Digital Foundry crew bash Windows for 18 minutes straight

The only thing that "bothers" me on windows on my rigs is a message popping up now and then saying "couldn't find the app to start ms game bar" (as i've unbloated windows using win util and deleted all unnecessary apps and services, including the game bar, copilot, recall, adobe, background apps etc].

I can't figure out how to stop the message from appearing, but it doesn't impact anything, and dissapears on its own.
 
Not shocked to hear any of this, Windows is an absolute pain in the ass to troubleshoot and seems to break with every big update.

Rn I'm waiting for the day when proper Linux support rolls out to Nvidia drivers so I can leave Windows behind forever.
 
This is not just about Windows tbh...Something that will always be a hot take but idgaf: Gaming in platforms that have to work on countless pieces of hardware will never be as stable as a piece of hardware that runs custom made hardware and a UI made specifically for it, that also happens to run games made specifically for them.
Honestly, at some point someone is going to need to pull the plug on legacy support. I'd love to see what AMD/NVidia/Intel could do without needing to support all the legacy bullshit that we've accreted in x86/64 over 5 decades and just create a modern bloat free hardware and OS.
 
Honestly, at some point someone is going to need to pull the plug on legacy support. I'd love to see what AMD/NVidia/Intel could do without needing to support all the legacy bullshit that we've accreted in x86/64 over 5 decades and just create a modern bloat free hardware and OS.
That is already like that. Try to run Warhammer: Dark Omen in a 10 years old PC. That's why GOG exists.
 
Other than the kernel level anti-cheat compatibility issue, I have had zero issues with using steamos/bazzite as my primary gaming device. Much prefer it to windows.
 
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Never had issue's with windows 11
Me either, half the time i don't really understand where this complaints about everything windows comes from. I work 12 hours a day in differente computers with windows 11, i had one or two small issues if so. I game on my pc, no issues whatsoever.
 
Windows 11 is a mixed bag. It does have decent compatibility and a lot of the things it gets blamed for are actually messes created by third parties. On the other hand the user experience is straight up worse than even Windows 10 and the upgrade process and end of support was just trash. The new features they add seem to be planned out by people who should be sent to an asylum rather than a board room.
 
Windows is pretty awful these days because Microsoft sacked their QA team years ago and now just push out beta and release previews, relying on users to report bugs. They also apparently use AI to code 30% of Windows.

I use Windows 11 and last year had to wait six months for Microsoft to fix a bug that caused Star Wars: Outlaws to constantly crash to the desktop without any kind of logged error or error message. It's issues like that and the time it takes for Microsoft to acknowledge and address them that can make Windows a frustrating experience.

I've always being puzzled as to why with all the many years of experience Microsoft have had with Windows, why they seemingly cannot produce a version of Windows that is streamlined and optimised for games like the Xbox UI. It's still surprising to me just how awful the Microsoft Store and Xbox app are in Windows, to the extent that I cancelled my GamePass subscription in May 2024 because I was just so sick and fed up of games being broken by updates that I decided I'd just buy them on Steam instead. And, guess what, these same games installed to the same drives as the GamePass versions work flawlessly on Steam; no issues with updates at all.
 
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you mean the lack of support for the spyware anti cheat software on Linux being shoe-horned into most games these days?

Games run fine on proton if they aren't packaged with that spyware shit.
They really don't. Try playing older games on Linux. You realise Incredibly quickly just how much of a hassle it is to get them to work correctly. And then there's the ones that rely on community dlls to fix and improve things on modern OS. From EAX audio to graphical fixes. Those files won't even work with said games on Linux. At best you end up with a wrapper within a wrapper within another wrapper. No thanks.

The compatibility just isn't there. Like not even close.
 
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They really don't. Try playing older games on Linux. You realise Incredibly quickly just how much of a hassle it is to get them to work correctly. And then there's the ones that rely on community dlls to fix and improve things on modern OS. From EAX audio to graphical fixes. Those files won't even work with said games on Linux. At best you end up with a wrapper within a wrapper within another wrapper. No thanks.

The compatibility just isn't there. Like not even close.
how old are you talking? 80s?
 
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how old are you talking? 80s?
Late 90s - 20010 ish.

Plenty of games still don't work well on Linux even with the wrappers. Those that do need far more work to get running correctly compared to Windows.

That's not just older games. Plenty of new ones still have issues due to poor Nvidia drivers on Linux.
 
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So Windows did some dumb H2 H3 H4 Hwhatever update and I just want to bitch because it's the dumb updates that pop up all the damn time, and you'd think sure, just update the PC and get rid of the stupid notification.

PC reboots and connect to the HDTV, and now instead of 2 displays I have 3 displays and the configurations are all wacky. Fun times spending 5 minutes figuring out why Windows added a third dummy display for no reason, when the only thing that changed was a dumb Windows update.

Happens time, and time and time again.

Meanwhile I have next to no problems on SteamOS - other than the hardware is just too weak to drive 2160p at the moment in modern games, but for playing native on the handhelds at 720p SteamOS has been a real joy.

And I get it, it's only 5 minutes, but when you just want to play for 30-45 minutes quick, and have to deal with some unexpected troubleshooting and things work differently, it ruins the whole experience.

Honestly, it's the whole update system that kills Windows for me. Windows without updates would be 1,000x better for me. I just want things to work the same, and not change.
 
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I like messing around with stable diffusion and wan 2.2
Yep, Nvidia is almost a must for AI type workloads, especially if you want to scale that up.l use it at your job.

That was the biggest reason I went with a 5080 vs 9070XT. I just wish drivers improved on Linux side for gaming.
 
Excuse me? Console gamers? Want me to go in on PC gamers and their girlfriends in discord?

Sure we console gamers are a snoody bunch of know it all children but you PC gamers are normies fucking full on mate. Half of people on discord are your friends from work who couldn't name any fucking videogame but wow.

You think we don't know about those people but we play wow too, we play everything eventually. Our eyes are everywhere.

We know how secretly uncool you all actually are.

We also know that like only one or two of you are smart in every friend group and the others are hangers on who you got into PC gaming by helping/making them build a PC. We know.

Reading this in Vegeta's voice made it so much better. The prince of all console gamers.
 
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Late 90s - 20010 ish.

Plenty of games still don't work well on Linux even with the wrappers. Those that do need far more work to get running correctly compared to Windows.

That's not just older games. Plenty of new ones still have issues due to poor Nvidia drivers on Linux.

ahh yes.. the going deal is if you want a linux steam build you should go with AMD. I have a 7900xt in my bazzite machine and I haven't ran into a problem yet.
 
ahh yes.. the going deal is if you want a linux steam build you should go with AMD. I have a 7900xt in my bazzite machine and I haven't ran into a problem yet.

For me, having spent quite a bit of time with AMD on Linux and Nvidia on Windows, the simple fact of the matter is that Nvidia on Windows is still the best experience. The fact that RT is more of a viable option and DLSS just continues to be the best upscaling solution there is, I feel like I'm gimping my gaming experience at this point with AMD. So it is like I've said plenty of times, when the Nvidia drivers for Linux are ready then I'll make the jump. Until then, I'm only using this PC for gaming and I want the best gaming experience I can have.
 
Excuse me? Console gamers? Want me to go in on PC gamers and their girlfriends in discord?

Sure we console gamers are a snoody bunch of know it all children but you PC gamers are normies fucking full on mate. Half of people on discord are your friends from work who couldn't name any fucking videogame but wow.

You think we don't know about those people but we play wow too, we play everything eventually. Our eyes are everywhere.

We know how secretly uncool you all actually are.

We also know that like only one or two of you are smart in every friend group and the others are hangers on who you got into PC gaming by helping/making them build a PC. We know.
Holy shit if this isn't a copy pasta already, it will be.
 
Honestly, it's the whole update system that kills Windows for me. Windows without updates would be 1,000x better for me. I just want things to work the same, and not change.
On linux you click "update" whenever you want:

- than you see exactly what is being updated
- than you can choose what you want to update
- than you see how its being updated
- no restart, no settings changed, nothing...you just continue whatever you just did (okay, sometimes linux remind you there is stuff which might prefer a restart...but you are not forced)

michael fassbender perfection GIF


I dont know why MS has such a total shitty update process.
 
For me, having spent quite a bit of time with AMD on Linux and Nvidia on Windows, the simple fact of the matter is that Nvidia on Windows is still the best experience. The fact that RT is more of a viable option and DLSS just continues to be the best upscaling solution there is, I feel like I'm gimping my gaming experience at this point with AMD. So it is like I've said plenty of times, when the Nvidia drivers for Linux are ready then I'll make the jump. Until then, I'm only using this PC for gaming and I want the best gaming experience I can have.

I have 2 current machines. one has a 7600x with a 7900xt running bazzite. the other is 7700x with a 5070ti running windows 11. The games I've been playing recently do not push either but I did have a horrible time with Ninja Gaiden 4 on my windows machine because it was stuck on a bad windows update and wouldn't update correctly. I had to totally to do a total clean reinstall of windows to get it to work. ( I bought it on xbox app because everyone told me it was the best place to get it )
 
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Me either, half the time i don't really understand where this complaints about everything windows comes from. I work 12 hours a day in differente computers with windows 11, i had one or two small issues if so. I game on my pc, no issues whatsoever.
Even my potato computer from work (Pentium dual core + R7 360, lol) is running Windows 11 25H2 and everything works normally. People like to hate or they fuck with their own system or it's about other non gaming things breaking.
 
I have 2 current machines. one has a 7600x with a 7900xt running bazzite. the other is 7700x with a 5070ti running windows 11. The games I've been playing recently do not push either but I did have a horrible time with Ninja Gaiden 4 on my windows machine because it was stuck on a bad windows update and wouldn't update correctly. I had to totally to do a total clean reinstall of windows to get it to work. ( I bought it on xbox app because everyone told me it was the best place to get it )
Clearly a lie, because if the guys that never had a problem on PC don't have them then it means that those problems don't exist. Simple as.
Even my potato computer from work (Pentium dual core + R7 360, lol) is running Windows 11 25H2
How? My i7-6700 doesn't bloody updates because it's not one of the chosen CPUs. I've heard that more modern versions of W11 are more performant than what I have so I'm really interested in updating.
 
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It's a jack of all trades built by accretion of blobs of code for decades. It's generally a terrible piece of software and everyone just uses it because they have to since there are decades of software that only works on it
It's actually a big part of the problem which MS don't have many ways to fix.
Nowadays majority of MS business is corporate business and in corporate world having software that 20+ years old is common. And those corps, some of them are big MS customers, ask/pressure MS to support all that legacy shit, that just increase over time. And legacy bloat keep piling up as there is a lot of "important" stuff that depends on it, making Windows a worse choice for performance dependent tasks.

Apple on other hand is mostly consumers company and can ditch legacy stuff forcing either devs to update or customers to choose something else.

Microsoft started outsourcing quality assurance to insider rings years ago. What do people expect? Basically, 50% of quality assurance has been streamlined away, and since then, the frequency of critical problems has continued to increase. It alternates between "updates that wreck your system," "updates without which your system wrecks itself," and a combination of both.
Afaik MS had 100,000 KB twenty years ago and they don't have resources to fix them all. Moreover, corps have service contracts with MS and actually can priorities bugs that are critical to them over everyone else, so usual customers are last in the line.
QA themselves will not fix it no matter rhow good are they.
 
How? My i7-6700 doesn't bloody updates because it's not one of the chosen CPUs. I've heard that more modern versions of W11 are more performant than what I have so I'm really interested in updating.
Rufus. It lets you make the ISO skipping TPM2.0 verification.
 
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I have 2 current machines. one has a 7600x with a 7900xt running bazzite. the other is 7700x with a 5070ti running windows 11. The games I've been playing recently do not push either but I did have a horrible time with Ninja Gaiden 4 on my windows machine because it was stuck on a bad windows update and wouldn't update correctly. I had to totally to do a total clean reinstall of windows to get it work. ( I bought on xbox because everyone told me it was the best place to get it )

Yeah, I was playing Rogue Trader on Linux and it was actually a better experience than on Windows. It is the games that really push the hardware that make it difficult. Clair Obscur was a night and day experience for me beween Linux and Windows. I went from 9070 XT on Linux to 5080 on Windows. DLSS was a huge factor there.

But I get your point. Windows is a pain in the ass. Primarily because Microsoft keeps half assing everything.

"It just works" "Plug and Play"

Generally I have few problems on PC, but to say there are never problems isn't true. At the same time, the problems are not as frequent or as egregious as some console gamers would have others believe either.
 
It's actually a big part of the problem which MS don't have many ways to fix.
Nowadays majority of MS business is corporate business and in corporate world having software that 20+ years old is common. And those corps, some of them are big MS customers, ask/pressure MS to support all that legacy shit, that just increase over time. And legacy bloat keep piling up as there is a lot of "important" stuff that depends on it, making Windows a worse choice for performance dependent tasks.

Apple on other hand is mostly consumers company and can ditch legacy stuff forcing either devs to update or customers to choose something else.


Afaik MS had 100,000 KB twenty years ago and they don't have resources to fix them all. Moreover, corps have service contracts with MS and actually can priorities bugs that are critical to them over everyone else, so usual customers are last in the line.
QA themselves will not fix it no matter rhow good are they.
Microsoft is a $3TRILLION company. They make like $100 Billion a year on profit. They certainly have the resources to have proper QA or update their documentation.

It is MS choice not to do that and even gut support staff for their Enterprise customers. They are a shitty company that produces products with many issues, including their Enterprise highly costly products.
 
Even my potato computer from work (Pentium dual core + R7 360, lol) is running Windows 11 25H2 and everything works normally. People like to hate or they fuck with their own system or it's about other non gaming things breaking.
Win11 has a hard requirement (no way to circumvent that with rufus or anything else) of SSE4.2. Pentium dual core's doesnt have it. Either you are mixing something up here or its black magic. ;)
 
Generally I have few problems on PC, but to say there are never problems isn't true. At the same time, the problems are not as frequent or as egregious as some console gamers would have others believe either.
Oh I'll 100% agree with what you're saying. 99% of it comes down to me simply being lazy and not wanting to deal with shit after work.
 
Microsoft is a $3TRILLION company. They make like $100 Billion a year on profit. They certainly have the resources to have proper QA or update their documentation.

It is MS choice not to do that and even gut support staff for their Enterprise customers. They are a shitty company that produces products with many issues, including their Enterprise highly costly products.
You seems to be a fan of "simple, easy to understand and wrong"

There IS a manageability limit, and there is a legacy problem. And it has nothing with QA - QA fucking testing stuff, they don't fix problems. Even the best of QA can only report issues (and btw you can report issues to MS directly), and I bet that MS now have millions of KBs those have a complex ladder of prioritization what actually fix (some issues are critical, some fixed for months and some never fixed). Dev is a fixed resource, even more so because it's split between fixing old and development new. And you can't just hire 1 mil people to fix bugs - they will be unmanageable and have zero efficiency as result.
 
Some people are in full on denial of this being an actual issue because they attach some pride into an operating system for some reason

Windows needs to do better. It's sad that Linux emulating Windows on the same hardware can often do better.
 
You seems to be a fan of "simple, easy to understand and wrong"

There IS a manageability limit, and there is a legacy problem. And it has nothing with QA - QA fucking testing stuff, they don't fix problems. Even the best of QA can only report issues (and btw you can report issues to MS directly), and I bet that MS now have millions of KBs those have a complex ladder of prioritization what actually fix (some issues are critical, some fixed for months and some never fixed). Dev is a fixed resource, even more so because it's split between fixing old and development new. And you can't just hire 1 mil people to fix bugs - they will be unmanageable and have zero efficiency as result.
Microsoft "pro-actively" fired their QA and Support teams. That's an action they decided to take.

Their documentation even for newer released tech is terrible. And they don't update older documentation appropriately.

Hell, they don't even pull deprecated features from being visible in Azure or M365 sometimes. They also love to push functionality without testing even to Enterprise customers.

Your defense of this giant terrible Corpo is certainly amusing. I have worked with MS products professionally for literally decades so I am quite familiar with what MS does or doesn't do.
 
Yeah, I was playing Rogue Trader on Linux and it was actually a better experience than on Windows. It is the games that really push the hardware that make it difficult. Clair Obscur was a night and day experience for me beween Linux and Windows. I went from 9070 XT on Linux to 5080 on Windows. DLSS was a huge factor there.

But I get your point. Windows is a pain in the ass. Primarily because Microsoft keeps half assing everything.



Generally I have few problems on PC, but to say there are never problems isn't true. At the same time, the problems are not as frequent or as egregious as some console gamers would have others believe either.
That was my point. There is a middle ground, it's not as easy as a console (that would be impossible) and it isn't the end of the world every time you turn it on, otherwise i would be out of a job if i had to spend all of my time tinkering with my pc.
 

Almost 90% of Windows Games Run on Linux, Notes Report

Linux gaming has quietly reached a new inflection point. A recent Boiling Steam summary of crowd-sourced ProtonDB compatibility reports shows that about 89.7% of Windows titles now at least launch on Linux systems. The numbers are spread into a few categories. Games rated "Platinum," meaning they install, run, and save on Linux without requiring user intervention, made up 42% of new releases tracked in October, up from 29% the previous year. That surge has outpaced parts of the certification ecosystem, with Valve's Steam Deck verification pipeline struggling to keep up; roughly one in five titles Deck reviewers call "Playable" are already Platinum on desktop distributions.

At the same time the share of titles that refuse to launch, the so-called "Borked" cohort, has fallen to roughly 3.8%, a group that still includes deliberate blocks such as March of Giants, which explicitly detects Wine and Proton and exits to the desktop. The most persistent obstacles are not obscure indies but anti-cheat middleware and contractual choices. Easy Anti-Cheat, BattlEye, and similar systems remain the primary gatekeepers for online multiplayer, and enabling them on Linux is often more a negotiation than a mere technical flip of a switch. When a studio approves Steam Deck support, desktop Linux compatibility frequently follows within a single build cycle, suggesting the code paths are already unified and only sign-off is pending.

FuFADIEQJAhKZAVp.jpg
 
You seems to be a fan of "simple, easy to understand and wrong"

There IS a manageability limit, and there is a legacy problem. And it has nothing with QA - QA fucking testing stuff, they don't fix problems. Even the best of QA can only report issues (and btw you can report issues to MS directly), and I bet that MS now have millions of KBs those have a complex ladder of prioritization what actually fix (some issues are critical, some fixed for months and some never fixed). Dev is a fixed resource, even more so because it's split between fixing old and development new. And you can't just hire 1 mil people to fix bugs - they will be unmanageable and have zero efficiency as result.

It's more a cultural problem at Microsoft. The Windows division has no incentive to improve. They're market leaders, focusing their support on business customers, and making more money from the average consumer by collecting user data.
So much so that they fired the QA team a few years ago.


A few years ago I saw some comments from employees who worked on Windows and they were categorical in saying that the problem was the company.

6xkg6We.png

 
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Damn, Johns rant really made me remember how it used to be when I almost exclusively played on PC. In a way it sounds even worse nowadays tbh.

It's pretty funny that Windows seemingly is just as prone to random issues than when I decided to go back to console gaming and buying an iMac for music production.

What really pushed me over the edge was when I experienced real bad hard crashes and bluescreens every now and then when working in the DAW. I finally tracked down the cause; it was a broken driver update deep within the depths of the Windows Update registry that just kept getting installed despite manually excluding it.
From what I gathered that driver was pretty much only used in certain graphical elements of Internet Explorer... but also by one of the graphic equilizers I used.

Shit like that haven't happened since the day I got my iMac, which still works as intended and serves its purpose despite being over 12 years old.
 
Other than the anti-cheat stuff, care to give any examples of games that you've failed to get running to a good standard on linux?
Most recent is Wuthering Waves giving me black screen with only sound in video cutscenes in Nobara. Still don't know what codec is missing (if it is really this the problem). I only installed the codecs that the OS suggested after the first boot.
 
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