How do you cancel Kablooey shots like that?
Color coded Rages combined with a witch is probably the toughest thing this game has to offer.
DMC4 is better due to the combat engine. Bayo is a better title for gamers. Both are really subject to big flaws but enjoyment comes down to what you like about action games.
It's hardly crazy. Weapon uniqueness isn't just about function, it's about depth. And the funny thing is that I'm not even bringing in the fire/devilarms vs. Bayo arsenal. The depth of Artemis itself can swallow up most of those Bayo skins. Every Bayo weapon is either a variation or one that encompasses a known feature. Like you need this weapon for charges, this one to pack a bunch, this one for range, etc... You might say that DMC3 is the same but that is far from the truth. Mainly because DMC3 just has breadth.
This isn't exactly true. The whole game is balanced around the longer/shorter strings plus dodge offset. Because enemies are more aggressive they will usually interrupt your string. That's where Dodge Offset comes in. Plus all the various strings are balanced by how long they are ie. longer combos have a bigger pay off at the end. You need Dodge Offset to be able to use the longer strings in actual combat without being interrupted if you want to effectively. This is a novel idea and it's why NG fails where Bayonetta succeeds. You can play safe with shorter strings YXY or go for the bigger pay off in longer strings incorporating Dodge Offset into your game. Also you add in aerial combos, gun combat, different forms, weapon swap which all ties the combat together very well.
DMC3 vs. Bayo is an interesting discussion. You have arguably still the best action game ever made 8 years ago vs. the current generation "evolved" title. Which one is better is really up to the player.
Accessibility is the biggest difference between the titles. One rewards, one punishes. In that respect DMC3 always feels more like an older Capcom fighter. If you drop you link, you pay a BIG price. Often the game resorts to cheap tactics, much like the difficult brawlers of old. Bayo on the other hand is much more modernized. It's more free-form, open, and just way way easier. The first time I played Bayo I beat both normal and hard in a little over 10 hours combined. I even watched the cut-scenes and didn't speed through it. The enemies are more forgiving, it's less pattern + punish, and you are given many tools for survival. The more RPG feel also emphasizes survivability as opposed to DMC3 which is basically, you aren't going to survive unless you are on the ball.
The other major difference is weapons. DMC3 weapons had a personality, almost literally via the bosses. They all felt unique, were effective, and so balanced I sometimes can't believe it. Not to mention that Nevan is still an absolute gem of action game weapon design, even if it is a cliche' idea. Bayo branched out to have more changed skin type weapons and none of them had a personality. I basically just stuck with a few combinations cause I just wasn't seeing a difference. DMC3 trumps Bayo with its weapons.
Then you have the move list and effective balance. In DMC3 you didn't have a "massive" array of moves at your disposal. Also, they were all wrapped up in style and weapon choice. So you would pick your poison, like picking an FG character, and did what you could. The balance again was impeccable. Bayo opened things up and nothing was really tied tightly to the game features. However, it also had absolutely putrid combo balance. The brilliance of DMC3 was reward for style and diversity. In Bayo you could witch time and just spam to hair finishers.
The above leads me to my next point which is combat reward. DMC3 requires chance to really succeed. Pull just inputs on RG against Vergil is no easy task. However, what is the result? Absolute destruction. Is this available in Bayo? Kind of. It's limited to difficulty scaling and not as impacting. Plus witch time is a joke with triple dodge. You might as well just map it to a button with the telegraphs. The style or combat rewards in Bayo were meaningless though. People think DMC3 combo videos only demonstrate style but they actually show how to "wreck the fuck out of the game." You think enemy step cancels with killer bee's don't obliterate? Now look at Bayo. Why should I use flash and pizazz when I can wreck with ground based attacks? For fun? Sure. But that's not good balance. All of that effort should net something beyond flash. Flash is for broken combos in Marvel titles, not for the trinity.
So Bayo is seriously depleted in difficulty balance, weapon design/implementation, move/combo balance, and finally combat reward. So it sucks. lol J/K. Well the QTE and cut-scenes do.
Bayo also is amazing with its forms. It adds a huge dynamic to space control and positional combat. The panther form especially opened things up for me, including making some platforming less painful. I absolutely wish DMC had something similar but it really doesn't. Trickster is the combat implementation of advanced space control but it's not the same as the environmental type control with the Bayo forms.
Whew. Now there is more to compare. The bosses? DMC3 wins. I will not entertain opposing views here.
So the checklist:
- Accessibility
- Weapon Design/Implementation
- Move list/balance
- Combat Reward
- Environmental/Space control
To state my opinion, DMC3 is vastly the better title. Bayo "lacks" more then what you "wish for" with DMC3. I don't find myself dying for DMC4 or Bayo features when playing DMC3. Yet, I die for DMC3 when playing both those titles. DMC4 just lacks many areas I'm not talking necessarily about here that DMC3 covers and Bayo just falters a lot from a design standpoint. Simple things like less backtracking can't save a broken combo system. Better graphics can't compensate for re-skinned monotonous weaponry. Even dodge offset and forms can't make up for such poor combat reward. It is part of the trinity, a major success, but it still doesn't measure up to the game that just had a development team in the right state of mind.
DMC3 is a classic. It may be beaten through some opinions but it won't change how it is still fantastic today. There is no nostalgia here people. Go play it.
Which is all a wash except on climax. We both know that the game is an easy chore with witch time. So what I said stands. And what you are praising is more dodge offset then countering my point about combo balance. The fundamentals of Bayo are still inferior even if you open things up with the offset. It becomes more of an AI game, which while more aggressive, doesn't hark home as being demonstrative.
I don't have the time to read the entire discussion chain but yes DMC3 enemies suck. Yet I think most of Bayo bosses suck. Where is the tension of the Vergil fight or the sheer cheapness of A&R? Bayo went more Zelda with its fights and really harks back to some of the worst fights in action game's past (thanks for the trash Mundus). The enemies though, I will give to you without a fight. But I'd rather beat up on scrubs with a damn fine combat system then use some paper shredding move list to rough up some golden aggressive babies. It's a trade-off but I'd rather "my" setup be superior, not the AI. I can make my own gameplay from that.
I know enough about Bayo. It just doesn't warrant such a tear-down like other titles. And weapon synergy to me isn't just about swap tactics.
I cheaped her out. So I probably screwed up my experience. But I'll give that to you. Still, the overuse of Zelda bosses really screwed up my enjoyment of the fights.
My bad but I haven't. I'm planning on grabbing the PC version but I haven't been home as of late. Nor have much time to play. Shit happens. It is on my list though and I won't hang around here too much as to avoid crapping the thread.
It's called combat reward. You should be rewarded with effectiveness for risk. You shouldn't be "forced" you should be "enticed." Bayo just gives you a palette and asks you to illustrate. It's great for some, not for others.
Why? Because of the quantity? Many weapons are borderline re-skins and nothing really changes your method of play drastically. I'm still waiting on the "magic" people see with these weapons. I used them, I get them, but I discarded them as not being impacting to my play-through. And I look for these things. Do I have to read an FAQ to get appreciation? Maybe I have play it again and again? You shouldn't have to search for depth. The developers should present it. I'm not seeing it and I haven't heard anyone with an argument to show it.
How much do I have to play a title I don't like a lot? I'm not going to sink 500 hours into Bayo to post on a forum. I beat it on all difficulties, didn't use items, played with everything I could find, etc... DMC3 makes weapon diversity apparent the third mission with Cerb. Shit I could even argue the shotgun in M2 sets pace. Bayo instead evolves it's weapons with moderate variations.
- quite different. There, especially in the case of DMC3, the style is a rough equivalent to Bayonetta's basic tools, but everything else is really derived from the weapons. Your limitations, your options, your space control, your damage, your defenses* (styles affect this greatly, obviously. The moment I learned how to parry boss attacks...damn it, Royal Guard), all of that. It is as if Kamiya himself set out to show this genre from an entirely different perspective. Another different perspective would be if he set out to do a Chaos Legion-style game, but I am not sure if that will ever happen. That would be the worldview of a skilled general, who knows how to fight, but would rather use tools for that purpose //It has enemy step and jump cancel, it just looks a bit different.
Why the hell do you keep saying this?
Because its been known since the demo?
Where have you been sir?! Been MIA for quite a while everywhere. Great post though.
My bad but I haven't. I'm planning on grabbing the PC version but I haven't been home as of late. Nor have much time to play. Shit happens. It is on my list though and I won't hang around here too much as to avoid crapping the thread.
I will update once I have.