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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons

O

Ophelion

Member
Blader said:
End of Time was quite bad for most of that two-parter, but I still maintain the four knocks reveal and Tennant's frustrated anger at it is the best written and acted bit of the entire show (NuWho at least) thus far.
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To me that moment was the epitome of everything Russell T. Davies: overblown, melodramatic, loud and clumsy. In retrospect, I don't actually hate it. It's quite good for what it is, but at the time I was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo done with RTD, in much the same way many people feel about Moffat now and I don't think I will ever be able to watch that scene without an echo of the venom I felt at the time.

hamchan said:
Felt much more emotion in the End of Time than the entirety of Moffat's run though.
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Of course. The whole two-parter is an engine designed to do little more than awkwardly claw at your heartstrings until you're bawling like a small child. Making people feel feels is the only thing that story does competently.

But, but! I don't think anyone is dumb or whatever for liking that show. I get why people would like it. I just don't. And I don't hold hard feelings for people that aren't crazy about Big Bang or Listen or whatever Moffatty madness I'm into. I'm really glad you guys stuck around, even if you're not as keen on what's going on in Who today as you were back then. Because arguing about Who would be dull if it were an echo chamber, wouldn't it?

I'm sure things will change sooner rather than later and we'll all get to swap enthusiasm hats again.
 
E

Exterminieren

Banned
I felt more emotion at Matt Smith's Doctor chatting with sleeping Amelia at the end of The Big Bang, or the Doctor realising that he was going to Trenzalore in The Name of the Doctor than I did with RTD beating me around the head with feels for nearly two and a half hours. There is some powerful and heartfelt emotion to be found in RTD's Who, but it sure as hell isn't in The End of Time, Doctor/Wilf conversations aside.
 
O

Ophelion

Member
Exterminieren said:
I felt more emotion at Matt Smith's Doctor chatting with sleeping Amelia at the end of The Big Bang, or the Doctor realising that he was going to Trenzalore in The Name of the Doctor than I did with RTD beating me around the head with feels for nearly two and a half hours. There is some powerful and heartfelt emotion to be found in RTD's Who, but it sure as hell isn't in The End of Time, Doctor/Wilf conversations aside.
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That moment and the scene like just before it where he tells Amy, "You don't need your imaginary friend anymore."

So, so good.

Actually, that scene in Dark Water where the Doctor says to Clara, "Do you really think I care so little for you that betraying me would make a difference?"

I was like, "*sniffle* Oh, Doctor. You got me again."
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
I loved Dalton as Rassilon in EoT (except the spitting).

The funniest bit was the doctor pointing a gun at him like it was going to do anything with that gauntlet thing he had on.

I'd love to see him reprise the role at some point.
 
M

MrBadger

Member
Blader said:
End of Time was quite bad for most of that two-parter, but I still maintain the four knocks reveal and Tennant's frustrated anger at it is the best written and acted bit of the entire show (NuWho at least) thus far.
Click to expand...

That was a very fitting end for the Tenth Doctor, how towards the end he was starting to get a sense of superiority before realising that the moment he dies isn't fighting off the Timelords, it's saving Wilf. Really liked that and a lot of the moments like it in End of Time, stupid master race storyline and cringeworthy Obama subplot be damned.

Sir_Crocodile said:
I loved Dalton as Rassilon in EoT (except the spitting).

The funniest bit was the doctor pointing a gun at him like it was going to do anything with that gauntlet thing he had on.

I'd love to see him reprise the role at some point.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the Spitlord was great. I'd be interested in seeing him return too and I don't think it's completely off the table considering Julian Bleach returned to reprise the role of Davros. And the finale will almost definitely be timelord related.
 
B

Blader

Member
Exterminieren said:
I felt more emotion at Matt Smith's Doctor chatting with sleeping Amelia at the end of The Big Bang, or the Doctor realising that he was going to Trenzalore in The Name of the Doctor than I did with RTD beating me around the head with feels for nearly two and a half hours. There is some powerful and heartfelt emotion to be found in RTD's Who, but it sure as hell isn't in The End of Time, Doctor/Wilf conversations aside.
Click to expand...

That was a little too overly weepy for me. Now, if you'd said Clara meeting old-man Eleven in Time of the Doctor, helping him pull open the Christmas cracker, I'd totally agree.

(the fact that the scene uses the exact same music as Tennant's rage against the dying of the light speech probably helped too, lol)

Sir_Crocodile said:
I loved Dalton as Rassilon in EoT (except the spitting).

The funniest bit was the doctor pointing a gun at him like it was going to do anything with that gauntlet thing he had on.

I'd love to see him reprise the role at some point.
Click to expand...

Not that just, but pivoting between the Master and Rassilon about a half dozen times.
 
O

Ophelion

Member
Sir_Crocodile said:
I loved Dalton as Rassilon in EoT (except the spitting).

The funniest bit was the doctor pointing a gun at him like it was going to do anything with that gauntlet thing he had on.

I'd love to see him reprise the role at some point.
Click to expand...

Oh, dude, he chewed so much scenery. It was amazing. That's how Gallifrey was really destroyed, don't you know. Rassilon just kept chewing scenery until there was no planet left.
 
S

Symphonia

Banned
Gallifrey seems to be being bought up and focused on a fair bit already, with the mention of the Time War and Davros asking why the Doctor really ran away from Gallifrey. I think the finale will involve Gallifrey and/or the Time Lords. If it does, Dalton needs to be brought back in as Rassilon.
 
O

Ophelion

Member
Biforce Of Power said:
Gallifrey seems to be being bought up and focused on a fair bit already, with the mention of the Time War and Davros asking why the Doctor really ran away from Gallifrey. I think the finale will involve Gallifrey and/or the Time Lords. If it does, Dalton needs to be brought back in as Rassilon.
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Dalton vs. Capaldi is a heavyweight match not to be missed. If I was the actor play the companion I'd be scared as shit to be in a scene like that. You'd just be thinking, "Don't be shit, don't be shit, don't be shit..."
 
Q

Quick

Banned
The End of Time was a good send-off to 10. The cast really brought their A-game with their performance, Tennant especially.

Tennant was at his best at the most quiet moments with Bernard Cribbins to play off of. 10 and Wilf at the bar and at the ship, but most especially when Wilf was trapped in the glass booth and he had a monologue. Really brought his stage actor out.

For me, the best scene has to be 10 travelling back to New Years 2005 and seeing Rose. Best possible way to end things for both RTD and the 10th Doctor.

The End of Time was clearly made purely as a finale to 10. The story was secondary to the regeneration event, but it wasn't bad at all. It mixes in the right amount of silliness with the most serious of circumstances.

Now, The Time of the Doctor plays it similarly. It's clearly a regeneration event with story as second fiddle. It was extremely Christmasy, which I thought was perfect. RTD's Christmas Specials have never reached the levels of Moffat's in terms of really celebrating the holidays. But I do love RTD's sense of consistency with having Santa Claus and those trumpets playing to begin the episode.

And I also like how the Doctor regenerates under less dire conditions (save for the Dalek attacking Trenzalore). He just got really old. Considering how young Matt Smith looked, I thought that was amusing.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Were Christmas specials a thing in Old Who? I don't much like them, apart from the gag once where every was out of town on Christmas because bad stuff always happened then.
 
B

BatDan

Bane? Get them on board, I'll call it in.
Ignatz Mouse said:
Were Christmas specials a thing in Old Who? I don't much like them, apart from the gag once where every was out of town on Christmas because bad stuff always happened then.
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Just one as far as I know. Part 7 of The Dalek's Master Plan "The Feast of Steven". It's one of the rare instances where the Doctor directly breaks the fourth wall.
It's also one of missing episodes, and likely has no chance of recovery as the BBC never licensed it out.
 
S

Symphonia

Banned
Ophelion said:
Dalton vs. Capaldi is a heavyweight match not to be missed. If I was the actor play the companion I'd be scared as shit to be in a scene like that. You'd just be thinking, "Don't be shit, don't be shit, don't be shit..."
Click to expand...
I think a Twelve vs Rassilon fight would be the best way to see Capaldi out of the show, and/or whoever his companion is at the time. It could be done on an epic scale, budget pending. Make it happen, BBC.
 
G

GulAtiCa

Member
I found the Christmas episodes to be hit or miss. Esp the earlier ones.

I did like some of them. My favorite so far are:
Last Christmas (esp due to how creepy/scary it can be)
The Snowmen (Loved it!)
The Time of the Doctor (Did like it, but not my favorite)
The Runaway Bride (Doctor Donna!)
 
P

peanutbutterlatte

Member
I'd be down for both Dalton and Simm returning for "Night of the Master".

There's been plenty of emotional moments in both RTD/Moffatt Who to be honest. I was Kuwabara levels of over RTD when End of Time came out, though I can still appreciate it. Even if Ten was vamping like a bastard, he'd sort of earned it.

Matt Smith had me in tears at least twice every season. For all the episodes faults, the little frustrated cry he gives after Amy gets zapped in ATM killed me.
 
O

Ophelion

Member
So, here's a little something I feel I should admit. I somehow didn't see the shot of empty space at the end of Death in Heaven last season when the Doctor goes to check the co-ordinates Missy sent him.

So, the way that scene played out for me was he set the co-ordinates, hesitated at the door, shut it, walked back and just started beating the hell out of the console.

I remember thinking, "Oh, god. She killed them all somehow, didn't she? She left Gallifrey a dead world for him to find like a cat leaving the corpse of a mouse."

I was kind of relieved and strangely disappointed when I figured out I was mistaken because that moment was fucking real for me, man.
 
T

tomtom94

Member
Time is kinda alright. Lots of action, some clever ideas, a lot of filler and I found it difficult to get invested with the whole 'and the Doctor stayed there for five hundred years' thing. SHOW, DON'T TELL.

I read recently that apparently Moffat had planned for the stuff on Trenzalore to take up series 8, back when it was thought Smith was still around, and then compressed the ideas into the special. Kind of makes sense when you look at it that way
and thank fuck we didn't get that

I do like the way Smith just suddenly turns into Capaldi at the end though. That was a nice twist on the format.

(my fave Christmas special is A Christmas Carol followed by Runaway Bride)
 
P

paradox121

Member
peanutbutterlatte said:
Matt Smith had me in tears at least twice every season. For all the episodes faults, the little frustrated cry he gives after Amy gets zapped in ATM killed me.
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There's something very child-like about him when he cries. Like in The Doctor's Wife, once Idris 'dies' that little sob he gives and the way he holds his body is heartbreaking.

I'm fairly sure I've never flat out cried during Who, but the two times I came close were Old Amy trying to get into the TARDIS at the end of The Girl Who Waited and Donna's memory wipe in Journey's End.

The modern series is at its best when it builds up very tangible friendships (10/Donna, 11/Amy, Amy/Rory) and then just takes a knife to them. That's why I'm dreading Clara leaving. Cuz you know Capaldi and Coleman will act the hell out of their final scenes together.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
paradox121 said:
There's something very child-like about him when he cries. Like in The Doctor's Wife, once Idris 'dies' that little sob he gives and the way he holds his body is heartbreaking.

I'm fairly sure I've never flat out cried during Who, but the two times I came close were Old Amy trying to get into the TARDIS at the end of The Girl Who Waited and Donna's memory wipe in Journey's End.

The modern series is at its best when it builds up very tangible friendships (10/Donna, 11/Amy, Amy/Rory) and then just takes a knife to them. That's why I'm dreading Clara leaving. Cuz you know Capaldi and Coleman will act the hell out of their final scenes together.
Click to expand...

Well, we already got a few final scenes. The old Clara scene in last year's Christmas special really should have been her exit from the series.
 
O

Ophelion

Member
tomtom94 said:
Time is kinda alright. Lots of action, some clever ideas, a lot of filler and I found it difficult to get invested with the whole 'and the Doctor stayed there for five hundred years' thing. SHOW, DON'T TELL.
Click to expand...

It could have been done without any telling if they cut the voiceovers and the montages and cut from him young to Clara going back to try and find him and discovering that he's that fragile old wizard, making toys for children. That would've said it all I think.
 
K

Kinsei

Banned
SigmasonicX said:
Well, we already got a few final scenes. The old Clara scene in last year's Christmas special really should have been her exit from the series.
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That or The Witch's Familiar. A companion departing at the end of the first story of the series would have been a nice twist for NuWho.
 
B

Boem

Member
Kinsei said:
That or The Witch's Familiar. A companion departing at the end of the first story of the series would have been a nice twist for NuWho.
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If the rumor about next year just having some specials is true, I wouldn't be surprised if the Doctor will be companionless for a little while, maybe picking up someone new during the last special or the first episode of the season after that.
 
K

Kinsei

Banned
Boem said:
If the rumor about next year just having some specials is true, I wouldn't be surprised if the Doctor will be companionless for a little while, maybe picking up someone new during the last special or the first episode of the season after that.
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Another Donna > Amy situation? Blegh, I want Clara gone and replaced ASAP.
 
C

Chariot

Member
Clara in the Dalek was the perfect setup for a companionless Doctor - either because he is searching for her or because he feels remorse of being him and getting her pretty much killd/in that situation. If there were any void Missy could've appeared now and then as the least dependable companion ever.
 
O

Ophelion

Member
Chariot said:
Pretty strange that Jenna Coleman didn't say anything. She should've know by now.
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It's a losing battle and one of those points of contention between fans and the general public that just isn't worth fretting over. Everyone knows what people mean. Even Capaldi calls the character Doctor Who in interviews sometimes and he's a lifelong Whovian.
 
B

Boem

Member
Platy said:
He says the name of the character is doctor who =|
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Chariot said:
Pretty strange that Jenna Coleman didn't say anything. She should've know by now.

But yeah, Conan is such a barbarian.
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Ophelion said:
It's a losing battle and one of those points of contention between fans and the general public that just isn't worth fretting over. Everyone knows what people mean. Even Capaldi calls the character Doctor Who in interviews sometimes and he's a lifelong Whovian.
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So did Hartnell, Throughton and Pertwee during interviews (possibly some others as well, but those I know for sure). Both Clara and Capaldi (and the older Doctors as well) obviously know that within the show he's just called the Doctor, but I think there's something charming about calling the character Doctor Who. It's immediately obvious what you're talking about to people who aren't thinking about this show as much as us, and I do like that it annoys the more hardcore fans. Just another reminder that some things about this show shouldn't be taken so seriously.

Also, the character was called 'Doctor Who' in the end credits for most of the episodes, WOTAN, an evil computer in a First Doctor adventure, started shouting 'Doctor Who is required' during a cliffhanger (you can imagine a comma there: Doctor, who is required', but that is a bit grammatically fluffy), Throughton once impersonated a German doctor to go undercover with some bad guys and called himself 'Doctor von Wer', and he also signed his own name as 'Dr. W.' at another point. So perhaps we're all wrong and he's really called Doctor Who!
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
It's just one of those dumb, inconsequential things that fans claim as a means to separate themselves from other fans. An arbitrary delineation that allows them to claim some tiny measure of superiority over other potential fans.

It's a mostly harmless brick on the road to "true" fandom. (which doesn't exist)
 
O

OmegaFax

Member
I really want a Missy-centric Doctor/Companion-Lite episode. Can't she antagonize someone else other than The Doctor? At least give Michelle Gomez some mini ... err Missy-sodes?
 
V

Veelk

Banned
So I've only seen the NuWho series, not any of the originals. Has the master ever been as much as a quasi-companion as Missy is here? I feel her role is being the evil Doctor when she's with Clara, but when both she and the Doctor are in the room together, and they're working toward the same goal, then it's a different vibe.
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
If they're gonna spring for a fuckin' mini-series I want that proposed Eighth Doctor thing before we get start running Michelle Gomez into the dirt.
 
T

tuffy

Member
Veelk said:
So I've only seen the NuWho series, not any of the originals. Has the master ever been as much as a quasi-companion as Missy is here? I feel her role is being the evil Doctor when she's with Clara, but when both she and the Doctor are in the room together, and they're working toward the same goal, then it's a different vibe.
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The Master used to regularly switch sides and help the 3rd Doctor defeat some common foe - usually after one of his own plans has gone awry. So it's not a new development.
 
R

Rimon-hanit

Member
On the emotion side:I'm going to give my vote to the beast below, "What would you do if you were so old and so wise and the very last of your kind" plus the kid crying silently, overall I would give the edge to RTD since I do love his dialogues and Tennant is tucking amazing at emotional stuff.
 
O

Ophelion

Member
Rimon-hanit said:
On the emotion side:I'm going to give my vote to the beast below, "What would you do if you were so old and so wise and the very last of your kind" plus the kid crying silently, overall I would give the edge to RTD since I do love his dialogues and Tennant is tucking amazing at emotional a stuff.
Click to expand...

I remember that episode getting a lot of hate. I always thought it was very good though.
 
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