Well it's not that obtuse. It's two buttons.
I don't think Bayonetta is very good but it just seems like a weird thing to complain about.
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DmC |OT| No, F*ck You!
- Thread starter Goon Boon
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I don't think Bayonetta is very good but it just seems like a weird thing to complain about.
It's in the manual.
I remember seeing it in game somewhere too but that could be my mind playing tricks on me. I've known about it forever though and it's been a long ass time since i finished bayonetta. And it shows the quality of the game when people's only complaint is the lack of an easy cutscene skip.
Bayo shits on DMC3 from a great height. Every style from that game in Bayo in one way or another and executed way better without the obnoxious levelling or switching in the shop. DMC3 doesn't get close.
I remember seeing it in game somewhere too but that could be my mind playing tricks on me. I've known about it forever though and it's been a long ass time since i finished bayonetta. And it shows the quality of the game when people's only complaint is the lack of an easy cutscene skip.
Bayo shits on DMC3 from a great height. Every style from that game in Bayo in one way or another and executed way better without the obnoxious levelling or switching in the shop. DMC3 doesn't get close.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Sure, two buttons itself isn't obtuse. But there is nothing - in a natural way - when I approach a game to consider the notion that I'd need to press two buttons (a shoulder and a face) in conjunction for no apparent reason to skip a cutscene. That concept is random as shit.
Anyway, how we started talking about bayonetta's cutscene mechanic is odd to begin with...so
...want a replayable action game? Go to DMC3. Doesn't get better than that. End of story.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Then you need to look harder. I’ve seen plenty of people go off about the QTEs, enemy attacks at the end of scenes, and having to press multiple buttons to skip. Just about everyone complains about the vehicle sections.KevinCow said:
Here’s the issue with you being insulting and saying hypocrisy is afoot; you’re assuming Bayonetta’s replay problems are as severe as DmC’s or even all the same(actually, people doing this in general is a pretty annoying problem on gaf as of late):
-Loading Screens: Not only are they more frequent in DMC, they feel a lot longer. Hell, they are a lot longer. They try to mask it with cutscenes, but all this means is that you have to wait during a cutscene before skipping it(unless it’s an unskippable one, in which case, lol). Even on the occasion where this does occur in Bayonetta, the player is allowed to fool around with practice mode while the game is doing its thing(there are specific moments where you get a loading screen without the ability to practice, but they are mercifully short). I thought the loading screens in DmC would be the same, but it turns out the game just shows you footage of someone else playing the game.
You seem to concentrate your issues with Bayonetta’s cutscene skip on having to press more buttons, when the issues everyone else is complaining about with DmC is having to wait, like, forevers. One can easily hit 5 things on a controller in a few seconds. One cannot speed up a half-a-minute loading screen/unskippable cutscene/series of loading screens.
-Traversal: Platforming is about the same in both games the first time through. Extremely easy, but good for pacing out the other parts of the game. Main difference is that by the time you’re replaying Bayonetta you’ve already got Beast Within and can access Crow Within, which makes these sections(and moving through levels in general) much quicker and less of a drag. In DmC, you can only do something similar-ish in the parts before mission 3. Everything afterwards is the same stuff you did the first time through at the same pace, only now with the added plus of being boringly familiar.
-Game Itself: As Papercuts pointed out earlier, Bayonetta has much greater payoff for having to endure its annoyances. I mean, who the hell wants to wait for Poison or Mundus.
And that’s not to say Bayonetta doesn’t have issues on this front, but it ain’t all that hard to argue DmC’s got it worse.
Chapter select is available immediately:KevinCow said:
Hit the Submenu button.It’s actually more convenient than DmC’s, since you don’t have to exit out of the Chapter Menu just to get to chapter select, which is a pretty derpy UI choice on its own, but then there’s the that loading screen when exiting out of the Mission Menu.
True.KevinCow said:
Bayonetta does this exact thing.KevinCow said:
I can agree with this, though Bayonetta does at least allow you to try before you but.KevinCow said:
That said, DMC4 has both games beat; allowing refunds on Abilities and actually giving them different costs to incentivize getting the weaker, though less costly abilities. Why would I ever buy Death Coil 2/Leap/ Streak when I can go straight for Demon Dodge 2/Overdrive 2 and start wrecking everything ever immediately?
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
He's posting about a Bayonetta playthrough in the DmC thread .
All while repeatedly accusing people of being hypocrites for complaining about DmC being bad for repeat playthroughs by citing issues with Bayonetta in the same regard.
Issues that aren't really issues at all and could have been cleared with only a few moments of fact checking.
I think it's pretty clear what he's doing and it's annoying.
but hey if you want to entertain that shit don't let me stop you. I've personally got no patience for that kind of thread derailing myself though
DMC3 more replay-friendly than Bayonetta? No thanks, I would rather run through everything as a panther. Even if it means memorizing a cutscene QTE or two 
Also: what is up with 2 button cutscene skipping? Is it obtuse? Is it weird? Who the hell cares about it? Once you learn it, it is there, and it is convenient.
Or should we hold grudges forever if something is not immediately obvious, but becomes second nature in a matter of seconds? Why?
Also: what is up with 2 button cutscene skipping? Is it obtuse? Is it weird? Who the hell cares about it? Once you learn it, it is there, and it is convenient.
Or should we hold grudges forever if something is not immediately obvious, but becomes second nature in a matter of seconds? Why?
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Yes. Glad you're catching on.
Can you explain what makes DMC3 so much more replayable in your eyes? I think between NG, NG2, Bayo, DMC3 and DMC4, each game is very complex and has it's own style that allow people to decide which is the best by preference. But in sheer replayability, I think Bayonetta has them all beat because there is so much content to get and things to do after the main campaign is done. Extra weapons, it's own bloody palace(which has it's own boss that's not available in story mode), costumes, different characters, etc. DMC3 is very good in this too, but there just seems more stuff to get in Bayonetta. So what do you mean when you think DMC3 has the most replayability out of all of them?
Nothing really because it's a sacred cow. Unless you really like it's decent boss fights and braindead fodder enemies bayonetta has it beat like 20 times over in terms of content, weapons and stage design... but whatever it has a space harrier level so I guess it's the worst game ever.
Because they don't have a real reason for why they dislike the game, and instead have to rely on things like this to make their words seem credible.
This thread escalated fast.
DMC3 is a godly action game for its time but its not at Bayo's level. Bayo features superior enemies and a more integrated system than DMC3 which is now the standard of the genre as we have more tech to work with. DMC will and should never go back to having styles separated like that again or at least give you the option to play 4-5 at once which is standard. Plus DMC3s level design does not match up to Bayo's either, people forget that 1/3rd of the game is essentially a retread.
The Bayo cutscene issue is a non issue, if you are playing for a second time you should have that info already or at least you can figure it out by mashing buttons on your controller (that's how I figured it out). DmC having unskippable camera ripping out sequences IS a problem. Bayo is a highly replayable action game especially with the game split into verses and you are ranked on shorter segments (much better to improve on smaller segments). DmC is very replayable too but the cutscene stuff do hold it back a bit.
LHK being LHK now. Anything that goes against his opinion is going to get dismissed.
DMC3 is a godly action game for its time but its not at Bayo's level. Bayo features superior enemies and a more integrated system than DMC3 which is now the standard of the genre as we have more tech to work with. DMC will and should never go back to having styles separated like that again or at least give you the option to play 4-5 at once which is standard. Plus DMC3s level design does not match up to Bayo's either, people forget that 1/3rd of the game is essentially a retread.
The Bayo cutscene issue is a non issue, if you are playing for a second time you should have that info already or at least you can figure it out by mashing buttons on your controller (that's how I figured it out). DmC having unskippable camera ripping out sequences IS a problem. Bayo is a highly replayable action game especially with the game split into verses and you are ranked on shorter segments (much better to improve on smaller segments). DmC is very replayable too but the cutscene stuff do hold it back a bit.
LHK being LHK now. Anything that goes against his opinion is going to get dismissed.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Well, we're mostly talking about "ease" of replayability first off. Let's make that clear. As it was presented in the context of this thread in the past few pages, we started talking about some of the issues DmC has in replaying it due to some of the mid-mission cutscenes. This isn't about derpy unlockable bullshit like costumes.
DMC3 is - completely - front to end, purely designed on skill based action. There are next to no platforming segments, not many fetch quests (and those missions that do have it, generally are filled with combat sequences which what the game is about). The cutscenes really only exist at the start and end of sequences. There are no useless genre breaking sequences that permeate for long periods in DMC3. Whereas there are multiple segments in Bayonetta. There is also no need to engage and watch some silly hair monster cutscene devour every other enemy you kill via a QTE prompt. There is also no get out of jail free card super awesome slow-mo witch time scape goat in DMC3 which also slows the pacing in Bayonetta. This is alleviated though when Witch-Time is disabled, which is how the game is meant to be played. The pacing of combat in DMC3 is entirely accelerated, with absolutely nothing to slow it down, other than a few odd instances of a puzzle (i.e, hit the chandelier looking thing to release the key, or slash the mirror to kill an enemy).
You can make an argument that the chest piece sequence is out of place, but even that is designed for accelerated replay as you can just go after the king when appropriate and kill them all instantly.
Now, this is all about pacing and ease and efficiency of replay. The next concept is the realization that DMC3 is the better skill based action game. There is really nothing better than DMC3 from a pure skill based action standpoint.
*I've noticed people also harping on DMC3's concept of having to choose 4 weapons at once and a particular style, only being able to switch at divinity statues. Obviously, this is - simply by nature that DMC3 lacked the technical level that Bayonetta had as a next-generation game. Keep in mind it was a 2005 PS2 release.
But that goes beyond the point, what makes a quality action game isn't the sheer amount of - essentially - useless bullshit which constitutes "weapon counts" or "combo counts." It's the same reason why DMC1 is still such a superb action game despite having such a limited weapon set. It's the design of the weapons and their use-ability in context with the opposition present, the enemies and bosses. DMC1 still captures that element of learning enemy behavior with the reward of critical hits like no other. So this concept of DMC3 having a limited weapon selection due to hardware limitations is a non factor for me. For instance, Ninja Gaiden 2 has a more fleshed out moveset and weapon concept than Ninja Gaiden Black. But what's the better NG installment...
And lastly - the concept of "better level design" -- the fuck is this shit? It is even made more useless of an argument when we're talking about replayability. Level design holds it's strongest impact on first time play throughs, in an action game - where combat is clearly the most important concept, the appeal of a "level" is drastically reduced on replays because you know what you are going to see, and you know where you are going. The same can be said about level backtracking, it's not a big issue when you know where to go and what to do - and when it comes to a hardcore action game fan - the ultimate goal is to improve score, skill and engage in the next encounter and improve rank. It's almost as useless of an argument talking point like mentioning how "story" in action game effects replayability. Non issue.
EDIT** I also forget to mention that DMC3 has a boss rush mission select. Allowing you to replay the game purely through it's fantastic boss encounters, by simply selecting that boss rush mission in the menu.
Gunbo13 wrote a write up comparing the two, I almost feel since I couldn't do a better job of saying better than he did, I shouldn't even bother and leave it a this. I'll just let his stand and you can use that as a reference point. Wish I could hunt it down, if I can locate his post history I could find it. I don't know if his opinions have changed since then, but from a purely 'combat' breakdown I couldn't agree more.
PS: Just so we're clear, I recognize that Bayonetta is a fun action game. I certainly had a few kicks completing it at it's highest difficulty.
I am going to replay DMC3 this week, but I think your being a bit too harsh on it from what I remember. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that both Bayo and DMC4 take what DMC3 has and escalate it to a bigger level, but the same way that DMC1 is still a damn fine action game despite so many things being outdated about it, I'm pretty sure DMC3 is still going to be a blast to playthrough as well.
I don't think that has anything to do with replayability. It's just a more purist mission design and I guess it makes it easier to replay for those that just want the action. But it's not an incentive to replay, which is what I mean when I talk about replayability. By this same logic, if you happened to absolutely love all the platforming of DmC and wanted to go through it again and again just as much as you want to fight the enemies, the DmC is just as replayable as DMC3.
LHK talking like someone who hasn't beaten Bayo on its highest difficulty. Because Witch Time isn't as powerful later on.
As far as I am concerned DTE is considerably more broke in DMC3 than witch time.
And in terms of "pure skill based combat" DMC4 is the highest in that regard because of its skill ceiling. DMC3 does not come close to that ceiling and neither does Bayonetta. But as far as skill requirement to beat at highest difficulty level and also get top tanks, that goes to the Ninja Gaiden game. It is much easier to Platinum/SS rank than it is to even beat MNM not to mention the various Mission modes.
As far as I am concerned DTE is considerably more broke in DMC3 than witch time.
And in terms of "pure skill based combat" DMC4 is the highest in that regard because of its skill ceiling. DMC3 does not come close to that ceiling and neither does Bayonetta. But as far as skill requirement to beat at highest difficulty level and also get top tanks, that goes to the Ninja Gaiden game. It is much easier to Platinum/SS rank than it is to even beat MNM not to mention the various Mission modes.
? I complain about the cutscenes all the time for bayonetta, they especially ruined my first playthrough, and I enjoy the pacing in DmC more so than bayo on my first playthrough, and people also complain about the space harrier shit all the time since it's before a certain boss fight and treat it accordingly like it's a crime against humanity.
They both suck but DmC's cutscenes+running down a corridor was more intrusive since some stuff aren't skippable and they happen rather frequently, and there are some with loading, then there are the platforming sections added to it. Also bosses dialogues are not skippable, it's really a bad mix of all of those elements together. Take the last boss for example you need to skip a scene every few hits, compare to bayonetta where each "stage" of the boss are much longer and I think there were around 3 of them that changes scenery, they also have checkpoints with each stage.
For the shop loading, yea, especially on the ps3, it's a chore to enter that place, but at least they don't force you to use/watch it.
People are just merely discussing the negative/positive aspects and how it does/doesn't work is all.
I would be the first to be complaining about the shit bayo port on ps3.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Incorrect. Read my post again. I specifically talk about the applications of Witch Time and how the game immensely improves when you disable it, even on the higher difficulty settings.
I'm inclined to disagree.
DMC3 - to this day - and probably forever in the future of the action game genre, will be the highest demand for immediate demonstration and application of "SKILL" out of the box.
The experience of quickly adapting to combat scenarios not just from an intelligence perspective - i.e, reading and analyzing boss behavior and movement, but also the sheer requirement of honest to goodness reflex and control mastery is at it's peak in DMC3.
Let's not forget how quickly DMC3 reminded people what real skill requirement is when we all first played it in 2005 on mission 3.
What you are referring to Dahbomb, is depth and the skill required to utilize that depth. Which would be DMC4's Dante. But any kind of mastery of any mechanic in DMC4, isn't really required. Not even on DMD. A cursory understanding of it's basic mechanics is enough to get you by in DMC4. Yes, as you can tell - I'm really referring to DMC4's neutered challenge.
But the actual skill required to overcome the game's various challenges, is most prominent in DMC3, if one were to attempt to complete the game. Remind you I'm talking about vanilla NA DMC3.
EDIT: I'd also, like to reiterate the concept that I think Bayonetta is a fine action game, don't get me wrong. But let's be claer about this : from a combat perspective in regards to skill application, ease of replay - > I'd have to go with DMC3. Also, nothing beats some of the boss fights in DMC3. Nothing. And there are no break-points or QTE's in them, either - there is no fluff. Vergil fight #3, Angi and Rudra... get the fuck out of here. Those boss fights should be formed into a developers design doc. on how to make a fucking boss fight. Only the Murai fight (despite some apparent abusive concepts) in NG: Black gets close.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
dp
So why did you even bring it up in the first place? It's a mechanic that trains you into dodging properly for higher levels. I wished DmC removed Demon dodge on higher difficulties.
This whole argument started comparing DmC/Bayo replayability then shifted to Bayo vs DMC3. The latter isn't even a fair comparison, we are comparing games of two different generations. As far as replayability between DmC and Bayo goes, Bayo is way better designed for replay. I know this because at least in Bayo they didn't forget to scale bosses on the hardest difficulty.
So now you are talking about skill requirement to beat the games on normal? The only reason why DMC3 was so hard was because of the checkpoint system
Riposte
Member
Bayonetta's greatest flaw is a common one: You have to unlock the higher difficulties. IIRC this is true for all the DMCs. It is such a flawed way in thinking: The game gets better the more your complete an inferior version if it. The types of locked difficulty which make sense to me are ones like DMC4's Hell and Hell mode or Dark Knight mode or w/e on PC. Anyway, I recall KevinCow getting his ass kicked on the Normal difficulty, so... not relevant.
I'm trying to remember attacks upon exiting a cutscene that were hard to dodge. Usually you could tell when you were going to be attacked and the same audio/visual cues were there. I actually like that aspect of the game.
The platforming in DmC is not completely boring, but it is something I wouldn't want to again ever. What was completely boring and what puts me off on playing the game again are the moments where you walk through a whole level and do nothing.
EDIT: Anarchy Reigns would have been way less fun if they locked Hard (right now it is my favorite game of the year, out of the two I've played lol). Game really needed it. Given I didn't need to unlock a difficulty on Vanquish (which has a neat trick on the title screen) and Anarchy Reigns... this gives me hope for TW101 and Bayo 2. Then again maybe Kamiya likes his locked difficulties...
EDIT: Wait... I think the "Revengeance" difficulty is locked in MGR. FUCKKK
I'm trying to remember attacks upon exiting a cutscene that were hard to dodge. Usually you could tell when you were going to be attacked and the same audio/visual cues were there. I actually like that aspect of the game.
The platforming in DmC is not completely boring, but it is something I wouldn't want to again ever. What was completely boring and what puts me off on playing the game again are the moments where you walk through a whole level and do nothing.
EDIT: Anarchy Reigns would have been way less fun if they locked Hard (right now it is my favorite game of the year, out of the two I've played lol). Game really needed it. Given I didn't need to unlock a difficulty on Vanquish (which has a neat trick on the title screen) and Anarchy Reigns... this gives me hope for TW101 and Bayo 2. Then again maybe Kamiya likes his locked difficulties...
EDIT: Wait... I think the "Revengeance" difficulty is locked in MGR. FUCKKK
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I don't see how Witch Time slows the pace of the game. or is a get out of jail free card at all.
it actually speeds bayonetta up and gives her combo options on certain enemies she otherwise wouldn't have without it. (allows her to pull heavier enemies with the whip)
I think Witch Time is a really cool mechanic that gets shit on by people thinking about the game like Ninja Gaiden or something.
imo the way bayonetta was "meant to be played" is with manual Witch Time on NSIC. That's my favorite way anyways
it actually speeds bayonetta up and gives her combo options on certain enemies she otherwise wouldn't have without it. (allows her to pull heavier enemies with the whip)
I think Witch Time is a really cool mechanic that gets shit on by people thinking about the game like Ninja Gaiden or something.
imo the way bayonetta was "meant to be played" is with manual Witch Time on NSIC. That's my favorite way anyways
We need to stop bringing DmC into these discussions. It's like adults picking on a child. It's cruel.
There's only really one standard to these actions game that I reside by and that's by comparing them on their hardest difficulties (who gives a crap about normal, we aren't game journalists here). Yea DMC3 on DMD is way harder than DMC4/DmC and Bayo for the most part but NOT Ninja Gaiden. I beat DMD mode using Trickster plus Rebellion and AR plus Nevan on certain enemies. I didn't use any advance tactics or cancel to beat it, all I did was Star Dash at the right time to avoid attacks which is really only a requirement against the bosses because the enemies are so god damn easy. They are just super tanky and more annoying than challenging. In MNM though the skill requirement to beat it was way higher because the level of defense you needed was way higher than any DMC game to survive. In a lot of ways DMC1 was harder than DMC3 on DMD mostly because your timing on dodges had to be more spot on than using Trickster foreasy mode escape and punishes. Hell barring exploits I would say even Godhand is harder than DMC3 on DMD.
Cue in God's Beard saying he beat DMC3 on DMD by mashing Stinger.
Cue in God's Beard saying he beat DMC3 on DMD by mashing Stinger.
For difficulty settings I like how God Hand did it, even though Hard mode is still an unlockable, but normal at least scales up if you're good at it, could easily just have hard unlocked right off the bat and wouldn't ruin anything too, since your moveset don't carry over like dmc games, and actually doesn't make sense to have it locked there.
Riposte
Member
As I was just saying game, devs are forcing us to care by making us unlock difficulties. You pretty have to wipe your memory or you are actually dealing with a (for example) 15 hour game which repeats itself three times and begins much weaker than it ends instead of a solid 5 hour one.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Not true, friend.
DMC3 is hard because Cerberus FUCKED people up. Many of his attacks had quick telegraphs and took off a metric ton of life for mistakes and failing to react fast enough with an evasion. Recall that in the Japanese version of DMC3, you would be playing the American's equivalent of the normal mode with a leveled up Dante.
Furthermore, DMC3 had yellow orbs, which are extremely cheap. If you found that these yellow orbs were too expensive, this further only proves the fact that you didn't have enough skill for the game at that point. The application of such, would net you higher style ranks when you kill an enemy, netting much more orbs per kill. Also, attributing to a higher end mission rank, granting you even more orbs. Thereby giving you a plethora of red orbs to buy at least 3 to 4 yellow orbs (or checkpoints) for Cerberus easily.
DMC3's checkpoint system in the American version was not non-existant. It existed as yellow orbs. Which, was another element in it's demand for skillful play. Skillful play -> Much higher red orb yield. Which makes paying the relatively low cost for Yellow Orbs that much more palatable.
To say DMC3 was only difficult because of it's yellow orb system is an incredible disservice to the game Dahbomb, incredible disservice...not to mention an entirely inaccurate declaration. I actually can't believe you said that.
I'd actually love for the God Hand difficulty system to show up in other games. Bayo would be awesome if the enemies got more aggressive the better you were at it. (rage mode aside.)
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
But it is. It's completely analogous to RHOH w/slow-mo in Viewtiful Joe. Fucking Kamiya will always put in something to make people "feel better" as action gamers. I will even concede that DMC1 fucked up with Grenade Roll Canceling or how stupidly over powered Air Raid was early on in normal mode. Luckily DT is immensely less effective on DMD.
Dahbomb is right in one regard, DTE is pretty idiot-proof in DMC3. But not as much as Witch Time. Furthermore DTE requires a complete investment of your DT guage, not too mention obvious charge time requirements. Where as in Bayonetta, if you found yourself in a bind, you'd just wait for a completely obvious, telegraphed enemy wind up and dodge and get super slow mode = profit. It's a clever way to hide the "win" button I must admit.
I really wish you Bayonetta fans would play Bayonetta with Witch Time off. Now that is when Bayonetta gets real, and much more appreciable to DMC3. Though not exactly at it's level.
I completely agree with you. I do not understand why developers feel the need to "lock out" difficulty settings out of the box. Unless some mechanic, ability etc., is required to play it on said harder settings.
Your not actually refuting his points. Even if what you say is true, then your still saying that the checkpoint system is what makes DMC3 hard, just that it's easy to circumvent that by playing skillfully (to get yellow orbs), which is shockingly the same solution Dahbomb would propose to counteract checkpoint system even if yellow orbs were not part of the equation.
But if your playing skillfully, then that means your not dying, which means you don't need the orbs.
Your basically saying the game isn't difficult if you don't suck, which can be said of literally anything.
Riposte
Member
I actually don't like scaling difficulty too much, because it opens the option of gaming it, even unintentionally. For example: So you are beating the whole game on what amounts to "Lv. Die", but you come across a boss you can't beat on that difficulty (or at least not without mistakes which lowers the difficulty). It drops and you beat him, but then now you can't say that you beat the whole game on that difficulty. I would have preferred a scenario when the game gates me until I can clear it. As is, it could be something simultaneously very punishing (at least in games which are several hours long) and forgiving. Sort of patronizing too. God Hand was fine mind you, because the game is damn great even if in theory this mechanic can go array.
I want them to find a way to make stylish ranking influence the game more outside more currency (which I don't think the games do a good job at making you value like crazy). I don't think difficulty would be the way to provide it, but maybe look towards DMC4's exceed or locking DT based on ranking.
Though I generally like my difficulty systems to be as invisible as possible... one game that might be interesting to draw from is Kid Icarus: Uprising. What that had was a system were putting the game on a higher difficulty made you gamble your currency (in this case that would be red orbs I suppose though it is not really interesting unless it is the same currency as you unlock moves with). If you cleared it you got more currency at the end and better loot (though they really should not add a loot system to DMC, please god). Losing on the max difficulty could run you dry pretty quickly.
I want them to find a way to make stylish ranking influence the game more outside more currency (which I don't think the games do a good job at making you value like crazy). I don't think difficulty would be the way to provide it, but maybe look towards DMC4's exceed or locking DT based on ranking.
Though I generally like my difficulty systems to be as invisible as possible... one game that might be interesting to draw from is Kid Icarus: Uprising. What that had was a system were putting the game on a higher difficulty made you gamble your currency (in this case that would be red orbs I suppose though it is not really interesting unless it is the same currency as you unlock moves with). If you cleared it you got more currency at the end and better loot (though they really should not add a loot system to DMC, please god). Losing on the max difficulty could run you dry pretty quickly.
direct_quote
Member
And also with God Hand you could do a KMS run on hard which was basically like a whole new game mode in itself. You actually had to learn the mechanics...
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Yeah, I see what you're saying. But to avoid having to write out another lengthy post, I hope that you've played Demon/Dark Souls.
A lot of what makes that game special, is the notion that in order to get better gear/equipment/levels/stats (let's call this the equivalent of DMC3's yellow orbs) you have to "not suck." But in order to "not suck" you need all the gear/equipment/levels/stats. It's certainly a circular concept. But it's that very element, which makes the Souls games so appreciated by it's fans. The same holds true for those who admire DMC3 in a similar way.
I wouldn't normally like to cite Greg Kasavin, but given the situation I see no better alternative. He certainly was on to something when he said it's the specific design decisions in DMC3 (i.e, yellow orbs) that truly make you feel special when you beat it. That "special" he's referring to is the realization that you just finished a game that required nothing but a high degree skill and not just understanding of the game's mechanics but a mastery of them even on a default difficulty setting. Which is why I subscribe to the concept that from a pure action perspective, DMC3 is still the best.
I haven't played those games (want to though, but I have no time), but I can understand what your saying because it's exactly what I went through playing Ninja Gaiden in my childhood. The fact that something is difficult to achieve makes the accomplishment feel more significant once you have achieved it. I think that's pretty obvious.
As far as difficulty goes, normal should be your 101 of the games mechanics. It's needs to be challenging enough that you actually learn the games mechanics instead of just mashing through it, but you can't just drop a metric ton of intricate game mechanics on the very first mission and demand that the player learn them all before proceeding. In literary terms, think of it as a massive info dump of the setting you'd have to read for 50 pages of the world's setting, culture, history, etc before the adventure that the book is actually about can start. You don't do that, you feed the reader information bit by bit as the story goes on that's relevant or else they are not going to care. And that's what normal difficulty should be, an introduction to the game's mechanics. Then you proceed to hard, which further hones the mechanics you were introduced with, and then even more so on the next difficulty. This isn't about accommodating to the nubs, it's the reasonable expectation that you shouldn't force a player to know every intricacy about the combat system from the get go. Sure, there are a few people who are going to spend the time to learn everything, but that doesn't make them better players, just more patient/determined ones to have to sit through a crappy introduction to the game. Slowly immersing a player bit by bit makes it doesn't reduce the complexity of the system, it just makes it easier to understand. A system that is only difficult to understand because the game doesn’t communicate it well is artificially difficult. A very simple system can be made difficult if I were to give you incomplete information on how it work.
This is what bayonetta did superbly. Whether or not Witch time is overpowered or not, what it is meant to do is teach the player not only that dodging is important, but also to utilize dodge offset and how to best counter each enemy. The important thing was that Bayonetta was challenging enough on normal that it demanded that you learn the mechanics to pass. Not to a great degree, but you had to do it. Then in Hard mode, things got tougher and you had to hone your skills. And by the time you unlock NSIC, your actually ready to play without witchtime. Had you had WT off from the beginning, it'd have been much harder to learn the mechanics they needed to learn to master the game because the margin of error is so much smaller. Would people still be able to master the game in such an unintuitive way? Yeah, sure, but it'd just be artificially more difficult for no real reward. The goal here is MASTERING the combat system that is difficult to master because of its own nature. The road to mastering it should be helpful as possible however.
Edit: I spend half an hour recrafting this and gaf decides to die the moment I try to save it, meaning people probably won’t read it. Great.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
At risk of being called a traditionalist, what was so wrong with the concept of "teaching the player to dodge" to avoid ... dying? To avoid the infamous game over screen. I say teach the player to dodge because not doing so means ... you die??
I also cite Witch Time because I see it being used as a talking point as an aspect of forwarding the genre and being a major element as to why it's a better action game than DMC3. But, as far as I'm concerned, the application and usage of for example, Royal Guard - and everything one can do with it, is something more profound to the genre than Witch Time is.
Because your not teaching the player merely to 'not die', your encouraging him to experiment, get a grasp of dodge offset, and learn each enemy's mechanics independently. By implementing a smaller margin of error, you don't encourage the player to do these things because a few mistakes, you die, and you have to start again from an earlier point. In this way, the first thing they grasp onto that is slightly effective, they'll stick to it, because doing otherwise will mean defeat and death. Dodge offset in particular is difficult to master so even if it is the more effective technique, without the larger margin of error that allows players to fail without dying in order to gain that mastery, you'd have people merely dodging and then hammering simply because it is the surer way to survive rather than actually doing well. Merely beating the game is not having mastery of the combat system and it is the latter that we want to strive for. The original Cerberus fight is a good example for why it's bad to simply kill off the player if they're not doing well. Cerberus made you restart the level, but that just meant you had to go through 10 minutes of fighting random Hells and an Enigma again. If you die against Cerberus, then what good does having the player go through a bunch of hells again? They know how to beat hells, Cerberus is the enemy they have to learn to overcome, but the game forces them to go through the hells again in order to get back to the enemy that they need to learn to advance. It is pointless time wasting from the perspective of mastering the combat system. Restarting from where you fight Cerberus is much better because it directly puts you at the part of the game that you need to learn to advance, not having you kill fodder enemies for no reason.
I have to say the News Boss is one of the greatest video game bosses of all time. Certainly one of the best in recent history (traditional bosses actually kinda rare these days). I feel like that would have been something far less impressive were it spoiled to you before you played it, so Im glad, like much of the game, I hadnt seen any of it before I played it myself. That part is when I said holy shit this game is amazing
Well, I say it ruins replay and I played DmC's campaign 6 times (not counting single mission replays) + some training mode timing, I have 51 hours with the game now.
It's anti-replay, doesn't mean it's impossible to replay, just really annoying.
Falling in pits count as a death in Heaven or Hell / Hell and Hell
The refund is indeed a good thing, but it was already there in DMC4, they just carried it over to the next game.
rewarding people for dodging is more effective than punishing them for not dodging. It's psychology
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I have nothing to add to the carnvial of stupid that this DMC3 vs Bayo is becoming.
what I will say is even if you didn't know the button combo in bayonetta, pressing start during the cutscene brings up a menu with the skip option there.
In a way that's the most intuitive way to deal with it as that's what the majority of games that let you skip cutscenes do.
And lets be real here. Angel attack DOES hurt bayo in replayabilty. I fucking hate that minigame.
what I will say is even if you didn't know the button combo in bayonetta, pressing start during the cutscene brings up a menu with the skip option there.
In a way that's the most intuitive way to deal with it as that's what the majority of games that let you skip cutscenes do.
And lets be real here. Angel attack DOES hurt bayo in replayabilty. I fucking hate that minigame.
I can't tell whether your referring to me or him or both. I'm just examining which game presents itself in a way lends itself to teaching the player how to master the combat better, not trying to say which game has the better combat system itself or is the better game. I find it interesting as a analysis of game design.
Funchameleon
Banned
Why are we infighting about the best games of the genre when there's a war in progress?
Thanks to the REAL fans, I guess.
Thanks to the REAL fans, I guess.
I don't think there's enough "true fans" to make up for the missing sales. It's not like Bayonetta ever set the charts on fire.
Riposte
Member
Really?
Would it be too much to presume you don't like boss fights much, so you think this one that mostly consists of platforming and hitting switches to be so great?
There is a terrible poster stuck within me whom wants to make a thread called: "Rank power levels of all the DMC characters/Dantes/Vergils". Alternatively: "Who would win in a fight? Old Dante or New Dante?"
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
There is one thing debating a point, there is another being deliberately obtuse just to forward your agenda.
Id rather not get into the business of calling out names because It then descends into a bunch of ad hominems, mudding the waters further.
All I will say is some in this thread need to realise that their word is not law on these games, much as they may think it so.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Ah, glad to see this topic has lead to the only possible outcome: Uncle versus Auntie.
Nu Dante cuz demon dodge plus arbiter combo. OG Dante be like " oh em gee, nah dat hurt, dead." Then Nu Dante will curse his dead body into oblivion with 10x Fuck You bomb.
As someone who was never really into DMC prior to this game, and went in to this one basically blind, that boss was really dull and easy. Smash the red things, wail on him while he's totally defenseless, destroy mobs for delicious trigger juice, dodge attacks which are easily dodged, repeat.
Looked cool, though.
toastyToast
Member
Super Dante is hilarious to use. If only DT was designed in a more thoughtful manner so that it could be applied interestingly in combos. At least I don't have to worry about coloured enemies in HaH
Bayonetta is a gangly woman who incessantly thrusts her crotch at the camera
Bayonetta is a gangly woman who incessantly thrusts her crotch at the camera
Is there a way to un-invert the controls for the harrier mission? I remember having an atrocious time for that reason alone... the settings never seemed to change anything.
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