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[PaintTinJr]

you want fanboys like Alex to go hard on PSSR because unlike hardware which is static, AI upscaling CAN be improved. But if Sony doesnt see the criticism, they wont be inclined to fix it.

Im sure their devs know the shortcomings of PSSR, but the devs are not the ones making decisions. Their bosses will just sweep their concerns under the rug unless their is direct criticism from reviewers.

I'm not sure they know much about the inner workings of PSSR at all, and wouldn't be surprised if it is still a bit of "AI-magic" as CoPilot describes when pressed on how the inference works in PSSR.

Despite CoPilot implying it got its information about PSSR from a supposed leaked Sony Portal document, it claims it can't retrieve the document or paraphrase the document for risk of copyright and can merely summaries and describes it the same as DLSS except for elaborating a little more by saying the spectral resolution is analysis of images by frequency.

Quite frankly if that's the limit of CoPilot's info on PSSR, I think 99% of devs only know how to incorporate it and roughly how its trained and can be guided for their game's noise errors, but don't actually know the inner works of the algorithm. Or is there a resource on it we can read?

 

[kevboard]

How did you come to this conclusion?

PSSR isn't free. it takes anywhere from 1 to 2 milliseconds when enabled, if we assume the cost is similar to XeSS and DLSS on PC.

in a 16ms frame that is a big chunk gone.
so in order to stay at the same internal resolution and framerate you already need additional GPU power that reclaims these 2ms, which basically means 12% of GPU resources gone in 60fps games simply by using PSSR.

 

[Gaiff]

PSSR isn't free. it takes anywhere from 1 to 2 milliseconds when enabled, if we assume the cost is similar to XeSS and DLSS on PC.

in a 16ms frame that is a big chunk gone.
so in order to stay at the same internal resolution and framerate you already need additional GPU power that reclaims these 2ms, which basically means 12% of GPU resources gone in 60fps games simply by using PSSR.

Don't know if I agree with that. Sony said 2ms to upscale from 1080p to 4K. The thing is, going from 1080p to 4K often doubles rendering time. Assuming you were doing 16.66ms at 1080p, that means you suddenly balloon up to 33.33ms for 4K. 2ms in that scenario is negligible. You have to consider how much rendering time is shaved off and DLSS Quality often offers a straight up 20-30% fps boost when going from 4K to 4K DLSS Quality.

 

[Katatonic]

PSSR isn't free. it takes anywhere from 1 to 2 milliseconds when enabled, if we assume the cost is similar to XeSS and DLSS on PC.

in a 16ms frame that is a big chunk gone.
so in order to stay at the same internal resolution and framerate you already need additional GPU power that reclaims these 2ms, which basically means 12% of GPU resources gone in 60fps games simply by using PSSR.

 

[SlimySnake]

How did you come to this conclusion?

We've been through this before.

Feel free to share whatever you're referring to, but Sony's own docs estimate 2ms cost for PSSR upscaling from 1080p to 4k. I imagine 1440p baseline will be significantly less.

As promised, ran some tests on reconstruction. used both dss and fsr2 in various different games.

1) Suicide Squad - CPU bottleneck over 80 fps so couldnt test properly. with ray tracing on, it is still a CPU bottleneck even at around 60 fps with over 20% of the GPU remaining unutilized.
2) Alan Wake 2 - 1080p gives 65 fps maxed out in a gpu limited scenario. 4k fsr2 performance. 47 fps. thats 35% hit. Dont remember the exact numbers for the 1440p native vs 4k fsr quality test, but it was much lower around 15-20% like callisto below.
3) callisto protocol - 82 fps at native 1080p. 68 fsr2 performance. 20%. native 1440p 58 fps. fsr2 quality 52 fps. 11%. Only ray traced tests because in non-RT mode i was hitting my monitors 120 fps cap at 1080p.

it seems to be variable by games. but even if we go by best case scenario, 4k fsr performance is going to be a 20% hit compared to you doing native 1080p. Its definitely not free but if a game is already using fsr2, PSSR will have the same cost.

 

[Tajaz2426]

Man, I cannot wait to get my Pro orders and smell me some boxes as I open them. Then it will become like my PC, PS5, Switch, PS Portal and the rest.

I’ll get excited and play, not notice much of a difference, play some Elden ring as that is the last game I purchased and probably call it a good six months before I get the itch to play again.

I hope we get some more details and breakdowns of how everything works so I can seem smart to my grandchildren, while not even knowing a damn thing about the tech.

 

[SlimySnake]

I'm not sure they know much about the inner workings of PSSR at all, and wouldn't be surprised if it is still a bit of "AI-magic" as CoPilot describes when pressed on how the inference works in PSSR.

Despite CoPilot implying it got its information about PSSR from a supposed leaked Sony Portal document, it claims it can't retrieve the document or paraphrase the document for risk of copyright and can merely summaries and describes it the same as DLSS except for elaborating a little more by saying the spectral resolution is analysis of images by frequency.

Quite frankly if that's the limit of CoPilot's info on PSSR, I think 99% of devs only know how to incorporate it and roughly how its trained and can be guided for their game's noise errors, but don't actually know the inner works of the algorithm. Or is there a resource on it we can read?

Nvidia is constantly updating DLSS. When i talk about devs, I mean Sony devs over at Mark Cerny's Headquarters. Not Sony first party devs.

SH2 Remake has ghosting on flying leaves in the DLSS3.5 version that is fixed in the latest 3.7 version. All I had to do was download the latest version from their website and copy paste in my SH2 folder. Bloober had nothing to do with it because Nvidia's engineering teams are always working on and the AI is always learning on more and more games. The actual game devs wont really have to do much other than include the latest PSSR drivers before shipping their games.

Remember, Sony is the one training PSSR on their AI servers, not individual devs. Individual devs just use PSSR plugins and reap the benefits.

 

[kevboard]

Don't know if I agree with that. Sony said 2ms to upscale from 1080p to 4K. The thing is, going from 1080p to 4K often doubles rendering time. Assuming you were doing 16.66ms at 1080p, that means you suddenly balloon up to 33.33ms for 4K. 2ms in that scenario is negligible. You have to consider how much rendering time is shaved off and DLSS Quality often offers a straight up 20-30% fps boost when going from 4K to 4K DLSS Quality.

if it works like DLSS, then some elements of the final frame buffer will be rendered at target resolution. this also takes additional GPU power away besides the actual upsampling

well, when literally all the others work like this, it's not just an assumption. It's an expectation

 

[ChiefDada]

We've been through this before.

PSSR isn't free. it takes anywhere from 1 to 2 milliseconds when enabled, if we assume the cost is similar to XeSS and DLSS on PC.

in a 16ms frame that is a big chunk gone.
so in order to stay at the same internal resolution and framerate you already need additional GPU power that reclaims these 2ms, which basically means 12% of GPU resources gone in 60fps games simply by using PSSR.

You two are mistaking an artificial vsync cap for frame time budget limitation on base PS5 and by extension ps5 pro:

In the case of TLOU, what once took them 16.67ms/frame should now take them 11.5ms/frame; taking 2ms PSSR budget into account, that would equate to a theoretical render budget of 13.5ms with 3ms+ to spare, which is a LOT for 60fps budget. Now someone may counter by saying "up to 45% GPU lift", but my response would be that both TLOU Remastered and TLOU Pt. 1 both run ~75fps range most of the time so I am actually being conservative with my numbers (By extension, we should be seeing TLOU games easily running 100fps+ on average in the modes DF has been testing).

 

[SlimySnake]

You two are mistaking an artificial vsync cap for frame time budget limitation on base PS5 and by extension ps5 pro:

TLOU2 has uncapped framerate modes. I played mostly in fidelity mode and was getting close to 50 fps in some areas. Same as uncharted 4.

I have no idea what that has to do with PSSR having an additional cost.

 

[Radical_3d]

By the way. I don’t know if it’s been discussed elsewhere but Sone engineers confirmed Lineman that VRR is going to be the same in the Pro. Hugely disappointing.

 

[Gaiff]

By the way. I don’t know if it’s been discussed elsewhere but Sone engineers confirmed Lineman that VRR is going to be the same in the Pro. Hugely disappointing.

Meh, it's fine. What's the VRR window for the regular PS5? 48-120? Pro shouldn't dip that low all that often.

 

[MisterXDTV]

By the way. I don’t know if it’s been discussed elsewhere but Sone engineers confirmed Lineman that VRR is going to be the same in the Pro. Hugely disappointing.

That’s the official HDMI spec, blame HDMI Forum.

I never thought for a second PS5 Pro would change VRR implementation

 

[MisterXDTV]

Meh, it's fine. What's the VRR window for the regular PS5? 48-120? Pro shouldn't dip that low all that often.

Exactly, PS5 Pro targets 60 fps:

There is no way a game doesn’t have a performance mode that stays above 47 fps

 

[Physiognomonics]

PSSR isn't free. it takes anywhere from 1 to 2 milliseconds when enabled, if we assume the cost is similar to XeSS and DLSS on PC.

in a 16ms frame that is a big chunk gone.
so in order to stay at the same internal resolution and framerate you already need additional GPU power that reclaims these 2ms, which basically means 12% of GPU resources gone in 60fps games simply by using PSSR.

You think FSR2 is free? It's not and should have similar cost.

 

[Radical_3d]

That’s the official HDMI spec, blame HDMI Forum.

I never thought for a second PS5 Pro would change VRR implementation

Then why my SX had the window at 40 fps? If MS can anybody can.

Meh, it's fine. What's the VRR window for the regular PS5? 48-120? Pro shouldn't dip that low all that often.

That’s an optimistic take if I’ve ever read one.

 

[kevboard]

You two are mistaking an artificial vsync cap for frame time budget limitation on base PS5 and by extension ps5 pro:

I'm not mistaking anything. I simply pointed out that PSSR is not just a free quality boost, and that at least 12% of GPU power will be needed to keep the same internal res and the same performance.

I say at least 12% because we don't know how Sony recommends PSSR to work. Nvidia does recommend that DLSS should be applied before most post processing steps, and that those post processing steps (bloom, motion blur, depth of field etc) should be done at full resolution.

so 12% for the PSSR upsampling + additional GPU strain due to full resolution post processing could be what is recommended.

of course just because it is recommended doesn't mean devs will all follow these recommendations. some DLSS implementations don't follow them either. but that often leads to bad results.


so, I just wanted to make sure that people understand that PSSR isn't just a switch they can flip without keeping their GPU resources in mind.

 

[kevboard]

You think FSR2 is free? It's not and should have similar cost.

yes, but not all games use FSR2. Final Fantasy 7 for example had zero upsampling on base PS5, but will use 1080p to 4K upsampling on PS5 Pro.

this means a game like this will need more GPU power to simply upsample.
if I am correct and Sony recommends full resolution post processing on top of that we are talking noticeably more than 12% GPU overhead just to enable PSSR.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

yes, but not all games use FSR2. Final Fantasy 7 for example had zero upsampling on base PS5, but will use 1080p to 4K upsampling on PS5 Pro.

this means a game like this will need more GPU power to simply upsample.
if I am correct and Sony recommends full resolution post processing on top of that we are talking noticeably more than 12% GPU overhead just to enable PSSR.

Most games use some form of reconstruction.

The question is how much does it cost and how effective is it compared to PSSR, which is being done at a hardware layer.

 

[ChiefDada]

I have no idea what that has to do with PSSR having an additional cost.

Your original quote:

the problem with the 45% boost to raw gpu power is that even if they use pssr, they dont have much else left to increase settings or resolution.

Sticking to TLOU for example. It took base PS5 13.33ms to produce one frame at 75fps avg (1000ms/75).

1. How long per frame would it take base PS5 to maintain an easier 60fps? (60/75) × 13.33ms = 10.67ms.

2. Now carry that over to PS5 Pro with its 45% faster rendering time to determine how long it would take Pro to produce base PS5 performance mode quality frame: 10.67ms/1.45 = 7.36ms

3. Now let's account for 2ms PSSR upscale cost: 7.36ms +2ms PSSR = 9.36ms.

4. Finally, let's calculate how much frame time budget we have left over for 60fps target, assuming we'd rather beef up vfx as opposed to pumping out more frames at base PS5 performance mode quality: 16.67ms - 9.36ms = 7.31ms/~44% of 60fps frame time budget.

Now tell me, Slimy - in which universe would that be considered "not much left" to increase settings or resolution?

 

[Gaiff]

I'm not mistaking anything. I simply pointed out that PSSR is not just a free quality boost, and that at least 12% of GPU power will be needed to keep the same internal res and the same performance.

I say at least 12% because we don't know how Sony recommends PSSR to work. Nvidia does recommend that DLSS should be applied before most post processing steps, and that those post processing steps (bloom, motion blur, depth of field etc) should be done at full resolution.

so 12% for the PSSR upsampling + additional GPU strain due to full resolution post processing could be what is recommended.

of course just because it is recommended doesn't mean devs will all follow these recommendations. some DLSS implementations don't follow them either. but that often leads to bad results.

We're arguing semantics. The net result is that upscaling lowers rendering time. It's a small investment for a huge return. Also, I believe your math is flawed because it's a fixed cost. It doesn't scale like percentage does.

so, I just wanted to make sure that people understand that PSSR isn't just a switch they can flip without keeping their GPU resources in mind.

Who said that? The point is that PSSR is a switch that can be flipped to get better performance. What are we discussing here? Who cares about the 2ms it takes to process if we get back 10ms?

Seriously, whoever gave a shit about the cost of DLSS? We all see it as free performance. Technically it isn't free because you invest $1 to get $10 back, but the net result is that you end up with more money than you started with, which is all that matters.

 

[SlimySnake]

Now tell me, Slimy - in which universe would that be considered "not much left" to increase settings or resolution?

In the reality where Ratchet, HFW, and spiderman 2 are using performance modes to reconstruct instead of fidelity modes. and GT7 is dropping to 1200p then getting reconstructed to native 4k just to get ray tracing in.

you keep using the 2ms figure even though ive given you actual examples showing the difference can be much larger. but you believe what you want to believe.

 

[Gaiff]

In the reality where Ratchet, HFW, and spiderman 2 are using performance modes to reconstruct instead of fidelity modes. and GT7 is dropping to 1200p then getting reconstructed to native 4k just to get ray tracing in.

you keep using the 2ms figure even though ive given you actual examples showing the difference can be much larger. but you believe what you want to believe.

Those are work in progress. It's not impossible (I'd say even likely) that we see the fidelity/quality mode at 1440p upscaled to 4K using PSSR. Cerny said the reason for the Pro's existence was to eliminate the choice between graphics and performance, or at least, narrow that divide. Do you seriously think we'll just get Performance Mode upscaled to 4K using PSSR while all the nice graphics upgrades are stuck in Quality Mode? That'd make the Pro a machine that solely boosts resolution, which is clearly not what it's for.

 

[Radical_3d]

That'd make the Pro a machine that solely boosts resolution, which is clearly not what it's for.

It’s literally what’s for. Already a lot of silicon budget to make that work. Maybe some magicians with tech like Guerrilla can squish some more but 99,99% of developers are going to make “4K” versions of the performance mode. Don’t like it? Don’t buy. It’s not the best deal in gaming. But expecting more from the machine is a recipe for disappointment.

 

[Gaiff]

It’s literally what’s for. Already a lot of silicon budget to make that work. Maybe some magicians with tech like Guerrilla can squish some more but 99,99% of developers are going to make “4K” versions of the performance mode. Don’t like it? Don’t buy. It’s not the best deal in gaming. But expecting more from the machine is a recipe for disappointment.

But it isn't. Cerny said plainly that it's to eliminate or narrow the divide between graphics and performance and when talking about graphics, he spoke specifically about better graphics quality, not just resolution. The objective is to bring together the quality and resolution of fidelity mode with the performance of...performance mode.

Do you think the goal is just to take performance mode from 1080p/1440p to 4K using PSSR?

 

[Radical_3d]

But it isn't. Cerny said plainly that it's to eliminate or narrow the divide between graphics and performance and when talking about graphics, he spoke specifically about better graphics quality, not just resolution. The objective is to bring together the quality and resolution of fidelity mode with the performance of...performance mode.

And he literally said that while showing Ratchet performance upscaled to “4K”. And that narrows the gap between modes for most of us. I’m not specially concerned about the amount of crowd rendering in the background but of course it’d be lovely if the PSPro could do both. The thing is: it isn’t doing it. That’s all the proof we have.

Do you think the goal is just to take performance mode from 1080p/1440p to 4K using PSSR?

Most of the time that’s enough. Except for rare cases like SH2R where a lot of light is lost on the performance mode, in the majority of cases the differences aside from resolution are minimal or non existent. Maybe a game that is build with a few months to support the Pro is better than this patches after the launch. But better keep your expectations in check. I just want HD2 and 40K with PSSR. Everything else is an extra.

Edit: I just went to the dragon age thread out of morbid curiosity and seems that yes: with a little bit of more time and with the game still unfinished you can get better results. They’ve implemented RTAO from the quality mode into the performance mode. So you’re right, but maybe don’t take this as the norm. I have zero interest in dragon age, tho.

 

[Gaiff]

Most of the time that’s enough. Except for rare cases like SH2R where a lot of light is lost on the performance mode, in the majority of cases the differences aside from resolution are minimal or non existent. Maybe a game that is build with a few months to support the Pro is better than this patches after the launch. But better keep your expectations in check. I just want HD2 and 40K with PSSR. Everything else is an extra.

That's simply not true. Take God of War Ragnarok for example. The shadow quality takes a huge hit, you lose the hybrid RT reflections, the LOD is pared back, and there are other lower settings such as with the fur and contact-hardened shadows. Look at the awful pixelated shadows on the far left. This is Performance Mode. Far right is Quality Mode.

In Silent Hill 2, the lighting gets destroyed in the Performance Mode.

Rift Apart Performance RT Mode also looks worse than Quality Mode even outside of the resolution. There's a plethora of games that get significantly reduced graphics quality when going from Performance to Fidelity.

 

[Radical_3d]

Far right is Quality Mode.

Ahhh… another AfD enjoyer, I see.

In Silent Hill 2, the lighting gets destroyed in the Performance Mode.

I did mentioned SH2R.

Rift Apart Performance RT Mode also looks worse than Quality Mode even outside of the resolution. There's a plethora of games that get significantly reduced graphics quality when going from Performance to Fidelity.

Yeah, and I’ve gave you the reason in the edit. But if Ratchet loses a lot in the performance RT and is not regained in the “pro” mode take every win like Dragon Age with a grain of salt: there are bottlenecks everywhere in the Pro.

 

[hussar16]

no automatic upscale to all games no buy

 

[Gaiff]

Yeah, and I’ve gave you the reason in the edit. But if Ratchet loses a lot in the performance RT and is not regained in the “pro” mode take every win like Dragon Age with a grain of salt: there are bottlenecks everywhere in the Pro.

We'll see. Not entirely convinced Rift Apart's Pro mode is just RT Performance Mode at a higher resolution. I'm almost certain they'll add more in time for the launch.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

We'll see. Not entirely convinced Rift Apart's Pro mode is just RT Performance Mode at a higher resolution. I'm almost certain they'll add more in time for the launch.

Cerny's Pro presentation has blatant contradictions now that we've seen the Sony games and they've chosen to update. He talked about noy having to sacrifice Fidelity and performance yes, but he also talked about 75% of gamers choosing Performance mode...he then went on to say the Pro lets us get more "detail" than before- my fear is this extra "detail" could simply be coming from the greater resolve you get from PSSR.

For Sony this extra resolve in performance mode could be that "marriage of Fidelity and Perf" Cerny refers to. These games we get bear that out. Sony seems to think that's good enough for us and that people won't care about losing out on lods, shadow quality, etc because we'll have better image quality at 60 fps compared to what 75% of players are used to...you have to learn to think the way a company like Sony thinks to understand this ...sadly for us who expected an actual true "no sacrifices" situation ...of which the Pro should be capable of! That's what's so crazy about this ...we finally get hardware upgrade needed to do it and Sony chooses the lazy route. Console gaming is fucked

What ive been trying to tell you guys is stop giving Sony and their studios the benefit of the doubt. They often do the bare minimum and that seems to be the case with this batch of patches. Just because logically it makes no sense to us that a $780 mid gen console will not fuse fedelity with framerate, that doesn't mean Sony is planning to actually do that now or in the future. They're not "holding in their back pocket" the "true fidelity Pro mode" to be revealed at a later date.

Btw them using Perf modes instead of Fidelity is a big deal as in most cases there are big sacrifices to games, esp for people with a discerning eye for graphics. Ratchet, Spiderman and Horizon all have LOTS of little cutbacks to settings that add up.

There's no reason they shouldn't be dropping the native resolution of Fidelity mode, then applying PSSR but that's not what we're getting and this will set the tone for other devs thinking of patching for Pro. Of course some games will be an exception and we'll get better results but Sony should know better- it's their $800 console.

 

[Crispy Gamer]

I guess I'm a bit confused with the conversation because Dragon Age, Star Wars and a few other games have already shown the Pro can do fidelity mode settings at 60fps even adding RT effects. Why just focus on the games that aren't doing the most as if the Pro is somehow less capable? Devs will do whatever they want and it looks as if 3rd party is taking advantage of the Pro more than PS Studios at launch.

 

[SKYF@ll]

it's their $800 console.

Could you please not force me to buy UHD-BD drive?

 

[ChiefDada]

I guess I'm a bit confused with the conversation because Dragon Age, Star Wars and a few other games have already shown the Pro can do fidelity mode settings at 60fps even adding RT effects. Why just focus on the games that aren't doing the most as if the Pro is somehow less capable? Devs will do whatever they want and it looks as if 3rd party is taking advantage of the Pro more than PS Studios at launch.

It's just the usual suspects doing what they usually do. One of them proclaimed PS5 Pro would perform like a "3070 at best". They're a special breed of adorable and it's fun to engage with them every once in a while just for the lols.

 

[Crispy Gamer]

So Digital Foundry actually went to Codemasters that should be interesting they had the best Pro upgrades. I might just sign up for the rest of the year for early access to the Pro coverage

 

[ChiefDada]

So Digital Foundry actually went to Codemasters that should be interesting they had the best Pro upgrades. I might just sign up for the rest of the year for early access to the Pro coverage

Well worth it for $5/month imo.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

So Digital Foundry actually went to Codemasters that should be interesting they had the best Pro upgrades. I might just sign up for the rest of the year for early access to the Pro coverage

They had the best pro upgrades? Why because DF said that? I'll reserve judgement.

 

[PandaOk]

So Digital Foundry actually went to Codemasters that should be interesting they had the best Pro upgrades. I might just sign up for the rest of the year for early access to the Pro coverage

This was the preview build

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I guess I'm a bit confused with the conversation because Dragon Age, Star Wars and a few other games have already shown the Pro can do fidelity mode settings at 60fps even adding RT effects. Why just focus on the games that aren't doing the most as if the Pro is somehow less capable? Devs will do whatever they want and it looks as if 3rd party is taking advantage of the Pro more than PS Studios at launch.

Same reason why Sony isn't shitting all over FSR. AMD is a partner of theirs and you don't shit on your business partners.

Sony focused largely on their own games and older games at that, so as to not shit on newer games in an official marketing campaign. You can market these games and their Pro enhancements on an individual basis without making the base versions seem like shit. It's one thing for the company to compare and highlight the differences, it's another for Sony to do it.

Not to mention Sony still needs to sell base PS5s.

 

[ChiefDada]

Sony focused largely on their own games and older games at that, so as to not shit on newer games in an official marketing campaign. You can market these games and their Pro enhancements on an individual basis without making the base versions seem like shit. It's one thing for the company to compare and highlight the differences, it's another for Sony to do it.

 

[Bojji]

That’s the official HDMI spec, blame HDMI Forum.

I never thought for a second PS5 Pro would change VRR implementation

Why not blame Sony for not implementing free sync (like Xbox) to allow that 40hz-120hz window and not giving us system setting for 120hz? we are on a mercy of incompetent developers.

 

[SlimySnake]

Those are work in progress. It's not impossible (I'd say even likely) that we see the fidelity/quality mode at 1440p upscaled to 4K using PSSR. Cerny said the reason for the Pro's existence was to eliminate the choice between graphics and performance, or at least, narrow that divide. Do you seriously think we'll just get Performance Mode upscaled to 4K using PSSR while all the nice graphics upgrades are stuck in Quality Mode? That'd make the Pro a machine that solely boosts resolution, which is clearly not what it's for.

I’m just going by the results of the first party titles. I expected most games to use fidelity modes use 4k pssr quality like tlou2 does but that’s not happening.

I did say that we should wait and see games like avatar, silent hill 2 and Star Wars outlaws get patched because they feature rt which got a bigger performance boost and they already had fsr costs built into their quality mode so pssr will just replace fsr at no cost. but you will still need 100% more performance from this gpu that can only offer you 45%. Let’s see if the rt ipc gains can make up the difference.

I was just trying to talk feelslikeI’m42 off the ledge and get him to wait and see some third party rt titles. I’m perfectly willing to see how actual next Gen games full of rt features perform.

 

[Kaiserstark]

It’s literally what’s for. Already a lot of silicon budget to make that work. Maybe some magicians with tech like Guerrilla can squish some more but 99,99% of developers are going to make “4K” versions of the performance mode. Don’t like it? Don’t buy. It’s not the best deal in gaming. But expecting more from the machine is a recipe for disappointment.

We'll see. Not entirely convinced Rift Apart's Pro mode is just RT Performance Mode at a higher resolution. I'm almost certain they'll add more in time for the launch.

Guerrilla told DF, if the Pro had come out closer to the HFW release, they would have made more stuff such as using additional power from the GPU or Raytracing.

HFW will soon be out for 3 years for Ratchet even more. The studios have moved on after so long which makes sense and are probably very busy with their current projects so it's not surprising that on games this old they are just doing the mimimun.

Unfortunately I think that for PlayStation studios, we will have to wait for Yōtei and DS2 to see them really exploit the Pro.

Horizon Remaster could have been a good candidate but it would obviously have required more work since it just seems like an upgrade to be similar to HFW and Nixxes probably couldn't have handled it and it should have be Guerrilla but we could also say, it's good that they don't waste their time on a Remaster.

On the other hand we have a much more recent game like F1 24 which adds RTAO, RT Transparency and RT opaque reflections at 4K 60 on Pro.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

I guess I'm a bit confused with the conversation because Dragon Age, Star Wars and a few other games have already shown the Pro can do fidelity mode settings at 60fps even adding RT effects. Why just focus on the games that aren't doing the most as if the Pro is somehow less capable? Devs will do whatever they want and it looks as if 3rd party is taking advantage of the Pro more than PS Studios at launch.

I have a Pro pre-ordered from Gamestop. I've been excited and waiting for this machine for two years in hopes of finally not having to choose 30 with great visuals or 60 with lower settings and poor iq. It's not just the "usual suspects" who are disappointed with Sony using performance mode settings on their games. I also ONLY mentioned SONY and not 3rd party devs in my posts because it's Sony who has the best looking and often my favorite games, so of course I'd be most disappointed knowing ill be playing their games at worse settings than i'm already accustomed to when I play at 40fps in Fidelity mode ...

It's also Sony's new console. If Sony isn't going to properly take advantage of what their $780 console can do then wtf, right? Of course it's going to also set a bad precedent for 3rd parties. There is an obvious contradiction between Cerny's pitch and what we're seeing bare out so far in SONY games. Yes, gt7 uses RT on top of their performance mode which is great amd a good use of the hardware but goddamn it theres no excuse for their other games to not be utilizing Fidelity mode ...

The logic of some people here is that "i can't imagine Sony will only update Perf mode, therefore they 'must' also have a Fidelity Pro mode lined up". If you've paid attention to how Sony operates this gen you'd understand that they're willing to act below expectations; below what the hardware is capable of. We've seen it with all the remasters and directors cuts they released on PS5 havn't we?

You can think positively if you want and listen to absolute CLOWNS like Chief dada, one of the biggest fanboys ive seen on Gaf, the same guy who loves to gaslight when people try to point out that the games he thinks are such visual tour d' forces, like Last of Us Part 1 Remake and Spiderman 2, fell far short in reality compared to what Sony should've been able to deliver. He refused to recognize the downgrade that Insomniac pulled with Spiderman 2 for months. Always giving Sony games the benefit of the doubt that one ..always turning out to be wrong.

I'm simply seeing the contradiction here with Sony and the Pro and I am not happy about what I'm seeing so Im trying to bring this to light, simply because I want them to do better. Been waiting wayyy too long for the Pro to settle for Performance mode + pssr - that's some grade A bullshit coming from the company who had Cerny deliver the lines about "with Ps5 Pro we want to give players a way to not have to compromise between Fidelity and Performance" and then they turn around and COMPROMISE on Fidelity and Performance! Lol come on man im not making sense to you??

Slimy- You don't have to talk me off the ledge I'm too used to being letdown this gen. I'm very bothered by it tho obviously not gonna lie. I do appreciate the discussion and acknowledgement from someone that it's a bummer to get meager upgrades from Sony titles. I agree we'll see great examples of the Pro in games like SW Outlaws and especially something like AC Shadows (sucks it's no longer releasing when the Pro releases) but the biggest reason I was excited about this console is to see significant improvement from existing games! I have a massive library of digital games on PS5. Don't you agree that it's Sony who should be at the forefront of Pro updates? Try to see it from a console owner perspective of someone whose library is filled with many great games that are stuck at low resolutions or 30 fps.... The Pro is $780 wouldn't you hope that Sony has all their ps5 exclusives and then some (like some of the ps4 games that are still 1080p/30)for that kind of money?
Btw im almost positive Oliver said LoU2 was using Perf mode ...

PS- many exvlusives and timed exclusives are not getting Pro updates either, probably some because they're being blocked by MS, but consider this list of missing games: Ps5 exclusives and first party- Astrobot, Destiny 2, Spiderman remastered + Miles morales, days gone, death stranding, Uncharted 4 remaster, Kena, Sackboy, Nioh 2, Returnal, Detroit become human, Forspoken, FF16, Black Myth Wukong and Silent Hill 2 (last 3 games are huge omissions)....

Timed exclusives like ghostwire tokyo, deathloop (MS owned games)

Multiplats- Wu Long Fallen Dynasty, Banishers, SF6, MK1, Cyberpunk 2077 (big omission), Control, Dying Light 2, Space Marine 2, Metaphor (wtf it just came out) and a whopper of an omission Black Ops 6, Armored Core, ELDEN RING, AC Mirage, Baulders Gate 3, Hitman 3, Battlefield 2042, Tekken 8, NFS Unbound, Immortals , Like a Dragon Gaiden + Infinite Wealth, Plague Tale Requiem, AC Valhalla, Lords of the Fallen, Dead Space, Avatar and Far Cry 6....they have not done a good job securing enhancements- the things that would truly make this console truly worth the price..

If you didn't have a PC you might care more about these games not showing up but you already have the option to play great versions of all of them. Remember guys, the fanboy types will ALWAYS justify and move goalposts because it's more important for them to feel good about something they're looking forward to, even if that product should be so much better.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Why not blame Sony for not implementing free sync (like Xbox) to allow that 40hz-120hz window and not giving us system setting for 120hz? we are on a mercy of incompetent developers.

Because the HDMI spec is far more important to actually let mfr's create TV's that display a image with good frame to frame contrast, colour reproduction and clarity in VRR mode. People pushing for Sony to step outside of specs because 3rd place did it know nothing of developing Pro AV to consumer AV products like Sony does. You are asking the sighted to follow the blind.

 

[MisterXDTV]

It's just the usual suspects doing what they usually do. One of them proclaimed PS5 Pro would perform like a "3070 at best". They're a special breed of adorable and it's fun to engage with them every once in a while just for the lols.

Yeah, the last few pages are hilarious

PS5 Pro is meant to improve IQ...

If you just take the base performance mode and add PSSR, you are just AI upscaling with better anti-aliasing but you are not really improving IQ that much if the graphics settings stay the same.

Resolution is the least important factor now, as we reached diminishing returns with 1440p to 2160p

The point of PS5 Pro is to give users at least 90% the quality of the 30 fps quality mode BUT this time at double the frame-rate....

Internal resolution is the least important factor

 

[Bojji]

Because the HDMI spec is far more important to actually let mfr's create TV's that display a image with good frame to frame contrast, colour reproduction and clarity in VRR mode. People pushing for Sony to step outside of specs because 3rd place did it know nothing of developing Pro AV to consumer AV products like Sony does. You are asking the sighted to follow the blind.

WTF are you talking about? Free sync is a better standard than VRR, it supports wider range of refresh rates (40 minimum compared to 48) and has LFC as standard. on PS5 you have retarded devs that developed game with 120hz refresh rate, unlocked frame rate but with no LFC... I'm talking about Metaphor, free sync should fix that automatically.

 

[Crispy Gamer]

I have a Pro pre-ordered from Gamestop. I've been excited and waiting for this machine for two years in hopes of finally not having to choose 30 with great visuals or 60 with lower settings and poor iq. It's not just the "usual suspects" who are disappointed with Sony using performance mode settings on their games. I also ONLY mentioned SONY and not 3rd party devs in my posts because it's Sony who has the best looking and often my favorite games, so of course I'd be most disappointed knowing ill be playing their games at worse settings than i'm already accustomed to when I play at 40fps in Fidelity mode ...

It's also Sony's new console. If Sony isn't going to properly take advantage of what their $780 console can do then wtf, right? Of course it's going to also set a bad precedent for 3rd parties. There is an obvious contradiction between Cerny's pitch and what we're seeing bare out so far in SONY games. Yes, gt7 uses RT on top of their performance mode which is great amd a good use of the hardware but goddamn it theres no excuse for their other games to not be utilizing Fidelity mode ...

The logic of some people here is that "i can't imagine Sony will only update Perf mode, therefore they 'must' also have a Fidelity Pro mode lined up". If you've paid attention to how Sony operates this gen you'd understand that they're willing to act below expectations; below what the hardware is capable of. We've seen it with all the remasters and directors cuts they released on PS5 havn't we?

You can think positively if you want and listen to absolute CLOWNS like Chief dada, one of the biggest fanboys ive seen on Gaf, the same guy who loves to gaslight when people try to point out that the games he thinks are such visual tour d' forces, like Last of Us Part 1 Remake and Spiderman 2, fell far short in reality compared to what Sony should've been able to deliver. He refused to recognize the downgrade that Insomniac pulled with Spiderman 2 for months. Always giving Sony games the benefit of the doubt that one ..always turning out to be wrong.

I'm simply seeing the contradiction here with Sony and the Pro and I am not happy about what I'm seeing so Im trying to bring this to light, simply because I want them to do better. Been waiting wayyy too long for the Pro to settle for Performance mode + pssr - that's some grade A bullshit coming from the company who had Cerny deliver the lines about "with Ps5 Pro we want to give players a way to not have to compromise between Fidelity and Performance" and then they turn around and COMPROMISE on Fidelity and Performance! Lol come on man im not making sense to you??

Slimy- You don't have to talk me off the ledge I'm too used to being letdown this gen. I'm very bothered by it tho obviously not gonna lie. I do appreciate the discussion and acknowledgement from someone that it's a bummer to get meager upgrades from Sony titles. I agree we'll see great examples of the Pro in games like SW Outlaws and especially something like AC Shadows (sucks it's no longer releasing when the Pro releases) but the biggest reason I was excited about this console is to see significant improvement from existing games! I have a massive library of digital games on PS5. Don't you agree that it's Sony who should be at the forefront of Pro updates? Try to see it from a console owner perspective of someone whose library is filled with many great games that are stuck at low resolutions or 30 fps.... The Pro is $780 wouldn't you hope that Sony has all their ps5 exclusives and then some (like some of the ps4 games that are still 1080p/30)for that kind of money?
Btw im almost positive Oliver said LoU2 was using Perf mode ...

PS- many exvlusives and timed exclusives are not getting Pro updates either, probably some because they're being blocked by MS, but consider this list of missing games: Ps5 exclusives and first party- Astrobot, Destiny 2, Spiderman remastered + Miles morales, days gone, death stranding, Uncharted 4 remaster, Kena, Sackboy, Nioh 2, Returnal, Detroit become human, Forspoken, FF16, Black Myth Wukong and Silent Hill 2 (last 3 games are huge omissions)....

Timed exclusives like ghostwire tokyo, deathloop (MS owned games)

Multiplats- Wu Long Fallen Dynasty, Banishers, SF6, MK1, Cyberpunk 2077 (big omission), Control, Dying Light 2, Space Marine 2, Metaphor (wtf it just came out) and a whopper of an omission Black Ops 6, Armored Core, ELDEN RING, AC Mirage, Baulders Gate 3, Hitman 3, Battlefield 2042, Tekken 8, NFS Unbound, Immortals , Like a Dragon Gaiden + Infinite Wealth, Plague Tale Requiem, AC Valhalla, Lords of the Fallen, Dead Space, Avatar and Far Cry 6....they have not done a good job securing enhancements- the things that would truly make this console truly worth the price..

If you didn't have a PC you might care more about these games not showing up but you already have the option to play great versions of all of them. Remember guys, the fanboy types will ALWAYS justify and move goalposts because it's more important for them to feel good about something they're looking forward to, even if that product should be so much better.

I don't disagree that Sony first party should be doing more hopefully it's mandated that they have to bring some type of Pro support at launch. I was just pushing back at the idea that the system isn't as capable just because it appears first party phoned it in when we have examples of 3rd party going above most people's expectations of what the system can do. We've all been in the mid-gen threads for over a year I remember all of the arguments about the cpu once it was leaked and how framerates aren't going to improve blah blah blah it wasn't just DF skeptical. The reason I'm positive is because I'm already impressed with what the Pro can do that doesn't mean I'm satisfied with what first party is bringing to the table that's a completely separate conversation.

 

[Zathalus]

WTF are you talking about? Free sync is a better standard than VRR, it supports wider range of refresh rates (40 minimum compared to 48) and has LFC as standard. on PS5 you have retarded devs that developed game with 120hz refresh rate, unlocked frame rate but with no LFC... I'm talking about Metaphor, free sync should fix that automatically.

It’s actually a common misconception but the HDMI spec does not enforce 48 as the minimum. 40 minimum is perfectly allowed and will adhere to the specification for HDMI VRR. 40 vs 48 is up to the device or panel.

Sony is being odd about this, some of their older TVs were limited to 48 minimum for VRR but this was a limitation of the MediaTek chip. The latest Bravia sets support the full VRR range, 40-120 and supports LFC. It’s even Gsync compatible. Curious why the PS5 hasn’t been updated. It took Sony several years to implement VRR, so maybe down the road.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

and GT7 is dropping to 1200p then getting reconstructed to native 4k just to get ray tracing in.

1200p in replays, 1440p during gameplay to be precise