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[HeavyMetalLover91]

I think it's the continuity aspect that Moffat can't help fucking with, and that leads to the idea that everything needs to tie into everything else and be very large-scaled at that, and I don't think it does. The River thing was cool - but then it became uncool (and it also highlighted the fact that there's not much variation in his "capable woman" type: Amy/River/Missy/Clara, etc..) and I really do feel like while it's awesome to get those cool flashbacks to older Doctors, it's also starting to sorta get in the way. Watching Four turn into One turn into Twelve was super-cool. I liked it a lot. But you keep hitting that particular button, and eventually people are just going to wonder why the Doctor isn't just the Doctor's own companion.

It's the superhero thing all over again: Why develop any new characters to pay attention to when you can just team your superhero up with another superhero? That's more fun!

Hell, that's kinda what's happening with Missy so far.

Bolded - which episode was that? Was that last week's when he spoke about wearing the scarf?

This week's. Quick little bit of business as Missy is telling Clara the story. Four comes running out behind a pillar, crosses behind another one, comes out as One, ducks behind another one, and when the camera comes around again, it's Twelve.

EDIT - Ah ok, yeah I remember now. Thought it was kinda dumb that the explanation they went with was 12 cus 'lol all his faces are the same to me' but was a fun moment nonetheless.

Yeah, the continuity is appreciated but I would rather put it to one side in favour of some more personal stories with regular characters and how there's this guy that has seen all of space and time and how he can use his knowledge to help them. That's probably why I just kind of eye roll at episodes such as this week's, I know because of the continuity that nothing really extraordinary is going to happen.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Bolded - which episode was that? Was that last week's when he spoke about wearing the scarf?

This week's. Quick little bit of business as Missy is telling Clara the story. Four comes running out behind a pillar, crosses behind another one, comes out as One, ducks behind another one, and when the camera comes around again, it's Twelve.

 

[Blader]

The fact that Capaldi was announced in a special show with it's own timeslot says it all really. Regeneration should go back to being a shock event, where it can only be seen live on tv, not have months of hype leading up to it. If they still want the hype, keep regenerations to Christmas time only, just don't say which Christmas and that way it will be more exciting to watch every year, with real stakes.

That's not really possible. It would leak months in advance. That's the whole reason they do those press events: to get out ahead of the public learning in some other backchannel way (and even then there was a lot of rumors and rumblings about Capaldi getting the job). There's just too many people involved to keep something like that under wraps for any remotely long period of time.

 

[Exterminieren]

They tried to keep Eccleston's regeneration into Tennant quiet.

It leaked in the week after Rose aired, and their cack-handed PR response helped sour Eccleston's relationship with the programme ever since. That's not something they're keen on repeating.

 

[HeavyMetalLover91]

They tried to keep Eccleston's regeneration into Tennant quiet.

It leaked in the week after Rose aired, and their cack-handed PR response helped sour Eccleston's relationship with the programme ever since. That's not something they're keen on repeating.

Just out of interest what was their cack-handed PR response? I was only a kid back then so I actually had the pleasure of watching it live on TV as it happened lol.

 

[davidcotton]

Romana III for new companion. (or is it IV now?)

IV now if you include the audio's. BF cast Juliet Landau as Romana III (or Trey)...

 

[Goldrush]

This week's. Quick little bit of business as Missy is telling Clara the story. Four comes running out behind a pillar, crosses behind another one, comes out as One, ducks behind another one, and when the camera comes around again, it's Twelve.

Was that story a callback to an actual episode?

 

[Exterminieren]

Just out of interest what was their cack-handed PR response? I was only a kid back then so I actually had the pleasure of watching it live on TV as it happened lol.

They put out a statement that Eccleston left for fear of type-casting, and the reason was nothing of the sort. Eccleston was pissed off, the fans were even more so... It was just a nightmare.

 

[Ophelion]

They put out a statement that Eccleston left for fear of type-casting, and the reason was nothing of the sort. Eccleston was pissed off, the fans were even more so... It was just a nightmare.

They should have just pulled out the old ever-reliable "creative differences" card.

 

[Chariot]

They put out a statement that Eccleston left for fear of type-casting, and the reason was nothing of the sort. Eccleston was pissed off, the fans were even more so... It was just a nightmare.

Oh, that wasn't why he left? I was wrong all this time. What happened then? I mean before that PR-statement.

 

[tomtom94]

That's not really possible. It would leak months in advance. That's the whole reason they do those press events: to get out ahead of the public learning in some other backchannel way (and even then there was a lot of rumors and rumblings about Capaldi getting the job). There's just too many people involved to keep something like that under wraps for any remotely long period of time.

Plus, hype and publicity do help generate casual interest in the show - which is where most of the ratings come from.

Since we're getting into "why Moffat is the devil" territory again, I was thinking about this when I had my big NuWho rewatch over the summer, and I think it boils down to two main problems:

1) What he is good at writing and what he wants to write are mutually exclusive. Specifically, he enjoys writing long complex myth arcs. What he's good at writing are small self-contained stories.

2) He writes the conclusions of his long plots before he writes the actual plotting. The upshot is less deus ex machina; the downside is the pacing goes very wonky (as happened in series 6 and 8)

Now, for what it's worth, RTD had two main problems as well, specifically his love of camp and cheese and the inability to write a decent plot resolution... but he also had a lot of gratitude for bringing the show back, which Moffat obviously doesn't have.

I can't help but feel once Moffat's gone he'll be defended by people who dislike whoever takes over. It's cyclical. I do feel Moffat (and the show as a whole, to a lesser extent) went through a lean period between "Big Bang" and somewhere in the middle of season 7B, but the quality has trended above average for the most part since then, and they seem to have learned the lessons from the seasons which didn't work.The first two-parter was fun and halfway intelligent and that's all I really want.

(I do, however, think Moffat ought to step down as showrunner at some point in the next couple of years, if only to refresh things.)

 

[Hot Coldman]

I too think we don't need any more visual gags involving older Doctors, what they wore, shit like that. The 50th anniversary wasn't that long ago.

That's why S8 was cool, just a bunch of new shit after a year of nostalgia. Let's keep it that way, yeah?

 

[liquidtmd]

We are all aware that the episode being extoled as a good example of how to do things vs the "Moffat Way" was also written by Steven Moffat, yes? Ok, just making sure.

Yeah I get you - I am aware Maybe I could have been more clear, but Moffats preferred take from a showrunner perspective for four + years now has been one of 'the Doctor has planned and is aware of the solution and situation he's in ahead of time, all the time superhero stylee'

Dramatically it lowers the stakes. Its killed nigh on four years worth of finales personally from a story perspective. I know many like it but the Big Bang / Pandorica Opens is perhaps the biggest pile of gibberish I've seen in Who History. It sets up a narrative problem and, when tasked with explaining it, waves its hands and says 'ahh the Doctor / timey wimey / all part of the plan'.

Likewise TWORS in equal measure.

 

[Quick Mustard]

Sorry if this has been posted, final ratings in for The Magician's Apprentice.

Originally aired September 19 on BBC One, 'The Magician's Apprentice' has a consolidated 7-day rating of 6.54 million viewers.

It does not include audiences for repeat showings, which would bump the total average audience to 7.33m.

Total iPlayer figures for the episode - on television, PC / laptop, tablets and smartphones - amount to 1.53 million requests.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s7/doctor-who/news/a670871/doctor-whos-series-9-premiere-gets-2m-ratings-bump-in-final-figures.html#~ppBJtvI7aXrnvR

Not bad at all. Nothing to worry about in my opinion.

 

[Exterminieren]

Oh, that wasn't why he left? I was wrong all this time. What happened then? I mean before that PR-statement.

He had a falling out with some of the higher-ups- notably, he had a big falling out with Phil Collinson, the producer at the time.

Eccleston has declined to go into detail about the whole thing due to professional courtesy, but he was annoyed by the Beeb's PR angle.

 

[Ophelion]

Yeah I get you - I am aware Maybe I could have been more clear, but Moffats preferred take from a showrunner perspective for four + years now has been one of 'the Doctor has planned and is aware of the solution and situation he's in ahead of time, all the time superhero stylee'

Dramatically it lowers the stakes. Its killed nigh on four years worth of finales personally from a story perspective. I know many like it but the Big Bang / Pandorica Opens is perhaps the biggest pile of gibberish I've seen in Who History. It sets up a narrative problem and, when tasked with explaining it, waves its hands and says 'ahh the Doctor / timey wimey / all part of the plan'.

Likewise TWORS in equal measure.

Maybe this is just a different perspective on these stories, then. Because I don't feel like Moffat's Doctor (and especially the Eleventh Doctor) has been so much a master planner as he is a cosmic-level speed chess player. That he threads the needle in the moment is the most impressive thing about a lot of those close escapes for me. "Show up, talk really fast, think of a solution, take the credit." Maybe I'm just given the show the benefit of the doubt with this, but personally, even if the Doctor says he had a plan the whole time, I don't believe him unless it seems like the only way the plan would've worked.

Kinda like this two parter, though. The Twelfth had to have planned a good portion of this out in advance in order to get the result he wanted. At the very least, putting Missy in play with the confession dial and the long con about nobly going to face his death and all that pageantry. The only thing I'm not sure about is if he planned it down to knowing Davros would try to drain him of his regeneration energy or if he just stepped into that trap as he saw it forming in front of him because he saw the fatal flaw in it and just figured, "Might as well let the fool destroy himself."

 

[tuffy]

The only thing I'm not sure about is if he planned it down to knowing Davros would try to drain him of his regeneration energy or if he just stepped into that trap as he saw it forming in front of him because he saw the fatal flaw in it and just figured, "Might as well let the fool destroy himself."

I like to think that the Doctor suspected Davros might really be dying, and he went through with it anyway in order to prevent that from happening because he's the Doctor and that's what he does.

 

[zeemumu]

I like to think that the Doctor suspected Davros might really be dying, and he went through with it anyway in order to prevent that from happening because he's the Doctor and that's what he does.

Like he thought there was a 1 in 1000 chance that Davros was being sincere?

 

[Ophelion]

Like he thought there was a 1 in 1000 chance that Davros was being sincere?

And sometimes you've just got to ignore the 1000 and focus on the 1.

I can dig that. But he still had to install a lot of machinations into the visit because only an idiot would walk into an audience with Davros and not have a "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" backup plan.

 

[Chariot]

And sometimes you've just got to ignore the 1000 and focus on the 1.

I can dig that. But he still had to install a lot of machinations into the visit because only an idiot would walk into an audience with Davros and not have a "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" backup plan.

He did. He called Missy in.

 

[Ophelion]

He did. He called Missy in.

Exactly. And then Missy tapped Clara as her backup plan. Sadly for Clara, she is plotting nothing and is just caught in the crossfire between three alien masterminds. Wheels within wheels.

 

[Exterminieren]

It's a long-established trait of Moffat's Doctor to claim that he has a masterplan when he's actually just winging it. I see no reason to consider this week's example any differently.

If Davros is being sincere, then he helps an old man have a dignified death. If he isn't, then the Doctor knows enough about Skaro to turn the tables. It doesn't mean that he had a full idea of what was going to go down when Colony Sarff picked him up, but he put the pieces together quickly enough to ensure that all his options were covered.

 

[Ophelion]

It's a long-established trait of Moffat's Doctor to claim that he has a masterplan when he's actually just winging it. I see no reason to consider this week's example any differently.

If Davros is being sincere, then he helps an old man have a dignified death. If he isn't, then the Doctor knows enough about Skaro to turn the tables. It doesn't mean that he had a full idea of what was going to go down when Colony Sarff picked him up, but he put the pieces together quickly enough to ensure that all his options were covered.

Fair enough. I can see it.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Was that story a callback to an actual episode?

It didn't ring a bell, though I've a huge gap in my knowledge with the 1st, 2nd, and 6th doctors. I was curious as well but can't find anything online. I'm not even finding anything about it on Gallifrey Base, but I try to stay away from there as much as possible to maintain my sanity.

 

[Ophelion]

It didn't ring a bell, though I've a huge gap in my knowledge with the 1st, 2nd, and 6th doctors. I was curious as well but can't find anything online. I'm not even finding anything about it on Gallifrey Base, but I try to stay away from there as much as possible to maintain my sanity.

I'm pretty sure it was an original scenario that rang true enough that you'd just go, "Yeah, probably happened to him at some point."

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'm pretty sure it was an original scenario that rang true enough that you'd just go, "Yeah, probably happened to him at some point."

Well it worked then!

Maybe this is just a different perspective on these stories, then. Because I don't feel like Moffat's Doctor (and especially the Eleventh Doctor) has been so much a master planner as he is a cosmic-level speed chess player. That he threads the needle in the moment is the most impressive thing about a lot of those close escapes for me. "Show up, talk really fast, think of a solution, take the credit." Maybe I'm just given the show the benefit of the doubt with this, but personally, even if the Doctor says he had a plan the whole time, I don't believe him unless it seems like the only way the plan would've worked.

Kinda like this two parter, though. The Twelfth had to have planned a good portion of this out in advance in order to get the result he wanted. At the very least, putting Missy in play with the confession dial and the long con about nobly going to face his death and all that pageantry. The only thing I'm not sure about is if he planned it down to knowing Davros would try to drain him of his regeneration energy or if he just stepped into that trap as he saw it forming in front of him because he saw the fatal flaw in it and just figured, "Might as well let the fool destroy himself."

I figure, Davros telegraphed that he wanted the Doctor to touch the cables. He telegraphed that he knew his weakness was compassion and then turned on the waterworks. Then he gave the Doctor what, 10 whole minutes to consider the possibilities. I honestly found this one of the least bullshit of Moffat's bullshit gotcha resolutions.

 

[Boem]

Was that story a callback to an actual episode?

It wasn't. There have been plenty of robots, and plenty of invisible monsters (never invisible robots I think), but that exact scenario has never happened. But, as others have said, the Doctor has a lot of adventures we'll never see. Big Finish will probably tell that story at some point. They always pick up on those throwaway lines.

 

[Ophelion]

It wasn't. There have been plenty of robots, and plenty of invisible monsters (never invisible robots I think), but that exact scenario has never happened. But, as others have said, the Doctor has a lot of adventures we'll never see. Big Finish will probably tell that story at some point. They always pick up on those throwaway lines.

It'll be funny to see which Doctor it actually happened to. Has to be Forth or Eighth if they go that way because he used his sonic to escape and Fifth, Sixth and Seventh didn't use the Sonic.

 

[tuffy]

It wasn't. There have been plenty of robots, and plenty of invisible monsters (never invisible robots I think), but that exact scenario has never happened. But, as others have said, the Doctor has a lot of adventures we'll never see. Big Finish will probably tell that story at some point. They always pick up on those throwaway lines.

It'd make sense for that scenario not to have happened since the whole story was something Missy invented to explain what she'd just done to escape the Daleks in the previous episode - only with some names switched around.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Heh it's funny thinking now about how they were so serious about killing off the damn screwdriver for the back half of the classic series.

"I feel as if you've killed an old friend"

Oh, nope sorry, it's back and does more nonsensical shit than ever!

That's like the new series in a nutshell, really.

 

[Boem]

About the sonic sunglasses - I don't mind the idea itself, as there have been a lot of sillier ideas on the show, but I was really looking forward to having a screwdriver-less Doctor for a while. I thought that was the statement they were going to make. I'd rather have them go all the way with that, and that's what bummed me out - not necessarily the fact that they're sunglasses in itself.

It'd make sense for that scenario not to have happened since the whole story was something Missy invented to explain what she'd just done to escape the Daleks in the previous episode - only with some names switched around.

I think the idea was that it actually happened, and that the Doctor was able to figure it out in seconds while Missy had to prepare for ages (showing a bit of respect for him, which is a theme in these two episodes - a reminder that they're actually friends and that the Master looks up to the Doctor, and that they're not 'just' enemies).

 

[Ophelion]

Heh it's funny thinking now about how they were so serious about killing off the damn screwdriver for the back half of the classic series.

"I feel as if you've killed an old friend"

Oh, nope sorry, it's back and does more nonsensical shit than ever!

That's like the new series in a nutshell, really.

Yeah, maybe it will stay destroyed for a while now. Try the whole "saving the universe with a kettle and some string" thing for a while again.

Though I would be no more or less surprised to see it return without a word said about it in the very next episode either.

 

[Blues1990]

I feel so out of the loop with the new series. I haven't had a chance to watch most of the episodes with the new Doctor (despite loving Peter Capaldi's role in the comedy 'In the Loop'). I did check out the episode 'Flatline,' which I thought was a fantastic, if genuinely unsettling, episode.

Any recommendations?

 

[Ophelion]

I feel so out of the loop with the new series. I haven't had a chance to watch most of the episodes with the new Doctor (despite loving Peter Capaldi's role in the comedy 'In the Loop'). I did check out the episode 'Flatline,' which I thought was a fantastic, if genuinely unsettling, episode.

Any recommendations?

Mummy on the Orient Express is the one absolute Must-See episode of that season.

Episodes I enjoyed but your mileage may vary on are: Into the Dalek, Time Heist, Listen (very moffaty), And the two-parter season finale if only for the parts with Missy.

 

[Chariot]

I feel so out of the loop with the new series. I haven't had a chance to watch most of the episodes with the new Doctor (despite loving Peter Capaldi's role in the comedy 'In the Loop'). I did check out the episode 'Flatline,' which I thought was a fantastic, if genuinely unsettling, episode.

Any recommendations?

Mummy on the Orient Express. Listen. Time Heist.

 

[Boem]

I feel so out of the loop with the new series. I haven't had a chance to watch most of the episodes with the new Doctor (despite loving Peter Capaldi's role in the comedy 'In the Loop'). I did check out the episode 'Flatline,' which I thought was a fantastic, if genuinely unsettling, episode.

Any recommendations?

Listen was my favorite by far, but it's a bit of a divisive episode because of one or two plot elements. Regardless, I think it's worth a watch. Capaldi gets to do a lot of good stuff there.

 

[Mudcrab]

Time Heist is a good one. I found myself liking that ep much more after a second viewing.

 

[paradox121]

Listen was my favorite by far, but it's a bit of a divisive episode because of one or two plot elements. Regardless, I think it's worth a watch. Capaldi gets to do a lot of good stuff there.

Listen is like pure, undiluted Moffat. If you don't rate him as a writer then it's probably the worst. If you do, then it's a classic. Which is the correct answer. I'd give it a go either way because it's a very unique piece of TV aside from everything else.

I'd personally say if you want a feel for S8 go for Into the Dalek, Listen and Mummy.

Add in the finale if you want a sense of where the show is heading if you're interested in picking it up this year.

Also everyone recommending Time Heist is mindblowing to me. The vast array of opinions on literally every aspect of Doctor Who will always amuse/scare me.

 

[Boem]

Also everyone recommending Time Heist is mindblowing to me. The vast array of opinions on literally every aspect of Doctor Who will always amuse/scare me.

Yeah, same here, that episode was one of my least favorites (along with Forest and the Robin Hood episode, although that one gets a pass because me and my girlfriend were incredibly drunk when we were watching it and were cracking up at all the wrong moments. Not a good episode, very good memories).

I didn't really like any of the side characters and didn't think much of the story at all. But, as with almost every Doctor Who story, it's so subjective. The show can be so many different things to different people, so I won't try to convince people who liked it that it's not that good.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Time Heist wasn't great, but it was solid fun.

Not as good as Kill the Moon, Into the Dalek, Mummy on the Orient Express or Flatline, but it was solidly ahead of the rest of that season.

 

[Ophelion]

Listen is like pure, undiluted Moffat. If you don't rate him as a writer then it's probably the worst. If you do, then it's a classic. Which is the correct answer. I'd give it a go either way because it's a very unique piece of TV aside from everything else.

I'd personally say if you want a feel for S8 go for Into the Dalek, Listen and Mummy.

Add in the finale if you want a sense of where the show is heading if you're interested in picking it up this year.

Also everyone recommending Time Heist is mindblowing to me. The vast array of opinions on literally every aspect of Doctor Who will always amuse/scare me.

Lol at the first bolded. Agree with you, but still, lol.

As for Time Heist, I was really disappointed with it when I watched it the first time. On repeat viewings, its really grown on me though. The idea that the Doctor

Spoiler

set up this whole heist to save these rare and beautiful creatures we thought were just monsters

is so Doctor Who it hurts. Also the Doctor's relationship to Keeley Hawes' character(s) was very interesting I thought.

 

[acheron_xl]

Mark me down as pro Time Heist, somewhat anti Listen, which I think is quite overrated.

 

[tomtom94]

I think you have to watch Listen and make your own conclusions. I personally think it's great... apart from the closing narration.

 

[MrBadger]

Time Heist never stood out to me but it was also inoffensive. I liked it for what it was.

I probably need to give Listen a second watch because I thought it was self indulgent crap on my first watch but everyone seems to love it and say it's one of Moffat's best, soooo

 

[Htown]

Listen is amazing, Time Heist is a little bit on the good side of okay. It's fun, but I'd never put it on a "best of" list.

 

[N7Commander95]

Listen's final moments are perfect.

That narration never fails to give me chills

But I completely understand why people don't like it. It is the perfect example of a divide episode I believe

 

[Rodney McKay]

They tried to keep Eccleston's regeneration into Tennant quiet.

Yeah, I remember being surprised by that, but I wasn't following any behind the scenes stuff at all at the time.

I was actually pissed when it happened since I liked his Doctor a lot, and then I really disliked Tennant for a while, so much so I didn't even watch his first season for quite a while.

 

[Ophelion]

Listen's final moments are perfect.

That narration never fails to give me chills

But I completely understand why people don't like it. It is the perfect example of a divide episode I believe

One of the most divisive episodes since The End of Time.

God, I felt almost physically ill after that two-parter. But I've talked to people that described it as an all-time classic and the perfect end to an era. And I'm just like...how? How could you possibly think that?

But to each their own.

 

[Kuros]

Yeah, I remember being surprised by that, but I wasn't following any behind the scenes stuff at all at the time.

I was actually pissed when it happened since I liked his Doctor a lot, and then I really disliked Tennant for a while, so much so I didn't even watch his first season for quite a while.

Even in 2005 it was a hell of a lot easier keeping leaks sealed compared to 2015 IMO.

 

[Trike]

So could the Doctor let go of the cables at any time? Or was his plan to use all of his regeneration energy to possibly kill some of the Daleks and himself? Only thing that bugged me. He had no idea that Missy would be there to save him. The only way it makes sense is if he realized how badly he fucked up, Missy saved him, and then acted like it was his plan all along.