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[SHAFT MASTER]

Going by the one screenshot we have, it does look a bit bad though.

edit:

The image I mentioned. Give it some proper AA and there goes the 66% GPU utilization.

Yeah man, that screenshot looks absolutely atrocious

Spoiler

*rolls eyes*

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

No, it was always "Holidays 2017" I think (just checked some news from after E3 last year). I wonder if their narrative hasn't changed lately to just "2017" / "next year" but I wasn't really following it very closely.

Ha! Even in the reveal Phis said "next year" - check the NX Gamer video linked few posts above.

Its Holiday 2017. Even if they could release it earlier its best to release last in the year to make sure as many titles as possible are available.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

This only works if significant percentage Scorpio buyers aren't Xbox hardcore gamers, because MS gains nothing from the already Xbox owners upgrading to Scorpio.

Don't they?

I mean, they gain SOMETHING. Most of us upgrading will more than likely trade in or sell off the old console so some new owner is most likely jumping in there.

They only gain one new sale but also one new customer to the ecosystem. Yeah, the ideal scenario is a brand new Xbox customer buying into Scorpio, but an existing is still a sale.

 

[Chobel]

R&D is pretty much a sunk cost, MS doesn't have consider it when pricing Scorpio.

 

[anothertech]

Yeah man, that screenshot looks absolutely atrocious

Spoiler

*rolls eyes*

Almost drive club level, Amirite?

 

[tzare]

Why do people keep saying that the gpu is 50% more powerful than the pros? Just because letterhead says so in his video. His reasoning for that makes no sense.

Not an expert but: 6TF/4.2TF=1.4 2300mhzcpu/2100mhzCPU=1,095 (add another 0.2 from DX offloading)

This only works if significant percentage Scorpio buyers aren't Xbox hardcore gamers, because MS gains nothing from the already Xbox owners upgrading to Scorpio.

well, if they have decent margins on hw it does not matter who buys the console, be it previous XB owners (will be the most, probably) it is net gain. If the go the low margin route every console not sold is needs many more to compensate, and/or also customers that do not own XB and will buy games that compensate for it.

 

[Sad Affleck]

Well whatever theory you are referring to isn't reality.

I don't think you're being objective about this. We have a pretty good idea of the amount of graphical horsepower required for native 4K at console settings. The PS4 Pro doesn't have that horsepower. That is not an opinion, that is an undeniable fact.

 

[leeh]

My glass is not half empty. I'm simply being realistic. I am not going to make up or embellish information because it will make me feel warmer inside.

I understand you're being realistic, but it's not like I get the sense you're excited about it even though you're in the industry and you're going to be developing against it. Like, I'm just genuinly intruiged to hear your feelings on things like this, whether your day job has sorta took the spark out of it, you know?

 

[Matt]

Don't they?

I mean, they gain SOMETHING. Most of us upgrading will more than likely trade in or sell off the old console so some new owner is most likely jumping in there.

They only gain one new sale but also one new customer to the ecosystem. Yeah, the ideal scenario is a brand new Xbox customer buying into Scorpio, but an existing is still a sale.

No, your logic doesn't hold up. There is no shortage of used XBO's right now.

However, what would be correct is that a XBO owner that buys a Scorpio might be inclined to spend more money in the ecosystem at that point, either to justify their purchase, or because they had been buying multi platform titles on the PS4.

 

[Colbert]

I think people are at this point overestimating he number of native 4K titles on the system. And I say that also acknowledging that there will be many.

Nobody will expect 100% native 4K titles on the Scorpio but you can already fairly say that the majority of games there will have a native 4K display. And with majority I mean about of 75-80% of the games.

 

[scoobs]

Yep, cause my i7 2600 is the same price as my i7 6700, cause that's how it works. And the CPU and gpu in the Scorpio are totally the same as the pros. Did you see the Scorpio breakdown articles today? No reason at all the Scorpio will be a penny more than pro. They'll both be $299 this holiday. Cause that's how it works.

$499 is conservative. $599 is not far fetched tbh.

Throw your $399 fantasies to the water closet boys, it's a pipe dream. Like zen and vega.

I mean, they both have an 8 core jaguar CPU and an RX 480. So... I mean, they're pretty similar APUs wouldn't you reckon? Sure it'll cost more to produce, but it really can't be some crazy amount more given it will have been an entire year since PS4 Pro released.

What did they do? They took what the PS guys put in the PS4 Pro a year ago, clocked it all higher across the board and dropped in 4 extra GB of gddr5 RAM. Tell me how that's even remotely similar to two completely different CPU architectures in the i7 2600 and i7 6700. Your example is nonsensical.

 

[Matt]

I don't think you're being objective about this. We have a pretty good idea of the amount of graphical horsepower required for native 4K at console settings. The The PS4 Pro doesn't have that horsepower. That is not an opinion, that is an undeniable fact.

It of course depends on the game. The Pro has native 4K games. The Scorpio will have more. Every Scorpio game will not be native 4K.

This all started from me saying neither the Pro or the Scorpio are half assed, and I stand by that. They both represent about the best product that could have been delivered at their chosen time for their chosen prices.

 

[mrklaw]

UHD drive, cooling, Memory, the whole R&D process (MS certainly spent more than Sony on this regard) and I am sure other things as well...

Why is everyone acting as if 499 is unreasonable all of a sudden? Hell, even DF guys (who we are considering pretty knowledgeable of these things) suggested 499$ as the price tag.... and remember they had an exclusive showing with MS and I am sure MS was provided with a draft of their article/video prior to them going public.

Also, you should take into consideration the fact that MS themselves marketed Scorpio as a high end hardcore console machine, implying that it aint gonna come cheap. Thats the company that launched with a 499$ XB1 system.

All in all, I think 499$ is pretty damn reasonable and an amazing price for what you get.

UHD drive is in the S so can't be too expensive or MS wouldn't have bothered. Cooling will add cost yes. The ram someone pointed out is fewer chips than launch PS4 and the APU is about the same size as launch XB1

Personally all this 'premium' talk feels like marketing and positioning to me. I would be surprised to see it actually be expensive and if this feels like setting people up for an 'OMG what value!' When all their premium talk turns into a $399 price point

 

[Colbert]

I mean, they both have an 8 core jaguar CPU and an RX 480. So... I mean, they're pretty similar APUs wouldn't you reckon? Sure it'll cost more to produce, but it really can't be some crazy amount more given it will have been an entire year since PS4 Pro released.

There are arguments for a price of $399, there are arguments for a price of $499 but I don't see any argument for a price of $599.

$399:
Similar components as Xbox One S
Same die sizes of the OG Xbox One (which could have been $399 without Kinect)

$499:
Cooling solution
more memory and GDDR5
bigger and faster hard drive

$599:
nada, nothing, void, nil, nullptr

 

[pieface]

No, your logic doesn't hold up. There is no shortage of used XBO's right now.

Wait, what? There's no shortage of any used console right now. Not sure why that comes into it? The original point still stand. Just because consoles are for sale it doesn't mean they are not being sold.

 

[Matt]

I understand you're being realistic, but it's not like I get the sense you're excited about it even though you're in the industry and you're going to be developing against it. Like, I'm just genuinly intruiged to hear your feelings on things like this, whether your day job has sorta took the spark out of it, you know?

lol, to be completely honest, I am very eager to get my Scorpio in the fall. I like gaming on consoles, and it will become my new primary system.

But, there is nothing particularly exciting about it in the abstract. I have been playing games on PC's that have and will continue to look better than what Scorpio will have to offer. Scorpio isn't going to advance the gaming industry in any way, because we will still be tied to the XBO. I'm excited to have a new toy, but from both a within the industry and from a player perspective, there isn't really any "wow" going on here. To be frank, the Switch is more exciting in terms of new possibilities to me, even though I will be playing my Scorpio a whole lot more than my Switch.

 

[meirl]

UHD drive is in the S so can't be too expensive or MS wouldn't have bothered.

Why doesnt the PRO have a UHD Drive then if its so cheap?

 

[Klocker]

NX gamer has his breakdown

https://youtu.be/toFU9ijmAL0

Thanks. Good summary

People can nitpick all they want while I simply play with ultra textures, fast loading, 4k iq in all my old and new games on my Xbox.
I'll be in gaming heaven

 

[Dehnus]

Scorpio is cool and all.

But why should anyone with an itch for platinum games ever not pick on Microsoft for behaving like a corporate dick? For e.g. no one ever gets called out to stop with EA for their titanfall 2 fiasco either.

Microsoft is not a hivemind.
They have smart people and they have scalebound canceling people.
Microsoft acts like it wants to listen to the crowd.
So why should there anything be wrong with listing complaints where its due?
I am too worried that the scorpio wont be as legit as it could be, because of typical microsoft shit.
Kinect, canceling scalebound, scalebound, and kinect was kinda stupid.
Kinect is seemingly not a "threat" anymore, but I am not certain what other stupid shit they are capable of. After all they canceled scalebound.

Sabotaging scalebounds development.
I mean:
What
the
fuck

Shoving multiplayer down the packed scalebound development-roadmap-throat:
....

Milestone fuckery:
.......

Canceling scalebound:
ok

Spoiler

/s

Presenting the Scorpio:
Oh Cool,
show
us
more

Kinect? A threat? Seriously? Methinks you take this stuff a little to personal. Some people like me loved Kinect, or at least how it originally was. Kinect Sports was great with the family and with people that had disabilities. And now again MS showed they care about these people, with "copilot" as a feature.

For the first time in ages my father will be able to play a non motion controlled computer game again!

So yes, I really don't think Kinect was a threat to you. I think Don Matrick and his gacha way of thinking was.

 

[Matt]

Nobody will expect 100% native 4K titles on the Scorpio but you can already fairly say that the majority of games there will have a native 4K display. And with majority I mean about of 75-80% of the games.

Well I think that's not a bad guess on your part, and it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

 

[mrklaw]

Why doesnt the PRO have a UHD Drive then if its so cheap?

Ask Sony. Maybe strategically they didn't want to affect their CE UHD sales? Maybe margins at the time on pro were tight to hit a desired price point?

 

[AmyS]

Microsoft is not a hivemind.
They have smart people and they have scalebound canceling people.

They have smart people and they have scalebound canceling people.

Wat did I just read? LOL.

 

[Matt]

Wait, what? There's no shortage of any used console right now. Not sure why that comes into it? The original point still stand. Just because consoles are for sale it doesn't mean they are not being sold.

?

I'm saying more people selling their XBO's into the used market is no guarantee that the demand for used XBOs will increase.

 

[SHAFT MASTER]

Almost drive club level, Amirite?

When I saw that screenshot I was thinking "man, is that a photograph of that arcade game Daytona USA?"

 

[scoobs]

the RX 480 can play most AAA games right now at 4K/30 on PC so I see very little reason why that won't carry over to the Scorpio. I imagine almost all games will be 4K/30, and a small amount will hit 60. Probably an even smaller number will be sub 4K if I had to guess.

 

[Aceofspades]

Scorpio is literally a slightly overclocked PRO with extra 3GB of Ram.

This thing shouldn't be a penny higher than $450

PRO launched at $399, Scorpio should be $450 due to 4KBD + Cooling solution.

 

[Behlel]

Why doesnt the PRO have a UHD Drive then if its so cheap?

Because it's a PS4 and every ps4 doesn't have an UHD drive simple and easy to understand. Stop acting like an UHD drive is a top choice if you can't even use the extra layer for your games.

 

[anothertech]

I don't think you're being objective about this. We have a pretty good idea of the amount of graphical horsepower required for native 4K at console settings. The The PS4 Pro doesn't have that horsepower. That is not an opinion, that is an undeniable fact.

Well that's actually the basis for the argument, the pro doesn't hit that mark. So most games use checkerboard rendering. Is 40% more hp going to hit native every time? How much better will the checkerboard rendering be in that case?

 

[Raide]

Check out benchmarks for the rx480 then, you'll see comparable performance. Digital Foundry uses The Division's benchmark tool to test cards.

With an i7 it pulls off 1080/60fps, so its pretty damn solid. You'd probably get like 4k/30 on the Scorpio.

Thanks for that. Gives a pretty good indication what to expect but we might get some further tweaking options hopefully.

 

[Detective]

Hmmm, Wonder how a game will look if they use all that power for graphics,etc and keep it at 1080p or above.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Scorpio is literally a slightly overclocked PRO with extra 3GB of Ram.

This thing shouldn't be a penny higher than $450

PRO launched at $399, Scorpio should be $450 due to 4KBD + Cooling solution.

I agree with this.

 

[Maximus P]

Scorpio is literally a slightly overclocked PRO with extra 3GB of Ram.

This thing shouldn't be a penny higher than $450

PRO launched at $399, Scorpio should be $450 due to 4KBD + Cooling solution.

'Literally'?

 

[anothertech]

Scorpio is literally a slightly overclocked PRO with extra 3GB of Ram.

This thing shouldn't be a penny higher than $450

PRO launched at $399, Scorpio should be $450 due to 4KBD + Cooling solution.

All those extra cu's and threads and clocks and modified upgraded parts cost nothing cause that's how it works. Ram too. And MS is going to sell at a loss cause that's the trend for them this gen. $299 is a lock.

Also we can jailbreak the Pro and oc that motherfcker n we got a Scorpio already fellas. Sony done it again.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Hmmm, Wonder how a game will look if they use all that power for graphics,etc and keep it at 1080p or above.

 

[scoobs]

All those extra cu's and threads and clocks and modified upgraded parts cost nothing cause that's how it works. Ram too. And MS is going to sell at a loss cause that's the trend for them this gen. $299 is a lock.

I don't get the feeling based on your last two posts here that you "get how it works."

 

[Snake29]

All those extra cu's and threads and clocks and modified upgraded parts cost nothing cause that's how it works. Ram too. And MS is going to sell at a loss cause that's the trend for them this gen. $299 is a lock.

Also we can jailbreak the Pro and oc that motherfcker n we got a Scorpio already fellas. Sony done it again.

36 vs 40 is not really a big upgrade. Most people expected 60 (Vega say hi!), and now it´s not vega but just the same GPU Pro has. Both GPU´s are Polaris/Vega based.

 

[Raide]

36 vs 40 is not really a big upgrade. Most people expected 60 (Vega say hi!), and now it´s not vega but just the same GPU Pro has. Both GPU´s are Polaris/Vega based.

But the extra ram, GPU bandwidth, CPU modifications etc, should pull it a good way ahead of just being an upclocked Pro.

 

[a.wd]

This thing is not a slightly overclocked PS4P, the throughput from CPU, and increase in GPU puts it a step change ahead of PS4P.

This will absolutely beast PS4P in most games and will decimate it when it comes to VR stuff also.

My only interest now is how much is it going to cost, the performance will be fantastic, but I held off on a PS4P to see the specs and I would like some 4k gaming without breaking the piggy bank.

Also HDMI in means "instawin" (for me ymmv)

 

[Colbert]

It of course depends on the game. The Pro has native 4K games. The Scorpio will have more. Every Scorpio game will not be native 4K.

This all started from me saying neither the Pro or the Scorpio are half assed, and I stand by that. They both represent about the best product that could have been delivered at their chosen time for their chosen prices.

This is what baffles me with your comments. Who cares how many native 4K games the PS4 Pro has in a thread that is about what the just revealed specs can do for the Scorpio? Should this be your biggest concern in this thread?

 

[Sony]

36 vs 40 is not really a big upgrade. Most people expected 60 (Vega say hi!), and now it´s not vega but just the same GPU Pro has. Both GPU´s are Polaris/Vega based.

Genuine question: What does it matter if it's Vega 6TF or Polaris 6TF?

 

[Matt]

This is what baffles me with your comments. Who cares how many native 4K games the PS4 Pro has in a thread that is about what the just revealed specs can do for the Scorpio? Is this your biggest concern? That the PS4 Pro will only have their minority of games available in native 4K of that machines specs?

My comment was responding to a point someone else said. I did not start this conversation, and if you were to stop responding, it would be over by now.

 

[Always-honest]

Just show great exclusives and insane performance at E3 and use downsampling for 1080P with all bells and whistles whenever you can and i'll buy one day one

and please use some of the power for AA... This screen of Forza looks really jaggy (enlarged jpg, so looks better on screen):

 

[Alpolio]

the RX 480 can play most AAA games right now at 4K/30 on PC so I see very little reason why that won't carry over to the Scorpio. I imagine almost all games will be 4K/30, and a small amount will hit 60. Probably an even smaller number will be sub 4K if I had to guess.

But I thought that DF said that the Scorpio's performance matched and in some instances exceeded AMD's Fury X-class hardware. And only the GTX 1080 was able to match the Scorpio's performance with Forza 6.

 

[Ghandi]

Kinect? A threat? Seriously? Methinks you take this stuff a little to personal. Some people like me loved Kinect, or at least how it originally was. Kinect Sports was great with the family and with people that had disabilities. And now again MS showed they care about these people, with "copilot" as a feature.

For the first time in ages my father will be able to play a non motion controlled computer game again!

So yes, I really don't think Kinect was a threat to you. I think Don Matrick and his gacha way of thinking was.

Sorry, to be clear:
I used "threat" as an -for me humorous- absurd exaggeration

It was fun, but viewed retrospectively it should never have been a mandatory pack in, and it often gets mentioned as an example for Microsoft misunderstanding the market

 

[Rooster]

A lot of people seem to underestimating the extra complexity involved in adding that extra 4GB of RAM. It's not just some extra memory chips. They're using a 384bit memory bus. That means lots more pins on the APU and lots more traces on the motherboard. That extra RAM is coming at a far higher cost than it seems.

 

[MaxiLive]

If I were to take a guess at pricing I'm even thinking $499

The main reason being not just the specs but I think they will make console rather premium. As in big HDD/SSD combos as well as a fancy looking case with some brushed metal etc similar to the Surface series. Maybe you even get to bundle one of the create-your-own Xbox One controllers as well. Maybe even create your own Xbox-One?! That would be more like $699 though.

We shall see, hopefully it cheap for everyone looking to upgrade but I from the way Microsoft has been marketing this and pushing the power of the machine it seems like they are aiming for it to be a premium product similar to their Surface series. Then 6 months down the line they'll release the Scropio mini that is the same specs but a cheap plastic case and smaller hdd/no ssd combo.

 

[Colbert]

My comment was responding to a point someone else said. I did not start this conversation, and if you were to stop responding, it would be over by now.

True, I had a delay because of a business phone call. Sometimes time just flies ...

 

[Matt]

I agree, I had a delay because of a phone call. Sometimes time just flies ...

And I'm sitting at home alone in a blackout with insomnia, so I got nothing better to do ;-)

 

[Detective]

That's it folks,
It's just a Pro, pack it up and merge the threads together.

 

[Kayant]

I don't think you're being objective about this. We have a pretty good idea of the amount of graphical horsepower required for native 4K at console settings. The PS4 Pro doesn't have that horsepower. That is not an opinion, that is an undeniable fact.

Alternative facts are all the rage these days huh.