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[nightmare-slain]

I have to admit I'm not too excited for the next couple episodes. Maybe they'll tie into the overall story arc some how but they usually just feel like filler episodes. I guess that's cool but I'd prefer if every episode of the series was part of the main arc even if it meant one or two less episodes.

Seems like the next main episode is 5/6 where I think

Spoiler

Clara leaves.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Still on season 3.

Goddamn it Martha you were my chosen one then you had to bust out the "L" word. Ugh

 

[APZonerunner]

I do wonder if something 'big' is hidden in the back end of this season, because there wasn't very much public filming at all. Then again, over the Moffat years the show has gradually become a more studio-bound show in general, so who knows if that's just part of the trend.

 

[MrBadger]

I was keen on it up until the end

Tardis destroyed? NOOO it's security system just allows it to fragment!

No sonic screwdriver? Good thing I had these sonic sunglasses THE WHOLE TIME.

I prefer a clever Doctor to one that just pulls solutions straight out of his ass.

You did that to yourself if you thought the Tardis had actually been destroyed. Nobody ever showed any concern about it.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

I was keen on it up until the end

Tardis destroyed? NOOO it's security system just allows it to fragment!

No sonic screwdriver? Good thing I had these sonic sunglasses THE WHOLE TIME.

I prefer a clever Doctor to one that just pulls solutions straight out of his ass.

This has been Doctor Who for a long time now =/

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

You did that to yourself if you thought the Tardis had actually been destroyed. Nobody ever showed any concern about it.

Nobody did, but that was a hella weak explanation for it.

 

[APZonerunner]

The TARDIS resolution is something I would've and rightly should've hated, but in referencing the HADS I had to allow it to squeak by.

 

[twobear]

The TARDIS resolution is something I would've and rightly should've hated, but in referencing the HADS I had to allow it to squeak by.

so why was the doctor worried about the TARDIS in parting of the ways and journey's end?

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Actually, so what is happening with the whole Doctor facing his death (again!) stuff?

 

[CrimsonFist]

so why was the doctor worried about the TARDIS in parting of the ways and journey's end?

He was inside it in Parting, although that whole sequence was kind of odd anyway, since it doesn't usually physically fly from place to place. and in Journey's End it's mentioned that the Daleks took down the defences.

 

[Chariot]

Actually, so what is happening with the whole Doctor facing his death (again!) stuff?

I think that is a hook for later. The Doctor send it to Missy, so he wanted her to be there. Was it part of the plan to get saved from Davros, a classic Batman Gambit?

Or something bigger?

 

[Veelk]

I was keen on it up until the end

Tardis destroyed? NOOO it's security system just allows it to fragment!

No sonic screwdriver? Good thing I had these sonic sunglasses THE WHOLE TIME.

I prefer a clever Doctor to one that just pulls solutions straight out of his ass.

I think the show is aware of it and revels in it with lines like "The real question is, where did I get the cup of tea? I'm the doctor, deal with it", which makes it somewhat obnoxious

 

[infiniteloop]

I have to admit I'm not too excited for the next couple episodes. Maybe they'll tie into the overall story arc some how but they usually just feel like filler episodes. I guess that's cool but I'd prefer if every episode of the series was part of the main arc even if it meant one or two less episodes.

Seems like the next main episode is 5/6 where I think

Spoiler

Clara leaves.

I"m sooo looking forward to non-Moffat, non-arc episodes. Hopefully these might be enjoyable.

 

[keltickennedy]

It's possible that fans are not digging the Capaldi series. Love Capaldi himself but I personally detested last season and have not felt a sense of urgency to tune in this season after feeling burned. I'll get caught up this weekend though.

I had similar thoughts watching this season. There haven't been any really serious stakes so far.

Spoiler

They kill two characters and right away they are fine

. They meant to do that.

Spoiler

The Doctor gets tricked into using some of his regeneration,

nope....he meant to do that. The Tardis is destroyed!? Nope...jokes on you! Check out these sweet sunglasses!

 

[AHA-Lambda]

I think the show is aware of it and revels in it with lines like "The real question is, where did I get the cup of tea? I'm the doctor, deal with it", which makes it somewhat obnoxious

Yeah, this and "yeah, I was dead. Got better, don't ask questions" line from missy in part 1 >_>

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I dunno, I actually really liked the conclusion. Didn't feel half as silly or lacking as the first part.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think the show is aware of it and revels in it with lines like "The real question is, where did I get the cup of tea? I'm the doctor, deal with it", which makes it somewhat obnoxious

I think what really cinched the problem for me was Missy and Clara going in "assuming we're going to win". When you add it to everything else it just makes it feel like your characters are aware of their plot armor

 

[Jest Chillin]

I liked the episodes well enough. I enjoyed the fact that it was bait and switch in terms of the seriousness (previews for the second part made it seem like The Doctor was going to kill Child-Davros to bring back Clara).

The Tardis stuff at the end was too handwavy but the Sunglasses, while... an odd choice, made enough sense as whether The Doctor loses, gives away, or gets a Screwdriver destroyed, the Tardis can always generate a new one. So for him to just... stop having a sonic device of any kind because he abandoned Child Davros didn't really make much sense to me at the time. I always assumed there was another device somewhere.

 

[Chariot]

I think what really cinched the problem for me was Missy and Clara going in "assuming we're going to win". When you add it to everything else it just makes it feel like your characters are aware of their plot armor

I mean, the Doctor has an impressive track record of not-losing.

 

[Mudcrab]

I think what really cinched the problem for me was Missy and Clara going in "assuming we're going to win". When you add it to everything else it just makes it feel like your characters are aware of their plot armor

I think this and the superhero-ization of the Doctor BobbyRoberts was talking about is really getting to me.

I mean we spent the first 10 minutes of this ep listening to Missy specifically talk about how super amazing and always winning the Doctor's plot armor is.

 

[Dalek]

I don't get the Sonic Sunglasses complaints. Eleventh Doctor had a sonic cane. The Paternoster gang has Sonic devices. If the screwdriver is really telepathically controlled then what can he do with the screwdriver that he can't with the sunglasses.

That said-I'm looking forward to the screwdriver coming back-it's just iconic.

 

[Symphonia]

Well, on which note, is Martha the only modern full-fledged companion to depart from the Doctor on her own terms? That seemed rather more common in the past, too.

I count Donna leaving of her own accord, though Ten did have some say in her leaving, as he wiped her memory to save her.

What bothered me a little about Journey's End is that she HAD to go back to the parallel universe, while Mickey gets to go back to the other side again.

It's been some time since I saw the episode, but I don't think there were any constraints with Mickey coming back, while Rose and his family were considered officially deceased and would've caused some issues if they were found alive again. I'd assume they would've done the same with Mickey. I guess no one really cared about him. lol

Who's Ricky?

 

[mclem]

I don't get the Sonic Sunglasses complaints. Eleventh Doctor had a sonic cane. The Paternoster gang has Sonic devices. If the screwdriver is really telepathically controlled then what can he do with the screwdriver that he can't with the sunglasses.

Sarah-Jane Smith had sonic lipstick.

 

[gblues]

I think I'm pretty much done with the disintigrator-transmat misdirect.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

After watching the conclusion, I really came away from both parts without any objections except for this characterization of the Master. In this, she's basically a companion that does something inscrutable once in a while so you don't forget she's actually a bad guy. Atm, she's basically just River Song before she got really boring, only crazy and clingy. Still, I liked the bit at the end with Clara, that almost felt right.

Deux ex Tardis and sonic restyled in a way that almost feels like product placement have felt like par for the course since the show came back 9 years ago.

The fuckery with the show's mythology didn't bother me a bit, since that was the part that was handled the best in this two parter. To some extent, that's par for the course as well, you can only hope it's satisfying, and I thought this was.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

The ending with Clara/Dalek and Missy was the best scene in the episode for sure.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

The episode was solid and yet the ratings continue to drop fast. 3.7 million in the UK. Why is the show doing so bad this year compared to previous seasons? Such a massive drop in just a single year is extremely weird to me.

It was put up against England vs Wales in the rugby world cup which with 12 million got the highest ratings for a rugby game in a decade. The beeb sent it to die.

 

[infiniteloop]

It was put up against England vs Wales in the rugby world cup which with 12 million got the highest ratings for a rugby game in a decade. The beeb sent it to die.

Got 6.54 million in the 7 day ratings, so the Rugby is no excuse.

 

[Mudcrab]

The ending with Clara/Dalek and Missy was the best scene in the episode for sure.

Definitely. That's the kind of thing I'd want from a Doctor/Missy scene.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

There's been moments in this two-parter where it really seemed like we were on some "cake and eat it too" shit. The Master felt more like the Doctor than the Doctor did. Being a homicidal maniac was kinda tossed in after the fact.

One almost gets the sense Moffat might have realized too late "holy shit, a female Doctor would have been a pretty good idea."

But again - I really, really liked the one-on-one with the Doctor and Davros in this episode. Sure, it's just "a bunch of talking" but it was really good talking.

 

[APZonerunner]

so why was the doctor worried about the TARDIS in parting of the ways and journey's end?

Because the HADS wasn't on; he turned it on a in the submarine episode in Series 7 (forget the name) - and literally hadn't had it on since the Second Doctor, having forgotten how to do it. Thus why, continuity-wise, I think it's kind of cute.

Aside from that, there are reasons for this anyway despite the fact the TARDIS is fairly powerful & difficult to destroy or enter without specialized equipment -- he wasn't worried about it getting destroyed in Parting of the Ways, he was worried about the Daleks getting their hands on it - that's in the message to Rose... "Emergency Programme One means I'm facing an enemy that should never get their hands on this machine. So this is what you should do: let the TARDIS die. Just let this old box gather dust."

This is touched on again in Journey's End, where the 10th Doctor explains to Rose, albeit briefly, that the Daleks on Platform One and the Cult of Skaro both had access to limited tech and never could've brute forced their way into the TARDIS anyway. The ones through the Medusa Cascade had been there for ages and basically had the strength of a full Time War era Dalek army, and as such could crack into or destroy a TARDIS pretty easily with specialized equipment. So, again, that's why he was worried there. Who knows, that weird reactor area they dropped the TARDIS into might've destroyed it with the HADS on anyway.

There's a lot of plot holes in this episode, but this isn't really one of them - the HADS conclusion is lazy, but it isn't a hole.

What I really don't get is why we needed the TARDIS destruction at all. I guess so we could feel peril at the end of the episode, but I feel that the same tension could've been achieved in the cliffhanger by just having the Supreme Dalek say to Missy "We have no need your instruction" and then exterminate her and Clara, as it was. The threat then is not "The TARDIS is 'destroyed'" but "The TARDIS is in the hands of the Daleks, they MIGHT know how to get in/use it, and the Doctor is trapped a ways away with no way to get to it past the army of Daleks between him and it." Alas.

 

[Exterminieren]

Got 6.54 million in the 7 day ratings, so the Rugby is no excuse.

It certainly is an excuse for The Witch's Familiar, considering it's amongst the toughest competition that the show has ever faced.

As for The Magician's Apprentice, it's becoming increasingly apparent that Who's most solid, hardcore audience are those who timeshift, who almost without fail make up 1.9-2.1 million viewers week-in, week-out. The casual audiences overwhelmingly make themselves known on the overnight figures, and these are the figures that overwhelmingly vary, depending on competition and general interest. This year, unlike last year, Doctor Who debuted opposite The X Factor, which has significantly more casual interest than an average Who episode- that is, one that isn't debuting a new Doctor or companion. The Magician's Apprentice came up against the toughest competition of any new series debut, and didn't have a big hook for the casual audience- hell, the main plot line was deliberately kept secret.

This is not, of course, to say that Doctor Who is still as popular as it was- it pretty obviously isn't, and this is the first big bloody nose it's had over the past ten years. It is mitigated somewhat by the competition, though- it's one of many factors.

 

[Ophelion]

The ending with Clara/Dalek and Missy was the best scene in the episode for sure.

I felt like the take where the Doctor tells her to run was the wrong one though. Something about it didn't carry the emotional weight that it should have. Missy's rebuke that he's the one that runs and then calmly walking away was pretty solid though.

Trying to decide what the Doctor's motivations were for conning the Master into his schemes against Davros. Two (time) heads are better than one? Just not confident he could strut right into Davros' lair and get back out again without a little extra insurance? Just wanted to see the Master again? Hoping to cross two things off the to-do list at once?

Felt kind of bad for Clara this episode. She was a pawn on a very busy chessboard. By the end of the episode, I doubt she understands half of the machinations whirling around her head. She was a piece of Missy's plan, who was a piece of the Doctor's plan, which was put in place to check Davros' plan. That, folks, is the very essence of the Xanatos pile-up.

Edit: So, odds on the regeneration energy getting infused into the Daleks bringing about the rise of the Dalek Time-Controller?

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I don't get the Sonic Sunglasses complaints. Eleventh Doctor had a sonic cane. The Paternoster gang has Sonic devices. If the screwdriver is really telepathically controlled then what can he do with the screwdriver that he can't with the sunglasses.

That said-I'm looking forward to the screwdriver coming back-it's just iconic.

Those things were silly, too.

But it also speaks to the changing ethos of the show.

In the 1960s, the Doctor had a "sonic screwdriver" because he was a scientist and a tinkerer. So he has a screwdriver that he can use to fiddle around with technology and help him invent stuff.

Now, the Doctor is a cool guy, superhero rockstar, so he wears sonic sunglasses. It perfectly fits with the ethos of the series under Moffat. It's just not one that I find at all in keeping with what Doctor Who is.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Edit: So, odds on the regeneration energy getting infused into the Daleks bringing about the rise of the Dalek Time-Controller?

I would like this!

 

[Dalek]

Reflecting upon the episode-I'm not a fan of the resolutions where the Doctor "Always knew" what was going to happen and had a trap door ready.

I prefer stories like last years Flatline and Mummy, where he had to work it out onscreen and come up with a solution on the fly-or even back to "EVERYBODY LIVES, ROSE!"

 

[Mariolee]

I think that's probably my main problem with Moffat's series. He always talks up how the Doctor is going to die or the companions are going to die and then never really goes through with it. It makes the stakes feel flat and makes me less emotionally invested.

 

[liquidtmd]

Reflecting upon the episode-I'm not a fan of the resolutions where the Doctor "Always knew" what was going to happen and had a trap door ready.

I prefer stories like last years Flatline and Mummy, where he had to work it out onscreen and come up with a solution on the fly-or even back to "EVERYBODY LIVES, ROSE!"

Indeed. The sheer joy of Eccleston when he had that eureka moment, later going on to say that quote. You as an audience member went through the drama and problem with him, giving the ending more catharsis.

The Moffat approach of having an impossible problem and/or a situation which is resolved at the end by the Doctor having been actually playing a long game all-along is getting pretty fucking tiring. It removes the tension of the next encounter, especially in context of things like Missy being the big bad in S08 finale and then running around with Clara pally-pally with no implications before switching sides three more times before the end of S09 first two episode story premiere.

Capaldi and Smith are / were great, stellar Doctors but the beats behind them are getting a bit worn.

 

[Ophelion]

Indeed. The sheer joy of Eccleston when he had that eureka moment, later going on to say that quote. You as an audience member went through the drama and problem with him, giving the ending more catharsis.

The Moffat approach of having an impossible problem and/or a situation which is resolved at the end by the Doctor having been actually playing a long game all-along is getting pretty fucking tiring. It removes the tension of the next encounter, especially in context of things like Missy being the big bad in S08 finale and then running around with Clara pally-pally with no implications before switching sides three more times before the end of S09 first two episode story premiere.

Capaldi and Smith are / were great, stellar Doctors but the beats behind them are getting a bit worn.

We are all aware that the episode being extoled as a good example of how to do things vs the "Moffat Way" was also written by Steven Moffat, yes? Ok, just making sure.

 

[MrBadger]

We are all aware that the episode being extoled as a good example of how to do things vs the "Moffat Way" was also written by Steven Moffat, yes? Ok, just making sure.

Yes, everyone's aware that the best episodes Moffat wrote were when RTD was the show runner.

 

[Symphonic]

Loved both episodes. Fast paced opener with a slow burn second.

Only complaint is that Clara is just kind of there. But that's been my complaint about Clara from the get go. Very Martha.

 

[Exterminieren]

The Magician's Apprentice is, on final figures, somewhere between 11th and 14th most watched programme on British television for the week, and is the BBC's fourth most watched programme, ahead of three of the week's EastEnders episodes and everything else that isn't the Bake Off or Doctor Foster, the drama shown immediately after the Bake Off.

What a disaster.

 

[Razmos]

I imagine Moffats stories seemed so good during the RTD era because they were dark, clever and scary which were a sharp contrast to the fart jokes, power of love, and chavs.

 

[tomtom94]

Reflecting upon the episode-I'm not a fan of the resolutions where the Doctor "Always knew" what was going to happen and had a trap door ready.

I prefer stories like last years Flatline and Mummy, where he had to work it out onscreen and come up with a solution on the fly-or even back to "EVERYBODY LIVES, ROSE!"

This. I would have preferred it had the Doctor come up with the plan to infuse the Daleks in the sewers himself, though that would have required a significant rewrite. I guess it's just Moffat's thing...

But it was a good two-parter, it felt like what series 6's opener was trying to be. I'm not particularly enthused for the big story arc, though. Didn't we have this exact same scenario two seasons ago?

 

[The Technomancer]

I think that's probably my main problem with Moffat's series. He always talks up how the Doctor is going to die or the companions are going to die and then never really goes through with it. It makes the stakes feel flat and makes me less emotionally invested.

Its not an isolated issue though, its symptomatic of the fundamental underlying flaw, which is that Moffat writes for "moments" and "reactions" with bizarrely little regard for context.

 

[HeavyMetalLover91]

The problem with Doctor Who is that the show is so buried in it's lore and roots that there's never any sense of real change happening (ironic given the nature of regenerations etc.)

The fact that Capaldi was announced in a special show with it's own timeslot says it all really. Regeneration should go back to being a shock event, where it can only be seen live on tv, not have months of hype leading up to it. If they still want the hype, keep regenerations to Christmas time only, just don't say which Christmas and that way it will be more exciting to watch every year, with real stakes.

Monster of the week episodes are never going to have those kind of stakes but that's the problem with a show that's been on for 50 years. Special episodes have also got to this stage of having nothing to worry about. Was Davros really going to die? Of course not. Will the Daleks, The Master or Cybermen ever die? Of course not. Will any mainstay villain really be gone forever? Of fucking course not.

The beauty of a show like Breaking Bad or Orange Is the New Black is that they build towards something, an end goal. Like The Simpsons, Doctor Who has no end goal. But unlike The Simpsons, Doctor Who has a tonne of backstory, character building and dramatic events that you would hope some kind of consequence and yet they never do. Whenever a companion is due to leave the show, we have it shoved down our throats for months that *this is the episode they leave or die*

I like Doctor's Who's lore and I like the concept. It's just that 50 years later it's execution is terrible. I understand why they never want to give too much away, and keep the Doctor a mysterious being but why should I care if I have to wait years to be drip-fed bits of information. We had to wait 8 years for the whole Time War story, which I doubt was planned for the 50th anniversary back in 2004/5. It all feels like it's being made up as it's going along and that's why people have become desensitised to it. With TV quality being at an all time high it's jarring to have this show that just does whatever the fuck it feels like depending on the situation.

In an ideal world the show needs a reboot. I love that the Doctors all have their personalities and you can go back to the 60's and still have people that say - they were my Doctor. But if they want us to give a shit about the Doctor as a character, with a backstory and a life we're supposed to give a shit about, they need to step away and say this happens in season 1, this happens in season 2, so on and so forth.

I'll still watch this season, and probably the one after that. But I can't get excited about the reappearance of any character because I know their presence will never really change anything. Even fucking River Song who was supposed to be long gone is coming back which upsets me more than anything. Give me Captain Jack or give me death.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

The fact that Capaldi was announced in a special show with it's own timeslot says it all really. Regeneration should go back to being a shock event, where it can only be seen live on tv, not have months of hype leading up to it. If they still want the hype, keep regenerations to Christmas time only, just don't say which Christmas and that way it will be more exciting to watch every year, with real stakes.

This is implausible now. The enthusiast press prevents something like the hiring of an actor from staying secret for that long. An announcement show ended up being the way they regained some sort of control over that particular narrative. Either it gets out via reports leaked by agents/production entities, or they keep control of it themselves and turn it into its own press thing.

But the idea of hiring a new Doctor and nobody finds out about it until after an episode's been delivered is pretty much 100% dead.

I dont' think you need to reboot - that plays further into the superheroization of the character, honestly. That's how you solve a superheroes tonal/continuity problems. I do think that making him less of a Superhero, making him less the sole focus of a story's conflict, lowering the stakes, and less calling back to previous incarnations will do wonders for people being able to find something relatable and involving.

Not that it isn't right now. The show isn't failing or anything. It's just every now and then, some annoying sameyness starts to creep in around the corners, and it's stuff that seems frustratingly easy to deal with. Creating characters for us to care for, and then having the Doctor come in and help them, shifts the focus slightly, while still allowing for the Doctor's characterization to grow. Show should be less about how the universe keeps changing the Doctor, and more about how a changing Doctor keeps helping people all over the universe. Sometimes those are huge stories. Sometimes they're much smaller ones. But we shouldn't be focused on how hard it is for the Doctor to be such a superhero all the damn time. Focusing on the people he's saving is just as important.

 

[HeavyMetalLover91]

I dont' think you need to reboot - that plays further into the superheroization of the character, honestly. That's how you solve a superheroes tonal/continuity problems. I do think that making him less of a Superhero, making him less the sole focus of a story's conflict, lowering the stakes, and calling back to previous incarnations will do wonders for people being able to find something relatable and involving.

I absolutely agree, I don't want a reboot at all, I love the history the show has and how they can make reference to things that happened decades ago. What I want to see is a bit more forward planning, a bit like how they did with River Song. She was a shit character but I appreciated her setup.

Not that it isn't right now. The show isn't failing or anything. It's just every now and then, some annoying sameyness starts to creep in around the corners, and it's stuff that seems frustratingly easy to deal with. Creating characters for us to care for, and then having the Doctor come in and help them, shifts the focus slightly, while still allowing for the Doctor's characterization to grow. Show should be less about how the universe keeps changing the Doctor, and more about how a changing Doctor keeps helping people all over the universe. Sometimes those are huge stories. Sometimes they're much smaller ones. But we shouldn't be focused on how hard it is for the Doctor to be such a superhero all the damn time. Focusing on the people he's saving is just as important.

This is also when I enjoyed the show the most. I don't care if he has a long staying companion or if it's a one-episode deal. Some of the best episodes have been ones where we learn about the character of the week first, and then the Doctor comes in a little later to help them out. That's what the show should be. Not the Doctor circle jerk that's been going on for the last 5 years.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I think it's the continuity aspect that Moffat can't help fucking with, and that leads to the idea that everything needs to tie into everything else and be very large-scaled at that, and I don't think it does. The River thing was cool - but then it became uncool (and it also highlighted the fact that there's not much variation in his "capable woman" type: Amy/River/Missy/Clara, etc..) and I really do feel like while it's awesome to get those cool flashbacks to older Doctors, it's also starting to sorta get in the way. Watching Four turn into One turn into Twelve was super-cool. I liked it a lot. But you keep hitting that particular button, and eventually people are just going to wonder why the Doctor isn't just the Doctor's own companion.

It's the superhero thing all over again: Why develop any new characters to pay attention to when you can just team your superhero up with another superhero? That's more fun!

Hell, that's kinda what's happening with Missy so far.

edit: Come to think of it, I wonder if that's an aspect of why the ratings stay high in America but are dropping in Britain.

 

[acheron_xl]

It's the superhero thing all over again: Why develop any new characters to pay attention to when you can just team your superhero up with another superhero? That's more fun!

Hell, that's kinda what's happening with Missy so far.

Romana III for new companion. (or is it IV now?)