Doctor Who Series 8 |OT| We've fucking time-travelled, yes?

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just watched the episode on BBC America.

Good stuff.

I laughed at Rusty's parting line to the Doctor, specifically with the stare from the eyestalk. Like he just dropped some ether on his soul and stared dead at his face as long as he could. "Yeah, I said it. Marinate on that for a minute."
 
That was really good. Definitely one of the best episodes of the last few years.

I love that Ford took the Dalek story in a different direction, with a lot of the episode being set inside the Dalek and not even overtly involving them. Dalek's having existential crises have been done before (such as in Jubilee and Dalek), but this was different enough to still feel fresh. The Dalek being inspired by seeing how life continued to spring up in spite of everything they did was a really interesting concept, and I liked how the episode addressed the prejudices of the Doctor firsthand, and actually acknowledged some of the problems with how the Daleks have been treated by him over the years. It was great to see Clara call the Doctor out (this was one of the first times I've really liked her, as opposed to just tolerating her), and to see the Doctor actually getting his hopes up about being able to redeem a Dalek (and possibly more) in some way.

This made the climax of the episode really strong emotionally, from both the Doctor and the Dalek point of view. You can feel how he is crushed when the Dalek starts talking about hate. It's a callback to Dalek, but it works well, and it shows both the problems with trying to redeem a Dalek as well as the possibilities which do exist. Capaldi is on top form throughout the whole thing, too. He really sells the darker, more manipulative Doctor ala McCoy very well, especially early in the episode when he allows the soldier to die in order to follow the trace of what happens to him, but he also shows his compassionate side as well. I think he's handling the idea of a darker Doctor very well.

From an imaginative point of view (having the climax of the story being the Doctor trying to broaden the view of a character by opening up their consciousness and showing them things they could never imagine), an atmospheric point of view (just about every scene inside the Dalek) and from a dramatic point of view, this is very solid stuff. It's not an all time classic, but it's comfortably one of the better episodes of the entire Moffat era. I haven't really felt this good about an episode since A Town Called Mercy.

Ford shows his skills when it comes to fleshing out the supporting cast, as well as peppering in some very snappy dialogue. He also goes back to the reverse TARDIS introduction scene which he used in The Waters of Mars as well, but you're allowed to repeat yourself at least once. Even Murray Gold's music at least stays out of the way for most of the episode, even if it isn't particularly great. The only real issue I have is when Gretchen's death scene is immediately followed up by the bit with Missy. It was poorly edited and unnecessary, and it sucked out some of the drama from her sacrifice.

Hopefully this is not the last we hear from Phil Ford on the show. He's two for two now, and he was always a reliable writer on The Sarah Jane Adventures. This is what Doctor Who needs more of.
 
I liked the episode a bit but I'm not sure how I feel about a 'grimdark Doctor' that the stories and Capaldi's Doctor seem to be taking on.

It's like Moffat looked at The Name Of The Doctor and thought "Remember how dark and desperate it felt? Let's do it again."

Next week will be different and more back to a Matt Smith like episode, but this whole episode was a focus on Capaldi's Doctor with everyone else as secondary. You could probably have put any other companion from the show's history in the episode and it wouldn't have changed anything. Still, it is probably one of the best Who episodes in a long time.

And Danny Pink annoys me less than Mickey. It almost feels like Clara is turning into Rose but different.
 
I missed the premiere last week due to moving so I caught the repeat as well as tonight's new one.

Deep Breath:
Waaaaay too long. Really could have cut some of the fat out.
There were good moments though. Capaldi really shined as the Doctor once he wasn't a gibbering post-regeneration mess. Some fairly spooky scenes (Clara holding her breath, the interrogation). Not the worst post-regen story but could have been better.

Into the Dalek:
Really good. Another attempt at turning the Daleks good (Evil of the Daleks anyone?) but this time it slightly failed. Rusty doesn't want to kill other life, but his hatred towards the Daleks is another destructive path altogether.
Twelve continues to show he's a much darker incarnation this time around. Letting that soldier die so they can survive.
Clara was great here too.
 
DoctorWho said:
Bowing out of the Doctor Who thing in Toronto now that Gillan is out. It's just not the same without the three of them.

Getting a refund feels like it's going to be a pain but at least they are offering them. I actually had to go down to the convention just to hand in my ticket. I thought they would issue the refund on the spot but now they seem to be playing email tag with the ticket company.
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I wanted to check it out, but it was sold out by the time I decided on getting tickets

From the buzz at Fan Expo, they were the big guests this year. Karen dropping out sucked, though. Selfie's taking up all of her time.

I was commenting on the very low/zero likelihood of them appearing in any future Fan Expo, and it's huge that we at least got two out of three.

Going to watch Into the Dalek soon. I will update the OP with more stuff in the next day or two - promise!
 
I'm probably in the minority, but I thought it was a pretty weak episode. Mostly for the overly cliched premise and everyone making stupid decisions. Capaldi was great in it, Clara continues to be boring. Pink seems interesting, which is good because he was the element I was worried about.
 
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Heh, found another Who reference in Tiny Tower Vegas besides the TARDIS. The screwdriver even blinks.
 
Great episode! Very visually appealing as well-just like Deep Breath. I love that 12 really seems to have lost his moral compass.

Can't wait to see more of Danny.
 
fuuck i love capaldi's dont give a shit attitude. it's so refreshing after the last few docs.


that line "he's the first layer if you want to say a few words" got me hahahha
 
That psychedelic scene really reminded me of classic Who and I was just giggling to myself imagining possible audience reactions, I love the direction they're going with. Weird how I'm loving this so much, and I watched all the leaks. Capaldi is GOAT.
 
As someone who didn't start watching Doctor Who until 2008 or so, I'm really frigging tired of Daleks. I wish they at least didn't use them so often.
 
petethepanda said:
As someone who didn't start watching Doctor Who until 2008 or so, I'm really frigging tired of Daleks. I wish they at least didn't use them so often.
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They have to use them or they'll lose the rights. In series 6 there was a Dalek on screen for about a minute and that was enough but I think that was an exception.
 
Would have been a lot more enjoyable without yet another army of <insert_who_monster> killing nobodies in slow motion while accomplishing practically nothing. Dalek should have set this standard years ago, but here we are.
 
The music in this episode was just amazingly awesome to me. A total tonal shift from Gold, and very reminiscent of some of the 70's and 80's incidental music. This new era just makes me so happy.
 
I'm absolutely loving Capaldi as the Doctor.

I hope Pink becomes a companion. I always enjoy it when there are multiple companions.
 
Capaldi is great in just about everything else I've seen him in, but I haven't liked either of these episodes. Clara remains completely uninteresting, just a total zero as a companion.
 
Mariolee said:
Daleks are pure hate. To be a bad Dalek would be to use that hate only to kill. To be a good Dalek would be to have that hate but try your damndest to suppress it and to do good instead.

That's what made Rusty a bad Dalek and that's what makes the Doctor a good one. Daleks are analogous to pure hatred.

C'mon maharg, Moffat has a lot stuff to be criticized, but I actually liked that line.
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Well, this episode wasn't written by Moffat, so I dunno what that would have to do with anything. Don't get me wrong, I liked the episode quite a lot, though I felt at times like I was just watching a mashup of "Dalek" and Fantastic Voyage making it a bit derivative, but it was a lot of fun and it was the first dalek episode to really measure up to Dalek for me (I don't count Parting of the Ways because I think the daleks were kind of set-pieces in a much more interesting other story there).

I guess I see how what you're saying applies, but even then I find the whole Good Man/Good Dalek/Bad Dalek wordplay a bit... forced and pat, I guess.

On a whole other note, I have no issue with the Vastra/Jenny pointing out they're married thing and think people wouldn't be so up in arms about it if it were a straight couple doing it (and it's kind of something Moffat does with all his couples, both in and out of Who, so I feel like I have some evidence to back that assertion up). Not out of any kind of malicious intent, mind you, just because it's something they're used to and this is really not.
 
I'm liking Capaldi so far. I think they are going interesting places with his questions about whether he is truly a good man.

I mean, you have a man who has spent the better part of 2000 years in conflict with the worst the Universe has to offer. You have the Time War. You have 300-500 years of conflict on Trenzalore before the latest regeneration. How could you not hate after all of that.

I think they are finally going address a certain...aspect...of The Doctor soon. I don't think he is this...aspect, but I think it's a part of him, aching to be free.

Capaldi could take that...aspect...and knock out of the park. I hope they do it.
 
I'm loving Capaldi and enjoying the series so far.

But I admit I'm easily pleased when it comes to Doctor Who. I can usually find something to enjoy in an episode.

Really liked how obvious the whole "Let's fix the Dalek!" "Oh no, he's fixed and now he's a space nazi again" was.
 
The Doctor brushing off the soldier's death by the antibodies was cold. "He was dead anyway" and his brief/fake abandonment of Clara hammer the point home that he is ruthless, but his attempt at changing Rusty showed that he's at least trying to be a good guy, like Clara said.

It feels like Moffat set up Clara's departure. She's still unsure of the Doctor and his coldness and Danny Pink seems set to be her love interest.
 
Mutanthands said:
I'm liking Capaldi so far. I think they are going interesting places with his questions about whether he is truly a good man.

I mean, you have a man who has spent the better part of 2000 years in conflict with the worst the Universe has to offer. You have the Time War. You have 300-500 years of conflict on Trenzalore before the latest regeneration. How could you not hate after all of that.

I think they are finally going address a certain...aspect...of The Doctor soon. I don't think he is this...aspect, but I think it's a part of him, aching to be free.

Capaldi could take that...aspect...and knock out of the park. I hope they do it.
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Are you William Shatner?
 
You can't do the Valeyard because the Valeyard only exists as one solitary incarnation - the whole point of his existence is that he needs to succeed against the sixth to get further incarnations. But he fails.

The Valeyard can only ever be the Valeyard we've already seen.

Now, the idea that Missy could be short for Mistress... that's way more plausible.
 
Dalek said:
Are you William Shatner?
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Let me check my toupee, and I'll get back to you.

I was just being coy. It's speculation, so I should have just come out and said it. Valeyard. Valeyard, Valeyard, Valeyard.

Capaldi would make a excellent Valeyard. But would hope it only be a part of him, since he also makes a excellent Doctor.

This is the time the Valeyard should be coming. They have followed continuity from the original series closely. He's coming.

Missy, I have no idea at this point. I would guess that she's metaphysical, rather than a corporeal being like The Master or The Rani.
 
BobbyRoberts said:
You can't do the Valeyard because the Valeyard only exists as one solitary incarnation - the whole point of his existence is that he needs to succeed against the sixth to get further incarnations. But he fails.

The Valeyard can only ever be the Valeyard we've already seen.

Now, the idea that Missy could be short for Mistress... that's way more plausible.
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He's an aspect of The Doctor made flesh. He needed to win the trial and destroy Doctor number 6 to continue existing outside of The Doctor, which raises all sorts of paradoxes since he wasn't supposed to manifest until Doctor number 13.

As long as The Doctor is there, the Valeyard is there too. He can come back.
 
Mutanthands said:
He needed to win the trial and destroy Doctor number 6 to continue existing outside of The Doctor, which raises all sorts of paradoxes since he wasn't supposed to manifest until Doctor number 13.

As long as The Doctor is there, the Valeyard is there too. He can come back.
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Nah, I don't see how that follows. He had his one shot and he blew it. There is no other shot. That's the only form the Valeyard can take as a result.
 
I will never understand why anyone wants the Valeyard to actually come back. It's about the most hamfisted version of that concept possible, and honestly wasn't even that well implemented to begin with. I think they've managed to explore the Doctor's dark side in so many more imaginative and nuanced ways since the Valeyard that going back to that would be a huge step backwards.
 
maharg said:
I will never understand why anyone wants the Valeyard to actually come back. It's about the most hamfisted version of that concept possible, and honestly wasn't even that well implemented to begin with. I think they've managed to explore the Doctor's dark side in so many more imaginative and nuanced ways since the Valeyard that going back to that would be a huge step backwards.
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Yeah, I'd rather see the return of the Dream Lord. Wonder how screwed up that would be.. O_o
 
maharg said:
I think they've managed to explore the Doctor's dark side in so many more imaginative and nuanced ways since the Valeyard that going back to that would be a huge step backwards.
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Hell, Capaldi as the Doctor with 13 brand new regenerations is, in two episodes, a better example of exploring the Doctor's dark side than the Valeyard ever was.

Caelus said:
Yeah, I'd rather see the return of the Dream Lord. Wonder how screwed up that would be.. O_o
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I'd love to see Toby Jones in a riff on Capaldi's magician costume, fucking with his head even MORE severely than he did with Smith.
 
maharg said:
Well, this episode wasn't written by Moffat, so I dunno what that would have to do with anything. Don't get me wrong, I liked the episode quite a lot, though I felt at times like I was just watching a mashup of "Dalek" and Fantastic Voyage making it a bit derivative, but it was a lot of fun and it was the first dalek episode to really measure up to Dalek for me (I don't count Parting of the Ways because I think the daleks were kind of set-pieces in a much more interesting other story there).

I guess I see how what you're saying applies, but even then I find the whole Good Man/Good Dalek/Bad Dalek wordplay a bit... forced and pat, I guess.

On a whole other note, I have no issue with the Vastra/Jenny pointing out they're married thing and think people wouldn't be so up in arms about it if it were a straight couple doing it (and it's kind of something Moffat does with all his couples, both in and out of Who, so I feel like I have some evidence to back that assertion up). Not out of any kind of malicious intent, mind you, just because it's something they're used to and this is really not.
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Yeah it totally slipped my mind that Phil Ford wrote this. Good stuff. I also really liked Asylum of the Daleks, but Dalek is still pretty great. I definitely can understand why you would thing it's a bit forced but I thought it was very effective as a line especially seeing Capaldi's facial response.

I really love Capaldi as the Doctor right now. So good.
 
Ok, so I know I mentioned the whole Capaldi mentioning "Roman parts" to the cyborg from Deep Breath and it being potential foreshadowing, but I was happy to accept it was just mere co-incidence and, as another Gaffer said, just to show how old it was. Did anyone notice the display/school project Clara walked past on her way to the TARDIS? Yep, it was on Rome.

I'm not saying it's Rome. But it's Rome.

Crackpot theories aside, I enjoyed Into The Dalek immensely. Capaldi's darker Doctor really is a breath of fresh air and the tone sets up some great tense moments (especially with Clara who now seems to actually have some character depth).
 
Curse you Danny Pink. Clara was pretty much drooling over him. To have a goddess like her hitting on him while he just blubbered about like a fool, why that rustles my jimmies.
 
hamchan said:
Curse you Danny Pink. Clara was pretty much drooling over him. To have a goddess like her hitting on him while he just blubbered about like a fool, why that rustles my jimmies.
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I have a feeling it might get worse. I was entertained in the beginning but that bit in the end was just weirdly awkward. He seems to hate himself so much, and it gets to the point that we as an audience are beginning to wonder why we shouldn't hate him as well.
 
More Danny Pink, less Vastra/Jenny/Strax (none at all would be best, but that's wishful thinking.)

Enjoyed this one much more than the opener, that's for sure.
 
A very good episode, I quite liked it. They did a nice reference to a movie that once had people being shrunk and inserted into people as well.

When it comes to Pink, he killed some people, he feels guilty about it. He was a soldier, this is bound to rub against the Doctor and maybe help him get over the whole soldier thing which is likely a side effect of the great Time War. As said before he was great friends with the Brig once. But for him it has been several life times and hundreds of years ago.

If Jenna goes after this season they got an out with Pink on that, unless they plan to make Pink a companion? If not maybe soldier girl will come join up one day when the Doctor comes across her after the soldier life.

If they axed the scene of Rusty blowing up the ship that means Rusty may return one day and hopefully he can. Why not. Could make for some interesting TV.

I really like how the Doctor is being portrayed, he's not going around giving big speeches the way the previous two did. It feels like the Doctor is gone back to being his "old self" after knowing everything that came before but is now acting upon it. Only he does have a conscience so some of what he might do eats at him. Doesn't stop him from getting past some of the things that happen, the soldier being killed is a good example of that and he wasn't going to be weepy about it which is nice.

Plus now all I can think of is how the Daleks eat human soup.
 
Now that it has been aired, I can put my theory to you all. (Instead of just the spoilers thread)
Danny is said to be a 'lady killer' by his colleagues and he didn't answer when he was asked if he'd killed anyone who wasn't a soldier.
My theory is that the tears and his confidence around women has been shot to pieces because he accidentally killed a woman while on duty and is haunted by it.
 
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