Support NeoGAF

[KuwabaraTheMan]

"He wouldn't have had the main quest character cheat death"

Did you even watch any RTD Kuwu? The guy went to extensive, ridiculous lengths to keep certain characters alive, moreso than Moffat ever has.

What? That's not true at all.

Moffat has been the king of the death cheat. Moffat's the dude who wrote that whole bit about "sometimes the Doctor comes along and nobody dies" bit, and has written entire episodes where everyone cheats death. Rory died like seven times and kept coming back. He once killed off Jenny twice in the same episode.

RTD pulled off some fake deaths occasionally, but he didn't really actively undo deaths the way Moffat did. And when he killed off guest characters, they generally stayed dead. RTD gave us the death scenes of Jabe, and Lynda with a y, and Chantho, and so many other memorable supporting characters. It was very rare for him to actually have a character cheat death.

RTD literally came up with why 12's face is Capaldi. He wrote that.

I know that RTD came up with an idea, which may have been this. My understanding was that his idea was why Frobisher's face looked like Caecilus, and that after talking it over with him Moffat had kind of modified the idea to fit in with Capaldi.

But either way, it's dumb and fanwanky. RTD certainly could come up with some dumb and fanwanky stuff from time to time, but he usually had Phil Collinson to put his foot down and say "no", or he'd just think better of it. And while RTD might have come up with the idea, the actual scene itself wasn't written by him, and that was very clunky.

No, he hasn't. The second half of this one is written by Catherine Tregenna.

To come, we've got...

Episode 6: The Woman Who Lived, by Catherine Tregenna
Episode 7: The Zygon Invasion, by Peter Harness
Episode 8: The Zygon Inversion, by Peter Harness
Episode 9: Sleep No More, by Mark Gatiss
Episode 10: Face The Raven, by Sarah Dollard
Episode 11: Heaven Sent, by Steven Moffat
Episode 12: Hell Bent, by Steven Moffat

Well, that's actually a pretty decent set of writers, aside from Gatiss and Moffat. I hope that Harness can deliver a second high quality story.

 

[thefro]

Very entertaining and great episode, but I don't think I can rate it above Mathieson's two episodes from last season that were more focused and also tied into the season story arc. As good of a job as they did, a big part of this episode was a romp.

I actually agree with you. I think Mathieson's strength lies in taking ideas that sound ridiculous on the surface and making them extremely plausible. Funny thing is, that's also why I wasn't too hot on this episode. It just felt like "There are vikings and they are fighting space guys! This girl is important for some reason! Now we're doing the changing time thing!" (although admittedly that last one could have been due to a last minute rewrite)

It's a two-parter in a way, so I think we'll hear about Ashildr's character.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

It was very rare for him to actually have a character cheat death

Rose Tyler. To a simpering, ridiculous degree.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Urgh, easily the worst of the season for me anyway.

Just sick of the constant streaks of no one ever dying and there never being any stakes, the stuff at the very end is potentially interesting for the future but I'm sure it'll amount to bugger all through cop outs too.

And the reason for choosing the face was so damn weak!
"I'm sick of losing people" But you never do though!!
"I can't break the rules" But you always do, and everything is always fine!!

 

[8bit]

Pretty good overall.

But the Doctor carries 2 immortality pills on him and never used them before? And they can't have a simple timer on them?

Also good thing they ignored Capaldi's character in Torchwood.

I thought he said he took them from Mayans?

 

[Razmos]

I thought he said he took them from Mayans?

He took them from the Mire, the aliens in this episode.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Rose Tyler. To a simpering, ridiculous degree.

Well I was mostly talking about the guest characters, not the main cast.

Even still, Rose never died and then came back to life, something that practically every Moffat companion has done multiple times.

 

[8bit]

He took them from the Mire, the aliens in this episode.

Same thing, I thought he said Maia or Mayan, I didn't hear it as Mire but I see it was spelled that way in the radiotimes.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Same thing, I thought he said Maia or Mayan, I didn't hear it as Mire but I see it was spelled that way in the radiotimes.

Yeah, I was hearing Maya all throughout the episode, too.

 

[VegiHam]

I liked this episode, and indeed this series, because for better or worse, it's telling it's own stories. Its showing, not telling.

In regards to this episode, I disagree. At least when it came to Williams'' character. We didn't see her make up stories about the Vikings; we didn't see people treating her like she's weird and different; and we didn't see much of her blaming herself for things that weren't her fault. We're just told that she does all these things.

In fact, I feel like this episode should have started with her doing all that stuff, living in Viking town, and then some Vikings show up with the Doctor and a space suited Clara. Rather than staring with them. Give us more than three seconds to get to know these characters you want us to care about.

 

[BrokenFiction]

Yeah, I was hearing Maya all throughout the episode, too.

Bloody Scots.

 

[Ventilaator]

Rory died like seven times and kept coming back.

You seem to be forgetting when all of that culiminated in a Silent saying "Hey Rory you sure do die a lot"

That's why he died every other episode for two years straight. It was all leading up to that. It was all deliberate and Moffat is a genius.

 

[Razmos]

I really don't think people would have given a damn about Ashyldir if she wasn't played by Maisey Williams. And I'm probably guilty of that too.

She got like, 0 characterization in that episode at all, other than what she threw out for expositions sake. And the themes she did touch on, of being a storyteller, having dreams and struggling due to being a tomboy, were not explored at all.

She has the potential to be very interesting from this point on, but as far as this episode goes, she had no real presence, despite it being about her.

 

[Mutanthands]

Urgh, easily the worst of the season for me anyway.

Just sick of the constant streaks of no one ever dying and there never being any stakes, the stuff at the very end is potentially interesting for the future but I'm sure it'll amount to bugger all through cop outs too.

And the reason for choosing the face was so damn weak!
"I'm sick of losing people" But you never do though!!
"I can't break the rules" But you always do, and everything is always fine!!

I have to say, I don't quite understand this argument. When have a show that's around this long (50 years total, 10 years in the modern era), do want them to do the same thing over and over? Is the only way to tell a proper Dr. Who story is when people die? I seem to recall a few deaths in the last few episodes. How much is enough?

For all of the narative problems the show may have subjectively, this seems to be the least. If the show can't convey stakes without throwing a few bodies on the sacrificial pure, then that would be the real problem.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

It's super strange that we've gotten to a point in entertainment culture where people think we can't tell a story with stakes unless we kill off characters that we like.

It's actually the reason I fucking HATE The walking Dead.

 

[Red Arremer]

Uhh, didn't you watch the episode? Right in the first 10 minutes a dozen of Viking warriors get literally evaporated and squeezed into a vial to be a juice for some alien dude. Yes they are nameless extras, but saying "nobody is ever dying" is outright wrong.

 

[Poodlestrike]

It's super strange that we've gotten to a point in entertainment culture where people think we can't tell a story with stakes unless we kill off characters that we like.

It's actually the reason I fucking HATE The walking Dead.

I blame Game of Thrones.

 

[APZonerunner]

It's super strange that we've gotten to a point in entertainment culture where people think we can't tell a story with stakes unless we kill off characters that we like.

It's actually the reason I fucking HATE The walking Dead.

I don't think it's always necessary, obviously, but the RTD era was exceedingly good at building up really good guest star roles in a very short space of time then roasting them for maximum dramatic effect. It's one of the things he excelled at as a showrunner, and it's something Moffat himself admits is a shortfall of his; he struggles to do it, once he makes a good guest role he struggles to let go of it. He's written about this in DWM's Producer Notes a few times, in fact, and off the back of Series 5 promised to be more ruthless in future.

RTD was rubbish at doing this with his companions because he too got too attached, but he loved annihilating guest roles. I do generally think that Moffat's era is more reluctant to kill and further isn't as good at building up guest roles quickly in the first place - the previous two-parter was a lovely exception to the average for his run, as was, say, The God Complex, but those are the exceptions... whereas I'd say even poor RTD-era episodes tended to have one or two good stand-out, well-built guests. One that comes to mind, for instance, is The Lazarus Experiment - not a great episode, but it's amazing how much mileage is squeezed out of what is essentially two scenes for the character of Lazarus' wife; she's well written and played both - not to mention the time spent on Martha's extended family as incidentals in that episode. You don't get very much of that in Moffat's era at all.

It's not really a 'one is better' thing, because the flip side is Moffat spends less time on guest characters and more around diving into the Doctor himself, or more on overall arcs or trying to tie up stories more neatly than RTD ever did; they just choose to spend their 43 minutes differently in their scripts, and encourage their guest writers to do the same.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

I have to say, I don't quite understand this argument. When have a show that's around this long (50 years total, 10 years in the modern era), do want them to do the same thing over and over? Is the only way to tell a proper Dr. Who story is when people die? I seem to recall a few deaths in the last few episodes. How much is enough?

For all of the narative problems the show may have subjectively, this seems to be the least. If the show can't convey stakes without throwing a few bodies on the sacrificial pure, then that would be the real problem.

I'm not saying Doctor Who needs a huge bodycount or anything and start killing off people recklessly, I hate GoT for this reason actually.

The problem for me is there is just never any stakes in this show, cos of the constant deus ex machina.

Idk why it bugged me so much this episode but this episode just felt like a "straw breaking camel's back" thing; probably cos of after being teased about his face for so long just for it to be "I don't like people dying" AGAIN.
It's not the people not dying that bothers me, it's the people dying and coming back, and his moping around about it.
"I'm the Doctor I can do whatever I want and nothing bad will happen cos I'm the Doctor."

 

[JoeM86]

So, Davros mentioned the prophecy of the Doctor creating a hybrid of two great warrior races and assumed it was Daleks & Time Lords.

I think this is far more than a running theme, I think this is the prophecy...

 

[Red Arremer]

Somehow I get this feeling that this "Minister of War" that was namedropped in the underwater two-parter might be not-Arya in her far future. Grown up to be bitter after seeing so many people die around her.

 

[Mutanthands]

I'm not saying Doctor Who needs a huge bodycount or anything and start killing off people recklessly, I hate GoT for this reason actually.

The problem for me is there is just never any stakes in this show, cos of the constant deus ex machina.

Idk why it bugged me so much this episode but this episode just felt like a "straw breaking camel's back" thing; probably cos of after being teased about his face for so long just for it to be "I don't like people dying" AGAIN.
It's not the people not dying that bothers me, it's the people dying and coming back, and his moping around about it.
"I'm the Doctor I can do whatever I want and nothing bad will happen cos I'm the Doctor."

Well, I like to keep in mind that Dr. Who is very much a show about it's own history. Despite occasional retcons and oversights, it encourages us to keep the past Doctors in mind.

In the last 2000 years, the Doctor has had a lot of companions, a few who died on his watch. He's a magnet for danger and death around space and time. He's the primary nemesis of more than a few genocidal races that have killed trillions of beings, and he's helped destroy billions of them in return. It got so bad, he became something he hated (The War Doctor) because the death around him became too much. His previous regeneration spent hundreds of years on a planet under siege from above genocidal races, watching the people around him attacked and killed. Because of his presence.

It seems that a lot of 12's narrative conflict is dealing with his history of being surrounded by death. Any time the Doctor is able to cheat death and bring people back, it's the exception, not the rule.

The fault comes if the writing has not been able to properly convey that, and make the true stakes clear.

 

[hamchan]

Kylie Minogue dying in that Christmas special was pretty darn sad.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Somehow I get this feeling that this "Minister of War" that was namedropped in the underwater two-parter might be not-Arya in her far future. Grown up to be bitter after seeing so many people die around her.

I like it. Although it's also possible whatever her story is gets wrapped up next week, too.

But it seems like a decent place to go.

 

[Mariolee]

So, Davros mentioned the prophecy of the Doctor creating a hybrid of two great warrior races and assumed it was Daleks & Time Lords.

I think this is far more than a running theme, I think this is the prophecy...

Somehow I get this feeling that this "Minister of War" that was namedropped in the underwater two-parter might be not-Arya in her far future. Grown up to be bitter after seeing so many people die around her.

These two combined together make me excited for what this season has in store. The payoff could be huge if true.

 

[chefbags]

Personally loved the episode. Had a nuance and subtle emotional depth to the doctor. It felt just real without all the explanation of why.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

The fault comes if the writing has not been able to properly convey that, and make the true stakes clear.

See, I thought last night's episode did a pretty good job with that.

People complain about stakes not being high enough, but stakes are always high. Bar another immortal/time-lord companion, The Doctor's companions will leave him. They will die. Even if we don't see it on screen. They are temporary to him, he is the only constant.

 

[Mutanthands]

See, I thought last night's episode did a pretty good job with that.

People complain about stakes not being high enough, but stakes are always high. Bar another immortal/time-lord companion, The Doctor's companions will leave him. They will die. Even if we don't see it on screen. They are temporary to him, he is the only constant.

I agree, but I recognize that subjectively, not everyone feels that's the case. It's a reasonable criticism.

 

[acheron_xl]

First impression is, worst episode of the Capaldi era so far, by a pretty fair margin.

The speaking baby thing was not good.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

First impression is, worst episode of the Capaldi era so far, by a pretty fair margin.

The speaking baby thing was not good.

Deep Breath, The Forest Thingy, and Robots of Sherwood were all far worse than this. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

[acheron_xl]

Deep Breath, The Forest Thingy, and Robots of Sherwood were all far worse than this. And that's just off the top of my head.

There's a good version of Deep Breath waiting to be edited together. And I maintain that Robots is a decent bit of harmless fun.

I might change my mind later, but I just wasn't feeling this one at all. And the group of folks I watch with were just savaging it.

 

[Faith]

This episode was so bad that I skipped a lot of scenes and watched it only for 10 minutes.

First time I've ever done something like that, lol.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

There's a good version of Deep Breath waiting to be edited together. And I maintain that Robots is a decent bit of harmless fun.

I might change my mind later, but I just wasn't feeling this one at all.

Yeah but it's not the one the BBC put out. I'm sure many episodes are more entertaining with Clara DIY edited out, but that isn't the case, and thus we have 20 minutes of the only companion who's seen every single regeneration of the Doctor having a hissy fit because the cute-ish one is regenerating, in the biggest rehash of a RTD story he's arguably ever done.

 

[Real Hero]

This episode was so bad that I skipped a lot of scenes and watched it only for 10 minutes.

First time I've ever done something like that, lol.

How can you know the quality of something if you skip over most of it

 

[GulAtiCa]

That was an awesome episode!

 

[JoeM86]

How can you know the quality of something if you skip over most of it

I wonder this too. If you're skipping the scenes, how do you know which are good and which are bad? Skipping on a rewatch I may understand since you've seen it and may know things you dislike (though skipping scenes is ridiculous IMO), but on first viewing? Some of the best scenes don't seem actiony if you're skipping through, so you miss the nuance and the details.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

First impression is, worst episode of the Capaldi era so far, by a pretty fair margin.

The speaking baby thing was not good.

This episode was so bad that I skipped a lot of scenes and watched it only for 10 minutes.

First time I've ever done something like that, lol.

That was an awesome episode!

Yup, it's a Doctor Who thread.

 

[MrBadger]

I really enjoyed this one, but I still had a gut feeling people were going to hate it and it'd go down as one of the worst ones, like Sherwood which I also liked.

Interested in seeing where they take this "immortality" thing. Doctor Who has never had a character who died and was brought back to life as an immortal being so it'll be interesting to see where they go with this brand new never seen before concept.

 

[8bit]

 

[Exterminieren]

I adored the use of the baby talk in this episode. Only Doctor Who could turn a bit of wacky comedy like that and turn it into something lyrical and poetic.

 

[Veelk]

I always find criticizing Doctor Who to be a strange experience as it's not a show that plays by conventional rules. The whole 'talk baby' thing doesn't make sense, nor does eels being the strong enough to screw over an army of advanced aliens, but there are so many DW episodes we can agree are good that make as little sense. It's not a good metric to try and judge Who by, because doing it forces you to dismiss the show as a whole. It's always all about whether you fall in love with the characters or not, and I always thought that was up in the air on whether it happens or not. With Maisie's character, I'm....eh on it. It seems pretty clear they're setting her up as either a recurring character or even new companion once Clara gets the boot, but as of now, her character is standard "I'm a tomboy in a warrior culture and feel kinda out of place", so it'll be more interesting when we see her as she has watched the world around her change. And as far as the Doctor's dilemma goes, his resistance to change the course of history comes off a bit strange when that's his thing. He doesn't make ripples nor tidal waves, he moves entire oceans to his will and has regularly done so. His past incarnation rebooted the universe, for christ's sake. It's a bit too late to go "Oops, can't make too much of a fuss now."

Also, what is everyone's bead on Capaldi as the Doctor? I have some thoughts on him, but I want to hear what everyone else thinks first.

 

[DieH@rd]

I really liked this episode. Fun stuff all around and then great callback at the end. I knew Moffat will do it at some point.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

Fun stuff. Liked the episode more than I thought after reading some responses earlier today.

I adored the use of the baby talk in this episode. Only Doctor Who could turn a bit of wacky comedy like that and turn it into something lyrical and poetic.

Yep.
When Matt Smith was doing it, it just sounded like a stupid joke.
Capaldi does it, and I fucking believed he could understand that baby.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Also, what is everyone's bead on Capaldi as the Doctor? I have some thoughts on him, but I want to hear what everyone else thinks first.

I loved Capaldi as The Doctor when the show was exploring what exactly The Doctor was and who he was. He worked as an old man scarred by experience and fear. He didn't put on a facade or a happy face, he was simply The Doctor, working, doing what The Doctor does. And Capaldi believably brought both intelligence and intensity to that role.

Since the show bungled that arc in the first season without any real resolution or development, capaldi this season is struggling in a sort of halfway zone between being "the asshole doctor" and "old matt smith" with his wacky guitar playing and sunglasses and grandiose nature. Capaldi is a fantastic actor and nails it when the script allows, but 12 is a very conflicting character this current season and I'm left wondering if that will tighten up in the future, or maybe people considered 12's more alien nature uninviting and Moffat pushed for a friendlier Doctor.

 

[Spectromixer]

So.... are the sonic glasses gone now?

 

[Razmos]

The sonic glasses appear in the next time trailer.

...unless the next episode happens chronologically BEFORE this one, which is why the Doctor recognises Ashildyr. *mind blown*
Perhaps she never takes off the mask, and that's why the Doctor asks "who are you?". She knows him but he doesn't know her.

 

[paradox121]

The sonic glasses appear in the next time trailer.

...unless the next episode happens chronologically BEFORE this one, which is why the Doctor recognises Ashildyr. *mind blown*
Perhaps she never takes off the mask, and that's why the Doctor asks "who are you?". She knows him but he doesn't know her.

That would suck because, for me at least, the next episode lives or dies by how well it handles confronting the Doctor with what he did to Ashildr. I love when the Doctor breaks a character and is forced to face them again. Thats what makes Girl Who Waited so brilliant.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

The sonic glasses appear in the next time trailer.

...unless the next episode happens chronologically BEFORE this one, which is why the Doctor recognises Ashildyr. *mind blown*
Perhaps she never takes off the mask, and that's why the Doctor asks "who are you?". She knows him but he doesn't know her.

They're back, live with it.

 

[TheJoRu]

Was away so didn't see it until now. Mostly felt like a whole lot of nothing, unfortunately. The first couple of minutes were fine, then it got unbelievably messy for a long while. Maisie did well as expected, and the few scenes with her and Capaldi were among the best. But I think the one thing that fell apart for me, pacing aside, is that I did not find it particularly funny. Robot of Sherwood was funny; the Doctor/Robin-quips were hilarious, as were the interactions with the rest of the merry men; but this one barely got a chuckle out of me. When doing humour it's often treading a thin line between funny and laughable, and in terms of the villains and the scenes where they got defeated it was sadly the latter for me.

The ending was intriguing. The thing about choosing the face was a bit out-of-the-blue, but I guess made sense (without being particularly exciting). Ashildr now being immortal (I suppose a sort of Time Lord-human-hybrid, functionally) is interesting, but the payoff is yet to come so there's not much to be said yet.

Overall it just felt very sloppy and cobbled together. It's a few interesting concepts and ideas without much of a plot to pull it together, and set-ups that have not yet resulted in anything.

Though, to end on a positive note, that final shot was really cool and packed some gorgeous music. Based Murray Gold.

 

[Razmos]

They're back, live with it.

That would suck because, for me at least, the next episode lives or dies by how well it handles confronting the Doctor with what he did to Ashildr. I love when the Doctor breaks a character and is forced to face them again. Thats what makes Girl Who Waited so brilliant.

It doesn't mean he couldn't, the monster-of-the-week story might end pretty early and then the rest might be time catching up and the Doctor confronting her again maybe and facing up to what he did.