MuddyDonut
Member
I'm pretty sure you can press a button to instantly trade in your bullets for halos and skip the entire mini game.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DmC |OT| No, F*ck You!
- Thread starter Goon Boon
- Start date
I'm pretty sure you can press a button to instantly trade in your bullets for halos and skip the entire mini game.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
id rather not have to do that at all personally.
you should have been give the option if you want to play angel attack, rather than having the option to quit it when it starts.
I let my friend borrow it , I got it back but to hell with that im trying to beat Batman on the NES
MuddyDonut
Member
Oh I agree, replaying DMC3 really makes me appreciate how little fluff there is and how straight to the point it's designed. Especially in comparison to Bayonetta. Just saying that the option to skip is there.
I don't know what you're getting at in relation to what my post was replying to, care to explain?
All I can say is that I remember forcing myself to beat both original US DMC3 and Ninja Gaiden without any items, continues, etc, and couldn't do it today. So maybe DMC is the right difficulty for my dengerated gaming skills. Both are also directly responsible for my game backlog that still exists to this day.
Yeah, it almost felt like to me NT built the game around that boss battle because that was the only time it felt fresh. I wish it was a bit harder instead of being an easier version of Fleming from SOTD. And I was playing the game on Nephilim.
toastyToast
Member
The character and how it was represented in ad material wasn't palatable to a lot of people. Including fans of the genre.
AcceptableGhost
Member
Ninja Gaiden is actually built around allowing the player to use items. They have no penalty and the game actually is designed around every higher difficulty letting you use items less and less (I think you are limited to one full heal item at a time on Master Ninja in Black IIRC). The DMC series goes the other route and lets you have an absurd amount of healing items if you want but labels them as cheats with big score negatives if you use them.
Not that there is anything wrong with doing no item runs of Ninja Gaiden, I just find it refreshing that items are actually part of the design of that game as opposed to being in-game cheat codes. Of course I would prefer if there was no items in DMC or NG and the game was designed around that.
oh wait, maybe I did actually use them in NG. My bad. I probably had to. I just remember spending an insane amount of time on it. I know in vanilla DMC3 I didn't because of the penalty aspect. I remember that last run of bosses being brutal.
AcceptableGhost
Member
I like DMC3 & DMC4 more than Bayonetta just because I purely find the combat more enjoyable in those games and they are more replayable to me. I kind of dislike the huge bosses in Bayonetta as well and there is a higher amount of annoying stuff in Bayonetta in replays. I really do like Bayonetta though - one of the main reasons I own a 360 is to have the proper version of that great game. There is no substitute for DMC though (DmC is not a valid substitute either, not even close).
Alright so you moved the discussion back to "minimum skill required to beat the game on Normal mode". Now I am going to prove how it doesn't take much skill to beat DMC3 (at least not a great deal more than either Bayonetta/NG).
Everyone I know including myself who beat NA DMC3 did it with some form of grinding. By that I mean they played the first level over and over again until they got more health, more items, yellow orbs, moves, abilities and style experience. Once they grinded themselves to a certain point, the game became much, much easier but as far as skill was concerned... they still button mashed with the occasional dodge. The only real challenge in DMC3 NA has always been Cerberus and AgniRudra with limited checkpoints and a difficulty that was originally balanced around you having a bigger moveset/more health/DT. By grinding you make those boss fights much easier especially with access to full yellow orbs. The game does not deter you from grinding either, in fact I would say the mission replay system encourages it.
As far as "base skill" required to beat Cerberus, he has the easiest exploit in the game that was discovered day 1 of the game. You sit in the far left of the corner and shoot him to death DMC2 style. Yes people I know did this to beat him. Other people just beat him the regular way, not that hard when you have a bunch of yellow orbs, green items and holy waters. When they got to Agni and Rudra, once they figured out that mashing Revolver beats them clean they just needed to figure out that you are better off killing them at the same time rather than focusing on one of them at a time. Again not that hard to figure out when you can take risks with items.
The whole checkpoint system made it way harder to learn boss patterns because you were so caught up on trying not to die so you don't have to start the god damn mission over again. People didn't try to be creative, change up styles or take risks. It stunted their skill evolution. So what did they do? They went to Mission#1 again, grinded a shit ton, got a bunch of items and beat the bosses.
Well after they beat A&R the game's difficulty drops off a cliff. I mean you rarely died from enemies before this but you had to be pretty bad to die to regular enemies after A&R. The first Vergil boss fight is easy and the rest of the bosses presented are not that hard at all especially after the Vergil boss fight you get Devil Trigger which allows you to hose down bosses quicker while taking more risks. You also have more red orbs to spend on items and such. It's pretty much common knowledge by now that DMC3 has one of the most front loaded difficulty curves in action gaming.
Anyone championing beating DMC3 NA's normal difficulty as some sort of godly skill requiring accomplishment is just focusing on two bosses in the game (and arguably the last boss as well although you have unlimited checkpoints there anyway). You play DMC3 NA Normal (DMC3SE Hard) now on SE WITH checkpoint systems, just about anyone can beat it. It's way easier than any NG game and arguably easier OVERALL than Bayonetta. You will die on Cerberus but you will learn quicker from your deaths as opposed to going all the way to the start of the mission and then back to him again to have a crack at him. You can put this to the test by having someone completely new to the genre play DMC3 NA and Bayonetta/NG2 but record their number of deaths. You will not be surprised to learn that he would probably end up dying more in the latter two games but it feels like he is dying more in the first one because he has to replay a full mission for his death.
The whole items/checkpoints bull shit I don't give a fuck about. Any of these games can be cheesed to beat it on normal, DMC3 NA normal is no exception. I only care about getting the highest ranks on the highest difficulty in all these games without use of items or even getting touched. In that regard, it is harder to get SS rank on DMD in DMC3 than it is to get all Platinums in NSIC Bayonetta. We should be discussing that rather than talking about how hard the DMC3 difficulty is. The DMC3 difficulty is more cheap than hard, you realize this when you add in checkpoints to the game (free checkpoints not purchaseable/limited checkpoints) and the game becomes suddenly beatable by the vast majority of gamers and even game journalists. Most people give up on DMC3 because they usually don't have the patience, it's not really about the skill. If you have the patience to grind mission#1 over and over, the game becomes fairly easy. So please... let's not talk about skill in trying to beat normal modes in these games. We are not god damn journalists here complaining about not being able to beat Hell Vanguard on Mission#2.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Yeah, it's been proven time and time again human sized bosses are the best. Vergil, nelo angelo, credo, agni rudra, murai, even the best boss in dmc2 happened to be the despair embodied.
Tokubetsu
Member
I actually had a friend who couldn't beat the mission 2 mini boss. He was at my house around the time I reached A&R. He traded in the game not long after.
As far as general difficulty goes for DMC3, the hardest part for me (like Dahbomb kinda said) was the checkpoint system. I didn't mind losing to bosses but it can be really rough to lose 20ish minutes of a level to a boss pattern you hadn't caught yet.
As far as general difficulty goes for DMC3, the hardest part for me (like Dahbomb kinda said) was the checkpoint system. I didn't mind losing to bosses but it can be really rough to lose 20ish minutes of a level to a boss pattern you hadn't caught yet.
dark_chris
Member
I just finished the boss fight with
. That was one of the most entertaining boss battles I've had in a long time!
Bob
nailbombxx
Member
I must weigh in on this DMC3 vs. Bayonetta "debate".
Is there really any contest? They both are different games and have their own nuances that make them fantastic. Plus, they are from different generations.
IMO, Bayonetta nearly perfected what DMC3 laid down in terms of gameplay. I believe that Bayonetta was built from the ground up to play smoother, faster, and more spectacular than its predecessors. There are just so many ways that it polished and pushed the envelope for the DMC style gameplay. The most significant being improvement of the dodge mechanic, the introduction of dodge-offsetting, enhanced mobility, etc.
Of course, I think there is more that I think that Bayo does better than DMC3 than just combat. I think it has a better art style for the enemies and bosses.
There really is no reason to choose between either of them. They both are absolutely fantastic.
Is there really any contest? They both are different games and have their own nuances that make them fantastic. Plus, they are from different generations.
IMO, Bayonetta nearly perfected what DMC3 laid down in terms of gameplay. I believe that Bayonetta was built from the ground up to play smoother, faster, and more spectacular than its predecessors. There are just so many ways that it polished and pushed the envelope for the DMC style gameplay. The most significant being improvement of the dodge mechanic, the introduction of dodge-offsetting, enhanced mobility, etc.
Of course, I think there is more that I think that Bayo does better than DMC3 than just combat. I think it has a better art style for the enemies and bosses.
There really is no reason to choose between either of them. They both are absolutely fantastic.
Jathaine
Member
The only reason to choose is my reason... I just don't really like Bayonetta (the character). I played and marginally enjoyed the game.
The combat was excellent but everything else is a turn off and I simply do not even like looking at Bayonetta.
PC version where I could swap her out for someone... would be pretty nice.
The combat was excellent but everything else is a turn off and I simply do not even like looking at Bayonetta.
PC version where I could swap her out for someone... would be pretty nice.
This man is beyond salvation. Not surprising the 'spectacle' of Barbas wins him over over actually fleshed out mechanics.
Eh? I can really only speak for myself, but in no way is DMC3 more replayable than Bayonetta. Both are fantastic action games (though, I personally think Bayonetta is way above DMC3), but there are reasons why I played Bayonetta through three times in a row and still play it relatively often whereas I played DMC3 only once at first and have only returned to it here & there. Maybe it's because I don't quite have the skill to be able to play DMC3 at its highest level, yet Bayonetta is a bit easier and even a not godlike player can get a shitton out of its combat system, finding something new every time he or she goes through the game. Not to even mention that Bayonetta does the difficulty levels much better, at least from a learning curve POV (Normal with Witch Time all the time is the perfect first playthrough, Hard starts with harder enemy configurations and a bit more in the form of no Witch Time sequences/battles, then there's Climax that takes the training wheels (Witch Time) off and pretty much requires you master Dodge Offset if you don't want to make the game impossibly hard or at least much slower for yourself).
You can change her even in the console versions...
Jathaine
Member
After tedium such as getting plat on everything!
Yeah, considering my reason for not wanting to play the game, do you think I'd want to play it enough to unlock someone else?
Of course not.
I considered downloading a save with it already done but I never got around to it.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
This was the only direction this thread could take. "Fuck DmC, which is better, Bayo or DMC3" The 2012 version of 2005 GameFAQs "NGB vs DMC3" "Ninja Gaiden Black has actual AI!" "Yeah well DMC3 has weapon switching and not dial-a-combo, baby first action game" "yeah, have fun using those combos on all those chess pieces and boring shield enemies" etc
NGB > Bayo > DMC3
Riposte
Member
This is why I liked Anarchy Reigns so much.
That being said, big bosses can be a lot of fun, just not as much.
I still say it's an unfair comparison pitting Bayo against DMC3. It should be compared to DMC4.
But man those Gamefaqs action gaming debates were epic. I think the new thing for 2013 is going to be DmC vs MGR.
That Dude John
Member
I dunno. I know I loved it, but of the people that would care enough to talk at length about it, their reception of DmC seems to be lukewarm at best. That debate will happen, but will last all of two seconds.
And personally, I think it's kinda stupid to compare the two given the difference in styles, at least from what I got from MGR's demo.
There's a cheat code to unlock the other characters.
Agreed. Rising is about efficiency whereas DmC is still about styling, almost opposite in their focus. The debate is inevitable but it won't be a good one or a particularly long one.
call_kotaku
Member
Even this guy uses DT to deal with Rages. :lol
Cool play, his kablooey stacking is awesome as usual.
Hm. My 360 HDD died.
Which is funny, because I just did a replay of Bayonetta from scratch, and JUST unlocked Angel Slayer chapter.....
Welp. by the time the replacement comes, I will have
-Vergil DLC (Hopefully)
-Bloody Palace DLC (hopefully)
-Bayonetta playthrough (AGAIN, damn it)
-Metal Gear Rising....
jesus christ, this genre. And I am not even sad because of losing my Bayonetta saves. Although that all SSS nephilim stuff frustrates me a little, because I surely wont go through Nephilim difficulty again.
Which is funny, because I just did a replay of Bayonetta from scratch, and JUST unlocked Angel Slayer chapter.....
Welp. by the time the replacement comes, I will have
-Vergil DLC (Hopefully)
-Bloody Palace DLC (hopefully)
-Bayonetta playthrough (AGAIN, damn it)
-Metal Gear Rising....
jesus christ, this genre. And I am not even sad because of losing my Bayonetta saves. Although that all SSS nephilim stuff frustrates me a little, because I surely wont go through Nephilim difficulty again.
fi1ip
Member
This guy should be hired by Capcom or Ninja Theory.
I need to start using that angel dodge, I wish I could just replace the normal dodge with it. Too much buttons!
toastyToast
Member
wtf is that superman shit?
Can someone enlighten me?
Can someone enlighten me?
That Dude John
Member
I'd be down for a flight section in DmC2 if they could make it work. With the focus on aerial combat in DmC, I'm actually quite surprised there wasn't a free-fall section, either in cutscene or in game. I thought it was mandatory by this point. Even Asura's Wrath had a boss fight going down the side of a large tower. And it was awesome.
Heck, I'm still salty about going through a whole playthrough without knowing you could angel dodge from a demon dodge.
Heck, I'm still salty about going through a whole playthrough without knowing you could angel dodge from a demon dodge.
Realtalk, fighting a pair of Rages - especially color coded - is more challenging than any of the game's bosses.
Dante is able to use the Angel glide indefinitely and flies like Superman. Allows for faster mission runs.
I have done it a few times but don't know the exact inputs. This has been known since the demo days by the way.
DMC3 vs. Bayo is an interesting discussion. You have arguably still the best action game ever made 8 years ago vs. the current generation "evolved" title. Which one is better is really up to the player.
Accessibility is the biggest difference between the titles. One rewards, one punishes. In that respect DMC3 always feels more like an older Capcom fighter. If you drop you link, you pay a BIG price. Often the game resorts to cheap tactics, much like the difficult brawlers of old. Bayo on the other hand is much more modernized. It's more free-form, open, and just way way easier. The first time I played Bayo I beat both normal and hard in a little over 10 hours combined. I even watched the cut-scenes and didn't speed through it. The enemies are more forgiving, it's less pattern + punish, and you are given many tools for survival. The more RPG feel also emphasizes survivability as opposed to DMC3 which is basically, you aren't going to survive unless you are on the ball.
The other major difference is weapons. DMC3 weapons had a personality, almost literally via the bosses. They all felt unique, were effective, and so balanced I sometimes can't believe it. Not to mention that Nevan is still an absolute gem of action game weapon design, even if it is a cliche' idea. Bayo branched out to have more changed skin type weapons and none of them had a personality. I basically just stuck with a few combinations cause I just wasn't seeing a difference. DMC3 trumps Bayo with its weapons.
Then you have the move list and effective balance. In DMC3 you didn't have a "massive" array of moves at your disposal. Also, they were all wrapped up in style and weapon choice. So you would pick your poison, like picking an FG character, and did what you could. The balance again was impeccable. Bayo opened things up and nothing was really tied tightly to the game features. However, it also had absolutely putrid combo balance. The brilliance of DMC3 was reward for style and diversity. In Bayo you could witch time and just spam to hair finishers.
The above leads me to my next point which is combat reward. DMC3 requires chance to really succeed. Pull just inputs on RG against Vergil is no easy task. However, what is the result? Absolute destruction. Is this available in Bayo? Kind of. It's limited to difficulty scaling and not as impacting. Plus witch time is a joke with triple dodge. You might as well just map it to a button with the telegraphs. The style or combat rewards in Bayo were meaningless though. People think DMC3 combo videos only demonstrate style but they actually show how to "wreck the fuck out of the game." You think enemy step cancels with killer bee's don't obliterate? Now look at Bayo. Why should I use flash and pizazz when I can wreck with ground based attacks? For fun? Sure. But that's not good balance. All of that effort should net something beyond flash. Flash is for broken combos in Marvel titles, not for the trinity.
So Bayo is seriously depleted in difficulty balance, weapon design/implementation, move/combo balance, and finally combat reward. So it sucks. lol J/K. Well the QTE and cut-scenes do. In all seriousness, Bayo is also brilliant in ways. Dodge offset is just a great feature. It enables a new dynamic in combat diversity and really making players feel like they are wrecking shit. While I would rather have the actual combat engine tuned up then figure out a way to string out somewhat monotonous strings, it is still really well done.
Bayo also is amazing with its forms. It adds a huge dynamic to space control and positional combat. The panther form especially opened things up for me, including making some platforming less painful. I absolutely wish DMC had something similar but it really doesn't. Trickster is the combat implementation of advanced space control but it's not the same as the environmental type control with the Bayo forms.
Whew. Now there is more to compare. The bosses? DMC3 wins. I will not entertain opposing views here. Platforming? Easily Bayo by a country mile, especially with the forms. RPG system? Bayo just for the expansion of it and for using most of what made DMC3 best. The list goes on but there are just trade-offs all over.
So the checklist:
To state my opinion, DMC3 is vastly the better title. Bayo "lacks" more then what you "wish for" with DMC3. I don't find myself dying for DMC4 or Bayo features when playing DMC3. Yet, I die for DMC3 when playing both those titles. DMC4 just lacks many areas I'm not talking necessarily about here that DMC3 covers and Bayo just falters a lot from a design standpoint. Simple things like less backtracking can't save a broken combo system. Better graphics can't compensate for re-skinned monotonous weaponry. Even dodge offset and forms can't make up for such poor combat reward. It is part of the trinity, a major success, but it still doesn't measure up to the game that just had a development team in the right state of mind.
DMC3 is a classic. It may be beaten through some opinions but it won't change how it is still fantastic today. There is no nostalgia here people. Go play it.
Accessibility is the biggest difference between the titles. One rewards, one punishes. In that respect DMC3 always feels more like an older Capcom fighter. If you drop you link, you pay a BIG price. Often the game resorts to cheap tactics, much like the difficult brawlers of old. Bayo on the other hand is much more modernized. It's more free-form, open, and just way way easier. The first time I played Bayo I beat both normal and hard in a little over 10 hours combined. I even watched the cut-scenes and didn't speed through it. The enemies are more forgiving, it's less pattern + punish, and you are given many tools for survival. The more RPG feel also emphasizes survivability as opposed to DMC3 which is basically, you aren't going to survive unless you are on the ball.
The other major difference is weapons. DMC3 weapons had a personality, almost literally via the bosses. They all felt unique, were effective, and so balanced I sometimes can't believe it. Not to mention that Nevan is still an absolute gem of action game weapon design, even if it is a cliche' idea. Bayo branched out to have more changed skin type weapons and none of them had a personality. I basically just stuck with a few combinations cause I just wasn't seeing a difference. DMC3 trumps Bayo with its weapons.
Then you have the move list and effective balance. In DMC3 you didn't have a "massive" array of moves at your disposal. Also, they were all wrapped up in style and weapon choice. So you would pick your poison, like picking an FG character, and did what you could. The balance again was impeccable. Bayo opened things up and nothing was really tied tightly to the game features. However, it also had absolutely putrid combo balance. The brilliance of DMC3 was reward for style and diversity. In Bayo you could witch time and just spam to hair finishers.
The above leads me to my next point which is combat reward. DMC3 requires chance to really succeed. Pull just inputs on RG against Vergil is no easy task. However, what is the result? Absolute destruction. Is this available in Bayo? Kind of. It's limited to difficulty scaling and not as impacting. Plus witch time is a joke with triple dodge. You might as well just map it to a button with the telegraphs. The style or combat rewards in Bayo were meaningless though. People think DMC3 combo videos only demonstrate style but they actually show how to "wreck the fuck out of the game." You think enemy step cancels with killer bee's don't obliterate? Now look at Bayo. Why should I use flash and pizazz when I can wreck with ground based attacks? For fun? Sure. But that's not good balance. All of that effort should net something beyond flash. Flash is for broken combos in Marvel titles, not for the trinity.
So Bayo is seriously depleted in difficulty balance, weapon design/implementation, move/combo balance, and finally combat reward. So it sucks. lol J/K. Well the QTE and cut-scenes do.
In all seriousness, Bayo is also brilliant in ways. Dodge offset is just a great feature. It enables a new dynamic in combat diversity and really making players feel like they are wrecking shit. While I would rather have the actual combat engine tuned up then figure out a way to string out somewhat monotonous strings, it is still really well done.Bayo also is amazing with its forms. It adds a huge dynamic to space control and positional combat. The panther form especially opened things up for me, including making some platforming less painful. I absolutely wish DMC had something similar but it really doesn't. Trickster is the combat implementation of advanced space control but it's not the same as the environmental type control with the Bayo forms.
Whew. Now there is more to compare. The bosses? DMC3 wins. I will not entertain opposing views here.
Platforming? Easily Bayo by a country mile, especially with the forms. RPG system? Bayo just for the expansion of it and for using most of what made DMC3 best. The list goes on but there are just trade-offs all over.So the checklist:
- Accessibility
- Weapon Design/Implementation
- Move list/balance
- Combat Reward
- Environmental/Space control
To state my opinion, DMC3 is vastly the better title. Bayo "lacks" more then what you "wish for" with DMC3. I don't find myself dying for DMC4 or Bayo features when playing DMC3. Yet, I die for DMC3 when playing both those titles. DMC4 just lacks many areas I'm not talking necessarily about here that DMC3 covers and Bayo just falters a lot from a design standpoint. Simple things like less backtracking can't save a broken combo system. Better graphics can't compensate for re-skinned monotonous weaponry. Even dodge offset and forms can't make up for such poor combat reward. It is part of the trinity, a major success, but it still doesn't measure up to the game that just had a development team in the right state of mind.
DMC3 is a classic. It may be beaten through some opinions but it won't change how it is still fantastic today. There is no nostalgia here people. Go play it.
I need to pick up DMC HD collection. I enjoyed the hell out of DmC and Bayonetta, beat DMC1, but never really got around to DMC3. I have the special edition and everything, I just never played it.
I did play it. I died. A lot. Only made it to the second mission before I took a break and never got back to it. : (
AcceptableGhost
Member
Great post. What do you think of DMC4 vs. Bayo?
We talked about this at some other point and I still disagree with this assessment. All of Bayonettas weapons had the unique functions. Not to the difference in degree that as DMC3 or NG weapons have between them where there is literally no overlap at all, but I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. It just means that you have to bring out each weapons uniqueness rather than having it be apparent to you. But that doesn't take away from the fact that they are separate. Everything else you said, even if I don't agree with it, I can see where your coming from. Here? U cray.
Agreed. I still have trouble timing my dodges against Rages. Usually just DT to get those encounters over with asap.
Probably someone here already said it, but that Virility factory sure takes its inspirations from Futurama (or does that also take inspirations from somewhere else?).
Finished today, the game has a lot of charming moments but is a bit too linear and short if you are not obsessed with getting everything.
In regards to the Dante design I think it worked and the model looks very good (especially in the very beginning...). Overall it was an interesting new direction, although I preferred the Gothic scenery of past titles.
Finished today, the game has a lot of charming moments but is a bit too linear and short if you are not obsessed with getting everything.
In regards to the Dante design I think it worked and the model looks very good (especially in the very beginning...). Overall it was an interesting new direction, although I preferred the Gothic scenery of past titles.
Well Fry and the Slurm Factory was obviously a send up of Willy Wonka/Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but it's pretty aparent that Virility is supposed to be a send up/homage of the Slurm Factory episode.
My gripe is that the demon is labeled a succubus. How would that even work?
That Dude John
Member
The less we think about that, the better.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll