FranXico
Member
Microsoft spokesperson markets their product: Amen!
Sony spokesperson markets their product: LIARS! SNEAKY!
[Digital Foundry]PS5 uncovered
- Thread starter Spreewaldgurke
- Start date
Sony spokesperson markets their product: LIARS! SNEAKY!
LazyParrot
Member
Has there been confirmation that they won't support it? Or are people just assuming they won't because Cerny hasn't mentioned it?
If the architecture is capable of doing it, then all they'd have to do is support it in their APIs like Microsoft did with DirectX 12. If Sony really won't support it, then that would either mean that their programmers are too dumb to do it, or they're refusing to do it just for the hell of it. Neither of those seem particularly likely to me.
Agnostic2020
Member
This way your fan is always quite and once a busy heavy scene is passed and code doesn't need much gpu it drops the gpu clock so the gam doesn't increase. So it adjusts the cloxk based on the game need to keep the temp always cool.and fan always quiet and at same level .
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
I mean it's not like MS has never had a piece of hardware that didn't have major issues (360 RRoD). I suspect the XSX will be fine, but MS has had a long history of hype and non-delivery. So they don't get full benefit of the doubt.
And likewise, I am not going to immediately assume that Sony is incompetent.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I'm excited for the PS5, but this sounds like a horrible design decision. They essentially put a Zen 2 processor in there, but where the risk of designing a game to properly leverage the very best of what that CPU can do will leave very little power for the GPU to perform at the stated boost clock speed.
It just plains seems like a better setup to be able to run the CPU as hard as you want for your game without ever needing to worry that the GPU may suffer for it, the way it works on the Xbox Series X. And Cerny and Sony still can't seem to acknowledge where the baseline is on either the CPU or GPU. There is almost certainly a baseline.
It just plains seems like a better setup to be able to run the CPU as hard as you want for your game without ever needing to worry that the GPU may suffer for it, the way it works on the Xbox Series X. And Cerny and Sony still can't seem to acknowledge where the baseline is on either the CPU or GPU. There is almost certainly a baseline.
Agnostic2020
Member
Dude oberon from github at 9.2 tf was B0 stepping .ps5 now is at E0 . It has changed. Get over it .ps5 is 10.3 tf and variable clock is for when the game code doesn't need it so the fan stays quiet and system stays cool .
Again cerny said :
"There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower."
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Probably because MS was more open about SeX then Sony with PS5.
Just look at the info DF (and the public) got with SeX. Home page and twitter, videos, DF, form factor (outside and inside), the controller, a glossary online.
PS5 is basically Cerny's stage show which focused on SSD and audio.
If Sony PRed clear info on it's site like MS has, people can figure out stuff on their own.
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Agnostic2020
Member
It does have vrs. It was not mentioned here .vrs is amd rdna2 feature.dxr api is for ms
joe_zazen
Member
ffs,
architecture def: "the complex or carefully designed structure of something." It doesnt mean power.
supercharged definition: "to make an engine more powerful by forcing in more air and fuel than usual" this also does not reference absolute power
The ps4 was a carefully designed 1.8TF jaguar based console runs games better than any equivalent PC can, hence supercharged architecture.
You may not like it, or understand it, but it is no lie.
splattered
Member
Ahh my bad guys just got home and watched the beginning again, Richard said he suspects we will see a prolonged cross gen period with games based around Jaguar, Mark didnt say it.
longdi
Banned
Knowing the tech whore Richard is, he probably asked Cerny directly.
But looking at the video, you can tell Cerny basically evaded another question. Hence you see Richard put a question mark about PS5 'custom' rdna2 GPU.
This is life, when someone is heeing and hawing, evasive answers, you can tell something wrong.
dottme
Member
One point that I think is interesting is that current game engine are optimized for really low CPU performances and really low HDD performances.
I feel like the beginning of the generation will probably use those engines and just slightly boost some parameters. I have really low hopes that the beginning of the generation will be interesting as the game engines will need to be rework quite a lot to finally show the full power of the PS5 and the XSX.
But, we are in a state that we really need to see games. I'm not sure why both Sony and Microsoft hold on so much to show anything.
I feel like the beginning of the generation will probably use those engines and just slightly boost some parameters. I have really low hopes that the beginning of the generation will be interesting as the game engines will need to be rework quite a lot to finally show the full power of the PS5 and the XSX.
But, we are in a state that we really need to see games. I'm not sure why both Sony and Microsoft hold on so much to show anything.
Ascend
Member
What you quoted does in no way change what was said about developers throttling back the CPU to ensure they always reach 2.23 GHz. Why? Because when the developers use the profiles, they will automatically be programming to load the CPU less and the GPU more. This means that the CPU might get a slight bump in performance compared to the profile when running the retail games on the retail console, but since developers were already maxing out the GPU, the GPU performance will stay the same. The additional performance from the slight CPU bump will not make much of a difference in practice. The main difference is that one is manually done by the developers to get the results they want, and the other is that the system does it automatically with SmartShift, with a slight boost to only CPU performance in this case, IF there is any leeway.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Disagree.
That's like Toyota saying their Camry with all options is like a Super Charged Lexus because they share some of the same parts.
It's still a Camry no matter how much you adjust it. If you want a Lexus, get a Lexus.
FALCON_KICK
Member
It seems Sony wants to leverage a variant of mobile/laptop tech designed by AMD as those similar limitations are introduced while designing Consoles, i.e., cost and relatively lower permitted TDP than PCs.
Sony could have opted to go with traditional design philosophy of PS4 with locked frequency which would make the fans run like "jet engine" whenever additional power was drawn from mains. So I agree with you as it seems like a gamble on Sony's part though.
I am certain the variable frequency of PS5 that is defining the PS5 forums talks everywhere is only because of the implementation of AMD's new SmartShift tech. Variable frequency is not a feature of PS4/Xbox1 and even the upcoming Xbox series X.
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Dory16
Banned
Care to share an example of PS4 Pro performing better than the One X at comparable resolution? In the words of Alex Battaglia from DF, that would seriously put the developer's ability (or tools) in question.
longdi
Banned
Im sure PS4 and even PS3 have variable clocks.
Variable clocks are for power savings or limitations requiring power savings.
There is all that is to it. Nothing special.
The problem is Sony hasnt been direct with PS5 presentation. Just say we built a cheaper console ala Gamecube. Reachable for the masses and still have good efficient graphics. Power is not a concern.
Done.
But It seems their PR team still want to sell the idea PS5 is only 10% or so behind Series X, still has great powers! Let them dreams in forums and defend Team Blue!
SoloKingRobert
Banned
If PS5 does have VRS, why didn't Sony mention it at GDC digital event? Meybe, it's because Microsoft helped AMD to develop VRS.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
What they should have to appease the masses is use that one hour show (should be longer if needed), and go over each key spec of the system concisely.
And before anyone says it's a GDC show, it's supposed to be detailed and boring, then Sony shouldn't have promoted to everyone to watch the show.
Then back up those specs with some demos. It's already March at the time, there's got to be some slick PS5 first party demos up and running that can show a weaker system using SSD will lead to awesome games.
They even did an SSD demo a year ago with Spiderman. They could have expanded on that showing what a wicked open world game could look like with huge landscapes, zero loading times, and it works seemlessly.
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joe_zazen
Member
Not at all. It is like saying a supercharged camry will have more power and acceleration than one that isnt. Here are some suoercharged shitbangers:
They should rename Gaf to Daft, because some of you certainly are. It seems practice is better than theory, because Cerny speaks a lot of theory, while developers put a lot into practice. And based on what developers are saying, and what DF have determined so far, is that the variable speed exists for a reason. It's not there, just because Cerny wants it there. There's a reason why there is a window of operation, min to max freqs (and Cerny has never, up to this day, said what the base clock speeds are). Putting any technical limitation on a design, where there doesn't have to be one is a wasted effort. When you complicate a design, needlessly, you're a poor designer. That is not a matter of opinion, but that is a fact; from engineering, to graphic design, to everything else. And I know Cerny didn't design these features without a need. The CPU and GPU doesn't operate at variable speeds because Cerny was just in the mood to make things more complicated. They operate at variable freqs because they have to. Because, in order for this thing to perform efficiently, compromises had to be made, and that is exactly what this is; compromises!
This is a result of poor design, and trying to squeeze a little extra juice out of something, without revisiting the entire design from the ground up, or increasing the cost of the machine. Cerny makes several claims, all of which go against computer science, practical purposes and developer experience. Even DF is skeptical - it's evident in that very video in the OP.
Cerny may make for a great system designer, but I think he'd make an even better politician.
This is a result of poor design, and trying to squeeze a little extra juice out of something, without revisiting the entire design from the ground up, or increasing the cost of the machine. Cerny makes several claims, all of which go against computer science, practical purposes and developer experience. Even DF is skeptical - it's evident in that very video in the OP.
Cerny may make for a great system designer, but I think he'd make an even better politician.
Tripolygon
Banned
You either have not read the article which the video does a serious dis-service to because it is packed with detail; or you are showing a serious lack of reading comprehension. Either-way please stop.
The profiles are there for debugging
It is simply there so allow developers to isolate the GPU or CPU to see their activity without one affecting the other. That is how profiling and optimization works. You look at the GPU and CPU activity to see what is taking forever to process and causing increase in frame time.
Bladed Thesis
Member
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
For sure. I know a guy at work who had a shitty looking VW Rabbit or Golf and he messed with it to be fast.
The thing is even if it's fast, it's still a shit car.
The PS4 supercharged PC... lol... pretty sure a decent PC in 2013 could run games well at 1080p or higher at better settings.
ethomaz
Banned
He doesn't say that... the guy made up.
ethomaz
Banned
He said that because Xbox Phil said the same so he believes PS5 follow the same.
GymWolf
Member
cerny probably had to deal with the 400 dollars top budget imposed by sony and that's why he tried to squeeze the most from a weaker console with exotic stuff like this variable boost clock.
i don't see any reason to not use a 12tf gpu with fixed clock if not for a money problem.
longdi
Banned
Well said!
If you make a mistake, just come clean and say so. In Sony case, just power is not a concern.
ethomaz
Banned
The second option.
OneShotThrill
Member
Lol thats no where near the same analogy brother. It would be like having a tuned Camry that can hit the horsepower of a stock Lexus.
GymWolf
Member
yeah, it's a pretty pointless video, we don't know a single new thing compared to their last video.
people still don't have a clue about how this variable boost clock is gonna work with heavy games in real world applications.
ethomaz
Banned
The fact they hide a lot of info from the interview in the video tells you a lot.
joe_zazen
Member
I have zero confidence in their marketing or management, but the hardware design team should not be lumped into that bucket.
My guess is there will be zero games that leverage the hardware at the reveal. At best we will see some simulated gameplay of games that are 2+ years out, and they will all be 3rd person narrative action games except for boring ass esport gt. Next year we might see something cool from psvr2, but imo, there is a good chance they are done with VR. Reveal will only be fun for TLOU2/Spiderman/Horizon fans.
my prediction is PS5 will be a cool, well designed console with great cost reduction potential but it will be hobbled by terrible SIE management/marketing and bog standard first party games.
BattleScar
Member
With SmartShift, this shouldn't be a huge issue. Whenever the CPU is idling or has low utilisation, whatever power it doesn't need will go to GPU to keep it running as fast as it needs to. Likewise, whenever the GPU idles the CPU will get a little extra power to keep it performing at its best.
Tripolygon
Banned
Read the article people it has way more information than the video.
Seriously it is a rather very radical change in how systems are designed especially so when it comes to consoles. It is rather really clever but we will have to see it working in other to see if their design works well. I'll try and answer your question.
The overall system has a power budget
The CPU and GPU have their own power budget
Both CPU and GPU can reach their max clock speed based on their own separate power budget
Power draw does not scale linearly with clock speed but workload
So say for example the GPU can be rendering a scene in a game and the power draw can be small but in another scene the power draw can be high and the clock speed can still be the same for both.
When you are GPU bound, it means you are likely not to be CPU bound so the CPU can down-clock and send some of its power to the GPU to increase performance. While still remaining under normal thermal load therefore the fan shouldn't spin faster to cool the system. Because the maximum power budget is known and has not been exceeded. The system leaves no performance on the table, because it can redirect power where it is needed.
I am not saying the PS5 is some magical system that will make it more powerful than Series X, it is just a cleverly designed system that we are not used to in consoles. I really don't understand any other way to explain it.
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They're doing exclusives with people now yes. But they really bend over backwards to apologize and praise Nintendo Switch games using full hyperbole and exhausting mental gymnastics.
They used to be 100% impartial and platform agnostic.
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it_wasn't_me
Banned
Just read Matt's post on ERA. Looks like some Xbox fans will be dissapointed
SmokSmog
Member
As expected, more CUs better performance and scaling with Teraflops.
That means Xbox series X on paper is at worst 18% faster than max PS5 boost, in reality with CU scaling and variable PS5 clocks, XSX will be around 25-30% faster on average during graphics demanding workloads.
That means Xbox series X on paper is at worst 18% faster than max PS5 boost, in reality with CU scaling and variable PS5 clocks, XSX will be around 25-30% faster on average during graphics demanding workloads.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
What did he say?
Is this the same Matt mod who was with everyone else saying PS5 was 12-13tf?
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Handy Fake
Member
Pop it on here chief?
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Dark1 said this on ERA said this :
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive [Digital Foundry]
With that PS5 experience set up, my guess is they were going to have a proper reveal, not just a dev talk, in March but COVID post poned it. They probably planned to show off DS5 but not the system, and wait until May/June to do so. Idk I feel like they'll do a PS5 online presentation either a...
www.resetera.com
and Matt
MS has been more reserved privately than Sony, but more open publicly.
They are just different strategies.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive [Digital Foundry]
Yeah, that was strange for DF to ignore the ssd part. At the beginning of the video they said they're going to talk about the small details, but ignored one of the major parts of Cerny's presentation.
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it_wasn't_me
Banned
He gave the nod to XSX being more powerful. Well, on his educated guess. Cheers
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joe_zazen
Member
came across this:
Driver on Meth Supercharged His Car with Leaf Blower
+++++++++
all i am saying is Cerny isn't a liar and saying he is one is just wrong. Whether that comes from not understanding what these words mean, or from some well of hate, idk.
PS5 and XsX are both fine and have had a lot of work put into them. Niether is a 2013 X1 or WiiU. And 99% of experiences, aside from maybe VR (if it is still a thing), will be the same. And Switch is going to outsell both, so gen is already lost.
ruvikx
Banned
It's amazing how better specs printed on paper without possible interpretation will result in "disappointed Xbox fans"... because a bunch of marketeers & nobodies on the internet praise a rival product. The Xbox Series X has better specs, end of. The "special sauce" insinuations are just cringy at this point. We'll see whether the price reflects the difference.
Agnostic2020
Member
Lol thats not how any of this works . Variable frequencies are for when the code doesn't need the maximum power so it stays cool. It is always 10.3 tf when needed by the game codeAs expected, more CUs better performance and scaling with Teraflops.
That means Xbox series X on paper is at worst 18% faster than max PS5 boost, in reality with CU scaling and variable PS5 clocks, XSX will be around 25-30% faster on average during graphics demanding workloads.
Again cerny said :
"There's enough power that both CPU and GPU can run at their limits of 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, it isn't the case that the developer has to choose to run one of them slower."
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