Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons

Capaldi calls him Doctor Who in his fan letters (unless they were edited).

Anyway, Clara is either suggesting that saving people is a bad idea and that the Doctor shouldn't, or she's agreed that it's a good idea and picking that single moment to derail the effort by bringing up something not germane to the task of saving the children. Completely out of character and boneheaded either way.
 
Roussow said:
The first scene where Clara was bought back, where the Time Lord mutters, "We have to tell her. We always tell them", reminded me so much of every scene that the crew used the Resurrection Gauntlet in Torchwood.
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Yeah, I got a proper flashback when they said that.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
Anyway, Clara is either suggesting that saving people is a bad idea and that the Doctor shouldn't, or she's agreed that it's a good idea and picking that single moment to derail the effort by bringing up something not germane to the task of saving the children. Completely out of character and boneheaded either way.
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What's happening here is that the writer is dramatising, through character exposition, the ethical issues in the situation. Doctor Who takes up a rather flip technological proposal which Clara had first suggested. "If you can't save them all, save who you can. The Tardis. It's a lifeboat, isn't it? Not everybody has to die." She said that. She now plays devil's advocate. She feels this is a half-baked idea. There is an author's subtext that Doctor Who needs to try harder to find a better solution. And he eventually does. Just let the trees take care of it. I'll assume that we're still conveniently ignoring the ridiculous technobabble that passes for scientific reasoning in Doctor Who. We never complain about that because it's just entertainment.
 
tonysidaway said:
Yes, possibly is a generational thing. He's about my age so I wouldn't be surprised.
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We had this conversation a while back, but I like calling him Doctor Who too. It helps when you're in a conversation with people who don't think about the show as much as us fans, at least they'll know what you're talking about.

Moffat and Tennant and tons of others also call him Doctor Who when they're talking about the character outside the very fan-focused thing, like commentaries and the like.
 
tonysidaway said:
What's happening here is that the writer is dramatising, through character exposition, the ethical issues in the situation. Doctor Who takes up a rather flip technological proposal which Clara had first suggested. "If you can't save them all, save who you can. The Tardis. It's a lifeboat, isn't it? Not everybody has to die." She said that. She now plays devil's advocate. She feels this is a half-baked idea. There is an author's subtext that Doctor Who needs to try harder to find a better solution. And he eventually does. Just let the trees take care of it. I'll assume that we're still conveniently ignoring the ridiculous technobabble that passes for scientific reasoning in Doctor Who. We never complain about that because it's just entertainment.
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Like the Bible, the author can be wrong. You can treat every episode as sacrosanct with onus on the viewer to rightfully agree with every action taken and every line uttered, or you can view an episode as what it is intended to be.

All of it is entertainment, entertainment isn't by definition shallow. What you get from it comes from how engaging you find it. And the technobabble can also go horribly wrong where it stretches credibility too far, as in Kill The Moon, or involves just waving a Sonic Screwdriver when you have written yourself into a corner. Getting complained about just the same.

In The Forest Of The Night was a story shoehorned into a show which didn't suit it, during a series that didn't fit it, requiring the characters to also be shoehorned into it. Causing a host of problems when viewed as what it is, entertainment and just one part of a larger whole.

It's nice you liked it, but there are plenty of people who didn't. Somewhere out there is someone trying to explain the deeper intent of the writers of Under The Dome, and how it was all a misunderstood masterpiece that we could all take life-lessons from, and I'd be quite concerned for them.
 
tonysidaway said:
What's happening here is that the writer is dramatising, through character exposition, the ethical issues in the situation. Doctor Who takes up a rather flip technological proposal which Clara had first suggested. "If you can't save them all, save who you can. The Tardis. It's a lifeboat, isn't it? Not everybody has to die." She said that. She now plays devil's advocate. She feels this is a half-baked idea. There is an author's subtext that Doctor Who needs to try harder to find a better solution. And he eventually does. Just let the trees take care of it. I'll assume that we're still conveniently ignoring the ridiculous technobabble that passes for scientific reasoning in Doctor Who. We never complain about that because it's just entertainment.
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This is not at all how it plays out in tone during the episode. It plays like giving up, which they do, which the story *needs* them to do, so that the trees can save them. It's horrible in at least three different ways. No reading of it makes Clara sensible or compassionate in that line, which is what she would usually be.

It's wholly possible that the writer meant it the way you describe it, but that's not how it was acted or directed.
 
Boem said:
We had this conversation a while back, but I like calling him Doctor Who too. It helps when you're in a conversation with people who don't think about the show as much as us fans, at least they'll know what you're talking about.

Moffat and Tennant and tons of others also call him Doctor Who when they're talking about the character outside the very fan-focused thing, like commentaries and the like.
Click to expand...

I thought Tennant hated calling him Doctor Who? There's an amazing rant from him on a commentary about it - the only reason the credits changed after Series 1 (Eccleston's era credits the character as 'Doctor Who') is because Tennant complained to RTD, who had them change the credits to read 'The Doctor' from The Christmas Invasion on. I'm curious if I've got it wrong, but I can't recall ever hearing Tennant call him 'Doctor Who' like Capaldi does.
 
tonysidaway said:
No, to contradict it. That quote is the entirety of her response to Doctor Who's suggestion that he'll use the TARDIS to save the children.

This is reasonably predictable companion behaviour, to ask the awkward questions. Not everything is about Clara becoming Doctor Who.
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It doesn't contradict it. My point was that Clara went from having complete faith in the Doctor and becoming more and more like him, to becoming a completely different character for an episode. I know it's your favorite episode with zero faults for some weird reason, but I wasn't just picking on it randomly. It was a perfect example of Clara's inconsistent character development.
 
APZonerunner said:
I thought Tennant hated calling him Doctor Who? There's an amazing rant from him on a commentary about it - the only reason the credits changed after Series 1 (Eccleston's era credits the character as 'Doctor Who') is because Tennant complained to RTD, who had them change the credits to read 'The Doctor' from The Christmas Invasion on. I'm curious if I've got it wrong, but I can't recall ever hearing Tennant call him 'Doctor Who' like Capaldi does.
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I always thought The Doctor was the most representational of who he was. He's a doctor, not Doctor Who. The question to me will hopefully always stay WHO is he. Hopefully we'll never really find out. Is he part human? What's his name? Who is he really?

Who nose...
 
Trike said:
It doesn't contradict it. My point was that Clara went from having complete faith in the Doctor and becoming more and more like him, to becoming a completely different character for an episode. I know it's your favorite episode with zero faults for some weird reason, but I wasn't just picking on it randomly. It was a perfect example of Clara's inconsistent character development.
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There are no bad episodes as far as Tony is concerned, he has said so. He has grown up with the show to the point it's an actual family member, who you love and don't criticise.

Hence his outrage at our vile, disgusting and bullying treatment of Clara.

And using an instant classic like Forest for an example of that is heresy.
 
APZonerunner said:
I thought Tennant hated calling him Doctor Who? There's an amazing rant from him on a commentary about it - the only reason the credits changed after Series 1 (Eccleston's era credits the character as 'Doctor Who') is because Tennant complained to RTD, who had them change the credits to read 'The Doctor' from The Christmas Invasion on. I'm curious if I've got it wrong, but I can't recall ever hearing Tennant call him 'Doctor Who' like Capaldi does.
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I actually heard him say that in that Tennant/Tate radio interview you linked to a day or two ago (which was a lot of fun btw, listened to the whole thing). But yeah, possibly he just slipped up (or I'm mixing up memories).
 
FortuneFaded said:
To cut a long story short, Peter Capaldi has stepped down and David Tennant has again reprised the role and Clara will have another season with the Doctor.
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LOL, rude.

The Doctor shows up in the desert and finds a diner. Walks in and finds a waitress that looks remarkably like Clara, but he doesn't recognize her (even though he tells this waitress that if he ever saw her again, he most surely would remember her). When she realizes that he truly doesn't remember her, she leaves with tears in her eyes by opening a door to a room, with Ashildr (Me) in it. That's when we realize that the waitress truly is Clara and the diner is a Tardis. Ashildr and Clara leave in their Tardis, likely to go have some adventures of their own, before she goes back to face the Raven (Clara has become the Doctor (Clara Who?) and Ashildr her companion, and no Clara's heart has not started beating). Meanwhile, The Doctor's Tardis appears, he enters, it fires up. A message has been left by Clara on the chalkboard (Run you clever boy...). The Doctor now has a legit Sonic Screwdriver and the Tardis leaves the desert.

Final scene is the Diner Tardis and the Phone Booth Tardis crossing paths in space

The stinger after the credits showed The Rebel Flesh 11th Doctor, Rory, and Amy meeting up with Sherlock in an episode of Supernatural.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
He's kidding. Cumberbatch will be the Doctor for a few specials and then Idris Elba is taking over the role.
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Stop taking the piss, I think you're doing a great disservice to Moffat, given it must have been quite a coup to get Brendan O'Carroll to play the Thirteenth Doctor as Mrs. Brown playing the Doctor. He's very busy these days, you know.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
This is not at all how it plays out in tone during the episode. It plays like giving up, which they do, which the story *needs* them to do, so that the trees can save them. It's horrible in at least three different ways. No reading of it makes Clara sensible or compassionate in that line, which is what she would usually be.

It's wholly possible that the writer meant it the way you describe it, but that's not how it was acted or directed.
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Yes, they do give up. It can be as horrible as you like, because the episode is basically a pastoral idyll. There has to be an excuse for such a visually lovely episode, and trees saving everybody's life is the excuse here. We have to realise that there is nothing much that can be done by the human actors, and they have to accept this.


We could analyse _any_ episode and find ridiculous and unreal decisions at the heart of all of them. I'm not a fan of Father's Day, The Reapers are absurd, obviously devised as an excuse for Rose to perceive a boundary to the otherwise limitless vista of time and space Doctor Who had opened up to her. Emotionally it works. I think Frank Cottrell Boyce may have been aiming for something like that. It's a much prettier episode, and the premise is strangely more compelling than "time travellers, don't be seen by yourself." This time it's something tangible.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
He's kidding. Cumberbatch will be the Doctor for a few specials and then Idris Elba is taking over the role.
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Reminds me, the missus was watching Absolutely Fabulous (series three episode three), and a young Idris Elba was in it as a male prostitute. Patsy days something to the effect that he looks a lot like Sean Connery, which made me chuckle given the whole Bond thing.
 
I loved the first 2/3s of the finale, especially Clara telling the Time Lords how hated they are and bits of the rest of the episode.

Very happy with the season.
 
Trike said:
It doesn't contradict it. My point was that Clara went from having complete faith in the Doctor and becoming more and more like him, to becoming a completely different character for an episode. I know it's your favorite episode with zero faults for some weird reason, but I wasn't just picking on it randomly. It was a perfect example of Clara's inconsistent character development.
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I don't think Clara ever has complete faith. She is not a teenager. She's essentially River Song Mk II, a very bright human who enjoys Doctor Who's company but isn't blind to his faults. Like River, she is secretly manipulated by one of his arch enemies in an attempt to destroy him. And that's basically it. In every other respect she's just your average human genius.

By the way, not my favourite episode, not even my favourite episode of the series (Listen, obviously). Faults? Yes but not more than most. I keep coming back to it because it's a focus of baffling fannish hatred. It's the hatred that concerns me. It seems to be an unavoidable consequence of fandom. The Annie Wilkes effect, if you like.
 
That was okay. Had a few good moments and I liked the twist that Clara was the one who remembered. But I just got this feeling that this was going to be a big story that would involve Clara dying on the way, so I was kinda disappointed when it just became about Clara's death.

The biggest surprise of the episode is that the preview made the Christmas special look good.
 
tonysidaway said:
I don't think Clara ever has complete faith. She is not a teenager. She's essentially River Song Mk II, a very bright human who enjoys Doctor Who's company but isn't blind to his faults. Like River, she is secretly manipulated by one of his arch enemies in an attempt to destroy him. And that's basically it. In every other respect she's just your average human genius.

By the way, not my favourite episode, not even my favourite episode of the series (Listen, obviously). Faults? Yes but not more than most. I keep coming back to it because it's a focus of baffling fannish hatred. It's the hatred that concerns me. It seems to be an unavoidable consequence of fandom. The Annie Wilkes effect, if you like.
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Yes, yes Clara does. That is kind of the point of her downfall. She had so much faith in the Doctor that she risked (and lost) her life because of it. Also your comparison to River Song is weird and inaccurate.

In the Forest of the Night has more faults than most episodes. They have been pointed out at various times in this thread and prior. That is why it is disliked. There you go, mystery solved.
 
Hell of a good finale. Man, when those 'Doomsday' bars played as The Woman came upon The Doctor in the barn... shivers. Then the sheer fear and respect he commanded. Then everything that happened once he yanked Clara out of her death moment

WSyhikr.jpg


Clara becoming The Doctor in her own right with Ashildr has her companion is a pretty baller send-off for her character. I hope 12 will be alright afterwards, but I guess him reuniting with River is gonna make for some fun hijinks!

PLEASE REUNITE WITH DONNA

tumblr_static_donna_alien_face_2.gif
 
tonysidaway said:
Yes, they do give up. It can be as horrible as you like, because the episode is basically a pastoral idyll. There has to be an excuse for such a visually lovely episode, and trees saving everybody's life is the excuse here. We have to realise that there is nothing much that can be done by the human actors, and they have to accept this.
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It's not properly established that the have to give up, therefore it comes off uncharacteristically like them ...giving up. Making the people in the show act out of character is a weakness of the script-- and it undermines us caring about them or the plot.
 
Here's a nice clear shot of the new Sonic outside of the show:

CVPRxGDWwAEzy4-.jpg


Very much in keeping with Capaldi's control room, I guess - the old screwdriver made less sense once Smith's fairytale control room was gone.
 
Finished the Eighth Doctor audio drama "Embrace the Darkness". Very mixed feelings on this one. The first two parts were very generic feeling horror, and I didn't care for the characters. In these four-parters, the supporting cast does so much work that if you don't like them it's hard for a serial to come out well.

However, I really did like the resolution of the mystery and thought it was a surprise, which is rare for Doctor Who. It all ended up very alien and at once relatable, which I suppose is what scifi is supposed to do. I don't generally consider Doctor Who to be scifi, but this is about as close as it's gotten in the audio dramas.
 
I think was the weakest of finals so far, kind of a pity
Feels like the school and Danny Pink were so important early on, just to be thrown away, cant wait for those to be concluded next season in rushed fashion. Hybrid thing is so boring
 
nephilimdj said:
I think was the weakest of finals so far, kind of a pity
Feels like the school and Danny Pink were so important early on, just to be thrown away, cant wait for those to be concluded next season in rushed fashion. Hybrid thing is so boring
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Did you skip between seasons or something? The school and Danny were resolved in the Season 8 finale.
 
nephilimdj said:
I think was the weakest of finals so far, kind of a pity
Feels like the school and Danny Pink were so important early on, just to be thrown away, cant wait for those to be concluded next season in rushed fashion. Hybrid thing is so boring
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The finale of series 8 was all about ending that storyline. I feel like it got a pretty definite ending there, did you miss those episodes?

Edit: What thefil said.
 
nephilimdj said:
I think was the weakest of finals so far, kind of a pity
Feels like the school and Danny Pink were so important early on, just to be thrown away, cant wait for those to be concluded next season in rushed fashion. Hybrid thing is so boring
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Nah, no way that was weaker than the Wedding of River Song or Name of the Doctor.

I do think Danny deserved more of a mention than just a namedrop in Face the Raven, though. I'm still not entirely sure on what his occupation before he was a teacher was.
 
MrBadger said:
Nah, no way that was weaker than the Wedding of River Song or Name of the Doctor.

I do think Danny deserved more of a mention than just a namedrop in Face the Raven, though. I'm still not entirely sure on what his occupation before he was a teacher was.
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He was a soldier, hence all the guilt about that child he (accidentally) killed. I mean, it was a big part of his character, his relationship with Clara and even more importantly the Doctor, and I think it got mentioned in almost all his episodes (most notably the finale when that kid showed up, and when you saw it happening in the flashbacks).
 
Boem said:
He was a soldier, hence all the guilt about that child he (accidentally) killed. I mean, it was a big part of his character, his relationship with Clara and even more importantly the Doctor, and I think it got mentioned in almost all his episodes (most notably the finale when that kid showed up, and when you saw it happening in the flashbacks).
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Oh, right. He was a soldier. They could have been clearer about it.

I'm not being serious. But I still think he should have gotten more of a mention
 
TheOMan said:
LOL, rude.

The Doctor shows up in the desert and finds a diner. Walks in and finds a waitress that looks remarkably like Clara, but he doesn't recognize her (even though he tells this waitress that if he ever saw her again, he most surely would remember her). When she realizes that he truly doesn't remember her, she leaves with tears in her eyes by opening a door to a room, with Ashildr (Me) in it. That's when we realize that the waitress truly is Clara
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That is a very odd take on that scene.

When the doctor shows up at the diner it is made quite clear that The Doctor recognizes Clara but she doesn't know who he is, by the way it is filmed and especially by the reaction when Clara says "tell me about her". The beauty of this episode is how it is flipped on it's side by finally realizing at the end that it's Clara that remembers and the Doctor that doesn't. That was basically the whole point of half of the scenes, to build up to that twist.
 
thefil said:
Finished the Eighth Doctor audio drama "Embrace the Darkness". Very mixed feelings on this one. The first two parts were very generic feeling horror, and I didn't care for the characters. In these four-parters, the supporting cast does so much work that if you don't like them it's hard for a serial to come out well.

However, I really did like the resolution of the mystery and thought it was a surprise, which is rare for Doctor Who. It all ended up very alien and at once relatable, which I suppose is what scifi is supposed to do. I don't generally consider Doctor Who to be scifi, but this is about as close as it's gotten in the audio dramas.
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I've listened to a lot of 8th Doctor and I know I've listened to this one but I just can't remember it well, even after reading a quick summary on http://tardis.wikia.com. I need to give McGann another run after I'm done listening to my current set, I really love the 8th.
 
SirMossyBloke said:
That is a very odd take on that scene.

When the doctor shows up at the diner it is made quite clear that The Doctor recognizes Clara but she doesn't know who he is, by the way it is filmed and especially by the reaction when Clara says "tell me about her". The beauty of this episode is how it is flipped on it's side by finally realizing at the end that it's Clara that remembers and the Doctor that doesn't. That was basically the whole point of half of the scenes, to build up to that twist.
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I guess it was how I looked at it since I knew The Doctor wasn't going to remember her based on what we had seen just a moment before, no? The Clara in the diner being a splinter crossed my mind for a bit actually. It wasn't much of a twist for me, except for when the diner turned into a Tardis.
 
SirMossyBloke said:
That is a very odd take on that scene.

When the doctor shows up at the diner it is made quite clear that The Doctor recognizes Clara but she doesn't know who he is, by the way it is filmed and especially by the reaction when Clara says "tell me about her". The beauty of this episode is how it is flipped on it's side by finally realizing at the end that it's Clara that remembers and the Doctor that doesn't. That was basically the whole point of half of the scenes, to build up to that twist.
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I do think there was some subconscious thinking of The Doctor about Clara being Clara, hence the Space Glasgow reference, referring to Sleep No More with the discussion of how nothing has Space in front of it in its name
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
It's not properly established that the have to give up, therefore it comes off uncharacteristically like them ...giving up.
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Doctor Who can't take anybody without permission. He's not a kidnapper, not in recent decades.

Making the people in the show act out of character is a weakness of the script-- and it undermines us caring about them or the plot.
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This begs the question and it's contradicted by the facts I've outlined and won't repeat here. I remain convinced that the main reason we have our likes and dislikes is personal taste. Fans are absolutely the least capable of advancing a coherent criticism of writing. Their heavy investment in the series makes them blind to this. This probably applies to other fandoms.
 
tonysidaway said:
Doctor Who can't take anybody without permission. He's not a kidnapper, not in recent decades.
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That wasn't remotely the conversation they were having.

Jeez, let it go already. You asked why people hate that episode, and I gave you my reason, and now you are trying to convince me I'm somehow misreading the exchange with some really reaching ideas.

I also hate the idea that trees can protect the planet from solar flares and then everybody forgets because... they just do. But that's secondary to the above.

Being really boring hurt it, too.

And I'd say that my fairly casual fandom gives me quite the leg up on your last assertion.
 
APZonerunner said:
Here's a nice clear shot of the new Sonic outside of the show:

CVPRxGDWwAEzy4-.jpg


Very much in keeping with Capaldi's control room, I guess - the old screwdriver made less sense once Smith's fairytale control room was gone.
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Look's Wonderful,still feels about matt smithy though.
 
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