princemarth23
Member
I haven't seen the movie, but it doesn't seem like a spoiler to me. It's just the basic plot.
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Disneys Frozen [OT] They Pulled Another Tangled!
- Thread starter Tricky I Shadow
- Start date
I haven't seen the movie, but it doesn't seem like a spoiler to me. It's just the basic plot.
True. I'm very picky with what I do or don't want to know when it comes to games and movies.
TDLink
Member
Those are both elements that are introduced in the first 10 minutes of the movie. More premise than anything.
The Librarian
Banned
This is a really silly position to take. You're essentially saying borghe is wrong for thinking a song in Frozen is better than a song in Beauty and the Beast because the song in the Beauty and the Beast "has better lyrics, is structured better, is more lyrically clever, and told a better story," and thus "it's a fact." And that's all the justification you've done relying on subjective measures to justify your factual claim.
If you wanted to argue that the song in Beauty and the Beast isn't comparable to the song in Frozen, and thus the latter can't really be "better" than the former, I think you'd have a better argument. But that's not what you're doing you're saying stuff is better because you think it's better, and the other person is wrong for thinking otherwise.
I haven't seen Frozen, and even so, you're just looking ridiculous and pretentious.
Are those measures really all that subjective, though? Clearly he feels that Tale as Old as Time is an objectively better song when it comes to the lyrics and the composition. Are you arguing that there isn't an objective way to assess art, independent of one's subjective enjoyment?
If so, I think that's kind of a stretch....which I think becomes clear when you compare two extremes (i.e a piece of shit, and a masterpiece). There are reasons one is objectively better than the other, although some might have a better experience with the weaker of the two. Obviously in this case, the difference isn't so vast.
At the very least, what he's arguing is probably inter-subjectively true. If most people were polled, they would probably agree with his conclusion (even if you're right and his evidence is all subjective).
Then again, I've just gone cross eyed so who knows? Frozen's a good movie, guys.
EDIT: I just read through the last page and discovered that this has already been discussed at length. Feel free to ignore me. I don't want to reignite a circular debate/ flame war.
That was probably my favourite sequence. It's definitely up there with some of the most memorable Disney openings.
CharminUltra
Member
Saw this today. I thought it was really good and even great, but nothing amazing; certainly on par with Tangled, except Tangled had better music. Frozen's music isn't bad, but it's disappointingly bland and there wasn't a single memorable piece that I will be humming for days.
Overall, slightly better than the crap Pixar has been putting out lately but nowhere near as good as a Pixar film at the height of their power. Also not better than early 90s Disney, but I did enjoy it waaaaay more than something like, say, Tarzan.
Overall, slightly better than the crap Pixar has been putting out lately but nowhere near as good as a Pixar film at the height of their power. Also not better than early 90s Disney, but I did enjoy it waaaaay more than something like, say, Tarzan.
The Librarian
Banned
Of course. Better lyrically how? Better at telling a story how? What sounds good to you depends on you, and one song may do one thing better or worse depending on what it's made for. My favorite song ever is "Today the Sun's on Us" by Sophie Ellis-Bextor. Do I think it's a better song than "Help Me, Rhonda" by the Beach Boys? Sure, but only because I enjoy it more. Does that mean TTSOU has better lyrics? Fuck if I know. I don't even know how you'd measure that.
If you want to drag out one shit song and one good song and say the latter is better than the former, and as an example of objective standards, you can do that...but that's really out of the parameters of the discussion.
BertramCooper
Banned
It seems like Tarzan isn't very popular on GAF.
Which is a shame, because I love Tarzan. Beautiful animation and phenomenal music from Phil Collins. I don't know if it's because it came at the tail end of the Renaissance, but it doesn't seem to get nearly as much love as some of the other 90s Disney films.
Lots of people seem to unfairly dismiss anything WDAS made after The Lion King.
However, Mulan and even Hercules do seem to get more attention than Tarzan, which strikes me as somewhat odd, I believe that Tarzan was both more financially and critically successful at the time.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Tarzan is the best of the post-Lion King 90s Disney movies.
BertramCooper
Banned
After ruminating on this film for a few hours,
I really think it would have worked better without the character of Anna. Or at the very least, they should have scratched the idea of Elsa being locked away from Anna for most of their childhood.
It's hard to build a compelling narrative about siblings when the siblings don't even know each other.
And ultimately, I think the amount of screen time given to Anna was hugely detrimental to Elsa. Elsa was a far more interesting character, and pretty much all of the film's best parts featured her. But they were few and far between.
It's hard to build a compelling narrative about siblings when the siblings don't even know each other.
And ultimately, I think the amount of screen time given to Anna was hugely detrimental to Elsa. Elsa was a far more interesting character, and pretty much all of the film's best parts featured her. But they were few and far between.
Saw it this morning and I loved it. I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed it. The humor all worked for me. I thought the songs -- and there were plenty -- were really well-integrated in a musical theater way (almost more Les Mis than typical Disney). Only the
song was a dud for me. I thought the whole thing was beautiful. And the movie had me hooked emotionally from the get-go.
I'm just now catching up on all the Disney movies, so I'm no expert on them. Hell, I just saw Lion King, Dumbo, and a few others for the first time this year. But I liked this as much as any I've seen (up there with B&tB). It may even be my favorite, though I'll need the perspective of some time before I can declare that for sure.
I'm looking forward to reading the screenplay, which Disney posted online somewhere for the end-of-year awards.
troll "Fixer-Upper"
I'm just now catching up on all the Disney movies, so I'm no expert on them. Hell, I just saw Lion King, Dumbo, and a few others for the first time this year. But I liked this as much as any I've seen (up there with B&tB). It may even be my favorite, though I'll need the perspective of some time before I can declare that for sure.
I'm looking forward to reading the screenplay, which Disney posted online somewhere for the end-of-year awards.
Didn't really think much of the movie. It felt grossly modern, from the pop song soundtrack to the cup holder references. Incredibly weak choreography too, with little cohesion regarding character location or movement. Didn't really work for me as a musical, a comedy, or a love story. Every character and scene felt overly quirky, and a self-awareness bled through that just came off as cynical and thoughtless.
BertramCooper
Banned
This really bothered me as well.
Tangled had a few "modern" bits of dialogue and song lyrics, but Frozen went overboard. It clashed horribly with the setting, and was just generally irritating.
Tarzan is alright, but I always felt like it was rightfully kept out the pantheon of great Disney films for legitimate reasons. The music is fantastic and it's a beautiful film, but everything else is dry and sort of simple. It's one of those B-tier Disney movies, like Mulan or Hunchback, that I enjoyed enough when I saw them but would never choose to watch again.
Tangled, Wreck-It Ralph, and Frozen were far superior, though they all have their own problems that I probably keep them away from my favorite Renaissance films. (Though I'll have to agree with the ranking of Wreck-It Ralph > Frozen > Tangled that someone posted earlier). Maybe that's just nostalgia clouding my judgment -- there are plenty I probably should rewatch with some perspective.
An easier fix for that would have been to create
much more distrust for Elsa and Anna from the get go. Maybe Anna actually does think Elsa is a freak or a monster, or doesn't understand her sister. Then the story wouldn't just be Elsa accepting herself, it would be Anna accepting Elsa for who she is, even if she's different. The film sort of, kind of tried to do that, but there really needed to be more tension between them because that is the relationship hook that makes this story so unique compared to other Disney films. Still, the rest of the film was so strong that I can forgive this -- I found Anna to be delightful and I was really happy with her character and her screen time.
Christopher
Member
Dont soil mulan hussy! A tier all the way.
I think almost all 90s Disney films are excellent
I think almost all 90s Disney films are excellent
Be a Man is great, but I thought it was wasted potential! It just isn't in the same league as The Little Mermaid, Beauty & the Beast, Aladdin, and The Lion King. I'd probably then put Herculeus and Mulan above Tarzan and Hunchback, though parsing out my rankings on those films would probably just depend on which I had seen most recently. And then, uh, sure, Rescuers Down Under?
Oh, and Pocahontas. You can chill with Rescuers.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Hunchback is God tier Disney when it works - the damn gargoyles are what ruin it.
Can't wait for the Broadway version (finally being produced) which if it's anything like the Berlin run should minimize the juvenile antics.
Can't wait for the Broadway version (finally being produced) which if it's anything like the Berlin run should minimize the juvenile antics.
Spike Spiegel
Member
Just got back from seeing it... did anyone else get the early impression that
I enjoyed it immensely anyway, though. Disney's on a roll with these.
maybe Kristoff was going to go for Elsa? There was the thing about his whole life revolving around ice and him living in the wilderness, and him preferring the company of reindeer to people which sort of fit with Elsa's anti-social leanings, and his complete awe and admiration of the ice palace; so, I thought that maybe that was where they were heading... Elsa admonishes Ana for falling for a guy she barely knows, then does the same thing herself maybe. Plus, Ana still had the prince guy (I totally did not see that swerve coming at all; I just thought his kiss wouldn't fix her because by that point she'd fallen for Kristoff). Then the scene in the ice palace happens and Kristoff barely even acknowledges Elsa's presence once Ana gets zapped and I went, "oh. It's one of those." :|
I enjoyed it immensely anyway, though. Disney's on a roll with these.
Back from watching it with the family. Enjoyed it a great deal overall, but the songs were definitely greater in quantity than quality. They packed in too many early on and then abandoned them in the last third of the film. I thought a brief, mournful duet as
That said, I found the songs to be largely forgettable and very oddly paced; the first quarter of the film they are wall to wall and then peter out as the film goes on.
I greatly enjoyed the
Incredibly welcome and logical turn of events that I totally did not see coming. Was a great turn of events for my daughters to talk about after.
I loved Olaf.
Kristoff and Anna were searching for each other in the storm would have worked well, as would the cut song in the dungeon.
That said, I found the songs to be largely forgettable and very oddly paced; the first quarter of the film they are wall to wall and then peter out as the film goes on.
I greatly enjoyed the
twist that it was not true love's kiss that would save her - but an actual act of love. And not romantic love, but sisterly love.
I loved Olaf.
Exterminieren
Banned
That's also the only song that prevents Let It Go from being the best Disney song since Howard Ashman died.
The film was better than I expected, but I dont think its as amazing as I've seen some people say. The only thing I explicitly hated was the opening title sequence which felt extremely tacked on. Should have just started right at the ice song imo.
One thing that absolutely blew me away though was
Not a bad film but I think preferred Wreck It Ralph and Tangled to it as far as recent Disney offerings go, and Monsters University as far as this years animated films go.
The Mickey Mouse short was worth the price of admission alone imo
One thing that absolutely blew me away though was
when Anna succumbs to the curse, they don't use any cheap emotional tricks with the score by cutting it out completely. The emotions in that scene are driven purely by the characters. I also liked how they didn't dwell on Olaf melting and dealt with it as a quick gag.
Not a bad film but I think preferred Wreck It Ralph and Tangled to it as far as recent Disney offerings go, and Monsters University as far as this years animated films go.
The Mickey Mouse short was worth the price of admission alone imo
Let it Go is not even top three on the Frozen soundtrack. Too non-musicaly in its generic belterness.
Exterminieren
Banned
Pff. It's miles ahead of the rest. Way too much filler, with only Let It Go serving as killer.
Granted, that's mostly through performance, but I'm not going to complain about Idina Menzel belting her lungs out.
BertramCooper
Banned
If Hunchback were a wholly original story, it would be an absolutely incredible achievement and one of Disney's very best animated films.
But it's really hard to overlook how badly it butchered the novel.
But it's really hard to overlook how badly it butchered the novel.
LumpOfCole
Member
Josh Gad can double the quality of any production, it seems. I didn't even know he was in this until I went to see it tonight.
The gushing for late 90s Disney here is odd.. Did you guys grow up on it or something? It always came off to me as lots of great copying of the early 90s hits but with no heart behind any of it.
I do agree that the musical numbers were unevenly paced. I mean they didn't even have a closing song. It didn't bother me but it was noticeable.
I do agree that the musical numbers were unevenly paced. I mean they didn't even have a closing song. It didn't bother me but it was noticeable.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
A fantastic film overall. The animation was amazing, especially the palace sequence. The song were hit and miss for me, only songs I really liked was Elsa's
. Character designs were great, Elsa in particular looked amazing.
For me the films only real miss was....
which was helped by the palace creation sequence.
For me the films only real miss was....
Han's betrayal. There was no set up for it, and it contributed nothing to the film. Have him order Elsa's execution to save the city, but have Anna save her at the last second. It just felt very weak and tacked on.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Best late 90s Disney movie wasn't even a Disney movie. And it was better than anything Disney's ever done.
Aaron Strife
Banned
The weirdness in the Disney ending makes me wonder if they ever considered killing Esmeralda. She has this great, powerful death scene and they ring you for a bit but then they're like "lol jk"
I've thought about doing a fan edit of Hunchback that did two things, reducing the gargoyles (outright removal would be too hard and I think they can have their own charm), and keeping Esmeralda dead somehow. But I have absolutely no idea how that second one could actually be accomplished.
I kind of feel like the book doesn't lend itself to film without some changes. The characters are unlikable and the plot has a tendency to retread itself.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
2nd Disney film in a row where I had no clue it was Alan Tudyk until the credits rolled.
I know it's been hashed out, but I'll tackle this. Personally I found Let It Go to be one of the interesting Disney songs from a musical perspective for all the reasons you docked it for. Unlike many Disney songs that serve simply to establish characters, Let It Go is one of the few that tells a story. The vast majority simply spell out a character trait (Simba's impatience to be a king while also understanding what authority actually represents, Ariel desiring to be part of the human world, Belle and the Beast recognizing their love for each other, the Genie showing off his power, etc.). The characters finish the song where they started. In contrast, Elsa is NOT the same person at the end of the song as she is at the beginning, a transformation mirrored in the onscreen visual change in her character as well as Idina Menzel's fantastic vocal performance (early soft and hesitating, by the end singing at full blast). Even the lyrics start out with worrying about others and ends with Elsa strictly talking about herself. There are also more melodic strains than typically seen, with a verse, bridge, and chorus plus an extended interlude (Disney typically has a strict verse chorus verse chorus repeat chorus structure, sometimes including either an interlude or denouement).
Structurally the entire song works towards that transformation as well with a number of tricks rarely seen in Disney's music. The verses are in a minor key with the bridge and chorus in the related major. There's an extended interlude that strongly drives to the last refrain. The instrumentation starts out quite minimal and builds along with Elsa's growing confidence. The entire song from start to finish has a clear direction and goal, hitting it on the final "Here I stand in the light of day, let the storm rage on!" None of these are unique within Disney's library, but they're not at all common techniques and I can't think of another off the top of my head that uses them all and uses them to directly complement the visual animation on screen and the character development. Even the For the First Time In Forever that you praise so much has none of this other than the layering of Anna and Elsa's parts towards the end (and Elsa's lines are a direct call-ahead to the bride section of Let It Go). There's no character development over the story and structurally it's a simple verse chorus.
So sorry, from an objective, musical standpoint I'm going to 100% disagree with you. Sure the Lopez/Lopez combination is not, on a whole as good as Disney's all-stars. I could easily build a strong list of 10 songs from any or their other writing teams that beat the Lopez/Lopez top 10. But Let It Go, specifically, is a home run that I would put on the level of some of Disney's best. I'm not going to say it's the best since [insert sacred cow here]; ranking at that level involves tremendous splitting hairs and subjectivity. But in terms of objective musical merit? It's easily on the level of anything since Little Mermaid.
As for the movie, I liked it a lot, considerably more than Tangled, which I already think highly of. Tangled's biggest problem, to me, is that it takes a good third or half the movie before it really decides what it wants to be, resulting in some considerable tonal dissonance. Goethel is one of Disney's finest villains, but she's also played chillingly straight. Her approach to Rapunzel is a case study in textbook emotional abuse, with her every action serving to increase Rapunzel's dependence on and subservience towards her. It's not only dark but it's also incredibly realistic. But then you toss in Flynn's characterization in the first half which is not only selfish and self-centered (made worse because it's the same central flaw as Goethel), but it approaches the point of irredeemable. Before the flood he hasn't done a single thing to make you want to like him at all nor has he given any hint that it's there, making his eventual U-turn both sudden and not really in character. He's supposed to be a lovable rogue, but just comes across as a caricatured jerk that feels completely out of place sharing screen time in a movie with someone as realistically monstrous as Goethel. That dissonance peaks in the Snuggly Duckling when, in the opening lines of I've Got a Dream, the guy literally flat-out confesses to murder, complete with taped out body with an ax buried in its head. But it's ok because he plays piano, wants to be loved, and is nice to Rapunzel. It just doesn't fit together. But then you have the aqueduct sequence and the movie doesn't put a foot wrong afterwards. Suddenly it finds its tone, with Rapunzel's growing independence and the [somehow] redeemed Eugene providing the perfect counterweight to Goethel's complete selfishness. Every moment plays out perfectly with the lantern scene culminating as arguably the finest piece of animation ever put to film, hand-drawn or CGI. Absolutely stunning. But I still can't completely overlook the fact that it takes nearly half its running time before it decides what kind of movie it wants to be; the tone it wants to set.
Frozen, on the other hand, is far more assured. It's a much more confident film, having its central message and tone locked in from frame one and sticking to that all the way through. The emphasis on family was also a welcome change from the usual Disney approach (isolated orphans looking for help from outside). Olaf managed to be extremely funny, a surprisingly developed character, and a poignant touch of backstory fleshing out Elsa as well. My biggest gripes are with pacing and the rest of the songs. Do You Want to Build a Snowman isn't much musically, but it's extremely effective at serving its purpose. Same with In Summer. For the First Time In Forever is very well-crafted generic Disney "I Want" song. It's a good song, but it could have easily come from any number of Disney movies dating back to Little Mermaid with no melodic changes and only minor shifts in the lyrics. And Fixer-Upper is a miss on all levels, both musically and in terms of the scene in isolation as well as its place in the movie it occupies. Frozen Heart is the only other real standout. And the middle third felt rushed and could have used a bit more room to breathe. Other gripes are spoilers.
First, the entire movie could have been averted had the parents approached Elsa's powers in any way other than "pretend they're not there and be completely terrified of them." Even the slightest bit of effort at mastery would have averted the meltdown seen. And their death was such a transparent way to make Elsa the queen young as to be laughable. And Hans' turning bad was a mistake. The movie didn't need a bad guy. The distance and emotional conflict between Elsa and Anna was plenty to drive the entire movie without forcing in a love triangle and ultimately meaningless double cross. About the only good that came from it was having Anna a, make her sign of true love be related to her sister instead of romantic love in a nice [but predictable] subversion and b, have it be something she did herself instead of having done to her. Otherwise you could have cut Hans from the movie and almost nothing would change. The only meaningful conflict he serves as the driver of is the initial rushed marriage proposal, which didn't require him as the bad guy anyway.
Otherwise it was a knock-out. Hans had all the character depth of cardboard but everyone else was nicely fleshed out. Even Anna is more than the polyanna she first appears to be. The animation is outstanding throughout with numerous points of jaw-dropping beauty. The humor is most on-target without that very many cringe-inducing misses. I'm not sure it quite hits the level of Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, or Little Mermaid, but it comes close, and it's a solid step up from Tangled which was already an excellent effort in its own right.
I enjoyed the
twist and the sense of despair that sunk in in the aftermath of it. Despite that I thought it was a too convenient an out for Anna's dilemma at falling for two different guys. I was hoping for a more clever, or at least down to earth resolution to that development.
It did seem set up to me, in retrospect. A prince that far down his line making a bee line for the next princess down on her side, in order to coup the kingdom. I thought it worked in the moment but undercut a complication I was hoping for a better resolution to.
It did seem set up to me, in retrospect. A prince that far down his line making a bee line for the next princess down on her side, in order to coup the kingdom. I thought it worked in the moment but undercut a complication I was hoping for a better resolution to.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
For me it was just painfully obvious that they
wanted to make sure they both didn't end up with a guy in the end. And they did so with no thought to making it make some sense. So they decided just to make one guy evil.
Not really relevant is it? It's a musical. It's inspired by the novel and does its own thing with it.
Love is an Open Door was a fantastic sequence. Just. Fun. Loved this movie through and through.
Disney marketing dropped the ball big time though on this one.
I thought the fact that they didn't play on the traditional true love cliche was a wise choice and complemented the rest of the story telling decisions and deviations. Film was mildly predictable, but I never felt that the movie betrayed my intelligence while watching it.
Disney marketing dropped the ball big time though on this one.
Someone wasn't loved as a child.
I thought the fact that they didn't play on the traditional true love cliche was a wise choice and complemented the rest of the story telling decisions and deviations. Film was mildly predictable, but I never felt that the movie betrayed my intelligence while watching it.
I didn't really get that out of it, but I see where you're coming from. It would have been a nice development had
the nice dude who's name I'm blanking on had fallen for Elsa instead of Anna. In the end though I just thought it was an overly easy way to get out of having to resolve there being two men in Anna's life. So they decided just to make one guy evil.
I also really enjoyed Love is an Open Door. I loved all the musical sequences except Fixer Upper haha.
Edit: I also enjoyed the sandwiches call back.
"What's his favourite food?"
"sandwiches!"
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I was not expecting full on musical. I was expecting a few sequences like Tangled.
I knew it was gonna be a musical about two weeks ago. Until then I thought it was going to be an entirely different film but gave it the benefit of the doubt based on Tangled alone.
When I was at Disney world over Halloween they had just started putting the dolls on the shelves for the two sisters. Each had equal space on the rack and I wondered how they were going to deal with two princesses in the film.
Was pleasantly surprised. Because honestly,
this film didn't need a villain. Even though Hans turned out to be one, he was really only a threat for five minutes. This movie lives solely on the struggle between one sister and her magic. And how to learn to love again after a lifetime of fearing oneself.
The dynamic there is really great, and puts the traditional Disney storytelling on its side. The act of true love basically calling out the trope of true loves kiss then completely going in a mother direction, the cute sidekick living (I still am mad at princess and the frog for that death), and the genuine happy ending is a nice, welcome departure from the norm.
The dynamic there is really great, and puts the traditional Disney storytelling on its side. The act of true love basically calling out the trope of true loves kiss then completely going in a mother direction, the cute sidekick living (I still am mad at princess and the frog for that death), and the genuine happy ending is a nice, welcome departure from the norm.
Usually every Disney movie has a point where I don't agree with a narrative choice, where something gets too heavy or the villain is just too much, but this movie didn't suffer from that. There was no point in the film where I felt upset or angry --at the film-- and was able to enjoy it for the full running time.
The Mickey short at the beginning was fantastic, and set the stage for a great feature immediately after. It was a great package, much like Wreck it Ralph with paperman.
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