That list is right. You got it in one, well done.
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
- Thread starter Quick
- Start date
That list is right. You got it in one, well done.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
1. Amy/Rory
2. Clara
3. S1 Rose
4. Martha
5. Amy
6. S2 Rose
7. Donna
2. Clara
3. S1 Rose
4. Martha
5. Amy
6. S2 Rose
7. Donna
I liked Chariot's version of this post better.
Having hybrid mean a partnership of two races than a single person who embodies two races is a twist on the word's meaning; it's not what the word actually means, yes, but it's a twist on it, see. Your example is kind of nonsense. There's no parallel to draw between two people marrying and two people riding naked on dinosaurs. There IS a parallel, however, between a creature of two races and a partnership of two races -- both ideas pertain to two races being represented by a single noun.
More than that, though, the big subversiveness of the hybrid twist is that instead of building to the Hybrid as some generic big bad enemy, it builds up to the Doctor and Clara themselves as their own enemy.
Rose/Jack, Donna, Clara, Martha, Amy/Rory
I quite liked the idea of the hybrid being the two of them together, and it was a theory that I had quite briefly.
I liked the idea that they were a dangerous combination because of the extremes that they go to for each other and the Doctor was quite literally willing to destroy all of time and space to save her. He was right, it had to stop.
The episode definitely portrayed him in a villainous light. Clara even says at one point "Tell me what happened to the doctor" as if she can tell that he isn't the same.
I liked the idea that they were a dangerous combination because of the extremes that they go to for each other and the Doctor was quite literally willing to destroy all of time and space to save her. He was right, it had to stop.
The episode definitely portrayed him in a villainous light. Clara even says at one point "Tell me what happened to the doctor" as if she can tell that he isn't the same.
Well stated. It also fits the classical trope of people misunderstanding a prophecy, leading to its fulfillment. Oedipus will kill his father, so he gets abandoned, rescued, then grows up and (unknowingly) kills his father.I liked Chariot's version of this post better.
Having hybrid mean a partnership of two races than a single person who embodies two races is a twist on the word's meaning; it's not what the word actually means, but it's a twist on it, see. Your example is kind of nonsense.
More than that, though, the big subversiveness of the hybrid twist is that instead of building to the Hybrid as some generic big bad enemy, it builds up to the Doctor and Clara themselves as their own enemy.
The "hybrid" being one person was the Time Lords interpretation of the prophecy. The Doctor having something to do with its creation caused him to run away, eventually meet Clara, then get so desperate to save her he is willing to shatter the universe (I.e. the two of them will cause the destruction). Works out fine to me.
Clara's theme is great. It's going to suck that we'll never hear it again (or at least in the near future). Capaldi's guitar rendition of it is like the best sendoff.
Adding to this: He also tells her that he doesn't always have to be the Doctor (or something along those lines).
Adding to this: He also tells her that he doesn't always have to be the Doctor (or something along those lines).
It doesn't have to be a generic enemy though, it could have been any number of cool things. What did this/last episode accomplish and add to the story we've had thus far this season? It's just bad story telling. The truth dial thing was such a letdown. We've had NOTHING added to the doctor's life as a result of these last two episodes. His memory and experiences with Clara have mostly been wiped. There's no progression. He didn't learn any lesson. We don't have anything to keep us anticipating new episodes over the break. There's nothing. Missy was only name dropped. Say The Master showed up and was like "ah ha Doctor, I'll get you next time" and then was gone. THAT two seconds would be more progression than we got in the whole hour of the finale.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, but a hybrid is one thing. That's not an interpretation, that's the literal meaning of the word hybrid "a thing made by combining two different elements". A hybrid being two separate entities is a contradiction in terms. Trying to justify that as a twist is stupid, it's not a twist, it's a contradiction.
Well, the BBC America promo running all season has that clip "same old, same old, just The Doctor and Clara in the Tardis." Two separate people combined into one team.
Also technically, BBC:A spoiled the ending before the season started.
That's not what hybrid is. That's why I brought marriage up. A marriage is not a hybrid, it's not a synonym for union.
This is kind of why I used marriage in my example as well, lol
Odd, I seem to recall the line "we are gathered here today to celebrate the union of these two people" at my wedding.
I don't think we'll be convincing each other on this one.
Wouldn't your marriage be considered a partnership? Or a companionship, perhaps?
Your offspring would be a hybrid of you and your significant other. (this might be a terrible example)
The Doctor could be a hybrid if he truly was part-human.
I don't know. I'm not too invested in it.
Are you shitting me? That's what I said. It's not a synonym for union and a marriage is not a hybrid. You really don't know what the word "hybrid" means? Cran did explain it last page. It's not two beings in a figuratively union, it's literally two things mashed into one thing.
BrokenFiction
Member
Donna being at or near the top of most lists (including mine) just screams from the rooftops that we need another companion who doesn't put up with the Doctor's shit.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Amen.
But not because they're bored or they're jerks. I think that's a very critical distinction.
Or doesn't fall in love with him. I swore Clara was going to tell the doctor that she loved him and he needs to let her go if he truly loves her too (during that "moment" when she found out he waited 4 billion years for her.)
BrokenFiction
Member
CloudyTuba
Member
So the entire hybrid thing's payoff was just that the Doctor and Clara travelling together was dangerous and it was all a huge misunderstanding? There was an entire prophecy that revolved around it? And then immortal universe-breaking Clara ran off in a flying 50s diner?
That's some major bullshit right there. Should have just cut the hybrid shit out from the series and played it straight. Whole idea felt half baked and in need of a couple more script revisions.
The Doctor didnt need a prophecy to figure out that his Clara addiction was a bad idea. Come up with a better reason for the confession dial. Tie it more directly into gallifrey's current predicament of being frozen in its own pocket universe, rather than shoving that entire major plot point into a corner and covering it up with "Well I guess they got out on their own."
And the multiple "me" fakeouts are like the stuff of embarrassing jokes that make your friends cringe and tell you to stop. The cliffhanger ending of Heaven Sent amounted to a "Who's on first" joke. For real?
I loved the episode when I first watched it and I still enjoy it a lot for the many things it did right, but the more I reflect on it the more I think "What the fuck is wrong with Moffat ruining all of his own plots and setups? Why does he hate himself?"
That's some major bullshit right there. Should have just cut the hybrid shit out from the series and played it straight. Whole idea felt half baked and in need of a couple more script revisions.
The Doctor didnt need a prophecy to figure out that his Clara addiction was a bad idea. Come up with a better reason for the confession dial. Tie it more directly into gallifrey's current predicament of being frozen in its own pocket universe, rather than shoving that entire major plot point into a corner and covering it up with "Well I guess they got out on their own."
And the multiple "me" fakeouts are like the stuff of embarrassing jokes that make your friends cringe and tell you to stop. The cliffhanger ending of Heaven Sent amounted to a "Who's on first" joke. For real?
I loved the episode when I first watched it and I still enjoy it a lot for the many things it did right, but the more I reflect on it the more I think "What the fuck is wrong with Moffat ruining all of his own plots and setups? Why does he hate himself?"
Link
The Autumn Wind
I feel like Moffat thinks he's being really clever, but just comes up with ideas that don't hold up at all if the viewer puts any thought into it.
Mof: "Oh, you know the whole Gallifrey being in a pocket universe thing that we could explore for a whole season? Yeah, let's handwave that and say Gallifrey is back and not explain it whatsoever"
1) Amy
2) Rory
3) Rose
4) Mickey
5) Captain Jack
6) Martha
7) River Song
8) Clara
9) Handles
10) Adam Mitchell
11) All of those one-off "companions" they list on the Wiki
12) Donna
APZonerunner
Member
Basing this not just on the strength of the companion but on what they bring with them too in terms of peripheral characters, family etc:
1) Donna
2) Rose
3) Rory
4) Jack
5) Amy
5) Martha
6) River
7) Mickey
8) Clara
If I was taking Rose on her own (IE not counting how wonderful I thought Jackie & Pete were as recurring characters) she'd probably drop a few places and be between Jack and Amy.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I generally feel the highs of Season 9 were higher than those of 8, and the lows roughly as bad.
Capaldi felt so much better in the role this season than last, so in my opinion this year has been stronger.
I'm not at all sure how I'll feel about Moffat's run when it's over, and suspect I won't really have an opinion worth offering until we're knee deep in another showrunner's run.
Capaldi felt so much better in the role this season than last, so in my opinion this year has been stronger.
I'm not at all sure how I'll feel about Moffat's run when it's over, and suspect I won't really have an opinion worth offering until we're knee deep in another showrunner's run.
That pretty much sums up every single one of Moffat's season finales.
This.
The Doctor "Four knocks..."
Cut to me freaking out that we're at the end of the universe and YANA is outside...
Cut to me disappointed it's just that other girl again, ugh
Bobby Roberts
Banned
We've brought it up before, but this is essentially the entirety of Clara's arc as a character. Or rather, the collection of half-started and abandoned arcs used to build a rickety bridge like a game of World of Goo.
Clara was:
A Nanny. But then she stopped being a nanny and the children she was nannying were essentially wiped from all existence and it wasn't brought up again. And then she was a teacher. She had a family, and then they didn't matter, and then they might as well have never existed. And she was a teacher long enough for her to have met Danny Pink, and then we were to think her and Danny Pink were going to end up together and have time traveling babies, but then Danny Pink became an insufferable prick, and it didn't really matter because he just became a plot point that Clara would reference every now and again, when she ended up not being a teacher or a nanny and instead became a TOTAL DAREDEVIL DOCTOR WANNABE except she wasn't, really, we were just told she was, just like were were told every aspect of her personality instead of letting her develop it on her own.
I mean, that paragraph reads like it could have been a fun, interesting, varied character arc. But it isn't because it's just a bunch of stop-starts and abandoned ideas that were never executed well enough to bring any of it to more than momentary life.
The man can't kill any of his characters and keep them dead, but he has no problem taking the heads off every semi-decent idea he's had and letting them tumble gracelessly into a basket that he just kicks out of frame as soon as you're not looking.
ClivePwned
Member
oh, when you say it like that, Moffat's a monster.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I agree with all of this except the bolded-- we really did see Clara get reckless (and addicted) long before we were told, to the point that blogs and reviews were wondering if last season was going to end up with her dead.
But the larger point really stands up well, even so.
CloudyTuba
Member
Yeah we do keep coming back to the same things, I know you and I have commented on it before multiple times. It's all true. Hopefully the fresh start next season takes us to greener pastures.
What I heard in my head reading that entire paragraph. I used to be able to roll with it when Moffat kicked one plot to the gutter in favor of another but it just happens too often now. I'm getting really tired of it. Give me some god damn continuity and payoff.
BrokenFiction
Member
I'm not saying I disagree with you, because I don't to a large degree. However, when you read this from the opposite perspective, it makes Clara sound like a self-centered narcissistic dick - exactly what her character turned into. She didn't care about anyone or anything - her family, Danny, her job, etc - except for the adventure. She wanted to be the Doctor so badly she actually burned all her relationships just like he did.
I didn't think Clara was in love with the Doctor. I think she was in love with the idea of the Doctor, and of being the Doctor, and definitely looked up to the Doctor. But they seemed to have more of a close friendship than anything romantic.
This is actually the plot of the Christmas episode...lol
My whole thing with Clara is I liked her with the 11th Doctor and there was some genuine chemistry between the two (or at least the people playing them). She jumped into the Doctor's timestream -- she's not normal, no matter how she tries to pretend to be (btw, why haven't they dealt with the long term effects of that on the Doctor beyond the 50th anniversary special?). So her developing an attitude that she could be like the Doctor was natural (albeit convoluted). I too thought after they met back up when the Doctor was trapped for billions of years her telling him she loved him.
But at some point, you're just ready for the Doctor (and the show) to move on. The Doctor doesn't need Clara -- why would he even bother hanging on to an ordinary human girl? The Season 8 opener had me hoping that he would indeed move on or their relationship would change where Clara realizes she doesn't need to stick around and can walk away. The season 8 finale really had me hoping for that and part of me is wondering if this whole season was still Doctor & Clara with the aliens from the last Christmas special on them.
As much as people complain about Steven Moffat, he's essentially trying to top his first season with Matt Smith as the Doctor. He shouldn't still be writing Clara and the Doctor as seemingly star crossed partnership (friendship? love? Who knows). The problem is I don't know what character arc would be a good replacement. I just know that every storyline possibility that has been raised is tossed aside for something that would work with the 11th Doctor.
But at some point, you're just ready for the Doctor (and the show) to move on. The Doctor doesn't need Clara -- why would he even bother hanging on to an ordinary human girl? The Season 8 opener had me hoping that he would indeed move on or their relationship would change where Clara realizes she doesn't need to stick around and can walk away. The season 8 finale really had me hoping for that and part of me is wondering if this whole season was still Doctor & Clara with the aliens from the last Christmas special on them.
As much as people complain about Steven Moffat, he's essentially trying to top his first season with Matt Smith as the Doctor. He shouldn't still be writing Clara and the Doctor as seemingly star crossed partnership (friendship? love? Who knows). The problem is I don't know what character arc would be a good replacement. I just know that every storyline possibility that has been raised is tossed aside for something that would work with the 11th Doctor.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
I enjoyed Clara so much more thi season without Danny. I didn't hate Danny or Clara, but the way they were written together I didn't like.
I'm fine with how it ended. I said in the Raven episode that there'd have to be a "run you clever boy" before Clara was done. Just took a bit longer to get it.
I'm fine with how it ended. I said in the Raven episode that there'd have to be a "run you clever boy" before Clara was done. Just took a bit longer to get it.
excelsiorlef
Member
Put this in a pile of Moffatt episodes that are only fantastic because of the acting.
Phenomenal work from Capaldi and Coleman.
I hated the resurrection of Clara until the very end, but the idea of Clara and Me travelling around is just too awesome to hate and it still doesn't undo the death she'll have.
Phenomenal work from Capaldi and Coleman.
I hated the resurrection of Clara until the very end, but the idea of Clara and Me travelling around is just too awesome to hate and it still doesn't undo the death she'll have.
tonysidaway
Member
It's a prophecy. Do you need to have it spelled out? This was discussed in the episode.
Look guys, Moffat obviously wanted to invoke the "those exact words"-trope. Know from prophecies like "no man can kill him", leading to a woman or a child killing him. The prophecy remains correct, but the expectations were subverted. Here the prophecy was just plain wrong and Moffat still tried to make it like some genius interpretation and now people are arguing here that words have no values.
Words can kill.
Words can kill.
excelsiorlef
Member
Uhhhh
"The Hybrid will stand in the ruins of Gallifrey, and destroy a billion hearts to heal his own."
Doctor and Ashilda stood in the ruins of Galifrey and he destoyed at least a billion versions of himself to get to Galifrey.
Everything in the prophecy happened.