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[Sephzilla]

Considering Limbo is a pretty important part of the game and story, its completely arbitrary nature is actually a pretty big problem.

Regarding MGR being absurd. Metal Gear has always been absurd. This is a franchise that is known for having a boss that breaks the fourth wall, Russian choppers taking out fighter jets, a boss you can beat by changing the clock on your PS2, cigarettes in stomachs, and possession-via-a-grafted-arm. Even before MGS4, the entire franchise was already pretty ridiculous.

 

[Dahbomb]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=516626

Made a thread.

 

[Deitus]

and possession-via-a-grafted-arm.

Until

Spoiler

that got retconned to Nanomachines, son.

But yeah, Metal Gear stories have always been best digested with a heavy dose of salt. MGR isn't anything new. But when you prepared yourself with an extra serving of suspension of disbelief, there is a lot to like in the story telling, and a lot of good worldbuilding and flavor text (as well as genuine history lessons) can be found in the codec conversations. Though yeah, there are also tons of extensive monologues in the series, which MGR thankfully minimizes.

 

[Sephzilla]

Until

Spoiler

that got retconned to Nanomachines, son.

And I was actually happy MGS4 did that.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

Considering Limbo is a pretty important part of the game and story, its completely arbitrary nature is actually a pretty big problem.

Regarding MGR being absurd. Metal Gear has always been absurd. This is a franchise that is known for having a boss that breaks the fourth wall, German choppers taking out fighter jets, a boss you can beat by changing the clock on your PS2, cigarettes in stomachs, and possession-via-a-grafted-arm. Even before MGS4, the entire franchise was already pretty ridiculous.

If you see no difference between the shift Rising makes and what Metal Gear was prior to 4, then there's no point in continuing the discussion.

Also, the limbo thing doesn't contest what I said. It sidesteps it.

 

[One Foul Note]

Considering Limbo is a pretty important part of the game and story, its completely arbitrary nature is actually a pretty big problem.

I disagree, I think the chaotic unexplained nature of Limbo gives it a hostile and unpredictable character that would be ruined if they had a section of this game where they flatout laid out the rules of the two worlds. I do agree that the scene where Dante threatens to shoot Kat through the worlds is probably not needed considering that it raises more questions then it answers and don't really add anything to the overall plot, however I'm glad that NT didn't fall into the trap of overexplaining. I think that is what damaged the final plot of DS3 in the end.

 

[Sephzilla]

If you see no difference between the shift Rising makes and what Metal Gear was prior to 4, then there's no point in continuing the discussion.

Also, the limbo thing doesn't contest what I said. It sidesteps it.

My point is that the shift in MGS4 wasn't as big as you're thinking it is. A lot of the crazy stuff that happens in MGS4 pops up in the other installments of the franchise as well.

I disagree, I think the chaotic unexplained nature of Limbo gives it a hostile and unpredictable character that would be ruined if they had a section of this game where they flatout laid out the rules of the two worlds. I do agree that the scene where Dante threatens to shoot Kat through the worlds is probably not needed considering that it raises more questions then it answers and don't really add anything to the overall plot, however I'm glad that NT didn't fall into the trap of overexplaining. I think that is what damaged the final plot of DS3 in the end.

The problem is that in DmC, Limbo is just a haven for poor writing. Why can Phineas's weird goofy eye thing magically fix the one thing Dante conveniently needs fixed? Why can demons like The Hunter or Succubus affect both Limbo and the Real World simultaneously, but Dante can't without strange Kat-graffiti, but a couple of missions later Dante can inexplicably alter both worlds simultaneously? Stuff like this doesn't contribute to the unpredictable nature of Limbo, it's just bad writing.

You need to have certain rules in place otherwise you ruin any suspension of disbelief. And you can still establish rules for something and still keep it tense and unpredictable (see: The Matrix)

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

My point is that the shift in MGS4 wasn't as big as you're thinking it is. A lot of the crazy stuff that happens in MGS4 pops up in the other installments of the franchise as well.

The problem is that in DmC, Limbo is just a haven for poor writing. Why can Phineas's weird goofy eye thing magically fix the one thing Dante conveniently needs fixed? Why can demons like The Hunter or Succubus affect both Limbo and the Real World simultaneously, but Dante can't without strange Kat-graffiti, but a couple of missions later Dante can inexplicably alter both worlds simultaneously? Stuff like this doesn't contribute to the unpredictable nature of Limbo, it's just bad writing.

You need to have certain rules in place otherwise you ruin any suspension of disbelief. And you can still establish rules for something and still keep it tense and unpredictable (see: The Matrix)

Again, you're just cherry-picking inconsistencies with a highly subjective cutoff point in suspending disbelief. You can apply that same limbo logic in DmC to the older titles in the series or basically any other character action game. Plot holes may suggest lazy writing, but not necessarily bad and they're everywhere.

Also, if that's your point, then my statement still stands. You're inferring something I didn't even say regarding MGS4. So once again, no use in continuing with this.

 

[Sephzilla]

Again, you're just cherry-picking inconsistencies with a highly subjective cutoff point in suspending disbelief. You can apply that same limbo logic in DmC to the older titles in the series or basically any other character action game. Plot holes may suggest lazy writing, but not necessarily bad and they're everywhere.

Ninja Theory was brought in specifically to deliver a better story for the Devil May Cry franchise and hell Tameem himself was even touting that if he does his job right DmC's story should be some great thing.

I'm not holding DmC's story to the same standards as the other DMC games, I'm holding it to a higher standard because the people making the game itself wanted it to be held to a higher standard. Ninja Theory was brought in to do a better job story wise, and they gave us a story that's just as bad as, if not arguably worse than, the other games. That's a huge testament to their failure. Even Ninja Theory's previous works hold up better story wise than this (probably because they werent written in-house)

Also, if that's your point, then my statement still stands. You're inferring something I didn't even say regarding MGS4. So once again, no use in continuing with this.

Could you elaborate on your point then and please un-confuse me then?

 

[One Foul Note]

The problem is that in DmC, Limbo is just a haven for poor writing. Why can Phineas's weird goofy eye thing magically fix the one thing Dante conveniently needs fixed? Why can demons like The Hunter or Succubus affect both Limbo and the Real World simultaneously, but Dante can't without strange Kat-graffiti, but a couple of missions later Dante can inexplicably alter both worlds simultaneously? Stuff like this doesn't contribute to the unpredictable nature of Limbo, it's just bad writing.

You need to have certain rules in place otherwise you ruin any suspension of disbelief. And you can still establish rules for something and still keep it tense and unpredictable (see: The Matrix)

So their should have been a scene where Phin says "here is my magic eye, let me explain in detail how it works?" Naa, explaining those details would have been terrible, it would have slowed down the plot and they are unneeded in the overall scope of the story.

 

[Sephzilla]

So their should have been a scene where Phin says "here is my magic eye, let me explain in detail how it works?" Naa, explaining those details would have been terrible, it would have slowed down the plot and they are unneeded in the overall scope of the story.

It doesn't need a long detailed explanation, heck, just a quick throwaway line quickly referring to its function would have been adequate. As it is right now, it's a magical plot contrivance the writers pulled out of their ass. (kind of like Phineas himself). Ugh, sorry, just the amount of lazy writing in this game is painful.

 

[Veelk]

I don't think Rising really needs you to defend it. From what I saw earlier, it's doing pretty well on its own. However, were that bolded text simply just the premise you were stating, I'd agree, but the elaboration that it somehow implies a certain abundance of quality/coherence I do not agree with. It seems you have a selective standard with applying context here. The arbitrary nature of Limbo for example doesn't demand an explanation in the DmC's story. It might not be something you like, but its also not particularly relevant to the audience as long as the characters acknowledge it in at least some fashion (which they do). Were this the third DmC game in the series and we still had no idea of its relevance, I might be more inclined to agree.

First off, it's not about defending MGR itself, but my opinion of it. And products can't defend themselves, however well or badly they are selling or however they're critically received. Anyway, exposition can be annoying if not done correctly, but certain information just needs to be there for events to have meaning, even if they have to be obtuse in order to deliver it.

Considering Limbo is the prevalent element throughout the entire game (you could go as far as to call it an enemy, since it's sentient and trying to stop you), yeah, I think the audience needs a better elaboration on how it works because why it simply doesn't crush dante is a huge gap of information, since that'd be the simplest way to accomplish it's goal. And this isn't just limbo, but multiple plot points really don't make sense when you try to connect the dots. DmC doesn't explain jack shit. What 'needs' to be explained is a subjective case from person to person, but I think that atleast major plotpoints need to have substantial explanation for why something is happening.

Meanwhile you completely ignore the similarly erratic way technology comes across in Rising. Some are simply liberties Platinum took to make the game their own, but that doesn't necessarily bode well for consistency within the Metal Gear lore at large. Rising takes MGS4 (an already problematic entry in the franchise) to the absolute absurd and a lot of it isn't even intentional on Platinum's part. DmC is more exempt from this than Rising due to the fact that it's meant to be taken as an re-imagining of old elements that don't necessarily need to prioritize prior canon.

I'm honestly not sure which parts your talking about, because there is a codec explaining almost everything. I'm sure there are some inconsistencies if a person looks hard for them, but just out of the sheer staggering amount of worldbuilding and justification MGR does crushes DmC even if as much as 75% of it contradicts something. Which it doesn't, because there is no way so many people would have missed such a staggering amount of errors. Most of the stuff that happens is built off of what is already in the series. One of the major plot points is how PMC's got huge even though the war economy fell. Well, guess what, Drebin predicted exactly that at the end of MGS4. Being able to keep brains alive? Already happened before MGS4 with raiden. And that's why I keep challenging people to bring up supposed inconsistencies and narrative failures, because I'm just don't see them when I analyze the game. Perhaps the biggest contradiction I've found is that despite the ridiculous amount of noise that killing a cyborg does (screams, falling metal objects hitting the ground, followed by an explosion, of all things), but other cyborgs in the room never notice unless they actually see you doing it. But in comparison to everything, this is really minute stuff. I can't think of any huge errors they got that break the story. If you don't bother stealthing any of the sections, then this little inconsistency doesn't even come up. So when you refer to the erratic technology, your going to have to specify what technology and how it doesn't fit in the universe for me to agree with you.

Anyway, this is way off topic, as we have almost officially verged into territory that is not even talking about DmC, but whether I personally have an agenda towards it, and I think anyone who actually knows me knows that I don't. If we're gonna continue this conversation, I think it'd be better to have it be about DmC's storytelling alone.


Edit: Also, for the record, while I really appreciate that MGR does so much world building, that alone is not what makes it better than DmC. Consistancy alone is not what makes a story good. It's the fact that Raiden's character develops naturally, that the character motivations are clear and the story themes that are meaningful to the character, and it legitimately progresses the story after MGS4. DmC's failure in worldbuilding is problematic and hurts the game, but also Dante's relationship with Kat is forced, his character development is a classic telling, not showing moment, and the antagonist motivation seem to conflict with his stated nature. Narrative structure is not world building alone.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Veelk, you're making abstract arguments as to why MGR has good story by using terms that are very difficulty to debate with. I.e, "the story in MGR works better, because it flows, however, in DmC, it is forced."

huh? But I'll try to input something. In the end my depiction of the story will probably come across as abstract as shit too but whatever, we've already entered into a world full of stupid so I'll keep it going.

I don't see how Dante caring about Kat is forced. Let's forget about all the individual elements that happen throughout the main game as it progresses, and let's just focus on a very important larger concept, that Kat is probably the first person who gave two shits about Dante for the first time in a very long time, in a world that is seemingly constantly out to get him, literally - when you take the limbo concept, that would resonante a lot with a person.

When you come across somebody in 15 or such years (not sure of Dante's age) who actually is interested in you and what you could possibly represent, you tend to open up to them and respond to them affectionately a lot more quicker than you'd normally would. It's also the same reason why Dante opens up to Vergil so quickly. It may seem forced due to how fast this character change occurs in Dante, but that's what happens when somebody with no family and friends, is all of a sudden given such.

Another good argument that I read somewhere else is that Dante really begins to open up to Kat after he learned about his mother. As a kid, he failed to protect his mother - and he could possibly be projecting those emotions onto Kat. He feels compelled to protect Kat because he knows he has the power to do so, while - when his mother died (heart ripped out in front of him as a kid) he did not. In a sense, Dante was unloading all the compassion for humanity he should have been doing all this time, onto Kat wholesale. whatdoesthatmean# yeah, I agree. But there it is.

 

[Veelk]

Veelk, you're making abstract arguments as to why MGR has good story by using terms that are very difficulty to debate with. I.e, "the story in MGR works better, because it flows, however, in DmC, it is forced."

I don't think I ever really said this. But what I mean is that because there is no explanation for why things happen in DmC, it feels arbitrary that they do (in that they are just there to progress the plot and nothing more), while MGR makes every effort to explain everything that happens in the story (something many people miss by ignoring the codecs, I suppose), which is why the events that happen in MGR feel much more organic. If you want examples, well, they're rather long, but just open up the codec at any point, and they'll give you intel about cybertechnology, how the general public perceives it, the state of the place you are currently in, sometimes anecdotal history of a character who was there before, information on what that piece of technology you just used was, etc. One example I'll recite is that

Spoiler

space ship

you use near the end. Most games would have just given you it, but call up

Spoiler

Sunny on the codec, and she'll give you a quick recap of how she made it, how it's double wing feature functions, and what her general design philosophy was.

What this accomplishes is that it not only gives us an actual idea of why it worked the way it did, but by giving it a history and a function aside serving Raiden alone, it turns it into something besides a plot device, but an actual part of the universe, serving a purpose that has nothing to do with player at all, making the world your in feel bigger than just what you see in front of you. It also provides insight into how

Spoiler

Sunny herself thinks about these things (which is very unusual) and develops her character while making you wonder just what the experiments that the patriots did to her were

. Not all the exposition is the best worded it can be and sometimes it's placed at an inappropriate time and it is not strictly necessary (which is probably why it's optional), but it provides a function that enhances the story many fold. And when your arguing the quality of the story, it should definitely be taken into account. But as I said in my previous post, simple worldbuilding and technical consistancy, though good, is not alone what makes MGR more compelling than DmC. It also does Raiden's character arc and prevailing themes very well too.

I don't see how Dante caring about Kat is forced. Let's forget about all the individual elements that happen throughout the main game as it progresses, and let's just focus on a very important larger concept, that Kat is probably the first person who gave two shits about Dante for the first time in a very long time, in a world that is seemingly constantly out to get him, literally - when you take the limbo concept, that would resonante a lot with a person.

When you come across somebody in 15 or such years (not sure of Dante's age) who actually is interested in you and what you could possibly represent, you tend to open up to them and respond to them affectionately a lot more quicker than you'd normally would. It's also the same reason why Dante opens up to Vergil so quickly. It may seem forced due to how fast this character change occurs in Dante, but that's what happens when somebody with no family and friends, is all of a sudden given such.

I don't think this is accurate at all.

First off, that stripper dante screwed in the beginning seemed pretty concerned about dante when she saw him again and he just ignored her, at which point she told him to fuck himself. It could have just been a booty call, I guess, but it implies that Dante atleast can establish a social network if he wants for the girl to actively come seek him out.

Second, Kat was cold to him for the first step of their relationship, with her just rolling her eyes whenever he tried to hit on her. It was only through persistent attempts to connect that Dante finally got her to admit her backstory, at which point he told him hers, and there is where they found common ground and their relationship doesn't really progress beyond that point.

Third, Vergil cared about Dante way more than Kat was ever implied to, and much earlier, but he was uninterested in Vergil for the majority of the game. It was only at the very end, when they were right outside of Mundus door, that they even started learning about each other, and that felt like it was more out of bored curiousity than anything resembling affection for his lost twin.

Another good argument that I read somewhere else is that Dante really begins to open up to Kat after he learned about his mother. As a kid, he failed to protect his mother - and he could possibly be projecting those emotions onto Kat. He feels compelled to protect Kat because he knows he has the power to do so, while - when his mother died (heart ripped out in front of him as a kid) he did not. In a sense, Dante was unloading all the compassion for humanity he should have been doing all this time, onto Kat wholesale. whatdoesthatmean# yeah, I agree. But there it is.

He has no real reason to other than that she is female. She doesn't take care of him nor does she look or act in any similar way to Eva as far as we know. He could have just as easily projected upon the stripper. And again, if he's that concerned with establishing a human connection to his now remembered family, Vergil, who actually IS his family, is right there and he's consistently more concerned about Kat.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Alright dude. Thumbs up. I can keep going back and forth with you but I've stopped caring since this isn't going to lead to any definitive conclusion.

 

[Veelk]

Alright dude. Thumbs up.

If you don't want to discuss fine, but don't act like I just told you to shut up or anything. I just backed my counterargument with facts that are actually in the game. I don't deny that I can occasionally act like a pompous know-it-all asshole, but I don't think this is one of those times.

 

[Dahbomb]

Alright dude. Thumbs up. I can keep going back and forth with you but I've stopped caring.

He didn't say that at all and you are dodging the argument.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

If you don't want to discuss fine, but don't act like I just told you to shut up or anything. I just backed my counterargument with facts that are actually in the game. I don't deny that I can occasionally act like a pompous know-it-all asshole, but I don't think this is one of those times.

You disagree with my statement that Kat is one of the first people in a long time to actually have any interest in Dante and who he is and you counter that with "but, what about that stripper, she cares!"

She wanted Dante's attention so she could get a 20 dollar lap dance. Not because she 'connects' with Dante on a level anywhere near the connection Kat and Dante have. If that's an example you use to disagree with what I said then you just don't get it. And I'm not wasting my time going into things when you use counter arguments like that.

 

[Veelk]

You disagree with my statement that Kat is one of the first people in a long time to actually have any interest in Dante and who he is and you counter that with "but, what about that stripper, she cares!"

She wanted Dante's attention so she could get a 20 dollar lap dance. Not because she 'connects' with Dante on a level anywhere near the connection Kat and Dante have. If that's an example you use to disagree with what I said then you just don't get it. And I'm not wasting my time going into things when you use counter arguments like that.

It's not my fault that you can't comprehend simple arguments then, because that was not what I said.

First and foremost, their relationship isn't elaborated upon, so their relationship could be anything from that he is a regular customer to them having once had a long term relationship where he coldly dumped her and only calls her up to call her up for a booty while she cries herself to sleep every night because of her lost love. Perhaps she just wanted that $20, perhaps something more meaningful, who the fuck knows? Here is where some of Rising's dreaded exposition would have helped.

But my actual point was was the fact that she knew him by name and specifically went out to him at least suggests that he can create a social network if he wanted because they seem to know each other by name and he already established that he got laid on a fairly regular basis. I don't see what this could mean except some degree of social competence on his part if he can get girls to bed on a regular basis, unless he paid for each sexual encounter (unlikely). Given all this, it's very doubtful that Kat is the first friend that he ever made in 15 years. Your counter would be that demons ruined every friendship he got...but I can't see how they would even do that. And if they did go through all this trouble to destroy any companionship he got (and that would require some awfully tight surveillance all for someone they think is just some random guy. That implies a whole new level of incompetence if they watch him that closely for no reason while still never finding out he's sparda's son for over 10 years), why wouldn't they deny him physical intimacy as well?

So, in conclusion, it's pretty fucking unlikely that he had no friends up to this point unless he specifically chose that for himself for whatever reason, which breaks the foundation of the relationship with Kat that you suggest.

That's why I brought up the stripper, not because I thought she cared. Learn to read.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

I don't think I ever really said this. But what I mean is that because there is no explanation for why things happen in DmC

Actually, there's plenty of reasons why everything happens in DmC. In fact, there is a lengthy cutscene at the start of every mission which generally explains why you are doing what you are going to do. The demons intentions, how they are using fundamental corner stones in human society to negatively impact humans. Nutrition/Health, News/Propaganda, Economy. It's also made very clear that Dante, being devil/angel - is the only one capable of stopping said demons. Kat and Vergil need Dante's help to do this, thus the recruitment process. Through this endeavor, Dante discovers his family, his past, who he is, and what he can do and how. There is no segment of the game where the players is lost or confused as to why Dante is doing X or talking to Y. Even Vergil's - what appears to be sudden change at the end - can easily be explained with the notion that Vergil planned this all along. Knowing that with Mundus is gone, he can do what he wants. Vergil is just that convinced that he's -not- the bad guy. What we see it as a villan concept, Vergil thinks by taking over and leading humanity he's doing them a favor. So in that concept, Vergil hasn't done a "random character change" at all in his eyes. So again, I think the story in DmC is laid out and is pretty clear from start to finish. I'm not saying the story is good, but you initially made mention that there is no character progression, or explanation to the game's overall story, which is simply untrue. Notice I have never directly compared DmC story being better than MGR or vice versa.

the events that happen in MGR feel much more organic.

Organic? What? What do you mean? Organic... When I hear somebody say, "organic" I'm thinking you're talking about carbon backbones...how can this relate to a "factual based" (as you say) description of a game's story. Or are you implying it's "organic" because it flows? Okay...I guess I can see what you mean. And thus, DmC by relation is all of a sudden..."inorganic?" How am I supposed to argue against this? I can lay out what I feel "flows" in DmC narrative. But then wouldn't you just say you disagree? We're just now interpreting different elements of the game as organic and inorganic now. It's not going to lead to a definitive agreement.

So then you'll be explaining "organic" by using equally abstract concepts in regards to dissecting video games stories with words like "authentic" or "natural." I can't respond to this specifically because I don't understand what makes MGR "organic", and thus DmC "inorganic."

If you want examples, well, they're rather long, but just open up the codec at any point, and they'll give you intel about cybertechnology, how the general public perceives it, the state of the place you are currently in, sometimes anecdotal history of a character who was there before, information on what that piece of technology you just used was, etc.

So what you're basically saying is the story is better because it fleshes things out more. More descriptive. Sure, I guess one could see those things as creating a better story. But that's not always the case, there are plenty examples in which when things are deliberately left out it, as it allows the player/watcher to fill in the gaps on their own. Or create their own narrative as to why certain things are. I would also think this would negatively affect the pacing of the game, to hear Sunny talk about what kind of wrench or whatever the fuck she used on a bolt to make some ship. Anyway, watch a movie called "DUEL" to get what I'm talking about in this regard.

First off, that stripper dante screwed in the beginning seemed pretty concerned about dante when she saw him again and he just ignored her, at which point she told him to fuck himself.

She seemed concerned with Dante because he's probably a regular. Regulars at strip clubs pay out, their easy targets. That doesn't mean they want to establish "a social network" with their customers.

It could have just been a booty call.

....you're getting it now. Because it was. Hot guy, hot girl, people fuck. There could also be money exchanged. Again, I don't understand, AT ALL, how you're using this stripper as a comparison to Dante's compassion for Kat. You're making an inappropriate analogy.

Second, Kat was cold to him for the first step of their relationship

No she wasn't. She never humiliated, ignored, or berated Dante at all. In fact, her first words to Dante, were "Dante, you're in danger you need to get out of there." That doesn't sound cold to me.

with her just rolling her eyes whenever he tried to hit on her.

This is what normally happens in real life when you hit on somebody who you don't know and isn't immediately sexually interested in you.

It was only through persistent attempts to connect that Dante finally got her to admit her backstory, at which point he told him hers, and there is where they found common ground

Yeah, we call this character development.

and their relationship doesn't really progress beyond that point.

But it did. It progressed to the point where Dante actively defends Kat from his own brother, Vergil. ..remember....that part at the end...You may have missed that segment, I don't know.

Third, Vergil cared about Dante way more than Kat was ever implied to, and much earlier, but he was uninterested in Vergil for the majority of the game.

No....Dante seemed pretty invested and enlightened that he had a brother after mission home truths. He even said, "tell me everything." He cared for that, and he cared for his brother. He also protected Vergil during gameplay segments, in fact it was the basis for one entire mission.

...and that felt like it was more out of bored curiousity

Bored...curiousity...yeah, I'm not sure I get what you're saying. I think Dante was always curious about his family, again - I site an entire mission and a cutscene that was based off of that. It was also one of the more lengthier ones.

He has no real reason to other than that she is female.

Dante has plenty of reasons why he wants to help protect Kat. She's important to the mission, the cause. They need her to be safe for her to help Dante get in and out Limbo. Dante just realized his potential in regards to his power and lineage, and thus the first person he perceives as an object to protect is the only human he cares and knows about, which is Kat. It's also observed socially, and some studies suggest even evolutionary, that men have inherent instinct to protect women. So yes, her being female is a important reason why Dante wants to protect her as well as the other things.

And again, if he's that concerned with establishing a human connection to his now remembered family, Vergil, who actually IS his family, is right there and he's consistently more concerned about Kat.

There are plenty of instances in both gameplay and cutscene where Dante is actively concerned with the well being of Vergil. He also shows emotion when something does happen to Vergil. However, he does actively concern himself more with Kat, probably because he realizes Vergil is much more capable of protecting himself than, Kat - a human female with no combat skills is. Secondly, the aspect you disagree upon, is that Dante super-imposes is feelings and emotions he has for his mother, onto Kat.

EDIt: Also, Kat isn't just some facebook friend or some fuck buddy (like the stripper is). Her importance to the story and to Dante given the drama and the demons that are actively trying to kill them creates a scenario where Dante's relationship with Kat goes far beyond just some "friend." Dante likely did have some dude bros, before this. But it isn't unreasonable to assume that Kat is one of the first and most important humans he's ever interacted with for a long time, if ever. That stripper doesn't count, as much as you convinced yourself there is some super cool backstory to them, there isn't. It's just a stripper. She could be "friends" with Dante sure, but their connection cannot be anywhere in the same level as it with Kat. Since the circumstances surrounding Dante's meeting and friendship development with Kat is under unique circumstances.

Also, you can lay off on the hostility there big guy. Relax. We're just discussing video games stories.

 

[Veelk]

Actually, there's plenty of reasons why everything happens in DmC. In fact, there is a lengthy cutscene at the start of every mission which generally explains why you are doing what you are going to do. The demons intentions, how they are using fundamental corner stones in human society to negatively impact humans. Nutrition/Health, News/Propaganda, Economy. It's also made very clear that Dante, being devil/angel - is the only one capable of stopping said demons. Kat and Vergil need Dante's help to do this, thus the recruitment process. Through this endeavor, Dante discovers his family, his past, who he is, and what he can do and how. There is no segment of the game where the players is lost or confused as to why Dante is doing X or talking to Y. Even Vergil's - what appears to be sudden change at the end - can easily be explained with the notion that Vergil planned this all along. Knowing that with Mundus is gone, he can do what he wants. Vergil is just that convinced that he's -not- the bad guy. What see it as a villan concept, but Vergil thinks by taking over and leading humanity he's doing them a favor. So in that concept, Vergil hasn't done a "random character change." So again, I think the story in DmC is laid out and is pretty clear from start to finish.

Obviously, I never said that the game says absolutely nothing whatsoever, but it doesn't go into detail on anything. We know limbo is the demon realm which affects humans on a subconcious level, but we don't know why the demons go through this facade instead of ruling us outright for example. It's only 'laid out and clear' if you don't do any reflection or question anything in the game at all.

Organic? What? What do you mean? Organic... When I see somebody say, "organic" I think it contains carbon backbones...how can this relate to a "factual based" (as you say) description of a game's story. Or are you implying it's "organic" because it flows? Okay...I guess I can see what you mean. And thus, DmC by relation is all of a sudden..."inorganic?" How am I supposed to argue against this? I can lay out what I feel "flows" in DmC narrative. But then wouldn't you just say you disagree? We're just now interpreting different elements of the game as organic and inorganic now. It's not going to lead to a definitive agreement.

Is English not your first language or something? More likely your being facetious, as it's pretty obvious I mean organic in that it feels more authentic and natural, but in case it's not, that's what I mean. Reread my post with that definition in mind and it will make more sense.

So what you're basically saying is the story is better because it fleshes things out more. More descriptive. Sure, I guess one could see those things as creating a better story. But that's not always the case, there are plenty examples in which when things are deliberately left out it, as it allows the player/watcher to fill in the gaps on their own. Or create their own narrative as to why certain things are. I would also think this would negatively affect the pacing of the game, to hear Sunny talk about what kind of wrench or whatever the fuck she used on a bolt to make some ship. Anyway, watch a movie called "DUEL" to get what I'm talking about in this regard.

I agree with this statment, but that's why I made sure to point out that "simple worldbuilding and technical consistancy, though good, is not alone what makes MGR more compelling than DmC. It also does Raiden's character arc and prevailing themes very well too. " Your making a counter that I already addressed.

I can't comprehend why you're making comparisons between the relationship Kat and Dante have....with a stripper at a titty club calling out for Dante because she wants 20 bucks from a lap dance? That doesn't mean they want to establish "a social network" with them.

I already clarified what I meant in the previous post you quoted at the top. Again, learn to read.

....you're getting it now. Because it was. Hot guy, hot girl, people fuck. There could also be money exchanged. Again, I don't understand, AT ALL, how you're using this stripper as a comparison to Dante's compassion for Kat. You're making in inappropriate analogy.

Except you have no basis to assume that. All we know is that they had sex the night before. Besides that, she doesn't exist as a character. But what her character is isn't even the point I'm making.

No she wasn't. She never humiliated, ignored, or berated Dante at all. In fact, her first words to Dante, were "Dante, you're in danger you need to get out of there." That doesn't sound cold to me.

You don't have to do those things to be cold to someone. In fact, if you do those, that suggests a certain spitefulness or hatred. I didn't say that Kat hated him. Just that she was cold, kept him at a distance, treated their relationship as a business. She doesn't want him to die, but that doesn't suggest any affection.

This is what normally happens in real life when you hit on somebody who you don't know and isn't immediately sexually interested in you.

It does normally happen, my point is that it's not special and therefore dante has no reason to care about her more than the dancer at the club.

Yeah, we call this character development.

To a small extent, yes. I'm sure there are plenty of people that Dante met at some point that he found himself vaguely similar to, that doesn't make them special nor should Kat be for it. It might have worked as a jumping off point, but they never did anything with it. Dante just liked Kat more and she...was mostly the same, I think? The point is, for their relationship to truly progress, there needs to be a reason why they want each other. Similar pasts can help with this, but they are not an ends to themselves. There are plenty of people I know with similar pasts to mine that I want nothing to do with because of what they are now.

But it did. It progressed to the point where Dante actively defends Kat from his own brother, Vergil. ..remember....that part at the end...You may have missed that segment, I don't know.

I see nothing suggesting that Dante wouldn't have done the same in their very first meeting.

No....Dante seemed pretty invested and enlightened that he had a brother after mission home truths. He even said, "tell me everything." He cared for that, and he cared for his brother. He also protected Vergil during gameplay segments, in fact it was the basis for one entire mission.

Did you even watch the scene? Tell me everything was referring to their past, not what Verigl has been up to. Again, your conflating "I don't want you to die" to "I care about you", which is erroneous in most circumstances and especailly so in this one where they need each other to acheive their ends, but that doesn't mean they appreciate each other as people.

Bored...curiousity...yeah, I'm not sure I get what you're saying. I think Dante was always curious about his family, again - I site an entire mission and a cutscene that was based off of that. It was also one of the more lengthier ones.

There are plenty of instances in both gameplay and cutscene where Dante is actively concerned with the well being of Vergil. He also shows emotion when something does happen to Vergil. However, he does actively concern himself more with Kat, probably because he realizes Vergil is much more capable of protecting himself than, Kat - a human female with no combat skills is. Secondly, the aspect you disagree upon, is that Dante super-imposes is feelings and emotions he has for his mother, onto Kat.

Then you'd think he wouldn't wait until he was right outside the door of what is effectively a demon god with a high chance that they will die in the fight before wondering, "oh, hey, what the hell have you been doing all these years that we've been seperate anyway." if he cared about him. Getting his background was an afterthought at best.

Dante has plenty of reasons why he wants to help protect Kat. She's important to the mission, the cause. They need her to be safe for her to help Dante get in and out Limbo. Dante just realized his potential in regards to his power and lineage, and thus the first person he perceives as an object to protect is the only human he cares and knows about, which is Kat. It's also observed socially, and some studies suggest even evolutionary, that men have inherent instinct to protect women. So yes, her being female is a important reason why Dante wants to protect her as well as the other things.

Again, did you watch the cutscenes? First, he didn't know she'd be useful to the mission until after she had already done said useful thing and just wanted to save her for her own sake. And dante didn't really care about the mission whenever Kat was at risk. I don't mind him wanting to protect her, but the point here is that their relationship has no reason to be specail in any way, yet they are treating it as it is. As for the rest of that stuff about him realizing his power meaning he needed to protect whatever girl human was near him, your projecting HARD here, because there is nothing suggesting any of this in the actual game.

EDIt: Also, Kat isn't just some facebook friend or some fuck buddy (like the stripper is). Her importance to the story and to Dante given the drama and the demons that are actively trying to kill them creates a scenario where Dante's relationship with Kat goes far beyond just some "friend." Dante likely did have some dude bros, before this. But it isn't unreasonable to assume that Kat is one of the first and most important humans he's ever interacted with for a long time, if ever. That stripper doesn't count, as much as you convinced yourself there is some super cool backstory to them, there isn't.

As if it wasn't obvious already, you have some serious reading comprehension problems. I replied to this broken up wall of misunderstood text out of courtesy, but all that needs to be said here is that you are making up shit that isn't actually in the game regarding the relationships and progression in this game and have a severe issue understanding what I'm actually writing, all while ironically and incorrectly condescending how I am making stuff up or misunderstanding what is happening. I think we should go with your previous suggestion of ending the argument here, because jesus christ.

Also, you can lay off on the hostility there big guy. Relax. We're just discussing video games stories.

Doubly ironic. In case you forgot, you were rude long before I was.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

post

Ok.

 

[Mike M]

Man, I am so sorry I opened this can of worms...

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Just don't mention MGR's dumb story and we'll all be happier

 

[Veelk]

Man, I am so sorry I opened this can of worms...

There is a good discussion to be had on this, lhk is just clearly not suited to have it with.

I do apologize though. I shouldn't have replied to that broken up wall of text when it became clear that he wasn't ready to have the conversation. Blame it on my OCD.

Just don't mention MGR's dumb story and we'll all be happier

We weren't even discussing mgr for 99% of those posts...

 

[Sephzilla]

Just don't mention MGR's dumb story and we'll all be happier

Yeah, this thread has gone off the tracks. Let's talk about DmC's really dumb story instead

 

[itwasTuesday]

DmC's dumb story. I'll talk about that!

Like, why was his devil trigger just sitting & spinning on the wing platform for all this time.

I almost expected the game to shout out "Quad Damage".

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

As dahbomb has pointed it out. It's rather sad that there has been barely any new tech discussed in this thread but we are dedicating whole pages to story discussion


a sad sad state of affairs.

*goes back to playing rising*

 

[Dahbomb]

Story discussion is still better than no discussion.

 

[Sephzilla]

So has anyone here actually played/watched Vergil's Downfall? I've heard the story in it is better written than the main game, I was just curious if it was true. I also heard Vergil's Downfall wasn't written by Tameem either, so perhaps that might explain why. I'm actually curious how it is, some people I talk to who didnt like the main game found Downfall to be competent while some others pretty much called it an episode of Bleach. So I have no idea what to expect from it.

 

[ezekial45]

As dahbomb has pointed it out. It's rather sad that there has been barely any new tech discussed in this thread but we are dedicating whole pages to story discussion


a sad sad state of affairs.

*goes back to playing rising*

The majority of this thread has been about politics, negativity, and the hatred this game inspired.

That's whats really sad. You can't have a straight conversation about what this game did right, because many people will refuse to give it that. This thread is the culmination of the mass nervous breakdown 3 years ago, and the boiling hatred that followed.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407379

It's a shame.

 

[Dahbomb]

So has anyone here actually played/watched Vergil's Downfall? I've heard the story in it is better written than the main game, I was just curious if it was true. I also heard Vergil's Downfall wasn't written by Tameem either, so perhaps that might explain why. I'm actually curious how it is, some people I talk to who didnt like the main game found Downfall to be competent while some others pretty much called it an episode of Bleach. So I have no idea what to expect from it.

I have already made numerous impressions on the DLC. The story isn't "OMFG amazing" but its a step up from the original. It is simpler and more focused with a clear cut motivation and psyche of Vergil. People may not like why Vergil turns full heel villain but the reasoning is given and it's consistent with the main game and that novel they released.

As far as the Bleach reference goes, yea I don't know what the writers were thinking with that particular scene but it works and I dug it. The whole story isn't comparable to Bleach its just one scene. The whole feel of the DLC did feel more anime inspired than the main game but its fine IMO.

The majority of this thread has been about politics, negativity, and the hatred this game inspired.

That's whats really sad. You can't have a straight conversation about what this game did right, because many people will refuse to give it that. This thread is the culmination of the mass nervous breakdown 3 years ago, and the boiling hatred that followed.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407379

It's a shame.

Dat meltdown. Seriously the game never recovered from that backlash. Pretty much everyone in that thread had written off the game at that point. This just goes to show how important an initial reveal of a game is and how PR is so important. Those Tameem quotes about new Dante still get cringes from me.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

The majority of this thread has been about politics, negativity, and the hatred this game inspired.

That's whats really sad. You can't have a straight conversation about what this game did right, because many people will refuse to give it that. This thread is the culmination of the mass nervous breakdown 3 years ago, and the boiling hatred that followed.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407379

It's a shame.

Time to reboot the thread about the reboot.

 

[Veelk]

I have already made numerous impressions on the DLC. The story isn't "OMFG amazing" but its a step up from the original. It is simpler and more focused with a clear cut motivation and psyche of Vergil. People may not like why Vergil turns full heel villain but the reasoning is given and it's consistent with the main game and that novel they released.

Novel? Do you mean the comic?

 

[Dahbomb]

Yea the comic.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Just don't mention MGR's dumb story and we'll all be happier

I take it those hours of codec conversations adding to the world-building element of the story didn't do much for you then?

I also heard Vergil's Downfall wasn't written by Tameem either.

I don't think this has been confirmed either as somebody would have to check out the dedicated credits for Vergil's DLC (if there any) to verify. Maybe a play through on youtube has the credits up?

Dante and Vergil are opposites in personality though, so the story and dialogue should feel different even if the writers were the same.

 

[GuardianE]

The majority of this thread has been about politics, negativity, and the hatred this game inspired.

That's whats really sad. You can't have a straight conversation about what this game did right, because many people will refuse to give it that. This thread is the culmination of the mass nervous breakdown 3 years ago, and the boiling hatred that followed.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407379

It's a shame.

It's hilarious looking back at that thread and seeing the exact same people doing damage control or saying that they like the new look, with a few exceptions of course. And the same exact people throwing drive-by troll comments towards the DMC fanbase. Christ, nothing significant really did change in 3 years.

 

[Dahbomb]

It's hilarious looking back at that thread and seeing the exact same people doing damage control or saying that they like the new look, with a few exceptions of course. And the same exact people throwing drive-by troll comments towards the DMC fanbase. Christ, nothing significant really did change in 3 years.

Haters gonna hate. Players gonna play.

 

[GuardianE]

Haters gonna hate. Players gonna play.

*shrug* I played and hated.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

It's hilarious looking back at that thread...

Yeah, there was a lot of trolling going on in that thread, and a lot of it was directed towards Ninja Theory. It's good to see that they surprised a lot of people by putting out a good action title. I'm still amazed at seeing some of these newer Vergil combo vids that this is the same Ninja Theory that did Heavenly Sword. Talk about leveling the fuck up. Interested to see what they will be doing next.

 

[GuardianE]

Yeah, there was a lot of trolling going on in that thread, and a lot of it was directed towards Ninja Theory. It's good to see that they surprised a lot of people by putting out a good action title. I'm still amazed at seeing some of these newer Vergil combo vids that this is the same Ninja Theory that did Heavenly Sword. Talk about leveling the fuck up. Interested to see what they will be doing next.

They've definitely learned a great deal. Hopefully they can apply it to something far away from the DMC franchise.

 

[Dahbomb]

I would like to think that after DmC NT's reputation as game developers went up. They may not light up the chart but they have made a game that most would agree is a good action game overall and a big step up from their last 2 endeavors.

 

[AwakenedCloud]

Funny, at level 40 of BP I checked to see how many floors there were and if it was possible to save. The last sentence that I read mentioned the DmC BP had its fair share of bugs. Literally the second after I completed floor 40 and killed the hunter, the game crashes. Not doing that again.

 

[That Dude John]

Part of me hopes that they really did learn, and it wasn't just Capcom staff dragging a good game out of them with such close collaboration and they will be able to better themselves on future projects on their own.

One can hope. I'd imagined them returning to Heavenly Sword, but it comes from a more "God of War" school of thought than a "DMC" one, so I'm not entirely sure what good that would do with what they've learned. It'd be different at least, as it ought to be since God of War is still kicking.

I've also considered Capcom working with NT again due to the critical reception, even if not for DmC2 due to sales. Not sure what it'd be in it's place, though.

Or something completely new. I like new stuff, too.

 

[IISANDERII]

Can you farm unlimited red orbs in the secret mission Argent - Hasty Acquisition?

You can keep failing the mission -> resetting it and collecting all the orbs again. But does your orb count get reset after?

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Can you farm unlimited red orbs in the secret mission Argent - Hasty Acquisition?

You can keep failing the mission -> resetting it and collecting all the orbs again. But does your orb count get reset after?

Unsure - but I'd think a more effective way would be blasting through Bloody Palace. You can make a few thou easy.

 

[Mike M]

What's even the benefit to farming red orbs? I only ever bothered using them to get health/DT bar pieces, and had more than enough to get those and max out my inventory just from SSS ranking Nephlim difficulty.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

Here's something for the people looking for a more positive take.

 

[danmaku]

"adaptive training" = ???

Art direction is excellent, no doubts about that.

 

[Sephzilla]

I would like to think that after DmC NT's reputation as game developers went up. They may not light up the chart but they have made a game that most would agree is a good action game overall and a big step up from their last 2 endeavors.

I don't think it did. In fact I think DmC to a certain extent has made Ninja Theory toxic to touch for a few reasons. First off, the way they treated a good deal of DMC fans isn't going to do them any favors going forward. Yeah, you can make the argument that fans never gave them a chance and all that but NT didn't exactly do much to rehabilitate their relationship with those fans. Rather, they poked the sore spot a few times.

Secondly, this is their third flop in a row and arguably their biggest flop yet. Heavenly Sword and Enslaved had built-in excuses since they were new IPs, but now Ninja Theory has brought down an established franchise that was one of the best sellers in its genre. DmC isn't even going to get close to Capcom's revised 1.2 million sales marker, sales wise it was dead before MGR even came out. Heck, there's an outside shot that DmC might end up as NT's worst selling game overall.

Ninja Theory has effectively made themselves pariahs to a certain extent. The whole "DmC fan venom" is going to follow them, and publishers are going to be pretty hesitant to bring them on board because of that and because Ninja Theory has a very poor cost-to-profit ratio. The reason studios like Platinum and FromSoftware keep getting work despite meager profits are because they can put out respectable products with a substantially smaller budget - something I don't think Ninja Theory can do.

-------------------------

In regards to the quality of DmC itself. I dunno, I thought it was an okay-at-best game and I don't even think it's Ninja Theory's best work. From a gameplay perspective DmC is their best gameplay so far, but in all honesty all that did was vault them up from having games with mediocre/bad gameplay to "okay" gameplay. Honestly, I still think Heavenly Sword is Ninja Theory's best game. It's got the best balance of good gameplay and good storytelling. Enslaved had a better story but had abysmal gameplay in my opinion, and DmC might have better gameplay but it has one of the most poorly built stories I've seen in a long time.

In the overall spectrum of action games I think DmC is on Dante's Inferno tier (haha, Dante). It's okay at best, but it's clearly not on the same tiers as a God of War, DMC-Proper, or Bayonetta.

I know, you'll all look at me and say "haters gonna hate". I played the full game and judged it both on its own merits and compared it to the other DMC games. Through both lenses I thought the game was fairly pedestrian. There are a bunch of action titles that are substantially better and there are a few DMC games that are substantially better (personally, I liked DMC4 better as well by factor of it having a deeper combat system and generally having a sense of humor I liked more).

Truthfully the main reason I played this game was out of obligation, as it had "Devil May Cry" in the title. Even though I wasn't fond of the direction it was going in I wanted to give it a chance since I was a fan of the franchise. If this reboot and all of the brouhaha around it happened to any other franchise that I didn't care about nearly as much, and the final product was similar to this, I probably wouldn't have even given the game the time of day because it looked like a game I wouldn't spend sixty bucks on.

-------------------------

Here's something for the people looking for a more positive take.

*Sigh* There are times like this where I felt like I played a completely different game than everyone else. I'll agree that the art design in DmC is pretty damn great (it's probably the standout great thing of the game in my opinion). But the level designs? Eh... the level designs (note: the actual layout of the stages, not the artistic portions of it) are very comparable to DMC2.

I also kind of think DmC's platforming is a tad over-rated. It's not bad platforming, dont think I'm saying that. But there's absolutely no challenge in the platforming, it's just a glorified QTE.