So Zen and Vega were never going to happen. They aren't ready on this timetable and cost profile for semi-custom work. The fact that AMD even said this, and people were resorting to essentially conspiracy theories to justify their beliefs was very telling.I never thought it'd be definitely Zen/Vega, just hoped it would be. Not really disappointed about it. To be blunt I didn't think to you, this scenario would be a fully fledged upgrade.
So Zen and Vega were never going to happen. They aren't ready on his timetable and cost profile for semi-custom work. The fact that AMD even said this, and people were resorting to essentially conspiracy theories to justify their beliefs was very telling.
I would never accuse anyone or any company of half-assing things when they are delivering essentially the best product they can for when and for how much they have set as their target. MS did a lot of impressive work on Scorpio, for example getting the speed of the GPU as high as it is. They deserve to be applauded for their work. It's not half assed, or a half step. It's exactly what they said it was going to be.
Digital Foundry was making passing comments about it performing like a GTX 1070. We're also getting native 4K, 16xAF, Supersampling, 4K Blu-Ray, custom cooling and tuning, boosted performance across Xbox One and Xbox 360 games. Yes, it will flawlessly play hundreds of 360 games.As I wrote earlier I strongly believe people should be excited about this new opportunity of playing the majority of multi plats in native 4K or supersampled 1080p instead trying to suck that excitement out of the people.
Definitely, I'm moving into a new home next month and I can't wait to kit a room out with 2 4K monitors with a good PC build in preparation for Scorpio.As I wrote earlier I strongly believe people should be excited about this new opportunity of playing the majority of multi plats in native 4K or supersampled 1080p on a console instead trying to suck that excitement out of the people.
Orite, don't be a dick.They are under NDA, didn't you hear? They must be lying. /s
Man, leeh and LukasTaves spins were glorious.
This is a very common PCMR argument, reductively saying all optimize = cut feature.Consoles optimise things by turning off several graphical effects in a more granular level.
I am a german. We germans love PCs as everybody knows here. I was into PC gaming at the time the first Doom popped up (that time I studied computer science). But after several years of upgrading hardware and software more or less very frequently I eventually sat down calculating all the money and hours I put into this.
I can tell you, it was a shock how much I wasted into this.
I want to know if a 2017 console, if next gen, was actually expected to be any more powerful.
The most importantly thing is that this is done in such a way that we get mid-high PC graphics while being 100% compatible with the older system. It's a nice precedent.
MS has to deliver on games, and that point will be brought up again and again until E3.
Why do you feel like you wasted your time and money? This is the part I never seem to understand. You paid more money and got a better experience.
The power you get in consoles, especially the PS4 pro, compared to what you get in PC gaming is fantastic value for money.Why do you feel like you wasted your time and money? This is the part I never seem to understand. You paid more money and got a better experience.
I want to know if a 2017 console, if next gen, was actually expected to be any more powerful.
If you are a console gamer like me (even sitting on a 4K gaming laptop) then Scorpio is the place to be to play multi platform regardless if on a 1080p or 4K TV.
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On a general note:
Why is it that some just want to suck out the excitement some other have about the new Xbox console? We are talking about a hobby for most of us and a hobby usually should bring some recreation and fun into someone's life. Reading some of the spin going on here is instead depressing and sometimes embarrassing.
So Zen and Vega were never going to happen. They aren't ready on this timetable and cost profile for semi-custom work. The fact that AMD even said this, and people were resorting to essentially conspiracy theories to justify their beliefs was very telling.
I would never accuse anyone or any company of half-assing things when they are delivering essentially the best product they can for when and for how much they have set as their target. MS did a lot of impressive work on Scorpio, for example getting the speed of the GPU as high as it is. They deserve to be applauded for their work. It's not half assed, or a half step. It's exactly what they said it was going to be.
It's just the same how everyone was speculating about that second version of the Pro with a better CPU..
I wouldn't call that being a dick. In terms of Zen as a possibility it was flat out ruled out by AMD yet people choose to speculate around the impossible.Definitely, I'm moving into a new home next month and I can't wait to kit a room out with 2 4K monitors with a good PC build in preparation for Scorpio.
Orite, don't be a dick.
The same people who were excited for the possibility of it being Zen/Vega are the exact same people who are very excited for Scorpio, knowing it's specs.
There's no need to kick people down around what is in the realm of possibility with the whole "disappointed concern" posts.
It's just the same how everyone was speculating about that second version of the Pro with a better CPU. Like yeah, it was out there, but it doesn't stop people being excited for what's in the realm of possibility.
Yes, you are right. The Pro is also not half assed. I have said that several times as well.But in this regard neither PS4 Pro is half assed also.. when one or two developers were coming saying Scorpio would be a truly next gen machine it is now proven false.
Pretty much the Scorpio is in simple terms a overclocked PS4 Pro with an exotic cooling system...
Nevertheless it seems to me Scorpio is a pretty solid and well thought machine and a return to form from MS.. and I'm very happy with that.
Why do you feel like you wasted your time and money? This is the part I never seem to understand. You paid more money and got a better experience.
Yes, you are right. The Pro is also not half assed. I have said that several times as well
These are all software related issues though which we can all agree based on what MS is achieving is half assed the hardware wasn't.It's definately not as fully formed a product as what has been shown of Scorpio even this far.
2 really good examples of this are boost mode , which wasn't in at launch and Sony have washed their hands of in terms of support (by making it "entirely at your own risk). I mean , choices are good, but how about a little less of a wishy washy level of commitment to compatibility.
Second, video capture is still at 1080p and HDR captures are not tone mapped to SDR and don't play back in HDR when captured in that format, so always looks strange.
I don't think either of those make it a "less fully formed product." They are simply different decisions coming from different places and different factors. For example, because of the way the XBO SDK is set up, the improvements they are promising for legacy titles are a more straightforward thing to implement. And the XBO has better hardware to support 4K captures (though yeah, problems with HDR should be addressed).It's definately not as fully formed a product as what has been shown of Scorpio even this far.
2 really good examples of this are boost mode , which wasn't in at launch and Sony have washed their hands of in terms of support (by making it "entirely at your own risk). I mean , choices are good, but how about a little less of a wishy washy level of commitment to compatibility.
Second, video capture is still at 1080p and HDR captures are not tone mapped to SDR and don't play back in HDR when captured in that format, so always looks strange.
The PC has a lot more viable parts to chose from. MS does not.Not that anyone would, but If someone built a PC with similar ratio of weak CPU to much more powerful GPU, it would certainly be called 'half-arsed'.
As a machine designed to play X1 games at a native 4K30, it seems perfect. I would call any machine with a ~6tf GPU not capable of 60Hz half arsed though, but that's me.The PC has a lot more viable parts to chose from. MS does not.
I mean, there will be some 60 FPS titles, but MS does have to work within the realms of reality. If having a better CPU was a requirement for the Scorpio to get made, it just wouldn't have been made (at least, not now).As a machine designed to play X1 games at a native 4K30, it seems perfect. I would call any machine with a ~6tf GPU not capable of 60Hz half arsed though, but that's me.
Nah it would absolutely have been very, very nice to get a better CPU in there. There would absolutely be a ton of benefits across the board. It just wasn't really possible to do.The primary goal of scorpio is to run games at ~4K. Even if it somehow had a Zen lite the majority of games would still be 30fps. 4K/60fps takes some doing.
And the Jaguar is perfectly capable of that. It's weak by modern standards but it's not as hopeless as some make out.
I never understood the desperate need for Zen because it wouldn't have changed much anyway, and in fact would have been largely unnecessary for what the Scorpio aims to do.
If you are a console gamer like me (even sitting on a 4K gaming laptop) then Scorpio is the place to be to play multi platform regardless if on a 1080p or 4K TV.
--------
On a general note:
Why is it that some just want to suck out the excitement some other have about the new Xbox console? We are talking about a hobby for most of us and a hobby usually should bring some recreation and fun into someone's life. Reading some of the spin going on here is instead depressing and sometimes embarrassing.
Nah it would absolutely have been very, very nice to get a better CPU in there. There would absolutely be a ton of benefits across the board. It just wasn't really possible to do.
First I did not want to generalize my personal story.
In reflection it wasn't to get the best experience for gaming. For me it was to have the best PC out there. It was all about playing catch up with the latest tech.
The power you get in consoles, especially the PS4 pro, compared to what you get in PC gaming is fantastic value for money.
Yes, there would have been more 60 FPS games, and for games running below that they would have been much more likely to be locked at 30.Of course there would be benefits. But would we see a lot more games running at 60fps in 4K? I doubt it.
That seems like the main reason people were hoping for one, 60fps games.
When you aim for 4k/30fps with a GPU like Pro/Scorpio have, the difference in framerate between a 2.1GHz Jag and a CPU twice as fast is like 5%. In this sense, the CPU doesn't matter since most console games are GPU-bound and 30fps.The primary goal of scorpio is to run games at ~4K. Even if it somehow had a Zen lite the majority of games would still be 30fps. 4K/60fps takes some doing.
And the Jaguar is perfectly capable of that. It's weak by modern standards but it's not as hopeless as some make out.
I never understood the desperate need for Zen because it wouldn't have changed much anyway, and in fact would have been largely unnecessary for what the Scorpio aims to do.
Patches. To add it will run games with dynamic rendering at what their highest target was.So does scorpio run every existing game at 4k by default or does it require patches?
Scorpio won't run any existing game at 4K unless that game is patched to do so. Then it might run at native 4K, or any number of other options.So does scorpio run every existing game at 4k by default or does it require patches?
The GPU isn't up to the job of 4K at 60Hz and 4K is the number one goal. So I don't really see the point in slapping in a more expensive cpu.Of course there would be benefits. But would we see a lot more games running at 60fps in 4K? I doubt it.
That seems like the main reason people were hoping for one, 60fps games.
If you don't care about 60fps, these consoles are fantastic value. If you do, they're crap value.How do you determine value for money? I think the performance per dollar ratio of a decent PC is not that far off the PS4 Pro. It might even beat it. If a PC that costs twice as much as the PS4 Pro performs three times better, which is better value for money?
Man this Q4 is going to be very *interesting* when it comes to multi platforms games. PS4/One/Pro/Scorpio/PC/Switch
DF is going to have their work cut out.
PC versions will always look better unless the devs fucks them up like f.ex. parity.
If that additional performance doesn't really bring someone any more joy, then the additional expense is wasted.How do you determine value for money? I think the performance per dollar ratio of a decent PC is not that far off the PS4 Pro. It might even beat it. If a PC that costs twice as much as the PS4 Pro performs three times better, which is better value for money?
onyl if you have the hardware needed.
Thats not correct. Games that support dynamic resolution or frame rate will run in 4k now. The rest will need to be patchedScorpio won't run any existing game at 4K unless that game is patched to do so. Then it might run at native 4K, or any number of other options.
What games on XBO support a dynamic resolution up to 4K?Thats not correct. Games that support dynamic resolution or frame rate will run in 4k now. The rest will need to be patched
The GPU isn't up to the job of 4K at 60Hz and 4K is the number one goal. So I don't really see the point in slapping in a more expensive cpu.
TLDR; 60fps is expensive.
Thats not correct. Games that support dynamic resolution or frame rate will run in 4k now. The rest will need to be patched
Are we certain 16x AF is forced in all cases? The article that mentions this has a direct quote from Microsoft that all bilinear and trilinear filtering is changed to anisotropic, "And then we've dialled up the anisotropic all the way up to max". Taken very exactly, that doesn't actually claim that, say, 4x AF will be upgraded too. You'd think it would...but Microsoft also said "all our titles" (emphasis mine) will have 16x across the board. Why would they have to specify first-party if the feature is truly universal?I felt quite hopeful with it being Zen/Vega, but I'm happy with what we've got. Mostly the forced 16xAF, which has been my number 1 gripe with console gaming.
That it's achieved is obviously most important. But discussion about Jaguar and Polaris isn't just noise about meamingless details. Thw fact the the machine uses Jaguar and Polaris actually directly affects the likelihood of whether 60fps will happen at all, and the percentage of games that'll be able to reach native 4K. The specific silicon used, and how it's used, are the reason some games won't be improved on Scorpio, for example.How a console achieve native 4K 30 or 60fps (fancy new tech) or that a console achieve native 4K 30 or 60fps for the majority of games (by met the requirements for it)?
Well, which is it? Are choices good, or do you want the platform holder to dictate what level of jank is acceptable? It sounds like you normally would praise having options, but for some reason you want to criticize it in this particular case....boost mode, which wasn't in at launch and Sony have washed their hands of in terms of support (by making it "entirely at your own risk). I mean, choices are good, but how about a little less of a wishy washy level of commitment to compatibility.
So in which way does scorpio enhance existing games (besides games with dynamic resolution)??
Oh sh*t! BwahahaaaMore powerful, but I don't believe it's a 30+% power advantage.
The performance delta between the two platforms is not as great as the raw numbers lead the average consumer to believe. There are things about the PS4 Pro system architecture not fully understood, and there are things about Scorpio as well, that bring the two systems into balance.
There is no way Sony will be giving up a 30%+ advantage to Microsoft. And ANYONE who has seen both systems running could say there are great looking games on both systems. If there was really huge performance difference it would be obvious.
Im not saying Microsoft havent built a good system Im merely saying that anyone who wants to die on their sword over this 30%+ power advantage are going to be fighting an uphill battle over the next 10 years