No they're different archetypes. The Master wants to take things over because he's an entitled shit, the Rani wants to do fucked up science experiments (for science).
Doctor Who Series 8 |OT| We've fucking time-travelled, yes?
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mightynine
Member
Missy is the Papal Mainframe (thinks it's Heaven) which is what the computer in the library became after a virus was introduced to it (so it got a bit of River Song's memories, why it thinks the Doctor is her boyfriend).
Makes as much sense as any other guess.
Makes as much sense as any other guess.
Sounds like a Moffat plot to me.
Heh. I'm not sure why I never saw the computer connection between ghost-in-the-shell River and the Papal Mainframe before.
BigWeather
Member
I'm really enjoying the new Doctor. I also really like the slower, more deliberate pace and the much less bombastic soundtrack.
mightynine
Member
Honestly, I thought there would be a connection between trapped in the library computer River and the Papal Mainframe when we heard its female voice.
OT updated.
Episode synopses and new characters added.
Keeping up with spoiler policy, episode synposes for upcoming episodes are blacked out until it airs. These were from Den of Geek/Blogtor Who.
Instead of making a general thread right now, I'm just going to make an Off-Season thread after the Christmas Special.
Episode synopses and new characters added.
Keeping up with spoiler policy, episode synposes for upcoming episodes are blacked out until it airs. These were from Den of Geek/Blogtor Who.
Instead of making a general thread right now, I'm just going to make an Off-Season thread after the Christmas Special.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
I hope it's not Hell or Heaven... That would shit all over Torchwood's nihilistic/existentialist world view.
This, I think, is the more interesting question that few people are focussing on. If we're assuming a lack of supernatural explanations (because, well, I don't think a straight interpretation of it being an afterlife is within Who's remit!), it's an interesting quandary. People seem to die... and then they seem to end up there. And the timeline there seems to be following the Doctor's timeline, even though the stories thus far have been set in Victorian England then the distant future.
My theory:
'Heaven' is the Doctor's own memory. Those aren't *really* the people arriving in the afterlife, they're the Doctor resolving to not forget them. And Missy is some sort of Dream Lord-esque entity - possibly, indeed, a memory of the Master that's got corrupted somehow - we've certainly seen indications in Deep Breath that his memory isn't as solid as it was, and I'm wondering if that's more than old age or post-regeneration trauma.
Of course, there is the interesting question of (episode title spoilers)
the title of that last episode
I'd be pretty surprised if it was literally Heaven. Even Satan was just some angry space monster.
Though now that I think about it, "Heaven" kinda looks similar to River's computer world, doesn't it? Similar kind of lighting. Maybe that's looking too much into it.
We actually heard the Papal Mainframe speak? I obviously need to watch the Trenzalore stuff again. I though the mainframe was just the ship Lem and the Church was on - though maybe it did speak and I just don't remember it.
Is there any other reason to suspect the Papal Mainframe computer somehow becomes the Library computer? That seems like a stretch unless someone can point to something (and I'm so confused about where all the Church of Silence crap falls in various timelines that I have no idea anymore).
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Fuck its this isn't it?
It would explain why Missy would have an interest in keeping the Doctor and Clara together
The Elite
BOSS
Hey, for those in Canada, is it just me or is Space: The Imagination Station running at a weird framerate. I was watching Into the Dalek last night on Space and the speed looked really weird to me. I was watching one of those shark movies the other day and it was the same thing.
funkystudent
Member
Missy is totally some weird version of Clara.
Kind of obvious foreshadowing when Missy called the Doctor "my boyfriend" and the Doctor also told Clara "I am not your boyfriend" in EP1
Kind of obvious foreshadowing when Missy called the Doctor "my boyfriend" and the Doctor also told Clara "I am not your boyfriend" in EP1
Unless of course 'Heaven' is the name of a tardis and it is being materialised around people before they die. The effect when it happens is exactly the same as what the Doctor blatantly did to Journey at the start of the episode.
On this new Doctor. I'm really enjoying his character. I love the way he and Clara bounce off eachother, and I really like how he seems to have exact control over the tardis. Previous doctors flick switches run round and generally panic and flap about as it flies. With capaldi he just flips the the lever 'schunk!' And its done. Love it.
On this new Doctor. I'm really enjoying his character. I love the way he and Clara bounce off eachother, and I really like how he seems to have exact control over the tardis. Previous doctors flick switches run round and generally panic and flap about as it flies. With capaldi he just flips the the lever 'schunk!' And its done. Love it.
It can't be as simple as that. We've seen the characters that end up there clearly dead before they do. The cyborg guy was very obviously impaled, and he was ok when he got to heaven. It was even more obvious with the other guy, he was disintegrated in presence of everyone, molecules pulled apart and all that, yet there he was in heaven not a scratch on him.
The guy from Into the Dalek wasn't in heaven was he, only the woman who sacrificed herself?
Finished all the missing episodes on my second classic series watch! Just The War Games left for Throughton, which is, from memory, my favorite one. It's a smooth ride from here on out. Well, apart from the fact that I'm going to have to go through all of Pertwee again. Certainly not looking forward to the Peladon stories. Worst Who planet by far.
Ah damn, you're right. My memory fails me. Was that death off-screen?
You dont see her die.
Regarding Missy. I dont think she is the Master I think she is a total new character.
She refers to The Doctor as her boyfriend because he keeps sending gifts (dead people) to her.
You see anti-bodies approaching and she shoots at them and then she is suddenly in Heaven.
Regarding Missy. I dont think she is the Master I think she is a total new character.
She refers to The Doctor as her boyfriend because he keeps sending gifts (dead people) to her.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Not exactly a pun, but doesn't it mean Thirteen in French or something?
It cut from her screaming as she was being disintegrated to her still screaming, now in "heaven", so the death wasn't actually shown, but it's implied.
Speaking of Capaldi's TARDIS switch flipping, anyone notice that he seems to have finer control over flying it? He returned Clara to the cupboard 30 seconds afters she left, no "missing for 12 months" mishaps like with Rose here.
The cyborg guy was also, well, a cyborg, maybe he was just impaled, and interestingly, both characters (may) have sacrificed themselves to save others. (the other dude who died in into the dalek didn't get the heaven treatment)
BrokenFiction
Member
I grow more of the opinion that the Master/River/Papal Mainframe argument might be too easy, because of observations like this. There's a lot more to Missy than we imagine right now.
Scooter155
Member
Seems marginally possible and super cool, but as far as I know Dr. Who has never taken a stance on confirming or denying real life religions (though the Doctor himself seems pretty dismissive of humanity's ideas of a "God"), so having an actual heaven/hell that timelords go to when they die might be ... discordant.
Nope.
Scooter155
Member
That's probably the best theory, but I think it's also fairly unlikely...
This definitely seems like something Moffat would do... but I really hope it's not the case. The evidence I'm holding on to is tenuous - buti t seems to me that with Capaldi's era, Moffat's trying to deliberately distance the show from everything in its past, at least from the silence, Kovarian, the papal mainframe and the church, all that jazz.
Nope.
Not what you're talking about, but this reminded me of something else, when the clockwork guy met Missy, didn't she say he'd made it to the promised land? Did she also call it Heaven at some point, or just "the promised land"? I wonder if she's just telling people what they want to hear. Tell the clockwork guy it's the "promised land" he's been searching for and tell the human woman that it's the "heaven" she's presumably heard about since childhood.
I'm pretty sure (could easily be wrong) that you see both of the Heaven-sent characters die, or at least get grievously wounded. The clockwork dude is full-on impaled on Big Ben and the woman in the Dalek has the same disintegrating effect happening to her that happened to the first guy before the screen fades to white. The clockwork guy could presumably survive simply because he's a robot, and the disintegrating woman could have been my imagination, but I currently believe there's something out of the ordinary going on with that woman, able to bring people back from the dead somehow.
Yeah, interesting point. Could it be that Missy's not bringing people there, but they get sent there when they do something heroic? If the cyborg is there because of a sacrifice, that means he threw himself off of the balloon and was not pushed by the doctor, which is nice.
Maybe they're people who the doctor has inspired to be heroic and they'll come back in the end to show him he really is a good man, he's inspired them to do good? I doubt it though, it really seems like something sinister is going on with Missy. Which episode was it where she was in photos with the doctor?
Have we even seen another 'real' Tardis in New Who? There's the Silence one but that's suggested to be an attempt to build a knockoff tardis, and there's bits of wrecked Tardisses in House's pocket dimension, but that's all I can think of.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'll say this, I'm already more invested in this mystery than any of the "how will the Doctor die (but of course not really die) nonsense.
Here's hoping it doesn't shit the bed like the Impossible Girl thing
Here's hoping it doesn't shit the bed like the Impossible Girl thing
Except, of course, there's the fact that Missy *asks* whether that was the case, when logically his presence there would answer the question. Although that's dependent on her being aware of it.
Scooter155
Member
WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THE SILENCE HAD A TARDIS?
Seriously, it was just a room with a console in the middle. No one on the show ever said "Hey, this looks kinda TARDISy", and that's the kind of thing you'd think the Doctor would notice. Heck, even if there is some Word of God statement out there where Moffat said it's their attempt at building one, I wouldn't buy it. They probably just re-used the same set from the Lodger, hoped no one would notice, and then retroactively tried to glom onto the fan theories about it being a TARDIS because that was way more interesting than anything they'd thought up.
"Seriously, you guys." - Homestar Runner
Bobby Roberts
Banned
While I enjoy the speculation, and I like seeing where everybody's heads can spiral out to in trying to figure out a mystery that has provided almost zero clues, I do feel like this is one of those situations where the amount of extra intrigue and inspection (introspection, as well) being layered on this mystery now is going to be looked upon, in hindsight, as being entirely Moffat's, and he will be judged for it, even IF the mystery itself isn't that convoluted or confused 
So far we know that people who sacrifice themselves for the Doctor get to go to Missy's, and that Missy calls her place "heaven" and refers to the Doctor as her boyfriend. That's it.
So far we know that people who sacrifice themselves for the Doctor get to go to Missy's, and that Missy calls her place "heaven" and refers to the Doctor as her boyfriend. That's it.
Scooter155
Member
Yeah, good point. For someone with the ability to teleport dead people to her own personal heaven, her powers of perception seem pretty limited. Doesn't she ask him how he fell and then say "It was hard to see" or something? Clearly, that's meant to put the question in our heads too, but it's weird that she can pull him out of the timestream second before he dies and still not be aware of what was going on with him...
I like it too! But then, I thought Clara's resolution was pretty good, a lot more solid than, for instance, the Impossible Astronaut. The Astronaut wasn't even impossible, just slightly improbable! It's weird that Clara would knowingly sacrifice her life to save 11, which resulted in her seeing every single incarnation he'd ever go through (excluding Capaldi and future doctors, presumably) and still be weirded out by him regenerating now. She was ready to leave him at the end of Deep Breath, that seems super out of character!
I'm more-or-less in agreement. "Knockoff Tardis" pretty much means "Nonspecific Time Ship" in my book
It definitely travels through time and has some sort of blending capability, anyhow. Whether it's meant to be the same... that's a fair point, although it's a very *distinctive* reused set. All I was really going for in my post, though, was to head off suggestions of that ship as counting as 'seeing another TARDIS', because it explicitly does not fit what I'm intending.
Edit: Wait, is your argument solely on the assumption that the lodgermobile is a different vehicle to the Silence's ship?
Scooter155
Member
While I enjoy the speculation, and I like seeing where everybody's heads can spiral out to in trying to figure out a mystery that has provided almost zero clues, I do feel like this is one of those situations where the amount of extra intrigue and inspection (introspection, as well) being layered on this mystery now is going to be looked upon, in hindsight, as being entirely Moffat's, and he will be judged for it, even IF the mystery itself isn't that convoluted or confused
So far we know that people who sacrifice themselves for the Doctor get to go to Missy's, and that Missy calls her place "heaven" and refers to the Doctor as her boyfriend. That's it.
*Ahem* Unless I missed it, we don't know that Mr. Clockwork sacrificed himself, the doctor may have pushed him. Seems pretty unlikely, but then, so does the Doctor making off-color jokes about swimming in the liquified human remains of a man whose friends just watched him die.
/snide
*EDIT* Agreed that people seem to have a problem with blaming Moffat for his stories being either too confusing or too obvious when the blame for a lot of the confusion sometimes rests on the audience.
We see him impaled, so even if it *was* pulling him out of time before he dies, there's still a socking great hole in him.
So if it does turn out to be 'pulling him out of the time stream before he dies', let's call it a plot hole.
Just spitballing here but it's probably because the Doctor described the ship as someone's attempt at creating the TARDIS.
Scooter155
Member
Oh yeah, obviously. Just, as a robot, it's conceivable that he could survive the wound and be repaired. As I stated earlier though, I'm pretty sure we saw the woman in the Dalek explicitly disintegrated, so I think Missy or her "Heaven" has some kind of supernatural ability to bring people back from the dead.
Oh, really? OK, then I just remember wrong and shouldn't post anymore... whoops. Is that in Impossible Astronaut or Day of the Moon?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's The Lodger.
CRAIG: What? What?
DOCTOR: Oh. Oh, of course. The time engine isn't in the flat, the time engine is the flat. Someone's attempt to build a TARDIS.
I think it's very heavily implied that the clockwork jumped out of his own volition, the Doctor's line immediately preceding it being essentially a confirmation. Something like "Of course we know one of us is lying about our programming" implying the clockwork was lying about his programming preventing him from hurting himself, meaning he in fact could jump out to his death.
Also I love that people are already grumbling about the logic and using terms like "plot hole" for something we have literally know knowledge of at all
Scooter155
Member
Wow, I don't remember that at all, and I really like the Lodger. But then... there's no reason to assume the Silence ship is the same ship, or even related at all... just like the endless corridors re-used time and again don't imply the same location, or the oval office also being the ship bridge in Christmas Carol and the control center of the Tesselecta doesn't mean anything except that they're re-using a set to save on costs. Right?
Also I love that people are already grumbling about the logic and using terms like "plot hole" for something we have literally know knowledge of at all
I was just punning. On the fact that it's a literal hole.
Yeah, I'm liking it too. Was genuinely surprised when it faded to white as she was dying. Hopefully it has been thought out well this time, because it's working well so far.
Scooter155
Member
I think it's very heavily implied that the clockwork jumped out of his own volition, the Doctor's line immediately preceding it being essentially a confirmation. Something like "Of course we know one of us is lying about our programming" implying the clockwork was lying about his programming preventing him from hurting himself, meaning he in fact could jump out to his death.
Also I love that people are already grumbling about the logic and using terms like "plot hole" for something we have literally know knowledge of at all
Well, the doctor says it's against his programming to kill, and the robot says it's against his programming to suicide, and then the doctor says one of them is lying. It could be either, but the thing is, we know the doctor is willing to kill, so if only one of them is really lying then it's the doctor.
I think the robot jumped, just pointing out that it's not 100% for certain yet.
Well, if the look of the thing suggests to the Doctor that it's an attempt to build a Tardis, even if it's not the same ship, the fact that it looks the same would suggest that it's another attempt to build a Tardis.
in DOTM he looks at what the silence are building, again references it as a time-ship wannabe and states he saw it derelict elsewhere recently, and then says "I think we're about to find out how that happens"
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