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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
- Thread starter Quick
- Start date
She can join Torchwood and go on adventures with Captain Jack
Seriously though, The Doctor treated Jack like shit after he got immortality and learned nothing about not to do it
To be fair, Jack was chronologically stuck in existence. Maise's character is just being medically repaired forever.
One of those is abhorrent to someone so intrinsically tied into time, the other is just a meat space meat problem.
paradox121
Member
Explains why there are so many two parters- two concepts merging into one single idea. Very much a season of duality vs hybrids
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Disappointing. I had high hopes for this after Mathieson's two episodes last year, but this was something of a disaster.
Did I just watch an episode of Doctor Who, or a silly summer comedy movie? There were so many ridiculous scenes in this episode. The tone was just completely out of wack. That whole training scene was just an absolute disaster, and then the pan to the village on fire was the sort of thing I'd expect from some sort of Jack Black movie, not an episode of Doctor Who.
I also wish they'd stop it with this whole "The Doctor speaks baby" thing, as well as the whole talking to animals thing. It's ridiculous. It has no relation to how languages work, and it doesn't actually make even a lick of sense. It's just part of the general sitcomification of the show under Moffat, and the sooner we stop hearing about it, the better. And that scene where the Doctor goes on a rant to no one in particular where he's screaming "I'm the Doctor and I save people, and if anyone is listening and has a problem with that, yada yada" was a sad return to the Smith characterization of the Doctor. Enough with all of the grandstanding. This is probably the biggest disappointment I have with the show right now. After a reasonably good first season, Capaldi is just falling apart. The writing it making him into another Smith, with all the wackiness and over the top speeches and everything. At least we've been spared the awful "I am the Doctor" piece of music (although Gold's score this week was pretty weak).
This was an episode that desperately needed a rewrite. The tone shifted almost every scene. It was also seriously missing being about something. Anything. Because all we had was "The Doctor agonizes about if he should get involved" again, and then some plucky upstarts winning a fight against the odds. There's not an original thought to be found here, and this is magnified all the more by the show's inability to do anything more interesting with the writing. The Vikings might have been some stock alien culture for all of the show's unwillingness to engage with actual Viking culture at all beyond the broadest of "beards and they go on raids and Odin" thrown in there. Nothing interesting is done with the villains at all aside from the whole reputation thing. But this is a small bit that's unearned, because the script doesn't engage with them at all. They might as well have just been Sontarans. Mathieson and Moffat show a complete lack of interest in actually exploring anything about the setting or peoples at all. So all that leaves us with is the Doctor's agony over whether or not to get involved, but this isn't really an interesting dilemma on its own. We've seen this before, and we've seen it in situations where the Doctor has to agonize over situations where he already knows the end result. So this can't really hold up to that, because this is really just a stock Doctor Who story of a small group of people facing certain death and the Doctor having to save them.
And then the whole reveal of why the Doctor "chose this face" is ridiculously fanwanky, as I'm sure anyone could have expected. This doesn't actually add anything to the story. The Doctor could have come to the exact same conclusion he did without forcing that bit in there. It's just silly. No one aside from the smallest portion of die hard fans even cares that Capaldi was already in Doctor Who. This is not a story that needed to be told.
All in all, this episode was a total disappointment, and it seems to represent a return to the Series 6/7 style of storytelling, which is very disheartening for me after actually enjoying much of last season.
Did I just watch an episode of Doctor Who, or a silly summer comedy movie? There were so many ridiculous scenes in this episode. The tone was just completely out of wack. That whole training scene was just an absolute disaster, and then the pan to the village on fire was the sort of thing I'd expect from some sort of Jack Black movie, not an episode of Doctor Who.
I also wish they'd stop it with this whole "The Doctor speaks baby" thing, as well as the whole talking to animals thing. It's ridiculous. It has no relation to how languages work, and it doesn't actually make even a lick of sense. It's just part of the general sitcomification of the show under Moffat, and the sooner we stop hearing about it, the better. And that scene where the Doctor goes on a rant to no one in particular where he's screaming "I'm the Doctor and I save people, and if anyone is listening and has a problem with that, yada yada" was a sad return to the Smith characterization of the Doctor. Enough with all of the grandstanding. This is probably the biggest disappointment I have with the show right now. After a reasonably good first season, Capaldi is just falling apart. The writing it making him into another Smith, with all the wackiness and over the top speeches and everything. At least we've been spared the awful "I am the Doctor" piece of music (although Gold's score this week was pretty weak).
This was an episode that desperately needed a rewrite. The tone shifted almost every scene. It was also seriously missing being about something. Anything. Because all we had was "The Doctor agonizes about if he should get involved" again, and then some plucky upstarts winning a fight against the odds. There's not an original thought to be found here, and this is magnified all the more by the show's inability to do anything more interesting with the writing. The Vikings might have been some stock alien culture for all of the show's unwillingness to engage with actual Viking culture at all beyond the broadest of "beards and they go on raids and Odin" thrown in there. Nothing interesting is done with the villains at all aside from the whole reputation thing. But this is a small bit that's unearned, because the script doesn't engage with them at all. They might as well have just been Sontarans. Mathieson and Moffat show a complete lack of interest in actually exploring anything about the setting or peoples at all. So all that leaves us with is the Doctor's agony over whether or not to get involved, but this isn't really an interesting dilemma on its own. We've seen this before, and we've seen it in situations where the Doctor has to agonize over situations where he already knows the end result. So this can't really hold up to that, because this is really just a stock Doctor Who story of a small group of people facing certain death and the Doctor having to save them.
And then the whole reveal of why the Doctor "chose this face" is ridiculously fanwanky, as I'm sure anyone could have expected. This doesn't actually add anything to the story. The Doctor could have come to the exact same conclusion he did without forcing that bit in there. It's just silly. No one aside from the smallest portion of die hard fans even cares that Capaldi was already in Doctor Who. This is not a story that needed to be told.
All in all, this episode was a total disappointment, and it seems to represent a return to the Series 6/7 style of storytelling, which is very disheartening for me after actually enjoying much of last season.
BrokenFiction
Member
I pretty much agree with everything Charlie Jane says about it on io9:
http://io9.com/this-was-doctor-who-at-its-most-spectacular-and-heart-b-1737127630
http://io9.com/this-was-doctor-who-at-its-most-spectacular-and-heart-b-1737127630
Solid episode, very fun. The thing about Mathieson that pleases me is how confident his scripts feel. He has a good sense of pacing and theme. The comedy was fine, it helped that the Vikings weren't campy.
The false Odin face in the sky + the Benny Hill bit were goddamn hilarious.
Back when they first said that there would be something behind the Capaldi face I was expecting it to be total ass, but I surprisingly like the in-universe reason they came up with. It's unnecessary, but as it stands it's just small and ok. As long as it stays just that, I'm good.
And I guess the hybrid stuff will be the recurring thing after all? We'll see where that goes.
The false Odin face in the sky + the Benny Hill bit were goddamn hilarious.
Back when they first said that there would be something behind the Capaldi face I was expecting it to be total ass, but I surprisingly like the in-universe reason they came up with. It's unnecessary, but as it stands it's just small and ok. As long as it stays just that, I'm good.
And I guess the hybrid stuff will be the recurring thing after all? We'll see where that goes.
BrokenFiction
Member
Do we think there's anything to the fact that Struan Rodger is in next weeks episode? (He is the voice of the Face of Boe) Just a coincidence or something more?
Nitpick: kind of silly that they were a couple of days away by boat from the TARDIS, but then in the final scene they're looking the same way as the scene before and having that follow-up conversation two days later, lol. This type of wonky segue is par for the course for TV shows, but still, could have had that convo while they were leaving the village instead of making it look like they didn't talk about Ashildr's situation until they reached the TARDIS.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This felt like RTD.
Like, a LOT.
Like, a LOT.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
It didn't feel at all like RTD to me. This was all quintessential Moffat type shenanigans.
I can't think of anything RTD did that was remotely like this.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
If her character is used as much next season as this past season, she probably doesn't have to spend too much time doing GoT.
ZeroMaverick
Member
I loved it. Knew they would write Capaldi's previous appearance in. It was great.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
And if ever there was an opinion about this show I've ever expressed that lined up with yours in any way, I'm sure what hair I have left on my head would go white with shock.
The sort of deliberately, jovially, cheerfully cheesy proceedings that lilt ever so easily into overwrought melodrama is what I'm talking about. Not plotting or progression of plot, but more the interplay of the characters. Everything is heightened in a way that's putting emphasis less on the clever/analytical and more on the emotional. RTD era always felt to me like an elaborate exercise in having your cake and eating it too from a storytelling perspective, and that's what this episode felt like. Big broad dumb jokes firing off every minute or so, while simultaneously drowning in syrup and practically pulling on your nosehairs to try and get a tear to well up.
This episode did all that. It felt like RTD to me.
GodParticle
Member
Surprisingly pleased with that one. It looked awful from the preview. Interesting stuff with the GoT girl. I half expect her to somehow off the doc at the end of the season and then resurrect him haha
Agreed. Reminded me a little bit of Smith and Jones. The armored aliens even had a similar silhouette to a Judoon. And then there are the obvious and direct callbacks to fires of pompeii. The tone was very RTD too with slightly dumb looking bully aliens being beaten with the power of imagination.
Plot arc this season feels very RTD too. Just repeat one word all season, have that word show up in your season finale and then wiggle your fingers like you've done a bit of magic. "We said Bad Wolf all season long, mindfreak!"
In this case, my friends, it would seem the word is "Hybrid."
I'm not as convinced the Minister of War is anything to do with this season. I think the writer was just planting seeds for himself to grow into future scripts later. Moffat famously did that with River Song's dialog in Silence in the Library. Talked about the crash of the Byzantium at the very least.
Bobby, you are my hero.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Except I don't think that happened.
In the RTD episodes, we'd get to know these characters. We don't. Like with typical Moffat proceedings, the characters are all comic stereotypes meant to be laughed at. The jokes all felt like the typical Moffat garbage, with the Doctor being able to talk to babies, and the conclusion of the episode involving the Doctor mocking the alien general and then going off to give a speech about how great he was.
This was textbook Moffat at every turn.
RTD would have fleshed out these characters, killed off a few characters in emotional ways that made the viewer care, and he wouldn't have had the main guest character cheat death, nor would the story have been as slight as it was tonight.
I would love a return to RTD style storytelling, but this was not that. This was just a bunch of silliness.
Not really sure how I feel about this one. A running theme I'm noticing a bit lately is that we're getting less villains with clearly defined features.
With the Mire, we've got the ground troops, who are apparently great warriors. We've also got some other leader-type figure, who is disguising himself as Odin, for some reason? Why? They're here to turn warriors into chemical cocktails, but seemingly all they want is like, a dozen people? How many soldiers are there on the ship? We hear something about weapon forges, but all the soldiers seem to have weapons already?
And then at the eleventh hour there's something about "seeing through technology", and projecting a story through all the helmets? And the "great warriors" all then run away from a single enemy that isn't even actually attacking them? Aren't they all like, hopped up on adrenaline and testosterone?
I dunno. I feel like the real story here was Ashildr, and they could've told her story in a less messy way than they did. There's a great Eighth Doctor comic from the early 00s that deals with a similar idea; a character who is, by the Doctor's intervention, given the gift/curse of immortality. I feel maybe that story did a better job of it.
With the Mire, we've got the ground troops, who are apparently great warriors. We've also got some other leader-type figure, who is disguising himself as Odin, for some reason? Why? They're here to turn warriors into chemical cocktails, but seemingly all they want is like, a dozen people? How many soldiers are there on the ship? We hear something about weapon forges, but all the soldiers seem to have weapons already?
And then at the eleventh hour there's something about "seeing through technology", and projecting a story through all the helmets? And the "great warriors" all then run away from a single enemy that isn't even actually attacking them? Aren't they all like, hopped up on adrenaline and testosterone?
I dunno. I feel like the real story here was Ashildr, and they could've told her story in a less messy way than they did. There's a great Eighth Doctor comic from the early 00s that deals with a similar idea; a character who is, by the Doctor's intervention, given the gift/curse of immortality. I feel maybe that story did a better job of it.
I actually completely agree with Kuwabara on this one.
Not feeling it, especially after the first four really impressing me. I mean, it's still solid and Capaldi is still great fun, but the shift in tone was not handled very well and Maisie's character Shielder was incredibly annoying in my opinion especially when she stood up to the false Viking with the chance to take back her word but instead she doubles down and only later apologizes but never really takes any responsibility for her actions other than saying she's bad luck. Like, what? Sure she helps defeat them in the end, but only because the Doctor told her how to and not because she had any real plans to help her village out in the first place. She even says she expects them all to die. Character with great potential that I feel was incredibly muddled and inconsistent. Even if it is somewhat realistic, it makes her unlikeable to me.
Still liked it, especially the back half.
Beaniedude
Member
I certainly enjoyed that episode if only for the line, "I am the Doctor. I save people!"
Again enjoyed the Doctor talking to Clara about her being a wild child now, the whole Viking thing was alright. I laughed when the Doctor asked if anyone had used a sword in battle before and he catches Clara's eye.
Again enjoyed the Doctor talking to Clara about her being a wild child now, the whole Viking thing was alright. I laughed when the Doctor asked if anyone had used a sword in battle before and he catches Clara's eye.
I liked this episode, and indeed this series, because for better or worse, it's telling it's own stories. Its showing, not telling.
From Series 6-8, there was a feeling for me that it was attempting too much. Overarching stories and plots that made me as a viewer feel you were playing catch up and the writers were trying to be too clever, waving their finger at the audience. I love a complex story, I do not like convoluted stories that have brake neck paces.
For some of their faults, every episode including last night's was paced fantastically well and I was allowed to like or dislike the story on its own merits. It felt a competent whole. Capaldi did sterling work and Clara, who I can take or leave, actually felt like a proper companion in this story. It was weird - she's been 'there' for me since she debuted three years ago and only now the writers are finding their groove and letting her be a companion.
As such the biggest shame about the series is that the overreaching arc seems to be her foreshadowed death. Great
Also interestingly, I saw myself nodding at this. Shame on the people remarking RTD had nothing valuable to influence on others. His run had a lot of silliness but when he hit the emotional notes and even giving us characters to care about, he makes Moffat look like amateur hour. From Series 5 onwards I can count on one hand the characters that have made an impact outside the Doctor and companion, whereas 1-4 the incidental characters are far more memorable
From Series 6-8, there was a feeling for me that it was attempting too much. Overarching stories and plots that made me as a viewer feel you were playing catch up and the writers were trying to be too clever, waving their finger at the audience. I love a complex story, I do not like convoluted stories that have brake neck paces.
For some of their faults, every episode including last night's was paced fantastically well and I was allowed to like or dislike the story on its own merits. It felt a competent whole. Capaldi did sterling work and Clara, who I can take or leave, actually felt like a proper companion in this story. It was weird - she's been 'there' for me since she debuted three years ago and only now the writers are finding their groove and letting her be a companion.
As such the biggest shame about the series is that the overreaching arc seems to be her foreshadowed death. Great
Also interestingly, I saw myself nodding at this. Shame on the people remarking RTD had nothing valuable to influence on others. His run had a lot of silliness but when he hit the emotional notes and even giving us characters to care about, he makes Moffat look like amateur hour. From Series 5 onwards I can count on one hand the characters that have made an impact outside the Doctor and companion, whereas 1-4 the incidental characters are far more memorable
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I enjoyed this episode way more than I expected. I went into it thinking it would be in line with Robot of Sherwood from last year. Even outside the face reveal and Ashildr being brought back, the episode had its moments. The Doctor translating the baby's cries was a personal highlight for me.
Most of all, I'm glad Ashildr was her own thing and not the Doctor's daughter or the other theories that were thrown around. It would be cool to see her pop up in future episodes, a character who isn't just crossing paths via time travel but from living so long.
Also, I don't know if I think death is the overarching theme this season. It has come up in all the episodes, but I think "breaking the rules" is what keeps jumping out at me.
Most of all, I'm glad Ashildr was her own thing and not the Doctor's daughter or the other theories that were thrown around. It would be cool to see her pop up in future episodes, a character who isn't just crossing paths via time travel but from living so long.
Also, I don't know if I think death is the overarching theme this season. It has come up in all the episodes, but I think "breaking the rules" is what keeps jumping out at me.
nightmare-slain
Banned
not really sure of this episode. i'm gonna need to watch it again.
i think capaldi/jenna and maisie's acting was great. i absolutely love capaldi as the doctor. clara is more interesting. i think she's becoming too much like the doctor. ashildr is also an interesting character and can't wait to see where it goes. i would like to see maisie become a regular in doctor who, maybe even a companion, but it's not gonna happen. maybe when GOT ends.
i think capaldi/jenna and maisie's acting was great. i absolutely love capaldi as the doctor. clara is more interesting. i think she's becoming too much like the doctor. ashildr is also an interesting character and can't wait to see where it goes. i would like to see maisie become a regular in doctor who, maybe even a companion, but it's not gonna happen. maybe when GOT ends.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
"He wouldn't have had the main quest character cheat death"
Did you even watch any RTD Kuwu? The guy went to extensive, ridiculous lengths to keep certain characters alive, moreso than Moffat ever has.
RTD literally came up with why 12's face is Capaldi. He wrote that.
Exterminieren
Banned
This episode is growing on me like mad, I must be honest. It's not as immediately brilliant as Mummy on the Orient Express or Flatline was, but there's something about it that's really working on me.
I'd like to disagree with this "does it feel like RTD or Moffat?" argument entirely. There's not a lot of writers that I could confidently say this about after just three scripts (Moffat was probably the last one, actually), but it felt like a Mathieson episode- a Doctor teetering on the edge of depression at the things he has to say and do without ever shirking from the necessity, the capable yet remote Clara from Flatline, highly visual storytelling, quickly yet vividly sketched supporting characters, and a knack for a great, striking premise. This seems so resolutely of a piece with Mummy and Flatline that I'm actually struggling to see where Moffat contributed much- I suspect he had a hand in the face scene and the resurrection, but I'd say that much of the rest is pure Mathieson.
I particularly agree with what the AV Club's reviewer had to say about it- this was an episode that felt honest, and wore its heart on its sleeve in ways both good and bad. That's possibly where I can see the RTD comparisons, and I can't deny that after years of Moffat's slightly heightened take, it's awfully refreshing.
I'd like to disagree with this "does it feel like RTD or Moffat?" argument entirely. There's not a lot of writers that I could confidently say this about after just three scripts (Moffat was probably the last one, actually), but it felt like a Mathieson episode- a Doctor teetering on the edge of depression at the things he has to say and do without ever shirking from the necessity, the capable yet remote Clara from Flatline, highly visual storytelling, quickly yet vividly sketched supporting characters, and a knack for a great, striking premise. This seems so resolutely of a piece with Mummy and Flatline that I'm actually struggling to see where Moffat contributed much- I suspect he had a hand in the face scene and the resurrection, but I'd say that much of the rest is pure Mathieson.
I particularly agree with what the AV Club's reviewer had to say about it- this was an episode that felt honest, and wore its heart on its sleeve in ways both good and bad. That's possibly where I can see the RTD comparisons, and I can't deny that after years of Moffat's slightly heightened take, it's awfully refreshing.
Yeah, I was like...
wait, you have immortality in a patch... and you're just gonna rock with regenerations that run out after a set amount?
Exterminieren
Banned
The patches were part of the Mire's medical tech. He pulled them out of the helmet that Ashildr was wearing.
Also, as we see at the end, he's far from convinced that using the patches is at all a good idea.
paradox121
Member
I totally agree. To me at least Mathieson episodes feel fresh in the same way that Moffat used to back in the RTD era. That's not me saying he's the best writer on the show or that he's destined to become the new showrunner, it just purely feels like Mathieson has carved out his own identity. Every one of his episodes feels very stark and grounded and sombre. As you say, the Doctor comes across as almost downtrodden - he knows what he has to do, what he can and cant do, and its slowly killing him.
More than anything I feel like Mathieson has his own take on time travel. If this had been by RTD or 'of his era' the Doctor would have been talking about how he can't possibly change anything because this is a fixed point. If this had been by Moffat (entirely) or of his era the Doctor would have been messing around with time like its no-ones business. Mathieson lies somewhere in between - the Doctor can change things but certain actions will have huge consequences ie. Ashildr's immortality. More than anything I love that Mathieson always has the Doctor do the right thing, it just normally comes at a huge cost.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I know Mathieson said he wouldn't be show runner, but man he'd be my dream pick for after Moffat leaves.
It looks to me like episode 9, Sleep No More, is a found-footage style prequel to whatever threat The Doctor, Clara and Rigsy are facing in episode 10
Synopsis:
This is footage collected from a space rescue mission. If you value your life, your sanity, and the future of your species, DO NOT WATCH IT.
It's probably a "standalone" scary episode that ends with a tie-in to the next episode and a "To Be Continued", like the Doctor or Clara showing up on the tape.
Supernatural used a similar idea for an episode, which was a found-footage style episode of a girl becoming a monster, with Sam and Dean showing up at the end during the present, and then that story was continued in a future episode.
I sort of get what you mean, but I think saying this immediately after an episode where Odin appears in the form of the Teletubbies child is stretching it.
This reminds me... Whatever happened to Metal Hurlant: Origins, which he was supposed to run?
paradox121
Member
Thats fair, I guess its more reflected in the dialogue, or perhaps even just everything the Doctor/Clara say to one another. On its surface level, Mummy is just an episode about a monster killing people on a spaceship. But it shines because it has a certain tone to the dialogue. Which is equally the case here.
A lot of reviews I've read have pointed out the similarities between this and Robot of Sherwood, which is an equally dumb, bright, colourful romp on its surface, the difference being that strong, underlying theme this episode does so well.
Exterminieren
Banned
I wouldn't be surprised if he got a relatively significant BBC commission not too far in the future, as a sort of audition piece, much like Moffat got Jekyll, and Whithouse got The Game.
Up year-on-year, too, which is quite nice.
I wouldn't be too surprised if they dropped next week, what with The X Factor coming back, but I don't see us hitting The Witch's Familiar or Under The Lake levels again.
I actually agree with you. I think Mathieson's strength lies in taking ideas that sound ridiculous on the surface and making them extremely plausible. Funny thing is, that's also why I wasn't too hot on this episode. It just felt like "There are vikings and they are fighting space guys! This girl is important for some reason! Now we're doing the changing time thing!" (although admittedly that last one could have been due to a last minute rewrite)
Hot Coldman
Banned
Does Mathieson have another episode this series?
Exterminieren
Banned
No, he hasn't. The second half of this one is written by Catherine Tregenna.
To come, we've got...
Episode 6: The Woman Who Lived, by Catherine Tregenna
Episode 7: The Zygon Invasion, by Peter Harness
Episode 8: The Zygon Inversion, by Peter Harness
Episode 9: Sleep No More, by Mark Gatiss
Episode 10: Face The Raven, by Sarah Dollard
Episode 11: Heaven Sent, by Steven Moffat
Episode 12: Hell Bent, by Steven Moffat