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[tonysidaway]

Spoiler

I'm not being serious. But I still think he should have gotten more of a mention

Yes. The Christmas episode does give that relationship a resolution. When characters leave like that it's difficult to know how much to show the remaining characters talking about them. As he got at least three good farewells in, I didn't really miss him. Clara's whole life is Doctor Who and the TARDIS in Series 9, so she's clearly moved on.

 

[tonysidaway]

That wasn't remotely the conversation they were having.

Jeez, let it go already.

That's a very odd thing to say on this thread.

You asked why people hate that episode, and I gave you my reason, and now you are trying to convince me I'm somehow misreading the exchange with some really reaching ideas.

Convince? No. But it's clear that through discourse here the actual episode has been replaced by a straw episode that is easier to criticise. It's not just you, it's a whole collective enterprise.

You'll spot the symptoms easily if you give it a chance. Somebody says (for instance) that Clara is becoming overly trusting of Doctor Who. Nobody bothers to correct that (which is a load of bollocks) but then any behaviour which contradicts that is subsequently described as "out of character." Even in the same episode we get somebody saying Clara is brutally casting the kids off, even though on the contrary it is she who comes up with the idea of using the TARDIS as a lifeboat.

This is just terribly poor lit crit, because the facts are ignored if they contradict the group obsession with finding somebody to blame for an episode not being as enjoyable as they want.

I also hate the idea that trees can protect the planet from solar flares and then everybody forgets because... they just do. But that's secondary to the above.

People forgetting the heroes of the hour? That's almost like real life. Can't have that, can we? But seriously, that's as cogent a critique of serial fiction as I've ever seen.

Being really boring hurt it, too.

I already checked the AI figures in a comment earlier in the thread. Viewers liked it well enough. It scored as high as The Caretaker and higher than Listen. But that's another problem here: attributing one's subjective impressions to the quality of the writing.

If it's boring, watch something else.

 

[isny]

Look's Wonderful,still feels about matt smithy though.

Until grand Mof is gone everything will still probably continue to feel a bit Matt Smithy.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

If it's boring, watch something else.

I won't rewatch it. That's the best I can do. Well, and tell my wife, who fell asleep watching, not to bother. If you mean Who in general-- it's always better than this. This is my pick for low point. Yes it's subjective, but everyone has to have a least favorite episode, and this is mine.

Yes, I found it out of character for Clara to put the brakes on saving the kids, even moreso after she suggested it. Maybe I misread that scene, but I don't think I did.

And people forgetting how the world was covered up in vegetation and nearly wiped out be a solar flare? That makes no sense.

Boring is of course subjective and that's why I list it low. But yeah, I found it rather boring. This happens on Doctor Who from time to time, but the high points are worth it.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Well, I have to admit I found the finale to be disappointing. I mean, I was hopeful that the symmetry thing would have a satisfying payoff and in a way it did end with a 'death-rebirth' type situation on Clara (which I suspected as well), but the way it was handled is just messy as shit. I mean, it's like he said "let's do Gallifrey" expecting producers to say no, and then they said okay or something. It seemed woefully unprepared, particularly because no current viewer has any idea why Rassilion (not without resorting to wikipedia) would be considered a villain from the Doctor's point of view. He didn't hold that against him under RTD as far as I remember, just that he tried to break free from the time-lock, bringing all the horrors trapped within with it. The time war always seemed like an inevitable conclusion to the Daleks and Time Lords, which is how that hybrid made sense in the first place.

The rest was 'okay' until we got to Clara, when it took a literal "oh we're doing this now" nose dive. So the seeding aspect was supposed to be that the Doctor himself started this story about the hybrid (which at least redeems the ending of the Gatiss episode somewhat, since a Dalek hybrid doesn't make sense either), but I don't think anyone got that from this finale. The other part is that nothing is resolved this way. The Doctor literally just created an abomination that is neither living nor dead, something the Tardis went all cloister for earlier in this season. Pretending that 'she'll get back there' eventually is ridiculous, because the one thing this season established is that she dies almost every damn time. Also, if I take the Dalek (notice Clara's response to it, har) in the crypt to be literal, he's referring to Ashilda, not itself. Meaning they already met, and presumably may have already tried to exterminate both of them, perhaps successfully with Zomclara, creating the very conditions supposedly "solved" in the finale. So hopefully you can see my problem with this fanwank in establishing or resolving anything. Also, Missy is mentioned but she's still on Scaro as far as we know. Kind of saying 'oh yeah, we'll get to that next season or we'll just forget about it', which is somewhat too common for Moffat to do.

Unless there is a Rassilion returning to Gallifrey with Zomclara in tow to demonstrate that the Doctor cannot be trusted with the fate of the universe down the line, I see no particular good reason why any of the 'events' of the finale took place, other than excuses to deny Clara a proper exit. I know what it tried to do, sure, but it wasn't successful about how to get there. It's not as downright offensively dumb as the finale to S3, but that one had Utopia to make up for it.

btw, did we see that 'end of the universe' shot before? I feel like I've seen that shot before, but I don't rewatch Who episodes after their original airing. Looked good though.

 

[tonysidaway]

And people forgetting how the world was covered up in vegetation and nearly wiped out be a solar flare? That makes no sense.

It's how series work, we all know this. During Russell T Davies' run we had daleks swarming all over London, gigantic spaceships that look exactly like the Titanic, and one or two plagues of rogue Santas. One or two efforts were made to clear up the timeline (for instance, the self-consuming plot of Series 3, and the disappearing giant Victorian Cyberman, apparently eaten up by the ominous crack in Amy's bedroom wall). I can't even remember whether any attempt was made to undo the Master's attempt to bring Gallifrey back in The End of Time.

This is the way it is. It is assumed, quite plausibly I think, that people in the Doctor Who universe are as busy getting on with their lives as they are in this one. The Olympics were held a few miles from where I live in 2012 and I can barely remember the event.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

The first episode of Tripped was just on E4, which is the parallel universe comedy-drama part-written by Jamie Mathieson. I quite enjoyed it, very much in the same style as his film Frequently Asked Questions About Time Travel (which I thought would have made a great episode of Who).

 

[isny]

I see no particular good reason why any of the 'events' of the finale took place, other than excuses to deny Clara a proper exit.

This is what upset me most.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I personally like it when everybody cleared out of London on Christmas after what had happened in previous years. I hate the reset switch. That episode was just lazier than ever in using it.

 

[Blader]

particularly because no current viewer has any idea why Rassilion (not without resorting to wikipedia) would be considered a villain from the Doctor's point of view. He didn't hold that against him under RTD as far as I remember, just that he tried to break free from the time-lock, bringing all the horrors trapped within with it.

Rassillon wasn't just trying to escape the time lock, he was trying to wipe out of all of time and evolve into some kind of higher consciousness or something. That seems worthy of being considered a villain.

So the seeding aspect was supposed to be that the Doctor himself started this story about the hybrid (which at least redeems the ending of the Gatiss episode somewhat, since a Dalek hybrid doesn't make sense either),

The Doctor didn't start the story. He even says in the last ep that he has no idea who or what the Hybrid is, and only tricked the Time Lords into making them believe he knew.

Also, if I take the Dalek (notice Clara's response to it, har) in the crypt to be literal, he's referring to Ashilda, not itself. Meaning they already met, and presumably may have already tried to exterminate both of them, perhaps successfully with Zomclara, creating the very conditions supposedly "solved" in the finale. So hopefully you can see my problem with this fanwank in establishing or resolving anything.

Not sure what this is referring to.

Also, Missy is mentioned but she's still on Scaro as far as we know. Kind of saying 'oh yeah, we'll get to that next season or we'll just forget about it', which is somewhat too common for Moffat to do.

The reference to Missy had nothing to do with where she's left in this season, it was a callback to the old woman in the shop (Missy) being the one responsible for pairing the Doctor with Clara in the first place.

btw, did we see that 'end of the universe' shot before? I feel like I've seen that shot before, but I don't rewatch Who episodes after their original airing. Looked good though.

You might be thinking of the 'sun exploding' shot from The End of the World, back in S1.

 

[tonysidaway]

Unless there is a Rassilion returning to Gallifrey with Zomclara in tow to demonstrate that the Doctor cannot be trusted with the fate of the universe down the line, I see no particular good reason why any of the 'events' of the finale took place, other than excuses to deny Clara a proper exit.

By my count, she's had at least three farewells. I don't think we can complain. Drag her back and make them do it "properly"? Sounds to me like the problem doesn't lie with the writing at all.

The episode seems to have acquired an 83% score on the Tomatometer. This suggests to me that, quibbles aside, it is a highly regarded episode.

 

[hamchan]

By my count, she's had at least three farewells. I don't think we can complain. Drag her back and make them do it "properly"? Sounds to me like the problem doesn't lie with the writing at all.

The episode seems to have acquired an 83% score on the Tomatometer. This suggests to me that, quibbles aside, it is a highly regarded episode.

You seem to like using Rotten Tomato and AI scores to wave away people's opinions.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

I liked the Finale, but it could have been better.

I mean, the whole "saving clara" thing was a total waste and focusing on the doctor dealing with Clara's death and taking revenge on the Time Lords who wronged him would have been far more fun and engaging.

 

[DECK'ARD]

That wasn't remotely the conversation they were having.

Jeez, let it go already. You asked why people hate that episode, and I gave you my reason, and now you are trying to convince me I'm somehow misreading the exchange with some really reaching ideas.

I also hate the idea that trees can protect the planet from solar flares and then everybody forgets because... they just do. But that's secondary to the above.

Being really boring hurt it, too.

And I'd say that my fairly casual fandom gives me quite the leg up on your last assertion.

You're speaking to the Doctor Who equivalent of a religious zealot, spreading the Word through the mysterious ways of In The Forest Of The Night and other gospels.

The reasoning is quite painful at times, I nearly fell off my sofa at the forgetting the Olympics line, and it's become quite tedious as well as a very annoying attitude to other posters, but you're not going to get anywhere.

He's pompous to a fault, we are just the rabble with our vile and disgusting behaviour who could find enlightenment through a television show if only we tried.

Someone needs to be told that none so blind as those who will not see works both ways.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I think I am done.

 

[ClivePwned]

In the Forest of the Shite. You defend it, I'll tear it down. You're welcome to your opinion and express it, as are we.

 

[Haunted]

I think Capaldi is really good.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

I think Capaldi is really good.

I don't think there is anyone that doubts his skills and talents, especially after Heavent Sent and Hell Bent. The problem has always been the scripts he has been saddled with.

When he has a great script, it is probably some of the best acting Doctor Who has ever seen (ie: Heaven Sent). I kinda wish that Capaldi would stay for one season with a new showrunner even after Moffat left so we could see what can he do without Moffat.

Also Hell Bent also proves how amazing Capaldi is, because until he "Saved Clara." The episode was really compelling and amazing. I kind of wished we have a "companion-less" doctor who, even for 2 or 3 episodes.

 

[Akahige]

Finished the Series last night, I was not a big fan of this series, overall I guess it was better than Series 8 or maybe more even would be a better way to describe it.

Holy hell what was up with The Zygon Invasion? I mean I shouldn't be surprised that the writer of Kill the Moon could write such trash but I was shocked at how bad it was, Inversion was decent at least and had that fantastic monologue.

I did absolutely love Heaven Sent, sure it can start to fall apart if I think about it too much but the acting, direction, and dialogue were fantastic. The music, I must mention the music, this episode featured the best work by Murray Gold yet, really beyond great work.

Hell Bent was extremely messy but I really enjoyed it, it entertained me and the character moments between Clara and The Doctor were effective.

 

[tonysidaway]

You seem to like using Rotten Tomato and AI scores to wave away people's opinions.

They are opinions too. I don't discount opinions, but the determined contrarianism of a forum thread isn't exactly conducive to sound critical judgement.

The tenor of discussion here is often toxic and could do with harsh criticism from time to time. Setting it in context is part of that. Some fans are never satisfied. Doctor Who audiences and television critics tell a different story.

Some humility would be merited in view of the persistent failure of opinions here to match either established facts or external opinions. Maybe, as I have repeatedly and justifiably remarked, the problem is not with the writing.

 

[DECK'ARD]

In the Forest of the Shite. You defend it, I'll tear it down. You're welcome to your opinion and express it, as are we.

That's actually my favourite GAF-coined name along with Detergent.

 

[Akahige]

In the Forest of the Night was alright to me, not great by any means but no episode from Series 8 was.

 

[Mariolee]

I don't think there is anyone that doubts his skills and talents, especially after Heavent Sent and Hell Bent. The problem has always been the scripts he has been saddled with.

When he has a great script, it is probably some of the best acting Doctor Who has ever seen (ie: Heaven Sent). I kinda wish that Capaldi would stay for one season with a new showrunner even after Moffat left so we could see what can he do without Moffat.

Also Hell Bent also proves how amazing Capaldi is, because until he "Saved Clara." The series was really compelling and amazing. I kind of wished we have a "companion-less" doctor who, even for 2 or 3 episodes.

You hit the nail on the head exactly. Capaldi is such an incredible actor and I have no idea why Doctor Who struggles with subpar scripts so often. I'm sure every show deals with bad scripts but with a show as celebrated as Doctor Who and with only 13 episodes per year I wish we had more episodes like Heaven Sent.

 

[hamchan]

I think I am done.

I was done a while ago after being called vile and inhuman for expressing my views on a TV show. It's just not worth arguing when someone is like that.

I think Capaldi is really good.

He's bloody brilliant. This show is so lucky that it can attract such high quality actors like Capaldi to play the part.

 

[Veelk]

I think Capaldi is really good in high tense and painful moments like the last few have been. However, up until these episodes, I didn't think he came into his own at all. First he acted too much like Sherlock as the Doctor, even directly borrowing a lot of his lines. There were some good episodes in last season, don't get me wrong, but something was off for me. Then, for the first few episodes of this season, he was acting like a second rate Matt Smith. Much nicer and all, but overtly goofy, whereas it was more subdued in the first season with him.

Capaldi brings a level of intensity and anger that wasn't really present in Smith's or even Tennant's and that's where he shines. When he's going through the paces of a norrmal DW episode, I feel the Moffat struggles what to do with him that's not other characters he's written.

 

[DECK'ARD]

They are opinions too. I don't discount opinions, but the determined contrarianism of a forum thread isn't exactly conducive to sound critical judgement.

The tenor of discussion here is often toxic and could do with harsh criticism from time to time. Setting it in context is part of that. Some fans are never satisfied. Doctor Who audiences and television critics tell a different story.

Some humility would be merited in view of the persistent failure of opinions here to match either established facts or external opinions. Maybe, as I have repeatedly and justifiably remarked, the problem is not with the writing.

Try demonstrating humility before having the nerve to call for it from others.

Alternatively just pack up and take your soapbox down Speaker's Corner, where you will be the subject of some curiosity.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

You hit the nail on the head exactly. Capaldi is such an incredible actor and I have no idea why Doctor Who struggles with subpar scripts so often. I'm sure every show deals with bad scripts but with a show as celebrated as Doctor Who and with only 13 episodes per year I wish we had more episodes like Heaven Sent.

Yup, say what you will about Capaldi, but when he is given a brilliant script, he is amazing.

To be fair, Heaven Sent also shows that Moffat still has the chops when he doesn't believe his own hype. I remember reading that Heaven Sent was supposed to be a low budget story. Sometimes, a low budget is what you need when it comes to creating greatness. Every once in a while, you don't need grand set pieces, just narrow corridors and interesting locales with compelling character driven storytelling.

I think Capaldi is really good in high tense and painful moments like the last few have been. However, up until these episodes, I didn't think he came into his own at all. First he acted too much like Sherlock as the Doctor, even directly borrowing a lot of his lines. There were some good episodes in last season, don't get me wrong, but something was off for me. Then, for the first few episodes of this season, he was acting like a second rate Matt Smith. Much nicer and all, but overtly goofy, whereas it was more subdued in the first season with him.

Capaldi brings a level of intensity and anger that wasn't really present in Smith's or even Tennant's and that's where he shines. When he's going through the paces of a norrmal DW episode, I feel the Moffat struggles what to do with him that's not other characters he's written.

I would blame it on Moffat, not because he is a bad showrunner, but because he clearly didn't know how to write a script that a fellow super who fan like Capaldi could really make his own.

I would argue that the end of Series 9 did the showrunner and Capaldi really bring home what makes 12th doctor his own man. Hopefully with the one year hiatus they don't lose sight of it.

 

[M.Bluth]

no current viewer has any idea why Rassilion (not without resorting to wikipedia) would be considered a villain from the Doctor's point of view. He didn't hold that against him under RTD as far as I remember, just that he tried to break free from the time-lock, bringing all the horrors trapped within with it.

You really should rewatch the End of Time...

Also, Missy is mentioned but she's still on Scaro as far as we know. Kind of saying 'oh yeah, we'll get to that next season or we'll just forget about it', which is somewhat too common for Moffat to do.

Missy isn't on Skaro. Her line about her having a brilliant idea in the Witch's Familiar is a reference to the sequence before the opening credits. The viewer should infer that she'll be using the Daleks' laser energy to teleport away.

That's a very odd thing to say on this thread.



Convince? No. But it's clear that through discourse here the actual episode has been replaced by a straw episode that is easier to criticise. It's not just you, it's a whole collective enterprise.

You'll spot the symptoms easily if you give it a chance. Somebody says (for instance) that Clara is becoming overly trusting of Doctor Who. Nobody bothers to correct that (which is a load of bollocks) but then any behaviour which contradicts that is subsequently described as "out of character." Even in the same episode we get somebody saying Clara is brutally casting the kids off, even though on the contrary it is she who comes up with the idea of using the TARDIS as a lifeboat.

This is just terribly poor lit crit, because the facts are ignored if they contradict the group obsession with finding somebody to blame for an episode not being as enjoyable as they want.




People forgetting the heroes of the hour? That's almost like real life. Can't have that, can we? But seriously, that's as cogent a critique of serial fiction as I've ever seen.



I already checked the AI figures in a comment earlier in the thread. Viewers liked it well enough. It scored as high as The Caretaker and higher than Listen. But that's another problem here: attributing one's subjective impressions to the quality of the writing.

If it's boring, watch something else.

Come on, man. Not even Moffat defended Forest as much as this...

 

[APZonerunner]

We're doing this again? Forest and Fear Her. Shit tier. Embarrassing episodes.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Rassillon wasn't just trying to escape the time lock, he was trying to wipe out of all of time and evolve into some kind of higher consciousness or something. That seems worthy of being considered a villain.

Wasn't that just the Master? The final confrontation of that episode was Gallifrey returning to an orbit near Earth and them -Rassilion and co. - stepping through some portal. I seem to remember he wasn't concerned with the consequences of his action (with Tennant Doctor being all high on that 'consequences suck, bro' horse. You know, before Smith's Doctor was all 'yeah fuck that, I can do what I want' ), but I remember nothing about trying to evolve of any kind. It was just about breaking free from the Time War and the (then) final fate of Gallifrey's destruction.

The Doctor didn't start the story. He even says in the last ep that he has no idea who or what the Hybrid is, and only tricked the Time Lords into making them believe he knew.

That part of the story is what I meant with 'seeding the story', though the exact nature of this hybrid is left unresolved unless we assume it's still Clara, due to her unnatural state that the Tardis / Time Lords abhor (for some reason). It's possible that pairing her with Me, a 'natural' immortal (is that even possible?), is intentional on that end. Nothing planned, but just in case.

Not sure what this is referring to.

"Exterminate me!" can also be heard as: "Exterminate Me!", with the Dalek still trying to perform some future or past encounter with her. I mean, they would have had to run into her somewhere in a shrinking universe anyway. Particularly when they and the Doctor clash on Earth so often.

The reference to Missy had nothing to do with where she's left in this season, it was a callback to the old woman in the shop (Missy) being the one responsible for pairing the Doctor with Clara in the first place.

I am aware of that, and that was supposed to be the symmetry, but that would make the first two-parter kind of unneeded in the process. Going by it as a (possible) method for story writing, that's bit of a stretch in terms of what you show versus what you expect people to know / remember.
But leaving things for Christmas or later isn't unheard of for Who either, so I'm sure we'll get to it eventually. Or we will just be told, like the answer to 'how did you survive' at the start of the second episode of this season. Speaking of which: how did the Time Lords manage to threaten Me or give her tech at all? Are they just "back" like that now?
This finale assumes many things (or just says them) despite that we have no reason to believe that or have any knowledge of changes made. Of course people are confused by it, how could they not be.

You might be thinking of the 'sun exploding' shot from The End of the World, back in S1.

Hmm. Could be. It's not as similar though.

You really should rewatch the End of Time...

Missy isn't on Skaro. Her line about her having a brilliant idea in the Witch's Familiar is a reference to the sequence before the opening credits. The viewer should infer that she'll be using the Daleks' laser energy to teleport away.

Come on, man. Not even Moffat defended Forest as much as this...

- I would rather not. -_-'

- I do believe her gadget was destroyed and "the viewer is supposed to infer" is something I've never been particularly convinced by (because you can make up anything you want, basically), unless it's framed in a way that communicates that clearly (and that's hard, but that's the price of trying to show intent). If that was supposed to be the intent, I really did not get that memo, and I'm pretty sure that the average viewer would have the same issue.

- it's shit, and his argument is 'you're all just against this'. Move on y'all.

 

[Kurdel]

Missy isn't on Skaro. Her line about her having a brilliant idea in the Witch's Familiar is a reference to the sequence before the opening credits. The viewer should infer that she'll be using the Daleks' laser energy to teleport away

I disagree.

We have seen her teleport twice wothout announcing it, seeing her be vaporized by a Dalek would lead us to believe she teleported.

 

[Dryk]

Speaking of which: how did the Time Lords manage to threaten Me or give her tech at all? Are they just "back" like that now?

What I gleaned from the finale is that they're back but they can't really travel to the past that much lest all of the people that want to kill them figure out where they are. Of course knowing Moffatt that will all be thrown out and they'll just be chilling in the 21st century by next season.

 

[DECK'ARD]

We're doing this again? Forest and Fear Her. Shit tier. Embarrassing episodes.

We're all philistines.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Worst Episodes?

The Idiots Lantern (dull, tiresome and without charm)
Love and Monsters (Peter Kay as a Blue peter created villain and blow job pavement slab)
Fear Her (graphite monster, scary closet devil daddy etc etc)
Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks (pig people and horrible acting)
The Unicorn and the Wasp (just fucking dreadful, Tate at her worst)
The Eleventh Hour (dull villain, dull episode)
The Vampires of Venice (maybe the worst SFX in the show and a bad story all round)
The Curse of the Black Spot (Pointless episode, dumb conclusion)
The Crimson Horror (I don't even have the words for this one)

 

[Goldrush]

You really should rewatch the End of Time...


Missy isn't on Skaro. Her line about her having a brilliant idea in the Witch's Familiar is a reference to the sequence before the opening credits. The viewer should infer that she'll be using the Daleks' laser energy to teleport away.



Come on, man. Not even Moffat defended Forest as much as this...

I don't think Missy's line is suppose to be anything more than "yes, she got of that." If I remember correctly, their teleporters broke after escaping the 1st episode cliffhanger. What the ploy was doesn't matter. Kind of a cheeky way of saying that they don't need to think of a way to revive the Master for the umpteenth time next appearance.

 

[Blader]

Wasn't that just the Master? The final confrontation of that episode was Gallifrey returning to an orbit near Earth and them -Rassilion and co. - stepping through some portal. I seem to remember he wasn't concerned with the consequences of his action (with Tennant Doctor being all high on that 'consequences suck, bro' horse. You know, before Smith's Doctor was all 'yeah fuck that, I can do what I want' ), but I remember nothing about trying to evolve of any kind. It was just about breaking free from the Time War and the (then) final fate of Gallifrey's destruction.

The Master wanted to take over Earth. Rassilon wanted his 'final sanction' to wipe out all of time (hence 'the end of time') so he and some other Time Lords could evolve to a higher place.

That part of the story is what I meant with 'seeding the story', though the exact nature of this hybrid is left unresolved unless we assume it's still Clara, due to her unnatural state that the Tardis / Time Lords abhor (for some reason). It's possible that pairing her with Me, a 'natural' immortal (is that even possible?), is intentional on that end. Nothing planned, but just in case.

Tbh I don't really know what you're talking about. What 'seeding the story'? The Time Lords prophesied a hybrid and it scared the Doctor into leaving Gallifrey. He had nothing to do with creating the story. And the "hybrid" has nothing to do with Me, and it's not referring to Clara herself either -- it's about the Doctor and Clara, together.

"Exterminate me!" can also be heard as: "Exterminate Me!", with the Dalek still trying to perform some future or past encounter with her. I mean, they would have had to run into her somewhere in a shrinking universe anyway. Particularly when they and the Doctor clash on Earth so often.

Eh, maybe, seems like a reach to me. Not really sure what the point of looping over here would be, as it's not like Clara and Me need to return to Gallifrey before the Doctor and Clara had left; Clara's returning to the same moment in her past regardless of where she leaves from on Gallifrey.

I am aware of that, and that was supposed to be the symmetry, but that would make the first two-parter kind of unneeded in the process. Going by it as a (possible) method for story writing, that's bit of a stretch in terms of what you show versus what you expect people to know / remember.

I still don't know what you're talking about here -- what symmetry? The Missy reference had nothing to do with the first two-parter this season; it was just a callback to Missy being responsible for the Doctor and Clara getting together.

Worst Episodes?

The Idiots Lantern (dull, tiresome and without charm)
Love and Monsters (Peter Kay as a Blue peter created villain and blow job pavement slab)
Fear Her (graphite monster, scary closet devil daddy etc etc)
Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks (pig people and horrible acting)
The Unicorn and the Wasp (just fucking dreadful, Tate at her worst)
The Eleventh Hour (dull villain, dull episode)
The Vampires of Venice (maybe the worst SFX in the show and a bad story all round)
The Curse of the Black Spot (Pointless episode, dumb conclusion)
The Crimson Horror (I don't even have the words for this one)

The fuck? The Eleventh Hour is the perfect episode, and Vampires of Venice is good fun.

You're the worst!

 

[M.Bluth]

- I would rather not. -_-'

Ok, I'll save you time, I popped up my copy and this is the relevant part:

Rassilon: "We will initiate the Final Sanction. The End of Time will come at my hand. The rupture will continue until it rips the Time Vortex apart."
The Master: "That's suicide."
Rassilon: "We will ascend, to become creatures of consciousness alone—free of these bodies. Free of time and cause and effect. The Creation itself ceases to be."
The Doctor: "You see, now? That's what they were planning in the final days of the War. I had to stop them."

- I do believe her gadget was destroyed and "the viewer is supposed to infer" is something I've never been particularly convinced by (because you can make up anything you want, basically), unless it's framed in a way that communicates that clearly (and that's hard, but that's the price of trying to show intent). If that was supposed to be the intent, I really did not get that memo, and I'm pretty sure that the average viewer would have the same issue.

I'm not entirely sure it did. I can't rewatch Witch's Familiar at the moment to confirm.
Regardless, it's there to communicate she figured out a way to survive, which she will always do one way or another (something that was already shown in that story and stated by Moffat outside the show). There's literally no reason to believe she just stayed on Skaro.

 

[Slowdive]

They are opinions too. I don't discount opinions, but the determined contrarianism of a forum thread isn't exactly conducive to sound critical judgement.

The tenor of discussion here is often toxic and could do with harsh criticism from time to time. Setting it in context is part of that. Some fans are never satisfied. Doctor Who audiences and television critics tell a different story.

Some humility would be merited in view of the persistent failure of opinions here to match either established facts or external opinions. Maybe, as I have repeatedly and justifiably remarked, the problem is not with the writing.

Not really, people are allowed to dislike episodes, or hate the writing etc. There's more positive comments here than negative ones. You pointing out in nearly every post how people are wrong and you're right is toxic. I don't get what you hope to achieve, it's not like you're going to change people's minds.

Actually I think the ranting about Clara, and the many posts here eagerly anticipating her screen death or departure, are the most shameful aspects of this thread. There are those who think I'm a fan. I'm not a fan while there are those who call themselves fans and yet are accepted here in the full enormity of their vile and inhuman behaviour.

Please, if you ever loved a television programme, stop. You are making every single fan of Doctor Who, who sits by and does not condemn your hateful frothing, look like a bully.

Attacking a popular character played by a popular and competent actor is, actually, bullying. That's just the way it is. I'd expected to see some commenters pulling their punches, but this has turned into a blood sport. What really freaks me out is that nobody else ever says "wait a minute." It's as if we're all supposed to accept that every two pages or so somebody jumps in and says something utterly vile and we're supposed to pretend it's okay.

Still can't get over these posts. Calling people vile and inhuman for not liking a character is crazy.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Zealot
noun

› a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

› a ​person who has very ​strong ​opinions about something, and ​tries to make other ​people have them too.

› tonysidaway

 

[Quick]

I'm eternally optimistic with Doctor Who, except for Fear Her. That is the ONLY episode that I straight-up hate. GOODBYE CHLOE WEBBER.

But I do really like Love and Monsters, especially with that ELO jam. Pavement blowjob and Blue Peter monster aside.

Moffat's written up some Ls, but I'm more disappointed than angry. But I always look forward to the next Moffat episode.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I'm eternally optimistic with Doctor Who, except for Fear Her. That is the ONLY episode that I straight-up hate. GOODBYE CHLOE WEBBER.

But I do really like Love and Monsters, especially with that ELO jam. Pavement blowjob and Blue Peter monster aside.

Moffat's written up some Ls, but I'm more disappointed than angry. But I always look forward to the next Moffat episode.

I think you should reflect on the enormity of that vile and inhuman first paragraph.

Absolutely disgusting.

 

[DrForester]

Love and Monsters kind of edges into that special "So awful it's worth watching the trainwreck". Kind of like Star Trek Voyager's "Threshold".


So far I wouldn't call anything in Capaldi's run terrible. I think the worst might be "Sleep no More" which I didn't find bad so much as boring.

 

[ClivePwned]

I'm eternally optimistic with Doctor Who,

Moffat's written up some Ls, but I'm more disappointed than angry. But I always look forward to the next Moffat episode.

I'm of a similar mind. This last season, while it felt mostly aimless and self-contradictory, was at least solid. Even the Sleep Monster one wasn't on the level of terribad as Fear Her and Forest.

So I like Moffat, but I find hos Who work has disappointed me almost as much as he delights me. Which is weird because he already does write and produce the perfect Doctor Who for me, but it's not called Doctor Who.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

I have a confession..


... I don't totally hate Fear me....

 

[forgeforsaken]

Love and Monsters kind of edges into that special "So awful it's worth watching the trainwreck". Kind of like Star Trek Voyager's "Threshold".


So far I wouldn't call anything in Capaldi's run terrible. I think the worst might be "Sleep no More" which I didn't find bad so much as boring.

Kill the Moon is pretty damn bad.

 

[hamchan]

I'll admit, I had fun with Love and Monsters the first time I saw it.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Series 9 just poddled along really, whereas series 8 was all over the place.

But the last 3 showed where it hits the highs, especially where Capaldi is concerned, is where it's more character heavy and this was the case with 8 as well. They shouldn't lose sight of that, and I think new writers is key.

The only other episode this series that put the work in was The Woman Who Lived, apart from Moffat's Hail Mary speech in the woeful tale of Zygon insurgents.

Having more time with the year off could be just what the show needs to get the right string of stories together.

 

[jerry113]

I have a confession..


... I don't totally hate Fear me....

you monster

 

[Ashodin]

Capaldi's speech at the end of the Zygon Inversion will always get me.

"THEN YOU WILL DIE STUPID!"

 

[GSR]

Series 9 just poddled along really, whereas series 8 was all over the place.

But the last 3 showed where it hits the highs, especially where Capaldi is concerned, is where it's more character heavy and this was the case with 8 as well. They shouldn't lose sight of that, and I think new writers is key.

The only other episode this series that put the work in was The Woman Who Lived, apart from Moffat's Hail Mary speech in the woeful tale of Zygon insurgents.

Having more time with the year off could be just what the show needs to get the right string of stories together.

Those episodes are like a controlled experiment in how much one scene can do to elevate an otherwise flabby story. Good lord.