, like I said before barbs can get an absurd amount of crit without trying. Not having into the fray completely changes the entire flow of the moment to moment combat with the class, though, it will become a lot slower until you get enough gear or spend enough points to overcome the slow feel. I think it's a poor solution to solving the problem with how OP barbarians are or whatever.
spindoctor
Member
Yea I'm coming around to this line of thought as well. I haven't looked very deeply into all the changes but I'm guessing if they're nerfing skills that got used 100% (like shadow power/into the fray) then there will be some other balance coming. Players will find optimal builds again.
There are people who actually believe these conspiracy theories. I remember this used to happen a lot in Wow. "OMG my class got nerfed because the lead designer plays that other class which was weak against my class and he's obviously playing favorites!"
DH changes are weird, they basically buffed the fuck out of the Grenade build.
-Brooding got buffed, probably not good enough to make it worth picking up still, but potentially viable (especially with Grenade builds?)
-Archery: not sure why they nerfed the Bow bonus, especially when fucking no one actually uses bows (everyone uses either a Manticore or Calamity).
-Custom Engineering is also definitely buffed and seems to further reinforce the Grenade build since you can just toss out your turret/traps and they'll stay up.
-Grenadier also is a huge buff for the Grenade build.
-Multishot seems maybe viable now, and Bola got (seemingly) slight buffs.
-Sharpshooter buff is nice, most people don't use that past the very early game and this still doesn't make it viable past that point, but nice for people just starting out I guess.
-Spike Trap is probably better; the re-arm delay has been increased, but now (apparently?) the base skill has all traps detonating three times, so now we can swap out Echoing Blast for the rune that lets you place all three at once maybe, which in theory is better than now?
-The Action Shot rune change on Vault will probably make that pretty viable now.
-Grenades definitely got buffed. Throw out more grenades that do damage over a way wider radius? YES PLEASE
-Strafe damage buffed as well.
-Shadow Power (and Gloom) definitely got nerfed, but not sure if it's to the point where it really matters. At lower levels and for permastrafing the LoH and reduced damage reduction don't really matter, and at higher levels/Grenade build that's all largely irrelevant as well, especially with how hard it looks like they've buffed the Grenades/Turrets/Traps. Mid-range it might be a problem, and maybe for Rapid Fire builds (which I haven't really messed with).
So overall it seems like they buffed the fucking hell out of the Grenade build which is good, but doesn't ultimately solve the DH's effective DPS problem. We need a skill that lets us detonate traps instantly or something. I'd still gladly take these changes over what we have right now though.
And Barbs got fucked, holy shit. I'll have to look through the Monk stuff later.
Actually .8 seconds (it's going from 1.2 to 2), but right now literally the ONLY viable Spike Trap rune is Echoing Blast because that's what lets it go off 3 times. With 3 detonations now being standard for Spike Trap period, it opens up other rune use, more than likely the one that lets you put down all three at once. Now combine that with the skills that let you keep traps and turrets up forever...
You have to keep in mind that unless they add a way to 100% completely remove the rearm/delay on spike traps they're never going to be as effective as most skills. While it's a shame that wasn't seemingly done here, given the context of what Spike Trap currently is these are buffs; having a longer delay but being able to put down 3 traps at once all detonating three times is a buff over a .8 second shorter delay but only having one down. Again, reading over the changes it seems like they just really buffed the shit out of the Grenade build, but didn't do much else.
-Brooding got buffed, probably not good enough to make it worth picking up still, but potentially viable (especially with Grenade builds?)
-Archery: not sure why they nerfed the Bow bonus, especially when fucking no one actually uses bows (everyone uses either a Manticore or Calamity).
-Custom Engineering is also definitely buffed and seems to further reinforce the Grenade build since you can just toss out your turret/traps and they'll stay up.
-Grenadier also is a huge buff for the Grenade build.
-Multishot seems maybe viable now, and Bola got (seemingly) slight buffs.
-Sharpshooter buff is nice, most people don't use that past the very early game and this still doesn't make it viable past that point, but nice for people just starting out I guess.
-Spike Trap is probably better; the re-arm delay has been increased, but now (apparently?) the base skill has all traps detonating three times, so now we can swap out Echoing Blast for the rune that lets you place all three at once maybe, which in theory is better than now?
-The Action Shot rune change on Vault will probably make that pretty viable now.
-Grenades definitely got buffed. Throw out more grenades that do damage over a way wider radius? YES PLEASE
-Strafe damage buffed as well.
-Shadow Power (and Gloom) definitely got nerfed, but not sure if it's to the point where it really matters. At lower levels and for permastrafing the LoH and reduced damage reduction don't really matter, and at higher levels/Grenade build that's all largely irrelevant as well, especially with how hard it looks like they've buffed the Grenades/Turrets/Traps. Mid-range it might be a problem, and maybe for Rapid Fire builds (which I haven't really messed with).
So overall it seems like they buffed the fucking hell out of the Grenade build which is good, but doesn't ultimately solve the DH's effective DPS problem. We need a skill that lets us detonate traps instantly or something. I'd still gladly take these changes over what we have right now though.
And Barbs got fucked, holy shit. I'll have to look through the Monk stuff later.
Actually .8 seconds (it's going from 1.2 to 2), but right now literally the ONLY viable Spike Trap rune is Echoing Blast because that's what lets it go off 3 times. With 3 detonations now being standard for Spike Trap period, it opens up other rune use, more than likely the one that lets you put down all three at once. Now combine that with the skills that let you keep traps and turrets up forever...
You have to keep in mind that unless they add a way to 100% completely remove the rearm/delay on spike traps they're never going to be as effective as most skills. While it's a shame that wasn't seemingly done here, given the context of what Spike Trap currently is these are buffs; having a longer delay but being able to put down 3 traps at once all detonating three times is a buff over a .8 second shorter delay but only having one down. Again, reading over the changes it seems like they just really buffed the shit out of the Grenade build, but didn't do much else.
While true, they also just took Echoing Blast and made it the default anyway. Ultimately, it seems like the Grenade tank DH build got a bit of a buff for themselves from this.
No, I agree that Into the Fray may be a bit over the top for the nerf. Just remarking that the general design decision across the board seems to be like you outline here. The new paragon system can potentially allow for crazy numbers so there's more scaling on the skills to go with them rather than flat numbers thrown around.
And then Life Steal getting shredded everywhere :x Not sure what to make of things yet with limited information.
Yeah, Grenade tank build just became way more viable. I can already right now do MP10 and not die, it's just arguably not time efficient. If you gave me these changes right now I would fucking melt MP10, and with the Grenade build the Shadow Power/Gloom nerfs aren't a big deal. It's just still kind of weird to me how hard they buffed this particular build, but I'll honestly take the Shadow Power nerfs for it.
It's going to basically cement the DH into weird setups where we can probably now pretty efficiently do MP10 solo, but our effective dps in group play and farming speed still kinda suck.
This is all in a vacuum though, we'll need to see how this actually plays and how the other new skills and whatnot work out. I'm not particularly up in arms as a DH main though; at face value these are largely all buffs, but maybe just not in the direction I quite want (want more viable group/farm ability).
I was never a fan of the Rocket/Ballistics thing myself, but yeah that seems decent now. It seems like Multishot is maybe viable as well now, that would be something could potentially make DH's more useful in group play. Again, mainly waiting to see how these changes actually work out, but I don't feel like we're getting nerfed to bad here, especially in comparison to some other classes.
It's really only Barbarians that got heavily nerfed. Their 3 best passives got big nerfs or straight up reworked. Into the Fray got reworked. Thrive on Chaos reworked. Hurricane reworked. Rend Bloodbath reworked. Would not be surprised at Sprint's Run like the Wind having lower procs.
I honestly saw this coming a mile away and basically stated in the console thread that these skills would be nerfed. Just didn't expect Blizzard to go so hard in on life steal but it makes sense... when you have 3K DPS weapons dropping your life steal starts to become so much better. I honestly think they should remove LS completely from the game... have players focus on stuff like LoH, life Regen, life %, health globe bonuses, block chance/dodge chance and health per resource spent.
I honestly saw this coming a mile away and basically stated in the console thread that these skills would be nerfed. Just didn't expect Blizzard to go so hard in on life steal but it makes sense... when you have 3K DPS weapons dropping your life steal starts to become so much better. I honestly think they should remove LS completely from the game... have players focus on stuff like LoH, life Regen, life %, health globe bonuses, block chance/dodge chance and health per resource spent.
Yeah, I'm actually playing Diablo 3 on console with some friends right now so I hadn't looked through all of the other changes yet haha. I'm willing to see how things actually shape up, too many unknowns right now. I have to image the Barb forums on bnet are fucking melting right now though.
Yes and no. I've played WoW/Diablo long enough to realise that when an expansion brings new playable classes, those usually shine a lot on release (before beeing toned down a few patches later).
You need to incentivize your fanbase into trying something else. By neutering barbarians (because frankly, those changes go way beyond "fixing" barbs) you're actually encouraging them to try out that new class, so that their gear doesn'T become worthless (now that 2h/board talent makes sense).
Will I play the crusader? Yes, I play every melee class. Do I believe barbs were nuked from orbit because of it? Not really. Do I believe it will help crusaders rerolls?
You can be sure it will.
they only nerfed WW and perma wrath. guess what Barb is still viable via Hammer of the Ancients. into the fry, the more mobs the more crit chance? give me that shit. ww pulling mobs together? give me that shit.
all you need for hammer build is a fury gen (frenzy or bash), hammer and rend. other skills dont really matter.
PS:
Weapon throw no longer cost fury but gain fury? I can now actually thow things 24/7 without wearing specific gear set.
all you need for hammer build is a fury gen (frenzy or bash), hammer and rend. other skills dont really matter.
PS:
Weapon throw no longer cost fury but gain fury? I can now actually thow things 24/7 without wearing specific gear set.
Why would I play a barb if it was to use a ranged playstyle?
Throwing is nice if you want to agro a pack on top of whatever you're killing right now without moving, that's it. I'm not playing barb to pussy out of melee range.
And the changes go beyond just nerfing WW/WOTB, ITF/Ruthless/WM were all made terrible
Throwing is nice if you want to agro a pack on top of whatever you're killing right now without moving, that's it. I'm not playing barb to pussy out of melee range.
And the changes go beyond just nerfing WW/WOTB, ITF/Ruthless/WM were all made terrible
passive nerf isnt that much big deal.
blood thirst lifesteal nerf? fine, barbs have mighty belt.
weapon master/ ruthless nerf? get 2 piece natalya set.
overall dps will be less but it doesnt matter as much because barb's edps is still one of the best via hammer build.
No one is going to be mass exporting their gear from Barb to Crusader because aside from the Rubies most of that gear will be worthless in the expansion when you have 3000 DPS weapons dropping and Legendaries scaling to ilvl70.
In addition a lot of people who play the game a ton will be playing on Ladder which means starting fresh. Plus there are a fuck ton of universal changes plus Legendary affixes that change up the game a lot builds wise. A lot of people are saying Crit Chance/CD are being nerfed so that you don't get big numbers from gear and skills in addition Life Steal got nerfed for everyone.
There is going to be a lot of rediscovery of the game at the initial phases. You can bet your candy ass there will be some OP shit propping up causing Blizzard to implement hot fixes or even Ladder resets.
In addition a lot of people who play the game a ton will be playing on Ladder which means starting fresh. Plus there are a fuck ton of universal changes plus Legendary affixes that change up the game a lot builds wise. A lot of people are saying Crit Chance/CD are being nerfed so that you don't get big numbers from gear and skills in addition Life Steal got nerfed for everyone.
There is going to be a lot of rediscovery of the game at the initial phases. You can bet your candy ass there will be some OP shit propping up causing Blizzard to implement hot fixes or even Ladder resets.
/shrug, for viability? Same reason lots of Bats WD, Grenade DH and CM/Tornado Wizards have a ranged class, but fight everything in melee range.
Well that and they obviously haven't finished tweaking all the numbers, some of those won't even see the light of day.
Hammer build relies on ITF/ruthless/weapon master
Guess which ones got nerfed into oblivion?
Oh yes, all of them
if monk can spam their bells why cant barb spam hammer after the nerf?
monk dont even have passives that give free crit, monk dont have skills similiar to into the fry either. they rely 100 percent on spirit generator for bell spam.
the key, dual wield, stack ias. if you one of them skorn barbs, its time to try new weapons.
Man you guys talked about everything I was going to say!
Having played the Grenades-based meleehunter since Launch, (before it was cool) I am very very happy with the changes to Grenades and Spike Trap. The other changes to passives and such make me very happy as well, and I can't wait to see what kinds of crazy affixes I can get to work with it (especially that "use all runes for one skill") one.
Nirvana build relies on Infinite Spirit Generation via two skills and TRBells relies on Exploding Palm with Strong Spirit to go from full -> 0 -> full in a single clear. Sitting around and generating Spirit just from Spirit Generators is fairly rare really for any Bell build.
I mean, I was just noting that Monk's go out of their way with their builds to avoid the situation of relying on their Spirit Generators and they already have a better situation than Barbs :x Fist of Fury/Infused with Light or Strong Spirit are both their version of Into the Fray, really.
I am sure people are going to figure out how to generate Fury on Barb consistently. Probably not at the same rate as Nirvana Monk build but enough that you can spam it with impunity. Although I was still shocked that they didn't do anything about MoC Overawe and Nirvana build for Monk plus no change on OWE when they have been promising a nerf since forever..
Maybe people will start using that Sword and Board passive that generates 20 Fury on block. Get a Helm of Command plus a shield with lots of block %, stand in a big pack and start spamming Hammer.
Maybe people will start using that Sword and Board passive that generates 20 Fury on block. Get a Helm of Command plus a shield with lots of block %, stand in a big pack and start spamming Hammer.
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