It's an odd discussion that people are saying it was about the doctor dying. It was about that as well, but moreso about the doctors soul dying. The turning point of conflict wasn't his death, but how he's going to die. As of now, his companions are dead and Davros' victory was getting him to admit he was wrong about compassion. Which still won't happen, because the Doctor is not only unkillable, he is also unmurdererable, especially if the target is a child, but that's a different discussion.
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
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Bobby Roberts
Banned
It seems that essentially, people seem to be at varying stages of fatigue regarding the modern superheroization of The Doctor.
Which what's going on, of course.
Which what's going on, of course.
Chezzymann
Member
I think my main problem with the show is that I can't think of many episodes from the past few seasons that you could show a random person that knows nothing about doctor who without them being totally lost and confused most of the time. In my opinion the show works best as a mostly episodic 'monster of the week' type show (basically episodes like blink, flatline, and midnight) instead of the fast paced lore heavy episodes we've been getting so much of as of late.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Finally caught it. I'll read everyone's impressions in a second, but my first reaction is...meh?
I'm not really invested in it. It had a standard list of Moffat complaints I won't subject everyone in here to again, and keep in mind what I'm about to say can be prefaced "but yes, somehow they could all fix it in the two parter", but
okay
look
everyone knows that they're never ever going to actually let the Doctor kill Davros as a kid and undo the entire history of the Daleks
And so all of the tension and drama that built to that final moment is so much empty posturing. I can't care about it at all. There's no weight to it, just like there's never any weight to "the Doctor is going to die for reals this time"
Oh good, are people finally catching on?
I'm not really invested in it. It had a standard list of Moffat complaints I won't subject everyone in here to again, and keep in mind what I'm about to say can be prefaced "but yes, somehow they could all fix it in the two parter", but
okay
look
everyone knows that they're never ever going to actually let the Doctor kill Davros as a kid and undo the entire history of the Daleks
And so all of the tension and drama that built to that final moment is so much empty posturing. I can't care about it at all. There's no weight to it, just like there's never any weight to "the Doctor is going to die for reals this time"
Oh good, are people finally catching on?
I do think it's odd the things that people latch onto to hang their narrative and air their list of grievances about the show. I've said it before, but I stopped coming to the GAF thread on Doctor Who as much in recent years and starting going to Reddit, AV Club and others because it just seems it's never really talking about what the show is, but rather what people would prefer the show be about.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The problem with a show that's been on the air for 50 years is that when you're talking about how you don't like what it is there's almost certainly easily referenced material you can point to of what you'd like it to be
DangerMouse
Member
That was great. Watching Missy go through it starting from her hilarious reaction to the Doctor saying "gravity" was great.
Agreed.
Also, hell no, I'd like her to stick around for a bit. I had a blast watching her this week, the fun and yet occasional menace was great.
a secret-boss
Banned
enjoyed the premier
Major ratings drop this year. Millions less then last season's premiere:
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34307519
Dam that is a major decline in viewership. Anyone have any houghts as to why so many people are abandoning the show?
Edit: Already posted. My mistake. Still disappointing news all around.
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34307519
Dam that is a major decline in viewership. Anyone have any houghts as to why so many people are abandoning the show?
Edit: Already posted. My mistake. Still disappointing news all around.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Link already posted and discussed upthread, actually.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The plane thing bugged me, but in retrospect its exactly the kind of mechanism they enjoy using in premieres and finales: some big show of some weirdness that's not plot relevant in any way whatsoever except as an excuse to bring a character in
Yeah my biggest gripe is with the "fake" tension that they're going with here. The Doctor won't die. Clara won't die like that. Missy is sure to come back. The Doctor won't kill a kid.
Actually I feel like this all amounts to the Doctor being a step ahead of everyone from the beginning and knowing exactly what to do.
Actually I feel like this all amounts to the Doctor being a step ahead of everyone from the beginning and knowing exactly what to do.
Good weather and lack of casual interest in a now-established Doctor will do that.
APZonerunner
Member
We'll see how the timeshift pans out, but while this is all very true, this is a bloody phenomenal drop. For instance, even if it has a timeshift about half a million higher then last year, if this was to become the standard it'd still be lopping a fifth off last years' average UK figures and almost 40% off the all-time high average of Series 4. So I do think it's a point for discussion... but the Doctor Who fanbase is bloody terrible for this; it's either "we're completely fucked!! Cancellation imminent!" or "heads in sand" and never somewhere in between.
On this story -- I rewatched it today, and while I still do think it's good, how many times is Moffat going to do The Doctor irresponsibly running from 'death' by partying somewhere? I guess it's a character trait now, though... he even did it under RTD.
Freewheelin'
Member
I have to wonder, with all of you saying "of COURSE the Doctor won't kill a child, of COURSE Clara isn't dead":
How many kids watching the show do you think do believe them? I'd venture a lot. Adult Who fans aren't the only audience Moffat has to cater for.
As well as the old adage of the why is more important than the what. Will the Doctor kill Lil Dave? No. But how he comes to rationalise either doing it or not can be very interesting character work in Moffat and Capaldi's hands.
Much less concerned with plot alone as I get older and read and watch more weird shit. Doctor Who is the same.
How many kids watching the show do you think do believe them? I'd venture a lot. Adult Who fans aren't the only audience Moffat has to cater for.
As well as the old adage of the why is more important than the what. Will the Doctor kill Lil Dave? No. But how he comes to rationalise either doing it or not can be very interesting character work in Moffat and Capaldi's hands.
Much less concerned with plot alone as I get older and read and watch more weird shit. Doctor Who is the same.
i'm seeing 9.17 mil for last season and 8.28 this season premiere which isn't bad for not having a brand new doctor increase it.
I mean I am also seeing 10.09 mil for smith's introduction and the next season premiere was 8.86 which was a bigger percent loss
that all being said last season average 7.26 mil viewers and is the lowest watched season of the current run, which if this premiere is something to go off of will likely be beat by this season but we will see.
I think it will help a bit with Clara is gone as while I don't mind her as a character, I don't feel like she really has much chemistry with the current doctor. Likely doesn't help a lot of their interactions have been arguing about stuff and butting heads.
APZonerunner
Member
The difference is really that you can expect a spike for Doctor/Companion introductions, Christmas, and regenerations. So, for instance, just over 10m for The Eleventh Hour was about in the expected range - the series 8 average was about 8.5m, so it means Smith's introduction picked up 1.5-2m curious randoms because of the media buzz around there being a new man. When it dropped the next episode and more fully the next series, that was still in line with the average that'd been set throughout Tennant's run (7.5-8.5m average per series).
So although the drop is actually in percentage terms less than it often is from 'new Doctor's first season opener > second season opener' overall it just means the show is less likely to post good numbers this series which is a bit disappointing, especially as I think Capaldi is so brilliant.
Great episode. Of course, you're taking a lot a set up and promise at face value, and it might not deliver on the interesting stakes that the premier has bought up, but it was a fun time. The whole thing constantly brewed with tension and was well paced the whole way, could have used some more downtime in that arena before the snake bloke took them away, but it was bloody good fun.
The Magician's Apprentice got a respectable AI (Appreciation Index: a score between 1 and 100 on how much a selected group of people enjoyed the show) of 84. It's not amazing, but it is above the series 8-average (83) and I think it's good considering how unfriendly it was to any potential new viewers.
Lynd7
Member
I enjoyed the episode quite a bit, the only part I found not necessary was saying "Oh no, The Doctor's gonna die". Couldn't that have been done by him simply disappearing for ages or something?
I'm also not a fan of Moffat's take on The Master's timeline, he doesn't care how he/she comes back or how that part links up. When RTD brought him back I thought they would keep his regenerations straight from now on.
I'm also not a fan of Moffat's take on The Master's timeline, he doesn't care how he/she comes back or how that part links up. When RTD brought him back I thought they would keep his regenerations straight from now on.
At this point the show would get picked up and funded in the US with a bigger budget by BBC America/AMC (or Netflix/Amazon) if it ever got cancelled by the BBC.
So it's kind of silly for anyone to be worried about the UK ratings.
acheron_xl
Member
If, for some reason, the BBC decided to let DW go, I hope to hell it would end up produced by Bad Wolf.
APZonerunner
Member
This is obviously correct, people would rally around/behind it, but it's worth pointing out in the wilderness years, both pre and post McGann's Fox co-produced outing, multiple attempts from BBC Worldwide to get a Doctor Who reboot off the ground based on classic Who's popularity on CBS, plus an attempt by an Australian Broadcaster for the same reason, failed multiple times. Basically: It's more complicated than this with BBC properties/rights, even though Worldwide it part of the BBC. So it'd be best to avoid that situation entirely!
Doctor Who really belongs with the BBC though. I could never see it as a Netflix thing, for example (and that will never happen). Don't forget, it kind of has a big legacy over there, and it really is seen as a sort of cultural institution. If things get worse I can see it go off the air for a bit, or adapted into a series of specials instead of full series, or even a movie, but the BBC won't sell it to another network. The only possibility I see there is BBC America taking over production more.
Also, people here are overreacting to those viewing figures way too much. It's too early to panic guys. Those figures don't take a lot of things into consideration - overnight figures, online, other countries, etc. The show is still doing remarkably well for a modern show in it's 9th season - a rarity these days, especially for genre shows. The show isn't going to get cancelled any time soon.
Also, people here are overreacting to those viewing figures way too much. It's too early to panic guys. Those figures don't take a lot of things into consideration - overnight figures, online, other countries, etc. The show is still doing remarkably well for a modern show in it's 9th season - a rarity these days, especially for genre shows. The show isn't going to get cancelled any time soon.
BigTastyBurger666
Banned
Spoiler for Episode 2...
Someone will be taught the capacity for 'Mercy'. Watch that word, 'Mercy'.
paradox121
Member
I have to post this because it's just the right amount of crazy conspiracy theory stuff that I kinda love: http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015...does-this-picture-prove-clara-oswald-will-die
I kinda thought it was ridiculous at first but...that license plate is way too specific.
I kinda thought it was ridiculous at first but...that license plate is way too specific.
Haha, that's great. If that's true, whoever thought of it deserves a raise. The Paul is dead story is famous enough, but Clara's feet could just be them trying to copy the original without thinking about it too much. As you said, the license plate really makes it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Damn
Dayum. Nice. And it was time. Make some space for Missy.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Because she's been incredibly poorly written
We could instead ask for better writing for her from moff, but...
Daria Morgendorffer
Member
Why want Clara were dead if her replacement would be written by Moffat too 
Messypandas
Member
I feel like this is just typical cultural fatigue in the wake of nine seasons for a contemporary show. 9 popular seasons for any other action/comedy/drama type show is pretty insane, unless you want to compare it to CSI or something. Sure the shows been on the air for 50 years on and off, but competition was different back then. I could see nothing rejuvenating it more than a long break and a return.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Paul is Dead is one of the great conspiracy theory/hoaxes/urban legends of my youth.
And the punchline, of course, is that IT WAS A HOAX.
I'm not buying that this means Clara is getting knocked off-- if anything, I think it means she won't be. If she were, they wouldn't play the game like this.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Why want Clara were dead if her replacement would be written by Moffat too
Because maybe he'd come up with a better idea this time I guess. I'd prefer he just do better with Jenna to be honest
Team Filler
Member
I liked it, but didn't love it. I'll wait for part 2 before making a fuller assessment.
Depending on his mood, he's also unfuckable.
Depending on his mood, he's also unfuckable.
I didn't even notice they bothered to park the same type of car on the side of the road.
Yeah, Clara isn't dying at this point.
I don't know, she is way past her time. The christmas episode was a perfect oppurtunity to give her a good farewell.
Because the companion is like half the show and she's not very interesting.
Was there an explicit line that stated that the Doctor left Davros? With Davros' line that compassion is a weakness and the Doctor's line about letting Davros live, I'm expecting what actually happened was that the Doctor saved Davros and his shame was that nothing changed.
Also, I'm actually interested to see the relationship between Davros and the Dalek. No doubt he's an outcast, but I'm wondering if it's actually antagonistic.
Also, I'm actually interested to see the relationship between Davros and the Dalek. No doubt he's an outcast, but I'm wondering if it's actually antagonistic.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Why want Clara were dead if her replacement would be written by Moffat too
Pretty much. I have no faith in Moffat's ability to write a compelling character.
Team Filler
Member
Ehhh, he can if he really tries. We got Rory!
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
A little less focus on the Doctor *and* the companion would be welcomed.
Having recently watched Caves of Andronazi, I thought it was great that there was this relatively complex plot happening that the Doctor and Peri were just a part of, rather than the point of.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Roxyd43 and I did our engagement photos a few weeks ago and did a few Doctor Who themed shots.
BBC America's Doctor Who account retweeted it as well!
BBC America's Doctor Who account retweeted it as well!