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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons

hey guys remember how davies, garnder and collinson delivered 14 episodes a year every year

hey remember how it damned near killed davies, and how davies didn't have a young family to think of, and how davies didn't have another one of the bbc's biggest hits to shepherd and write half the episodes for

We should never denigrate the sheer hard work that Davies, Gardner and Collinson did, but I do think we have the tendency to make more comparisons than are necessarily helpful sometimes.
 

Philippo

Member
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hey remember how it damned near killed davies, and how davies didn't have a young family to think of, and how davies didn't have another one of the bbc's biggest hits to shepherd and write half the episodes for

We should never denigrate the sheer hard work that Davies, Gardner and Collinson did, but I do think we have the tendency to make more comparisons than are necessarily helpful sometimes.

Don't forget the budget cut's or the shifting of the tv landscape with Iplayer et al all coming in as well...
 

Quick

Banned
Late impression: TheZygon Inversion is so much better, and makes The Zygon Invasion a little better (but still doesn't forgive the stupidity).

I was completely glued to the screen the entire time they were at the Black Archive, with Capaldi owning the entire thing. Less "I'm the Doctor, The Oncoming Storm, be afraid..." and more Rings of Akhaten monologue.

Very hard-hitting stuff.


Yep. That's a magazine cover alright.

(Had to copy the link to get it to work)
 

wetflame

Pizza Dog
Doctor Who is clearly taking a year off so that when Peter Capaldi regenerates into Jenna in the series finale there's a year for all the crazed reactions to settle down.
 

Philippo

Member
Is it possible to have a clean image of that cover or is it too early?

Doctor Who is clearly taking a year off so that when Peter Capaldi regenerates into Jenna in the series finale there's a year for all the crazed reactions to settle down.

I'd actually be relatively ok with that, plus the trainwreck would be hilarious.

Missy turning into Sexy Evil Clara would be better tho
 

Ophelion

Member
Doctor Who is clearly taking a year off so that when Peter Capaldi regenerates into Jenna in the series finale there's a year for all the crazed reactions to settle down.

I remember before the secret behind "The Impossible Girl" stuff was figured out, I had a crackpot fan theory about how Clara was a chameleon arched 12th Doctor/shards of the 12th Doctor in a method similar to The Watcher for the fifth. She sent herself back through time to make sure she came to exist. In that version Clara felt like a companion manufactured for the sole purpose of protecting and caring for the Doctor because she was a companion manufactured for the sole purpose of protecting and caring for the Doctor.

Ends with Jenna Coleman telling the 11th as he dies that it's fine because, "The moment has been prepared for." At which point, Clara embraces the regenerating Doctor, vanishing into the golden light and the Doctor wakes up with Clara's face.

Edit: Maybe the Doctor figures it out by the end ahead of Clara remembering who she is and tells her, "Run you clever girl and remember." As a nice full circle.

I never seriously thought it was the answer, it was just a bit of fun.
 
Ah - so no 2016 series might explain the whole BBC wanting more episodes rumour - they may have wanted some between the Christmas ones, a longer production run but they said no?
 

Boem

Member
hey remember how it damned near killed davies, and how davies didn't have a young family to think of, and how davies didn't have another one of the bbc's biggest hits to shepherd and write half the episodes for

We should never denigrate the sheer hard work that Davies, Gardner and Collinson did, but I do think we have the tendency to make more comparisons than are necessarily helpful sometimes.

Couldn't agree more.
 

ag-my001

Member
This was probably noted earlier and I missed it, but was there one of the alien helmets from the Viking episode sitting in the Black Archive booth?
 
hey remember how it damned near killed davies, and how davies didn't have a young family to think of, and how davies didn't have another one of the bbc's biggest hits to shepherd and write half the episodes for

We should never denigrate the sheer hard work that Davies, Gardner and Collinson did, but I do think we have the tendency to make more comparisons than are necessarily helpful sometimes.

In fairness, at the time they were producing 13x45 & 1x60 episodes of Doctor Who, 13x45 Torchwood, 12x30 episodes of Sarah Jane Adventures and 14x45 episodes of Doctor Who Confidential, so there was a lot more Doctor Who going around than I even said.

I respect the size and scope of a project like Sherlock, and I respect the sacrifices RTD and Gardner both in particular made for the show - and Moffat is indeed in a very different situation. However it's no secret that production has been a horrible mess since 2011 onwards (2010 went fine, which says to me Moffat isn't the inherent problem) and I think it absolutely deserves scrutiny. RTD did incredible things, but there's more to it than him simply working himself to death; and I think if you eliminated two of the four shows he was running simultaneously off his schedule he probably wouldn't have got as ill as he did, to be honest; by his own admission it was when SJA was added that things got on top of him.

It's not so much about the comparison; the comparison is just a shortcut, and admittedly I was being facetious in how I framed that post. What I mean is this: This is bullshit, the show deserves better, and they can do better. I believe that absolutely. They've consistently failed to sort it out for too many years on the trot, and I'm baffled as to why things have continued to remain such a mess and why the Smith and Capaldi eras have been such a revolving door production staff wise, which no doubt doesn't help. Any comparison to previous eras is ultimately irrelevant; the point is that the here and now could and should be better. And I say that as somebody who thinks a year off will do the show wonders! It's just I don't think the year off is coming about for that reason, it's coming about because things have broken down yet again.
 
Before I forget, the American-sounding patter by Doctor Who in introducing the Osgood Box war game is Capaldi's impersonation of Hughie Green.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughie_Green

Green was English but spent much of his early life in America as a child actor, so he had a John Barrowman-like accent (though sadly none of the latter's charm). His main career was as host of various television game shows on British television in the sixties and seventies. His catch phrases, "Make your mind up time" and "And I mean that most sincerely" (the latter at around 35'07") are included as part of Doctor Who's patter which starts at about 31'10" in the BBC iPlayer version of The Zygon Inversion which I'm currently watching. It's basically a carnival barker spiel, but the game show trappings spell Hughie Green.

The bits where Doctor Who speaks with his normal Scottish accent are, naturally, not part of the Hughie Green patter. They're Capaldi channelling Doc Brown (just kidding!)
 
Rewatxhed the human nature 2 parter today.


Still so damn good.

I believe it was originally written as a novel about the Sylvester McCoy version of Doctor Who (Seventh?) Has anybody here read the original? I imagine Ace would have been rather effective against those bloody scarecrows.

Two of the main cast in that two parter made their way into the HBO fantasy blockbuster Game of Thrones. Harry Lloyd (Baines) plays a displaced prince looking to get his crown back by selling his sister to the nearest Genghis Kahn analogue. Thomas Sangster (Latimer) plays essentially the same character he plays in Doctor Who, psychic powers and all.
 

Big Nikus

Member
I've got some theories that I haven't read anywhere yet so I'm gonna share them even if it seems a bit far-fetched. Possibly spoilers (well, in case I'm right, and I believe I am...). Sorry if there are some grammar errors, english is not my first language.

I think somebody mentioned it already, but I'm pretty sure Clara has been dead for some time. We share Clara's point of view, which is the present, but I think the Doctor is out of phase with her, and with us. I think he has lived some really difficult things and what we're seeing this season is the Doctor coming back to a time where he could still spend some time with Clara.

There is the dialog with Clara at the end of the Zygons Inversion:

- So, you must have thought I was dead for a while?
- Yeah.
- How was that?
- Longest month of my life.
- It could only have been five minutes!
- I'll be the judge of time.


A month ? I don't think he says that because he's been playing this game with the Zygons for longer than we'd think. Well I think he has, but that's not what he's refering to here.
There's also the line with Osgood :

- Never really met Clara. Pretty strong, yeah?
- She was amazing.
- No. Not was. Is.


I don't think the Doctor would ever speak about someone in the past tense if he wasn't 200% sure of what he's saying. Especially for Clara.
There have been many instances during this season where Clara talked about the fact that she would never stop traveling with him, that she wouldn't go anywhere. At first I thought it was to make us think « heh, that's sad, we already know she's leaving ». But I don't think it was only a foreshadowing irony. I need to re-watch some of these scenes but the Doctor doesn't seem happy to hear that. So at first I thought it was because he's never intended to travel forever with anyone (because bad stuff tends to happen, and he can get bored, etc.), so he was ready to break her heart someday. But I think it's his heart that is broken, he's already lost Clara but we haven't seen it yet.

Not convinced yet ? Well, bear with me a liitle more :) Something struck me earlier today, when I thought about the scene in which the Doctor plays his guitar, alone in the Tardis. It may be stupid but the first time I saw that scene, I thought about Eric Draven in The Crow. A guy, alone, playing a sad but powerful tune on his electric guitar. Though at first I had not realised why I felt sad during this scene, and then it became clear. He wasn't playing some random tune, he was playing Amazing Grace, a song that is mostly played at funerals ! It's the song for people that are in mourning.

Is there another detail suggesting that the Doctor is grieving, hidden in plain sight ? Well of course. I don't think Moffat would destroy the Sonic Screwdriver on a whim without a really thought out reason. Black sunglasses. They're not only for rock stars. People who are in mourning after the loss of a loved one also wear black sunglasses (for instance, at funerals). The Sonic Screwdriver will return once the Doctor has coped.

The Doctor grieves, he aches so much that he sometimes hide his eyes behind black sunglasses, so that everybody thinks he's just being goofy and is in a rock star phase. He's the Doctor, that's what he does. Still, I love that he plays guitar, Capaldi is brilliant, but I'm convinced there is something more to this. Of all songs, he chooses to play Amazing Grace, alone.
The way that he talks about Clara lately, there's something more to it. He made sure that Clara could be there after his speech because he says really nice things to her, as if he was trying to make up for something, to say things he wishes he had said before, when he still had the chance... But hey, he has a time machine so he may just be doing that right now.

Also, the next two-parter is named after Edgar Allan Poe's poem, The Raven. My all time favorite poem, and it just happens that it deals with a man grieving after a terrible loss, and torturing himself with the memories of the person deceased.
I'm genuinely scared of what will happen in the next episodes. I've always liked Clara. I'm just wondering what the Doctor will do about whatever's supposed to happen (and have happened already from his perspective, if my theory is correct). Will he act the way he did for Ashildr ?
In episode 5 or 6 he said :
- You're always talking about what you can and can't do, but you never tell me the rules.
- We're time travelers. We tread softly. It's okay to make ripples, but not tidal waves.


This season deals with the consequences of the Doctor's actions, and he chose his new face by remembering a guy in Pompei for whom he had broken the rules. He did so again with Ashildr, and I hope he'll find a way to do it again for Clara...
Either way, I think we're all focused on the ripples in front of us, so much that we're not seeing the gigantic tidal wave coming from behind.
I love how the different thematics have been treated this season, the authors have indeed treaded softly, there are a lot of hints in each episode, and I think after the end of the season we'll look at some scenes in these episodes in a totally new (and sad) way.

Of course I may be totally wrong, but I think my theories have some ground and it's not that far-fetched for this show. If I'm right, well it means that what the authors intended is playing out beautifully, it is some solid, clever, thoughtful and touching writing.

Also, why is it that nobody seems to understand what Osgood means when she says that it doesn't matter if she's human or zygon ? She says «I'll answer the day nobody cares about the answer ». Of course, it's like if I asked my neighbor « are you french or morrocan ? ». Why the fuck would someone ask this kind of question ? Tolerance and open-mindedness are some of the main themes of the episode, basically anything that can work against radicalisation. What Osgood is saying is that the day this question is not asked anymore, she will truly be accepted for the individual she is, but there's still a long way to go. Asking the question is sowing bad seeds, and even if the Doctor asks out of genuine scientific curiosity, he's given the same answer. I think it's this determination that makes him a fan of Osgood in the end. She's a symbol of peace and tolerance and nothing, not even The Doctor she adores, is able to weaken her stance on the subject.

But then again, my interpretation could be wrong.

Oh my, what a long ass post...
 
I've got some theories that I haven't read anywhere yet so I'm gonna share them even if it seems a bit far-fetched. Possibly spoilers

Your theories aren't spoilers. They're just theories. Even if you guessed right, it doesn't make your theories spoilers, because they're not actually based on knowledge of upcoming episodes. They're just guesses. No need to spoiler tag them.
 

Big Nikus

Member
Okay, I was just worried that in the case I'm totally on point, people would be upset to have read them. But yeah, I'll take off the tags :)
(especially since I may well be totally off the point)
 

hamchan

Member
Yeah you can unspoiler tag all of that. I really like the theories though and am hoping it is true. Will be one of the most subtle season arcs the show has had.
 
I think somebody mentioned it already, but I'm pretty sure Clara has been dead for some time.

I love your commentary as much as I could read it. Please repost it without those silly spoiler tags. You're speculating, so there is no need to conceal it. It's difficult to read large amounts of this concealed text. It's even more difficult to imagine how somebody discussing their ideas about a piece of fiction can be regarded as problematic.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I like these theories, especially that Clara is already gone and The Doctor is just doing a farewell tour with her. I especially enjoy the idea that since he is a time traveler, the viewer don't always follow him linearly. Normally we do, but the last couple of episodes have played around with that.
 
I believe it was originally written as a novel about the Sylvester McCoy version of Doctor Who (Seventh?) Has anybody here read the original? I imagine Ace would have been rather effective against those bloody scarecrows.

Two of the main cast in that two parter made their way into the HBO fantasy blockbuster Game of Thrones. Harry Lloyd (Baines) plays a displaced prince looking to get his crown back by selling his sister to the nearest Genghis Kahn analogue. Thomas Sangster (Latimer) plays essentially the same character he plays in Doctor Who, psychic powers and all.

Yeah I only started watching GOT recently and i knew I recognised those people from somewhere.


It is such a cool episode. Its both very Doctor Who while also feeling very unique.

And Blink is right after. I remember when I watched those 3 episodes back to back and was taken aback by the 1-2 punch of top quality stuff back to back.

Real great sci fi. If you pointed a gun at me and made me pick it or Silence in the Library I wouldnt know what to pick.


Silence in the Library is like a very Doctor Who story at its very best. Its a fairy tale turned on its head with time travel stuffs. Human Nature / family of blood is like a amazing non who sci fi story turned into a Doctor Who episode. It kind of shows it was originally a book that was probably targeting the sci fi literature crowd.
 
Yeah I only started watching GOT recently and i knew I recognised those people from somewhere.

Yeah, me too. When I heard that Game of Thrones won umpteen Emmy awards and people said a major cast member would be in Who, I took a quick look. Now I've got a four season boxed set and I'm looking forward to seeing more.
 
I want to go down on record here as saying I think the "Paul is Dead" stuff some people are reading into Clara this series is not persuasive. It's great, and I think it's vaguely plausible, but it doesn't really work for me. I think Clara is alive. It's likely that Doctor Who is making some extreme efforts to keep Clara alive, but whatever it may be I don't think it's been fully revealed yet.
 

Philippo

Member
Before I forget, the American-sounding patter by Doctor Who in introducing the Osgood Box war game is Capaldi's impersonation of Hughie Green.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughie_Green

Green was English but spent much of his early life in America as a child actor, so he had a John Barrowman-like accent (though sadly none of the latter's charm). His main career was as host of various television game shows on British television in the sixties and seventies. His catch phrases, "Make your mind up time" and "And I mean that most sincerely" (the latter at around 35'07") are included as part of Doctor Who's patter which starts at about 31'10" in the BBC iPlayer version of The Zygon Inversion which I'm currently watching. It's basically a carnival barker spiel, but the game show trappings spell Hughie Green.

The bits where Doctor Who speaks with his normal Scottish accent are, naturally, not part of the Hughie Green patter. They're Capaldi channelling Doc Brown (just kidding!)

Ooh, so he was in fact mimicking an American accent.
The way he called everyone sweetheart did sounded strange.
 

mclem

Member
I believe it was originally written as a novel about the Sylvester McCoy version of Doctor Who (Seventh?) Has anybody here read the original? I imagine Ace would have been rather effective against those bloody scarecrows.

My housemate recently got a job lot of Doctor Who novels off eBay and Human Nature's among them. I might pinch it for a read one of these days.

I'm sure there used to be a few ebooks on the BBC website for free, but I can't find them now. I think Human Nature was among them, too.


Edit: Ah-ha! Here's the archive of the page. I wonder if the books still exist somewhere out there.

Edit2: Going to an earlier snapshot has the covers archived, at least. Might be worth a poke around.
 

Dryk

Member
Two of the main cast in that two parter made their way into the HBO fantasy blockbuster Game of Thrones. Harry Lloyd (Baines) plays a displaced prince looking to get his crown back by selling his sister to the nearest Genghis Kahn analogue. Thomas Sangster (Latimer) plays essentially the same character he plays in Doctor Who, psychic powers and all.
Harry Lloyd showing up in Theory of Everything was weirder because he was basically playing Baines
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
So I decided to start watching Doctor Who on a whim over the weekend, and I'm up to episode 6 of the Christopher Eccleston season, "Daleks".

I know the Dalek design is been with the series since its earliest days, but it's bonkers how they can make something that's basically a wheelchair threatening.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
So I decided to start watching Doctor Who on a whim over the weekend, and I'm up to episode 6 of the Christopher Eccleston season, "Daleks".

I know the Dalek design is been with the series since its earliest days, but it's bonkers how they can make something that's basically a wheelchair threatening.

You're embarking on a pretty exciting adventure! If you keep at it, it ought to be really interesting seeing the series grow and change through the years.

Re: the Daleks, in addition to being a weirdly timeless design (beautifully updated for the new series), people have often cited the voice as being a huge part of their scariness. There's something about that shrill, manic voice that just works.
 
The Daleks are scary as hell. No other monster in Who makes me go "oh shit" like them.

And I mean, their little shells look goofy at first glance, but if you know how these things operate as a people, and that it's basically disgusting-looking racist mutants piloting an indestructible tank, you can't help but be terrified of them.
 
The Daleks are scary as hell. No other monster in Who makes me go "oh shit" like them.

And I mean, their little shells look goofy at first glance, but if you know how these things operate as a people, and that it's basically disgusting-looking racist mutants piloting an indestructible tank, you can't help but be terrified of them.

I wish I could find the Daleks intimidating. I honestly don't remember the last time I really enjoyed a Dalek story (Doomsday?) I don't think anything will every top the gas mask zombies as far as scare factor goes. Knowing you're about to undergo such a horrific transformation and there's nothing you can do but wait for the leather to engulf you. I had so many nightmares about those as a kid. Hell, I remember those Doctor Who cards they used to do. I had to get a friend to open them and check for any gas mask zombies first to take them out lol.
 

LeonSPBR

Member
You're embarking on a pretty exciting adventure! If you keep at it, it ought to be really interesting seeing the series grow and change through the years.

Re: the Daleks, in addition to being a weirdly timeless design (beautifully updated for the new series), people have often cited the voice as being a huge part of their scariness. There's something about that shrill, manic voice that just works.

Yup, the Daleks voices are something else. Love their design as well.
 
I wish I could find the Daleks intimidating. I honestly don't remember the last time I really enjoyed a Dalek story (Doomsday?) I don't think anything will every top the gas mask zombies as far as scare factor goes. Knowing you're about to undergo such a horrific transformation and there's nothing you can do but wait for the leather to engulf you. I had so many nightmares about those as a kid. Hell, I remember those Doctor Who cards they used to do. I had to get a friend to open them and check for any gas mask zombies first to take them out lol.

Yeah the gas mask zombies from Empty Child/ The Doctor Dances were amazingly terrifying. If Moffat is good at anything, it's creating absolutely fantastic monsters. He created those creatures, the Weeping Angels, and the Silence, all of which are really scary.

But - since you're mentioning Doomsday - man. That was such a good entrance. When the Daleks appeared in that episode, I nearly shat my pants.
 

Chariot

Member
I don't feel dread from the Daleks because they are so slowa dn ineffective. Like, you could just walk around one and never get hit because he only has one beam and is turning very slowly. In fact, since it's armor and not actual paet of the body, couldn't you just cling to the back of a Dalek and be safe as long as he is alone? I also read the comic where WWI bombers take out Daleks (I believe it was with 10th).

Weeping Angels are much scarier. To be fair I only watched New Who, so maybe I missed a lot of terror from the Dalek, but I have trouble taking them serious as informed biggest threat.
 

Protome

Member
I wish I could find the Daleks intimidating. I honestly don't remember the last time I really enjoyed a Dalek story (Doomsday?) I don't think anything will every top the gas mask zombies as far as scare factor goes. Knowing you're about to undergo such a horrific transformation and there's nothing you can do but wait for the leather to engulf you. I had so many nightmares about those as a kid. Hell, I remember those Doctor Who cards they used to do. I had to get a friend to open them and check for any gas mask zombies first to take them out lol.

The one redeeming part of the Sontaran Stratagem was David Tennant putting on the gas mask and going "Are you my mummy?"

The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances are two of the best episodes of Doctor Who.
 
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