[Digital Foundry] Exclusive: Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition Analysis - The First Triple-A Ray Tracing Game
- Thread starter DonJorginho
- Start date
TonyK
Member
But it's only a time saver if you only produce a RT version of your game. And for now, and for coming years, that's not possible. So, almost all games will still need the old fashion prop lighting version. Then, RT version adds time to development, not saves time. It will save time when games will be full and only RT.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
True. This can be redeemed if hdr is good
Zathalus
Member
6800XT is doing 1440p 60fps with RT High + RT reflections, with all the other settings at ultra.
The 6800XT is around 50% faster than the GPUs in either console, but then again the consoles will not be doing RT reflections, RT will be dropped back to normal, and other settings will likely not be at ultra either.
I swear it's like people are being obtuse on purpose. Yes, that's the whole point of the video, 4A are showing what can be done by switching to full ray tracing. Going FORWARD.
mancstheps5fanboy
Banned
amazing , how the application , of real world lighting effect, of light rays , makes the graphics , sooooooo much more visceral.
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"During the training process, the output image is compared to an offline rendered, ultra-high quality 16K reference image, and the difference is communicated back into the network so that it can continue to learn and improve its results. This process is repeated tens of thousands of times on the supercomputer until the network reliably outputs high quality, high resolution images."
NVIDIA DLSS 2.0: A Big Leap In AI Rendering
Through the power of AI and GeForce RTX Tensor Cores, NVIDIA DLSS 2.0 enables a new level of performance and visuals for your games - available now in MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries and coming this week to Control.
www.nvidia.com
It might not be specific to the game in question, but the training process still uses "ground truth" images as a reference point.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
Does ray tracing turn a mediocre forgettable game into a masterpiece?
Rikkori
Member
Right, I meant it's not like in DLSS 1.0 which had specific game training in that way. Obviously the network still has to be trained on something, but it's a generalised and agnostic model."During the training process, the output image is compared to an offline rendered, ultra-high quality 16K reference image, and the difference is communicated back into the network so that it can continue to learn and improve its results. This process is repeated tens of thousands of times on the supercomputer until the network reliably outputs high quality, high resolution images."
NVIDIA DLSS 2.0: A Big Leap In AI Rendering
Through the power of AI and GeForce RTX Tensor Cores, NVIDIA DLSS 2.0 enables a new level of performance and visuals for your games - available now in MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries and coming this week to Control.www.nvidia.com
It might not be specific to the game in question, but the training process still uses "ground truth" images as a reference point.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
That's because it's for VR:
They are rendering in 3D; so they have more data to use in their upscaling.. but at the expense of... rendering in 3D.
Really cool tech that doesn't apply to non-VR.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Nobody said or implied this though.. you appear to not know what "ground truth" means.
Ground truth is an image where the data scientists have labeled all of the things they are attempting to recognize in ANOTHER IMAGE.
So you take a picture of my cat, and my dog.. and you label that image with "cat" and "dog." You then use this "ground truth" image as a data point for the algorithms to identify OTHER cats and dogs... the same with AI upscaling for digital cameras.. they still utilize "ground truth" images, that are not the actual things being upscaled.. they don't have a picture of your Mom's fat ass, in order to upscale it when I take a picture of your Mom's fat ass.. they have pictures of other "Ground truth" fat asssses.
That's even true for DLSS 1.0.. because in a game where the player controls the character, and dynamic AIs are reacting to the dynamic actions of the player...your model doesn't contain every single frame possible... in fact, your model likely only contains a small fraction of something close to any of the "frames" you see, that are upscaled w/ DLSS 1.0. It's just similar imagery, of similar frames, containing the same characters/enemies/objects.
I like how you cried "misinformation" without having a clue what "ground truth" implies. Maybe chill out a bit friendo.
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Lethal01
Member
Rikkori
Member
Analogies aren't mean to be taken literal, that's what they're analogies.
I know what ground truth is, keep the projection to yourself, I have no interest. I should've explained further what I was thinking about specifically and that's my fault for not being clearer.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Oof.. the biggest tool on the forum competition has a new competitor, watch out boys, he's a real swiss army knife.
Neo_game
Member
1440P is respectful. So that would mean console would be running at 1080P.
Zathalus
Member
Devs already confirmed 4k, likely a dynamic 4k picture, but I doubt it would drop to 1080p. It's amazing how much performance is gained by dropping settings down to medium-high from ultra.
Nhranaghacon
Banned
Now the emissive lighting from the furnace looks right, casting this erry red lighting across the smoke and room.
But this is small potatoes. Most currently, here completely ignore that an ML Pipeline is in the works for both pieces of hardware as the AMD solution support ML natively, they simply haven't labored
towards implementing ML - YET.
Once games are built from the ground up to be fully RTX Efficient - watch out.
But once games are built to this standard - and AMD Finally gets the ML in gear - Expect a new visual paradigm on consoles.
And a completely new dimension on PC once games are built with the same efficiency specifically for PC, from the ground up - unfortunately - also expect PC's to take longer to get in gear with
technical showpieces built specifically
- from - the - ground - up -
to take advantage of PC hardware due to the fact that crossplatform utility between consoles and PC is now so similar.
It may take half a decade for a Mass Appeal game, built for PC specific - from the ground up - and only for PC - to come into existence.
Until then - I guess PC Gamers have Starcitizen that's now locked into and built specifically for gpu's utilizing hardware without Raytracing or Superior ML features
But this is small potatoes. Most currently, here completely ignore that an ML Pipeline is in the works for both pieces of hardware as the AMD solution support ML natively, they simply haven't labored
towards implementing ML - YET.
Once games are built from the ground up to be fully RTX Efficient - watch out.
But once games are built to this standard - and AMD Finally gets the ML in gear - Expect a new visual paradigm on consoles.
And a completely new dimension on PC once games are built with the same efficiency specifically for PC, from the ground up - unfortunately - also expect PC's to take longer to get in gear with
technical showpieces built specifically
- from - the - ground - up -
to take advantage of PC hardware due to the fact that crossplatform utility between consoles and PC is now so similar.
It may take half a decade for a Mass Appeal game, built for PC specific - from the ground up - and only for PC - to come into existence.
Until then - I guess PC Gamers have Starcitizen that's now locked into and built specifically for gpu's utilizing hardware without Raytracing or Superior ML features
Rikkori
Member
We have been contacted by Deep Silver/4A Games representative with the following statement:
videocardz.com
(Update) Metro Exodus will not support AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution (FSR) - VideoCardz.com
We have been contacted by Deep Silver/4A Games representative with the following statement: 4A Games has not evaluated the AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution feature for Metro Exodus at this time. In our FAQ, we were referring to the AMD FidelityFX open source image quality toolkit which targets...
videocardz.com
Made me laugh so hard, you better not have a picture of my mums fat ass. If you do I don't know who I'm more disappointed with, her or you.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Spoken someone who isn't
VFXVeteran
: This is the best real-time lighting on the market, hands off.
Exodus 2019 already went one step further in lighting with its single bounce real time lighting, and now they have taken it one step further with most of the umbrage carrying over to consoles. Despite being a PS4/XBO at heart, the Enhanced Edition is what you show off to people no matter what platform to highlight how next-gen can look.
Between this and the software RT from Crysis Remastered for PS4 Pro/Xbox One X and the GI tech in Nintendo Switch version from the same game, we see two of the biggest studio's push tech in interesting ways: Crytek for the last-gen hardware, and 4A for current-gen.
There are also instances where it does not look like offline rendering, but that is either a mixture of materials or specific art design. The more subtle differences are readily apparent and the ones that don't, don't stand out for a reason because its a natural occurence (Subtle light reflecting on the gun, for instance).
Multi-bounce RT is more about making things less apparent than accentuating then. You aren't surprised when you enter a room and the light conditions change. In Enhanced, the same phenonemon occurs.
There are still improvements to be made though. One of the coolest things is the realtime light changes as raytracing is performed. Seeing how subtle wall's light change is something that is geniunely new in games as it now takes into account the accurate color of what it is reflecting of. The improvements here could be faster iteration time: It now takes multiple (visible) frames to update and that transition isn't that smoothed out. Same for some noising artifacts.
And last but not least: Its last-gen assets. So who knows what the new Metro game will look like.
Both games look equally amazing:
Ratchet looks like a proper CGI movie.
Exodus Enhanced looks like Offline rendering when rendering realistic materials.
I'd say for the artstyles they are aiming for, they are quite even in total looks. As Ratchet does not aim for offline rendering equality, but rather, looking like something from Pixar, rendering conditions are also different. This is inherently apparent on the artstyle chosen. If Ratchet was aiming for life-like rendering, it wouldn't look like Ratchet. It would look like a CGI model of how a human looks, and our eyes can tell that difference due to uncanny valley.
''Too bad the game sucks.''. Its like saying to a game with superb gameplay: ''Too bad the game looks like shit.''
Its empty and hollow rhetoric at best, or someone who has not paid enough attention in troll class, at worst.
No wonder Alex was in awe back in 2019 - That kind of lighting gave a glimpse of the kind offline rendered lighting works. Because it was single bounce, that offline look only became apparent in very select instances under specific lighting conditions and views. But it was a major leap over most lighting. Just as how this Enhanced Edition makes 2019 look a generation apart.
The Switch has a game with a form of GI working on it.
At what PC equivalent however remains to be seen.
VFXVeteran
: This is the best real-time lighting on the market, hands off.Exodus 2019 already went one step further in lighting with its single bounce real time lighting, and now they have taken it one step further with most of the umbrage carrying over to consoles. Despite being a PS4/XBO at heart, the Enhanced Edition is what you show off to people no matter what platform to highlight how next-gen can look.
Between this and the software RT from Crysis Remastered for PS4 Pro/Xbox One X and the GI tech in Nintendo Switch version from the same game, we see two of the biggest studio's push tech in interesting ways: Crytek for the last-gen hardware, and 4A for current-gen.
At points it really does look like offline rendering, so it would be nice to see a comparison with the same scene recreated in V-Ray or Arnold versus realtime 4A Engine.
There are also instances where it does not look like offline rendering, but that is either a mixture of materials or specific art design. The more subtle differences are readily apparent and the ones that don't, don't stand out for a reason because its a natural occurence (Subtle light reflecting on the gun, for instance).
Multi-bounce RT is more about making things less apparent than accentuating then. You aren't surprised when you enter a room and the light conditions change. In Enhanced, the same phenonemon occurs.
There are still improvements to be made though. One of the coolest things is the realtime light changes as raytracing is performed. Seeing how subtle wall's light change is something that is geniunely new in games as it now takes into account the accurate color of what it is reflecting of. The improvements here could be faster iteration time: It now takes multiple (visible) frames to update and that transition isn't that smoothed out. Same for some noising artifacts.
And last but not least: Its last-gen assets. So who knows what the new Metro game will look like.
Having seen your posts in this thread, ill say this based on this one: You confuse artstyle with artistry. You feel Ratchet is better looking, but that's solely artstyle. It isn't gunning for realism, and neither is Guilty Gear Strive.
Both games look equally amazing:
Ratchet looks like a proper CGI movie.
Exodus Enhanced looks like Offline rendering when rendering realistic materials.
I'd say for the artstyles they are aiming for, they are quite even in total looks. As Ratchet does not aim for offline rendering equality, but rather, looking like something from Pixar, rendering conditions are also different. This is inherently apparent on the artstyle chosen. If Ratchet was aiming for life-like rendering, it wouldn't look like Ratchet. It would look like a CGI model of how a human looks, and our eyes can tell that difference due to uncanny valley.
I really can feel your frustration through your words that you felt compelled enough to write this down in a thread that is about pushing new graphical standards.
''Too bad the game sucks.''. Its like saying to a game with superb gameplay: ''Too bad the game looks like shit.''
Its empty and hollow rhetoric at best, or someone who has not paid enough attention in troll class, at worst.
So basically, its all about artstyle and your preference to that! Who knew!
That means it isnt poor, it means it used a single bounce raytrace to light the scene, accompanied by things like SSR. Even that looked a generation apart from how lighting usually was done (Software GI, approximations).
No wonder Alex was in awe back in 2019 - That kind of lighting gave a glimpse of the kind offline rendered lighting works. Because it was single bounce, that offline look only became apparent in very select instances under specific lighting conditions and views. But it was a major leap over most lighting. Just as how this Enhanced Edition makes 2019 look a generation apart.
Your way of proving Alex is wrong is by posting offscreen screengrabs of RT GI on and off and then pass it off as if you were actually serious with your argument.
Cinematic lighting is often dramatized for the scene, especially in back lighting. When an action hero waits for an explosion or makes an entrance, the back lighting is often completely over the top to accentuate that this hero is full of amaze.
How i would ache for these kinds of posts get a proper burial. I get it, you were bored.
The Switch has a game with a form of GI working on it.
Yes. The Enhanced Edition on XSX/S/PS5 gets the majority of these improvements - sans the reflections. But the multi-bounce lighting is definitely in.
At what PC equivalent however remains to be seen.
Lethal01
Member
I have no idea what would give you the impressions I'm confused about that. I literally said that for a game aiming for realism that Raytracing is key. and in the post you mentioned I said I "PREFER" more games like guilty gear rather than those realistic games, I never said that Raytracing can't also enhance stylized games either. I talk about both artstyle and artist and I talk about them separately. If anything it's the people in here that are confusing discussion about artstyle with a discussion about artistry.
I've never said anything Metro Exodus wasn't an amazing accomplishment. My first post is literally me saying that this game is the start of a revolution. All I was saying is that while Raytracing being an option is ALWAYS better, sometimes games will look nicer and more unique if you stick to the cheats we developed due to not being able to do RT until now and that RT isn't the solution to every art issue.
I never made any claims about which game is better, just that in general. I don't see why you're telling me all this.
I don't see the point you are trying to make here. Even on a movie set you sometimes choose to make things not look like reality. So no, it's not objectively true that using RT will make things better in every case which is what was stated. If you want to say it's subjective then fine, that's exactly what I was arguing.
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Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Your very first post on it where you state that RTGI does not automatically make things better. By default, its a better way of rendering. But how it is implemented depends on how it goes.I never made any claims about which game is better, just that in general. I don't see why you're telling me all this.
I am stating this in general.
Thanks for that.
Balducci30
Member
Light still behaves like light on a movie set tho? They're still using real light. I am confused
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Any word on when the current gens update dropping?
CamHostage
Member
I think you're saying this wrong? Games will look nicer and more unique if the art designers have control of the tools they're given to get the crafted look they want. RT will require different tools. When you're on a movie set (even an outdoor scene,) the DP still must take control of the light in order to get the image in their head onto the film. (And that's much harder of course since the light is actually there and the sources must be hidden; game lights can exist and project light and have no physical "bulb".)
It's not that you can't control RT light because it's 'realistic', it's that you need to think differently of light sources when they have behaviors more authentic to real light on physical surfaces. Maybe sometimes the solutions could include some of the old "tricks" (same as film still uses some vaudeville techniques even in the digital era,) but the problem is once we finally get used to seeing things with RT lighting, those tricks may start to stand out as tricks and spoil the look unless they're very carefully and organically implemented.
You're right that RT isn't the solution to every art issue (I can't really say how RT would factor into something like Guilty Gear Strive, but that's essentially a hand-animated cartoon using polygons instead of drawings... I'm not really sure how the invention of The Volume will help Disney cartoonists either,) but replacing a full-of-tricks scene with a RT scene will alter the approach. So even if you need to cheat some elements (you always cheat,) you're starting your scene construction from a better sense of reality. (Interestingly, that 'reality' will include some of the frustrations of reality like bounces you didn't want or tones that don't look good on certain characters... luckily, digital vaseline or virtual blackwrap is a lot easier to control than the real thing.)
RT doesn't necessarily mean games will look more real. It means they will have more reality embedded in the look.
How the designers manipulate that to get all the different kinds of games they can imagine, from games that look like real life to games that look wholly imagined or otherworldly, that's the art in action.
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Nhranaghacon
Banned
it doesn't actually look like offline rendering if you take into account that the assets are of extremely low detail, I mean some of the shader work harkens back to the Doom 3 Era with large smudgy bumpmap techniques in use.
And that is not indicative of an offline render, unless that render is conceptual - no artist creates a render and want's it to look bump mapped. If you extract the lighting/shadowing/reflections specifically away from the low quality low poly low detail assets - then those portions in fact look rendered through a low resolution path tracing mechanism.
Within 10 years, real time path tracing will be the way - as ML should have adequately solved real time "Off-line" path traced rendering that currently still takes minutes and hours in some cases to render a frame.
And that is not indicative of an offline render, unless that render is conceptual - no artist creates a render and want's it to look bump mapped. If you extract the lighting/shadowing/reflections specifically away from the low quality low poly low detail assets - then those portions in fact look rendered through a low resolution path tracing mechanism.
Within 10 years, real time path tracing will be the way - as ML should have adequately solved real time "Off-line" path traced rendering that currently still takes minutes and hours in some cases to render a frame.
Lethal01
Member
I did say it wrong, I left out a single word and that fucked it up.
I meant to say "games will SOMETIMES look nicer and more unique if you stick to the cheats we developed". "Cheats" being not just an invisible light to fake GI here and there but the entire old pipeline that was incredibly "wrong" but had a distinct and appealing look. The appealingness is subjective ofcourse, which is why I just say that RTGI isn't inherently "better".
You're repeating a lot of what I've been saying this whole thread so I'll just add that. some games having "reality" embedded into the look won't be a positive and using an RT pipeline would just lead to them spending a bunch of time customizing it to get the look they would have gotten more easily if they just stuck to the old pipeline.
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Lethal01
Member
They use real lights along with post-processing to give the appearance of physically implausible and unrealistic lighting. The point here simply being that the artists aren't always aiming for realism and it's about their artstyle and what they think will make the game look the best.
Krizalidx11
Banned
I hope the guys that made THE MEDUIM learns from 4A games, can't wait to finish the DLCs with the new upgrade
Balducci30
Member
I mean yeah - I come primarily from the film world I was just confused at the comparison - like most light in photo shoots and film is staged in a certain way/placed strategically - it's just the light they use does still behave like light is what I mean. Could be different in animation
Md Ray
Member
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Low Moral Fibre
Member
Just started downloading it in the UK so it's live here at least.
Quick DLSS 2.0 comparison:
Quick DLSS 2.0 comparison:
Md Ray
Member
Steam or EGS?
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
ethomaz
Banned
Yes.... and the game is raterized like usual.
Raterization + RT.
You could have corrected the first guy claim like I did.
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Low Moral Fibre
Member
Low Moral Fibre
Member
Ok seems to just let you start at whatever level you were on in the old version - maybe based on achievements or something.
Only had a really quick go as I'm technically at work but seems to be better performance than I was getting with DLSS 1.0 but obviously doesn't look like crap now.
Only had a really quick go as I'm technically at work but seems to be better performance than I was getting with DLSS 1.0 but obviously doesn't look like crap now.
Md Ray
Member
Low Moral Fibre
Member
The store page doesn't have images or anything yet but it let's you download now as a new game on Steam.
GHG
Member
Low Moral Fibre
Member
DemonCleaner
Member
Buggy Loop
Member
Not really related to Metro, but did you guys see Linus' video yesterday about "cAn YOu sEE tHR diFFRenCe with RT on AND off?"
Their picks? Tomb Raider, Minecraft and Wolfenstein Youngblood.
Then they picked an average user that would probably not tell the difference between 4K and 1080p
Linus, home of arguments in bad faith
Their picks? Tomb Raider, Minecraft and Wolfenstein Youngblood.
Then they picked an average user that would probably not tell the difference between 4K and 1080p
Linus, home of arguments in bad faith