Also it was a nice warm day, so perhaps people were enjoying one last summer weekend before it starts getting colder and darker? Also rugby World Cup and strictly doesn't start until next week. Give it a few weeks when the clocks have gone back and people are tuning in for strictly and the numbers will improve.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
- Thread starter Quick
- Start date
Also it was a nice warm day, so perhaps people were enjoying one last summer weekend before it starts getting colder and darker? Also rugby World Cup and strictly doesn't start until next week. Give it a few weeks when the clocks have gone back and people are tuning in for strictly and the numbers will improve.
Assuming the Doctor saved him as a young boy, it'd make sense for a dying Davros to bring the Doctor back to save him again. The Doctor's angst over the whole thing is about what he did in saving Davros rather than shame about not saving Davros. That's how I see it playing out, anyway.
Though I also wonder what the heck Davros was doing out on that battlefield as a boy in the first place.
I really loved the dialogue back-and-forth between the Doctor and Davros. Probably my 2nd favorite part of the episode, behind the opening scene.
I agree that Daleks are overused, but I'd be shocked if we see them any further past this two-parter for the rest of the year. Don't know why so many people are jumping to "Daleks as the main villain again?"
No, he was infected by the snake bite right then and there.
So you'd like Moffat to make monsters that we'll see again in 30 years -- can we at least wait 30 years to see if any of Moffat's creations end up being reused first? We haven't even changed showrunners yet, who's to say what will and won't become a classic monster down the line?
And I'd say the Angels and Silence are far more interesting and memorable (ha) than something like the Sontarans anyway.
I agree that Daleks are overused, but I'd be shocked if we see them any further past this two-parter for the rest of the year. Don't know why so many people are jumping to "Daleks as the main villain again?"
No, he was infected by the snake bite right then and there.
So you'd like Moffat to make monsters that we'll see again in 30 years -- can we at least wait 30 years to see if any of Moffat's creations end up being reused first? We haven't even changed showrunners yet, who's to say what will and won't become a classic monster down the line?
And I'd say the Angels and Silence are far more interesting and memorable (ha) than something like the Sontarans anyway.
Exterminieren
Banned
The overnight ratings are grim, there's no denying it, but they aren't the full story.
Also, the Autumn time slot is horrible. Fan whinging be damned, I'd have delayed this whole series to February without a second thought. No need to contend with The X Factor, the Rugby World Cup and having the time slot pushed all over the schedules by Strictly.
Also, the Autumn time slot is horrible. Fan whinging be damned, I'd have delayed this whole series to February without a second thought. No need to contend with The X Factor, the Rugby World Cup and having the time slot pushed all over the schedules by Strictly.
I really hope Missy either leaves after this story or at least goes back to being a scheming villain. Taking the one interesting villain they've had in a few series and adding her to the Doctors growing party of interchangeably generic friends would be really disappointing.
They did such a good job with her introduction last series it'd be a real shame if they ruin it this quickly.
They did such a good job with her introduction last series it'd be a real shame if they ruin it this quickly.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I thought this was one of the better episodes in years. And definitely the best opener since The 11th Hour.
I wasn't overly impressed with Missy last year, but I have to admit enjoying her in this episode.
I wasn't overly impressed with Missy last year, but I have to admit enjoying her in this episode.
Agreed. Capaldi was stealing the show, and it didn't feel like Clara was the focal point, a huge relief.
I'm afraid this may fall victim to Moffat-syndrome where the payoff isn't nearly as good as the build up (see any story he's written since taking over as showrunner).
Still, really enjoyed this episode. Doctor-focus, is a good thing.
APZonerunner
Member
In all fairness, this is how The Master has always been, it's just other than the brief alliance in The End of Time he's never been like it in New Who.
StealthGoblin
Banned
The Angels and Silence are interesting, but they are incredibly limiting from a story point of view. The Angels don't speak for example and we've seen what they can do, we've seen them move, we've seen a huge angel etc. Well feels like it has run dry. I kind of think their next story would have to retread old ground. The Silence have limits too.
Since the show came back I don't feel like any of the new monsters would be around in 30 years time. They feel short term effective.
Hope Strax, Jenny and Vastra get murdered this series.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
There was a point there, with the planes, where I was like "We're on some Batman and Robin shit right now" and I didn't mind it. In fact I really liked it. It sorta seemed like that fight & figure shit out dynamic Clara & Twelve had been fumbling at all the previous season got seriously locked in with those planes overhead.
And then the Doctor came out on a Tank (which was cool and funny) and once the sunglasses came off and snakeman rollerbladed into the room, the air kinda got sucked right out of the episode, and never came back.
It's weird to say that aside from the Doctor on a Tank shredding his axe, the only time the episode was alive and running was when UNIT & Clara had to deal with the Master.
I like Capaldi's doctor a lot (and I like him more with that wild-ass hair)
I think Missy is more or less fuckin' amazing
UNIT was pretty damned cool, too.
But holy shit, even as setup for part 2 (which is why all the air leaves the episode - you realize fairly quickly nothing about this episode is really going to mean anything so far as the story goes by the time next week starts) Moffat has a hard time getting the fuck out of his own way, and it causes the story to trip up pretty consistently.
But I've heard from a couple critics that part 2 really goes places, so I'm hoping that this setup is simply just a big snag in the carpet, and not evidence that this whole season is going to be more drunken staggering across storylines and characters that would be better served by a more story-sober showrunner.
And then the Doctor came out on a Tank (which was cool and funny) and once the sunglasses came off and snakeman rollerbladed into the room, the air kinda got sucked right out of the episode, and never came back.
It's weird to say that aside from the Doctor on a Tank shredding his axe, the only time the episode was alive and running was when UNIT & Clara had to deal with the Master.
I like Capaldi's doctor a lot (and I like him more with that wild-ass hair)
I think Missy is more or less fuckin' amazing
UNIT was pretty damned cool, too.
But holy shit, even as setup for part 2 (which is why all the air leaves the episode - you realize fairly quickly nothing about this episode is really going to mean anything so far as the story goes by the time next week starts) Moffat has a hard time getting the fuck out of his own way, and it causes the story to trip up pretty consistently.
But I've heard from a couple critics that part 2 really goes places, so I'm hoping that this setup is simply just a big snag in the carpet, and not evidence that this whole season is going to be more drunken staggering across storylines and characters that would be better served by a more story-sober showrunner.
This is not really "my doctor who". To be honest, I do not get this fascination with changing continuity and leaving marks of Moffat all over Who-land.
My favorite stories in Doctor Who are never continuity-based ones. Like...just think. Eleventh Hour? Blink? Dalek? Heck, even Listen...
The drama in these is that there are people, societies, towns, whatevers, that are in real danger. The doctor is ALWAYS safe, we know that. Those that he visits are rarely so.
I just want more stories like that.
Moffat, I am not afraid for the Doctor, or for Clara, or for the Master. Or for the Tardis. PLZ.
My favorite stories in Doctor Who are never continuity-based ones. Like...just think. Eleventh Hour? Blink? Dalek? Heck, even Listen...
The drama in these is that there are people, societies, towns, whatevers, that are in real danger. The doctor is ALWAYS safe, we know that. Those that he visits are rarely so.
I just want more stories like that.
Moffat, I am not afraid for the Doctor, or for Clara, or for the Master. Or for the Tardis. PLZ.StealthGoblin
Banned
Another Moffat loop? Maybe.
No more snake man please, I have a bad phobia of them.
But yeah the episode was okay and I loved Missy.
Though Clara is still meh and I agreed that the whole "Doctor is dying" gimmick has worn thin.
Watch as he does it again for the series finale.
Agreed, I am still annoyed that he doesn't even bother in explaining how Sherlock faked his death.
But yeah the episode was okay and I loved Missy.
Though Clara is still meh and I agreed that the whole "Doctor is dying" gimmick has worn thin.
Watch as he does it again for the series finale.
Agreed, I am still annoyed that he doesn't even bother in explaining how Sherlock faked his death.
Calara was really great in the classroom and wIth UNIT, she is definitely at the Doctor's partner stage of the relationship instead of being only a sidekick.
They also explained Shelocks death.
slightconfuse
Banned
Missy is amazing
Is there even any logic to Pandorica/Big Bang's loop? Actual question.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Orson Pink has the answer, I'm sure.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
That was a really good opener imo. The snake dude confused me, seems as if he can time travel, and be pretty dangerous, why is he jobbing for Davros? Cool "villain" though, I really like the design and way they're going with the monsters so far. Eyes in hands isn't exactly new but they pulled off their purpose.
Missy stealing the show as usual. Gomez is such a good actress and I'm so glad in the direction they've gone with that character.
I'm really happy they're using established monsters/worlds too, Ood, Hath, Unit, Shadow Proclamation.
Missy stealing the show as usual. Gomez is such a good actress and I'm so glad in the direction they've gone with that character.
I'm really happy they're using established monsters/worlds too, Ood, Hath, Unit, Shadow Proclamation.
Don't we already have one? Clearly the Doctor encountering Davros as a kid -- whether he saves him or kills him -- is what sets him on the path to create the Daleks.
It's a time paradox so technically no, but that was kind of the point. Paradoxes blowing a hole in the universe is a well-torn time travel trope, but if the universe is already dying, then what's the harm?
I got the impression that they were a bounty hunter. Maybe a few of the snakes want more than that and to become start committing genocide or something, but they are a democracy.
Ol No Bones
Banned
I miss the lighthearted nature this show had for the most part. Doctor and companion would explore random place, have a mystery to solve and ultimately have to outwit some kind of threat. Past few series are missing some of that charm. Does anyone else see this? I think the writers are taking things a bit too seriously these days.
Yeah. Something like "New Earth" or "Smith and Jones" or "Partners in Crimes" captures the spirit of DW better than this did, I think. Back-to-back grimness from "Death in Haven" to this premiere feels a bit much.
User 100115
Banned
Enjoyed the hell out of it.
Glad I'm not the only one who said holy shit when the kid said his name.
Glad I'm not the only one who said holy shit when the kid said his name.
CloudyTuba
Member
Really liked this one. Kept in mind that it was a two-parter (right?), so I was not disappointed when it cut off. It always takes me until the second series to really warm up emotionally to a new Doctor (even though logically I already see how good he is) so this bodes well for me.
This still happens almost every episode of every series
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I found it a lot more light-hearted in ways, I was killing myself with some of the Missy lines.
And wait, "New Earth" was light-hearted?! Sure it ended well, but the concept was horrfying (Freaky Roseday shenanigans aside)
But that's not really the point. The point is where this is or isn't pushing the Doctor from a character perspective, which is why the cliffhanger is actually about "is the doctor going to kill a kid" and not "are his friends going to be okay."
I mean, he's not, but that's the core of the episode. It's not about "is the Doctor going to die?" It's about "would the Doctor kill or intentionally fail to save Davros as a child, and how would that decision impact his character?" It's completely and entirely about that. It's why they focus so much on the Baker clip.
The only reason the Doctor's supposed impending death is even at issue is because the Doctor essentially believes he deserves to die because he left Davros the first time. It's why he sent out his Time Lord will this time instead of any of the others. Not because seeing Davros is the most dangerous thing he's ever done, but because his guilt over leaving Davros in that field has led him to give up. He's not just going for a conversation, he's essentially turning himself in for a "crime" he knows he committed. He can't reconcile what he did with who he thinks he is.
That's practically every episode.
You know, I look forward to seeing what they do, if they do, with the Doctor interacting with a child he really hates (and not in 'eh, kids are annoying' kinda way), but building up on what you said in regards to reconciling his hatred for future Davros with the knowledge that kid Davros is still innocent.
I'm saying this because clearly the Doctor will be "exterminating" those mines, so I hope we get a few minutes of the Doctor and kid Davros where things like that could play out.
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
I'm wondering if it'd be like A Christmas Carol type thing, where the Doctor would try to change Davros before he became that monster, a revisit to the whole "Time Can Be Rewritten" concept that featured so heavily during the Smith Era. It'd also give double meaning to the titles, instead of The Magician's Apprentice being Clara, it'd be Davros, and The Witch's Familiar is Clara.
Tizoc
Member
I thought they were floating like how Daleks were envisioned when their created them back in the 60s. Or something like that.
I found myself not really liking this week's episode. I actually liked the first five minutes (to me, the 'handheld camera' feel I think better suits this Doctor for whatever reason) then I felt like it was last season's Dark Water all over again but with Daleks.
I don't really feel the Snake Guy was infecting people with Dalek nanoprobes -- I think the guy already had the Dalek nanoprobes before the snakebite....the bite just 'woke them up.'
I also think this week's show was all exposition and there was virtually no story.
I don't really feel the Snake Guy was infecting people with Dalek nanoprobes -- I think the guy already had the Dalek nanoprobes before the snakebite....the bite just 'woke them up.'
I also think this week's show was all exposition and there was virtually no story.
Doctor Who Confidential would've told us what was going on.
Now Doctor Who Extra does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1XZjTEZ0Pc
He's basically riding around on a remote controlled segway. I think the idea is that he slides around like snakes would.
Here's the other Doctor Who Extra if anyone's interested (focusing on Missy mostly): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bSXfg4NwMU
And here's another one about the Doctor's guitar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31b5MewfofY
Edit: Oh, another one here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mxpvS7dscs&feature=youtu.be
And for completion's sake, here's one about the prologue: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0327fkf
Doctor Who confidential still exists in a way. There used to be a Doctor Who Extra for every episode last season, lasting between 10 and 15 minutes. It seems they've broken them up in multiple shorter segments this season though.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Also, it clashed with a World Cup rugby match ...
I figured it was because he was made of snakes so he'd just have loads of snake tails slithering along under his robe
Those things are pretty popular where I am (Edinburgh) seen lots of kids/teens riding around on them, so I knew pretty much instantly what it was haha. It was a smart way of making a character's movement look very different from everyone else's, I think it completely failed to make it seem like snake movement in any way at all though.
paradox121
Member
I liked someone's reading that the Doctor doesn't actually think he is going to die - he just sent out the will to attract Missy's attention (since it's always useful to have her around when dealing with Davros/Daleks) and to 'punish' himself by making the situation at least feel extreme. Like you say, his guilt over what he did is what's driven him most. He's not running away because he's scared of dying, he's running away because he screwed up and doesn't want to face it. He's basically a naughty child.
Whether you think it's a poor narrative choice or not, people should realise by now that Moffat purely uses death as a drive for other things. People's 'deaths', real or fake, aren't about that character dying so much as what it means for the others. Rory's deaths helped solidify Amy's relationship with him (confusingly). Danny's death pushes Clara and the Doctor to Missy, and seemingly has repercussions for Clara this year. Even Osgood's death was just to highlight Missy's insanity. Point being, if a character dies it's more often than not to forward another character, rather than to shock the audience.
Can the stakes still be high if I know that they're going to mean absolutely nothing? Yeah
Plus the Doctor's spent the last 3 incarnations doing the whole "greater good" thing with the time war. I don't want to do it again with significantly lower stakes.
killing off Missy, Clara, and the TARDIS and then having the Doctor kill a kid would be a massive shocker, but that doesn't seem like something that they'd keep up with.
Plus the Doctor's spent the last 3 incarnations doing the whole "greater good" thing with the time war. I don't want to do it again with significantly lower stakes.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I don't necessarily agree with it needing to be lighthearted (some of my favorite Doctor Who stories can get pretty grim), but I agree that I miss the days where the show mostly just involved the Doctor and companion going on standalone adventures.
These days, it's all far too navel-gazing. Every story has to be some sort of world shattering revelation that will change the Doctor forever, almost every plot seems to revolve around the Doctor or companion in a key way, and the show is so far up its own ass in terms of continuity and self-awareness.
I miss when we can just see the Doctor and his companion turn up somewhere in the TARDIS, get involved in events, and then leave once the situation was resolved. Enough of all this navel-gazing and making everything about the Doctor.
That's exactly why Season 1 of Nuwho remains my favourite. I know it was inconsistent story wise but Eccleston gelled immensely with me and crucially, it had a spirit of just getting up and going. Travelling. Fun with a companion. Not mysteries wrapped in mysteries wrapped in prophecies. Bad Wolf was fairly simple as a motif and infinitely better for it.
I like complicated mysteries. Who tends to favour convoluted mysteries and that alienates somewhat.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
While I overall enjoyed this premiere, and like Doctor Who more than I don't since Moffat's taken over, I do think that there's something to be said about making stories inherently ABOUT the Doctor, because as has been pointed out - you sorta short-circuit the drama there because there's only so much any writer can really change before the status quo starts tugging at the character's pantsleg and starts pulling him back towards where he's always been.
But if the story's about someone else, and how the Doctor can help/hurt their ability to continue forward on the path they're on, then there are stakes again. They don't have to be huge stakes. Moffat has been really good at this before, which is why all the pomposity and grandiosity can get a little frustrating (as well as just trying in general) because the Doctor can change without having the events and the thrust of every story be some sort of reflection on his past or his person directly.
That used to be how the companions were best used, obviously, but some of the most affecting hours of Doctor Who come with characters we never met before the story started, and were characterized so well that you couldn't help but relate to them in some way. And it was whether or not THEY got through it alive, or had their goals achieved, that really gave the story tension and weight. Yes, the Doctor would almost always make their struggle his struggle, too. It's his show, after all. But there's a limit to how much of Doctor Who can be solely about the life of the Doctor, before you realize you're on a treadmill, and you can't really go anywhere like that
But if the story's about someone else, and how the Doctor can help/hurt their ability to continue forward on the path they're on, then there are stakes again. They don't have to be huge stakes. Moffat has been really good at this before, which is why all the pomposity and grandiosity can get a little frustrating (as well as just trying in general) because the Doctor can change without having the events and the thrust of every story be some sort of reflection on his past or his person directly.
That used to be how the companions were best used, obviously, but some of the most affecting hours of Doctor Who come with characters we never met before the story started, and were characterized so well that you couldn't help but relate to them in some way. And it was whether or not THEY got through it alive, or had their goals achieved, that really gave the story tension and weight. Yes, the Doctor would almost always make their struggle his struggle, too. It's his show, after all. But there's a limit to how much of Doctor Who can be solely about the life of the Doctor, before you realize you're on a treadmill, and you can't really go anywhere like that
Dismal episode outside of some quality scenes from Gomez. I like Doctor Who much better when the Doctor is a kind of cosmic monkey wrench inside of someone else's story, but now every other episode is explicitly about him and how big and important and epic he is to the universe. So, of course, our opening episode is about him yet again dramatically facing his impending death and how everyone in the universe is talking about it. It all feels incredibly repetitive, we even have the whole 'companions got disintegrated but not really thing' again right off the bat.