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Diablo III |OT5| Finally out of Beta

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Dahbomb

Member
If you think monks are cheaper to gear than other classes then you don't know what you're talking about. Monk is probably the most expensive class to gear. Unlike the range classes, monk needs high resist and unlike barbarians, they don't have warcry to rely on.
While I definitely believe Battle Cry is too good, I also don't think Monks are expensive to gear for progress sake. I have built two Monks for around 1 million - 2 million and that was before patch 1.04 when good rares were still expensive and we didn't have 6 affix searches. It's very easy to make a 35k health, 20k dps, 1000 res monk which can now beat the game.

On the flip side it is much more difficult to make a farm efficient Monk like the other 3 classes (Wizard, Barb, DH)). You need much more expensive gear than a WW Barb to farm at the same rate.
 

Kenaras

Member
Lol I will laugh my ass off if OWE gets nerfed into oblivion. It's seriously the most OP defensive ability in the game. Basically allows Monks to gear for Act 3/4 at a fraction of what the other classes have to pay. Has always kinda pissed me off though. It probably won't happen though seeing as how integral to that class it is at this point.

One With Everything isn't even the best defensive ability Monks have, much less the "most OP" in the game.
 

Vodh

Junior Member
By the way, some might find this useful for purposes of estimating potential profits from magic find on items:

Blizzard has stated, that the way MF works is that every time an item is rolled, the game determines it's quality this way: There's a chance it will be legendary, a chance it will be rare with 6 props, chance for it to be rare with 5 props and so on, all the way to the bottom. So basically when an item is rolled, the game checks if it's a legendary - if it's not, the game checks if it's a six-prop rare, five-prop rare, and so on.

Now the rolls are random. But for the purpose of this argument, let's think of it in a slightly different way. Let's say whenever an item drops, it could be one of 6 options: a legendary, a 6 prop rare, 5prop, 4prop, 3prop or complete shit. And since it doesn't change anything, let's say all those are allready rolled for, and now the MF lottery only determines which one are we going to get. So we have to factor in the NV, our paragon levels and all the already owned MF. Basically, every point of MF under the cap (that is, every point that actually increases our MF) will increase our chance to get the better item at least a factor of 0.21 (1 divided by(100% base MF + 75 NV + 299 paragon + items MF). For the Paragon 0 and no MF items it's a bit more than 0.5.

Basically what I'm saying is that every single of MF can be estimated to increase our profits from auctioning items by anywhere from 0.2% to 0.5%. So an item with 10% Magic Find will yield an estimated 2%-5% increase in profits. Multiply this by FUCKING RNG LET ME ROLL A FUCKING JACKPOT ALREADY, and voila, you've got the estimated worth of your MF piece.

TL;DR - everything below 100-150 base MF is a really fucking good long term investment since the last paragon levels will take forever.
 

linsivvi

Member
While I definitely believe Battle Cry is too good, I also don't think Monks are expensive to gear for progress sake. I have built two Monks for around 1 million - 2 million and that was before patch 1.04 when good rares were still expensive and we didn't have 6 affix searches. It's very easy to make a 35k health, 20k dps, 1000 res monk which can now beat the game.

On the flip side it is much more difficult to make a farm efficient Monk like the other 3 classes (Wizard, Barb, DH)). You need much more expensive gear than a WW Barb to farm at the same rate.

Look, let me give you a concrete example. First of all, I don't think it's arguable that range classes need less defense than melee classes.

So let's consider this chest armor:
Armor 500
Prime stat 150
Vit 100
All resist 50

Pretty good, right? Except that for melee classes, they'll need more defense to get the same effect. For barbarians, this piece of armor essentially has armor 600, str 150, vit 100 and all resist 75. I'll dismiss the additional str bonus on armor since monks have dodge from dex.

For monks to get the same effect, they'll need to:

1) Use Mantra of Evasion with Hard Target, and One with Everything. That's 2 skills instead of 1.
2) Find a piece of chest armor that has the same stats but with 75 combined resist.

So how can he claims that monk can "gear for Act 3/4 at a fraction of what the other classes have to pay" when they need to look for an additional attribute just to match up with the other classes?

Not only that, if you understand how rare item works, you know that they can only have 6 affixes. That means when other classes look for something with 50 all resist, they are looking at items that have up to 5 affixes for other things while monks with OWE are looking at items that have only 4 affixes left.

So not only are monks paying MORE than other classes, they are basically paying more for INFERIOR gears.
 

IlludiumQ36

Member
Personally, I think Blizz is about to bust up All Resist as the defining affix for armors (and rightfully so). This one stat on an item, or lack thereof, can be the difference between smelt/vendor/toss and 10 million on the AH.

OWE (as well as Impunity and Prismatic Armor) wouldn't be the must-use skills if AR wasn't the most important affix to survivability and advancement in the later acts. That doesn't do anything to promote diversity.
 

Keikaku

Member
Just as an update to my post from yesterday, I decided to buy new equipment for my WD, again using the in-game gold at the AH. I went a bit over my limit of 100K but I still did pretty good.

I spent: 112K (Exact, I just used the buyout option)
I wanted: All equipment to have most, if not all of the same stats as the old (sockets included) just with higher values.
I got:
  • MF went up from 166-178%
  • DPS went up from 6.9K to 14.7K
  • INT went up about 170 points

I'm still sitting pretty on just about 650K gold, almost double what I started with yesterday. Man, I love the AH.
 
This ... this is a joke post right?

Monk are the easiest to gear and can achieve 1000 all res with a bit of gold.

But then, keeping that res with decent hp, and ultimately, good dps, is a fucking joke.

I went from 15k dps with 900 all res to 40k dps with 700 all res and it cost me 60 millons.
 

zulux21

Member
no way 1.0.5 will be available in the next week

Diablo 3′s update 1.0.5 is coming, and Blizzard has issued a sneak peek at the contents regarding defensive skill changes, the new Infernal Machine event, and the new Monster Power system. The developer said to look for more articles on what to expect with the patch in “the coming days.”

from vg24/7 I can't get it off the blizzard site because it has blown up lol
 

sleepykyo

Member
Look, let me give you a concrete example. First of all, I don't think it's arguable that range classes need less defense than melee classes.

So let's consider this chest armor:
Armor 500
Prime state 150
Vit 100
All resist 50

Pretty good, right? Except that for melee classes, they'll need more defense to get the same effect. For barbarians, this piece of armor essentially has armor 600, str 150, vit 100 and all resist 75. I'll dismiss the additional str bonus on armor since monks have dodge from dex.

For monks to get the same effect, they'll need to:

1) Use Mantra of Evasion with Hard target, and One with Everything. That's 2 skills instead of 1.
2) Find a piece of chest armor that has the same stats but with 75 combined resist.

So how can he claims that monk can "gear for Act 3/4 at a fraction of what the other classes have to pay" when they need to look for an additional attribute just to match up with the other classes?

Not only that, if you understand how rare item works, you know that they can only have 6 afflix. That means when other classes look for something with 50 all resist, they are looking at items that have up to 5 afflix for other things while monks with OWE are looking at items that have only 4 afflix left.

So not only are monks paying MORE than other classes, they are basically paying more for INFERIOR gears.

Except it neglects that every barb sees that piece as pretty good. The chest armor that consists of 40 lightning resist and 35 AR is only really good to one subset of monks.
 
Just as an update to my post from yesterday, I decided to buy new equipment for my WD, again using the in-game gold at the AH. I went a bit over my limit of 100K but I still did pretty good.

I spent: 112K (Exact, I just used the buyout option)
I wanted: All equipment to have most, if not all of the same stats as the old (sockets included) just with higher values.
I got:
  • MF went up from 166-178%
  • DPS went up from 6.9K to 14.7K
  • INT went up about 170 points

I'm still sitting pretty on just about 650K gold, almost double what I started with yesterday. Man, I love the AH.

your dps is only 14k as a WD ? Are you Eu or US ? I can give you gear...
 

linsivvi

Member
Monk are the easiest to gear and can achieve 1000 all res with a bit of gold.

But then, keeping that res with decent hp, and ultimately, good dps, is a fucking joke.

I went from 15k dps with 900 all res to 40k dps with 700 all res and it cost me 60 millons.

Oh and I missed the most important point: resist is over-rated since 1.0.3 because it doesn't do anything to the things that really kills you, namely desecrate, molten, fire chain, etc. Only armor reduces damages from those things.
 

Keikaku

Member
your dps is only 14k as a WD ? Are you Eu or US ? I can give you gear...
Thanks for the offer!

I'm on US. I should mention that I'm level 59, playing through Act 2 Hell (just about to get to Belial) and haven't even hit Inferno on any character. I'm way, way behind most of the people in here :p

14K gets the job done and then some.
 

sleepykyo

Member
Oh and I missed the most important point: resist is over-rated since 1.0.3 because it doesn't do anything to the things that really kills you, namely desecrate, molten, fire chain, etc. Only armor reduces damages from those things.

It is a shame they haven't fixed that. The amount of wizards and monks that die to fire grates in ACT3 is insane.
 
Haven't played in a few weeks. Is there anything in 1.05 which might draw me back in (basically have beaten the game and not seeing any challenge left)?

I would look at the sneak peek but the site seems to be down.
 

zulux21

Member
It is a shame they haven't fixed that. The amount of wizards and monks that die to fire grates in ACT3 is insane.

yeah... that was surprising last night. I got myself up to 500 Resist all and 33k life as a DH and the fire grate 1 hit me lol

I can just stand in the fire in the later parts of act 3 so it was weird.
 
Monk are the easiest to gear and can achieve 1000 all res with a bit of gold.

But then, keeping that res with decent hp, and ultimately, good dps, is a fucking joke.
I went from 15k dps with 900 all res to 40k dps with 700 all res and it cost me 60 millons.

Ok ... so you're proving my point. What's the point of 1000 resist if you can't kill anything? How many people here are playing for progression anymore? People are farming. If a ton of people were still progressing the small market items would sell on the AH. They're not selling. People are farming and plaing their main for more paragon. Monk is not a cheap character to gear. To say so is silly at best.

Except it neglects that every barb sees that piece as pretty good. The chest armor that consists of 40 lightning resist and 35 AR is only really good to one subset of monks.

Which completely ignores the fact that a Babs main stat competes with NO ONE. Neither does a Wiz. Monks have to compete with DH's. A DH sees and piece of 120 DEX, 120 VIT, 50 ALL RES, 35 ARCANE RES and 2 SOC and get just as excited as I do. Just because only a subset of monks might want that gear doesn't mean that other DH's woudn't as well.

You're also not taking into consideration that I now have to look for one more stat on that piece to make it vaible for me. All monks really. A fire monk would have to have this piece be fire instead of arcane. So the pool of availble pieces is smaller. A DH just looks for the ALL RES and considers the ARCANE and adder. I'm tied into looking for that "adder"
 

Prezhulio

Member
can anyone explain the best way to sell gold on rmah?

finally offloaded those immortal king's irons and want to cash that gold out. the price it autolists if 5 cents less than the last trades, can i set it for whatever the last 10 trades was and expect it to move quick?
 

linsivvi

Member
This is true, I wasn't thinking about the WD. Though I would still argue that there's more DH's than there are WD's.

I would be curious to see a breakdown of classes at level 60 and a certain level of paragon.

top_paragon.png


It's silly for anyone to make any complain about monks. They were a middle of the road class back when Demon Hunter ruled and they've remained right in the middle of the pack now that Barbarians are the kings.

Witch Doctor: LOL.
 

sleepykyo

Member
You're also not taking into consideration that I now have to look for one more stat on that piece to make it vaible for me. All monks really. A fire monk would have to have this piece be fire instead of arcane. So the pool of availble pieces is smaller. A DH just looks for the ALL RES and considers the ARCANE and adder. I'm tied into looking for that "adder"

And you're substituting that adder for all resists in some situations which is something no other class can do. DH's must have given up on tanking at this point. I can see the argument that the non-melee classes don't care as much about defense, but if we accept that we can't claim DH's are competing with Monks.

We've seen in this very thread where every non-Barb looks at something and gives a number and the poster comes back with a higher number. Maybe all of us can check to see what our monk would cost as a Barb and come back.
 

ZenaxPure

Member
TL;DR - everything below 100-150 base MF is a really fucking good long term investment since the last paragon levels will take forever.

This is actually why I decided to buy a few MF pieces for pretty cheap. Paragon level 19 (close to 20) and I have something like 285% mf with nv. I don't see myself ever making it to a point where mf is mostly useless before Blizzard nerfs paragon levels in one way or another (less xp, more xp per kill, account wide paragon levels, removing MF stat altogether, etc.) so I am pretty happy with it.

I have the time, but, no desire whatsoever to go grind pure XP so some mf gear looked like a nice investment.

Anyway, I'm actually excited for 1.0.5, glad to see blizzard agrees shit hits too hard. Of course this is blizzard so there is no guarantee nerfing damage down and defensive abilities will actually bring in more spec diversity but I will get my hopes up anyway.
 

Rokam

Member
Not sure if anyone is running a 2H barb, but is there a base resistance/DPS I should be going for headed into Act3. I'm near 1k Resist w/shout and I get absolutely destroyed :(.
 

linsivvi

Member
And you're substituting that adder for all resists in some situations which is something no other class can do. DH's must have given up on tanking at this point. I can see the argument that the non-melee classes don't care as much about defense, but if we accept that we can't claim DH's are competing with Monks.

We've seen in this very thread where every non-Barb looks at something and gives a number and the poster comes back with a higher number. Maybe all of us can check to see what our monk would cost as a Barb and come back.

Let me say this again: Rare items can only have 6 affixes. Max.

Needing 2 affixes for resist instead of 1 is a penalty, not a bonus.

WW barbs are also very cheap to gear, and you can see that chart above. If you want to compare classes there's no way monk is more desirable.
 

ZenaxPure

Member
Not sure if anyone is running a 2H barb, but is there a base resistance/DPS I should be going for headed into Act3. I'm near 1k Resist w/shout and I get absolutely destroyed :(.

What spec? For Act 3 I would suggest over 30k dps, more if you can manage. You're only real solution for 2h is more LoH and honestly tossing in rend with the healing rune will help a lot.
 

Rokam

Member
What spec? For Act 3 I would suggest over 30k dps, more if you can manage. You're only real solution for 2h is more LoH and honestly tossing in rend with the healing rune will help a lot.

I'm at 35k dps with shout and running Rend build, I guess I'll start working on more LoH then, thanks!
 
And you're substituting that adder for all resists in some situations which is something no other class can do. DH's must have given up on tanking at this point. I can see the argument that the non-melee classes don't care as much about defense, but if we accept that we can't claim DH's are competing with Monks.
We've seen in this very thread where every non-Barb looks at something and gives a number and the poster comes back with a higher number. Maybe all of us can check to see what our monk would cost as a Barb and come back.

Why can't I make that claim? When "not as much" means "not at all", then I'll stop making the claim.
 

Zvolen12

Neo Member
Oh and I missed the most important point: resist is over-rated since 1.0.3 because it doesn't do anything to the things that really kills you, namely desecrate, molten, fire chain, etc. Only armor reduces damages from those things.

Is this true? No wonder I've been getting wrecked by fire. Is there plans to fix this, if thats the case I should off load some AR for +Amor or St.
 

ZenaxPure

Member
I'm at 35k dps with shout and running Rend build, I guess I'll start working on more LoH then, thanks!

I haven't messed with the spec much but it seems you use sprint tornados there similar to the WW spec, idk if you are doing that. If so more LoH will help a lot and from what little I did mess with it enemies die pretty fast if you toss out a rend then just run circles around them. 4 or 5 enemies with rend + tornados is enough to heal you to full very quickly.
 

sleepykyo

Member
Let me say this again: Rare items can only have 6 affixes. Max.

Needing 2 affixes for resist instead of 1 is a penalty, not a bonus.

WW barbs are also very cheap to gear, and you can see that chart above. If you want to compare classes there's no way monk is more desirable.

It is definitely penalty roll wise. Is it a bigger penalty than competing against thousands of other barbs for gear though? Your chart seems to indicate that Barbs are more popular than the Monks and DHs combined amongst the high paragon levels.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Really surprised to see DH below the Monks in usage. I always thought it was the other way around. I guess a lot of people dropped DH after the NT nerf.

The rest is on par with what you see online.
 

linsivvi

Member
It is definitely penalty roll wise. Is it a bigger penalty than competing against thousands of other barbs for gear though? Your chart seems to indicate that Barbs are more popular than the Monks and DHs combined amongst the high paragon levels.

1) DH + Monk is a bigger percentage of the pie than Barbarian according to the chart.

2) It doesn't matter. WW Barbarians are much cheaper to gear. It's not even arguable. All they need for their offhand is a low dps high LOH weapon with a slot, and they can do more damage than what their dps indicate.

Really surprised to see DH below the Monks in usage. I always thought it was the other way around. I guess a lot of people dropped DH after the NT nerf.

The rest is on par with what you see online.

I played both DH and Monk equally before the NT nerf. Since then, I've stopped playing my DH completely.
 

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
My wizard has 100k dps before buffs. WW barbs that aren't even half as geared as I am can farm more efficiently that I can. It's kind of silly.

I'd be more salty that they haven't nerfed WW barbs by now if wizards didn't get a head start on most other classes when the game first came out, though.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I played both DH and Monk equally before the NT nerf. Since then, I've stopped playing my DH completely.
I started with a DH in D3, in fact I had planned on playing a DH before the game's release. After completing Inferno with the DH I started a Monk. This was right after the first Inferno nerf when melee classes were made more viable so I thought it was the perfect time. Since then my Monk has been getting stronger thanks to the various changes to the game's systems. After I cleared Inferno with Monk and reached LVL10 Paragon I started a Barb which has just reached lvl60 as well.

I went back to my DH only to realize that most of my gear had IAS and my DH struggled even in Act 2. I am sure if I sell on my current gear (which is junk anyway) and build a gear from scratch I can make it as efficient as my Monk now. I just don't find the DH as interesting anymore especially since most of her really fun spells lost viability coming into Inferno. Hopefully the CC buffs rectifies this.
 

linsivvi

Member
I started with a DH in D3, in fact I had planned on playing a DH before the game's release. After completing Inferno with the DH I started a Monk. This was right after the first Inferno nerf when melee classes were made more viable so I thought it was the perfect time. Since then my Monk has been getting stronger thanks to the various changes to the game's systems. After I cleared Inferno with Monk and reached LVL10 Paragon I started a Barb which has just reached lvl60 as well.

I went back to my DH only to realize that most of my gear had IAS and my DH struggled even in Act 2. I am sure if I sell on my current gear (which is junk anyway) and build a gear from scratch I can make it as efficient as my Monk now. I just don't find the DH as interesting anymore especially since most of her really fun spells lost viability coming into Inferno. Hopefully the CC buffs rectifies this.

That's pretty much my story too.

Before 1.0.3 my DH was doing fine in act 3 but after the patch, which is supposed to make the game easier (and it did, for the most part), my DH was dying even in act 2. So I switched over to monk exclusively and never looked back.
 

sleepykyo

Member
1) DH + Monk is a bigger percentage of the pie than Barbarian according to the chart.

2) It doesn't matter. WW Barbarians are much cheaper to gear. It's not even arguable. All they need for their offhand is a low dps high LOH weapon with a slot, and they can do more damage than what their dps indicate.



I played both DH and Monk equally before the NT nerf. Since then, I've stopped playing my DH completely.

Post adjustment for heroscore. Does that really count toward popularity?

Really surprised to see DH below the Monks in usage. I always thought it was the other way around. I guess a lot of people dropped DH after the NT nerf.

The rest is on par with what you see online.

1st character. Dropped due to boredom. Sadly never intend to go back.

Both melee classes have a defensive/offensive defensive styles. Wizards start off kiting and progress to Wickedwind. Thanks to the current buffs to pets, WD can still go bears or go summoner. The DH will kite and be glass cannon, Blizzard has made clear that is all she'll ever do.
 

Slayer-33

Liverpool-2
The second they nerf trail of cinders it'll get even worse lol...

It's the one thing that still makes it a little interesting and challenging when playing my DH.
 

Shadow780

Member
Yeah I used to play DH primarily but ever since I got enough gears for ww barbs I've moved on. It's just cheaper to use barbs economically.
 

sleepykyo

Member
The second they nerf trail of cinders it'll get even worse lol...

It's the one thing that still makes it a little interesting and challenging when playing my DH.

The paragon levels might mitigate that. Would you really switch classes and give up 20p levels?

edit:
Wonder when Blizzard is going to release usage stats again.
 

Dahbomb

Member
It's solid for a Cold Monk but not crazy godly. People these days want the full trifecta (crit chance, damage and ias) + main stat on their gloves.

I have quite a few gloves like those. Either they have high cri damage, ias or chance but very rarely 2 at once and even rarer the trifecta.
 

Tom Penny

Member
It's solid for a Cold Monk but not crazy godly. People these days want the full trifecta (crit chance, damage and ias) + main stat on their gloves.

I have quite a few gloves like those. Either they have high cri damage, ias or chance but very rarely 2 at once and even rarer the trifecta.

Yeah. I was looking at these. Crit damage above 30 would be nice.

gloves2.jpg
 

suffah

Does maths and stuff
My wizard has 100k dps before buffs. WW barbs that aren't even half as geared as I am can farm more efficiently that I can. It's kind of silly.

I'd be more salty that they haven't nerfed WW barbs by now if wizards didn't get a head start on most other classes when the game first came out, though.

What's your movement speed? Have you tried scramble?

I don't think barbs at half your gear can farm as efficient as a good Archon build (100k dps unbuffed).
 

Miletius

Member
Ditch that shield and replace it with a weapon with dex, crit damage and a slot and put a green gem in it. Depending on the DPS, such a weapon can be had for very little gold these days.

Thanks. I have a 2 hander with the same kind of stats -- do you think I should just use that instead? I tested it out in game and it seems like I can survive with the 2h in Act 3 just fine, just have to be a bit more careful. Maybe the changes to my skill set (Mantra of Retri to Evasion, FoT with dodge from Sweeping Strike) helped me past some invisble threshold of surviability.

On a more general note I'd love to get to the 30-40k dps range and just start wrecking things but without gold it's probably impossible. I got a Quiver with 15 IAS, 8.5 percent crit, +150 dex, +9 max dicipline and a socket, nearest comparable one was starting bid 5million so I threw it up on the AH for a similar price with no buyout. I'd love to have a big payday on that, even the min bid would get me 2x the amount of gold I have right now, enough to really start saving for big upgrades instead of limiting myself to the 100-200k range as I farm enough gold for something really nice.
 
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