Beaniedude
Member
I really liked that episode.
Maybe it was because I watched it with company. Made the experience more enjoyable.
Maybe it was because I watched it with company. Made the experience more enjoyable.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
- Start date
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Exterminieren
Banned
You're really, really watching the wrong show in that case. Cheese has been a staple part of the Who diet for decades.
Moff
Member
finally got to catch up with series 7 and really enjoying it so far. clara looks lovely, but I still prefer amy at that point. smith has improved a lot in my opinion.
the episodes were pretty good, too. lot of epic stuff in there and I dont think we have seen so much creepy stuff in any previous series, have we?
Its the first time I follow this show on gaf and I am really glad that every episode is hated as well as loved by the fans. thats totally what I expected, doctor who is just supposed to be cheesy and silly sometimes, and at other times its epic, brilliant and right in the feels, thats the magic of it, it doesnt work witthout the silly.
the episodes were pretty good, too. lot of epic stuff in there and I dont think we have seen so much creepy stuff in any previous series, have we?
Its the first time I follow this show on gaf and I am really glad that every episode is hated as well as loved by the fans. thats totally what I expected, doctor who is just supposed to be cheesy and silly sometimes, and at other times its epic, brilliant and right in the feels, thats the magic of it, it doesnt work witthout the silly.
grimshawish
Banned
Really good...end was dreadful mind but the Victorian plot and everything was awesome if a bit too much like Snowmen for my taste.
I feel like I'd prefer actual Victorian Clara over modern Clara. All seems sort of muddled. Moffat has introduced Victorian Clara and expected Modern Clara to be the same but JLC doesn't play it like that at all.
Very very Gatiss though which is nice as his efforts in 5/6 lacked his identity.
I feel like I'd prefer actual Victorian Clara over modern Clara. All seems sort of muddled. Moffat has introduced Victorian Clara and expected Modern Clara to be the same but JLC doesn't play it like that at all.
Very very Gatiss though which is nice as his efforts in 5/6 lacked his identity.
Exterminieren
Banned
Current series 7 rankings:
The Crimson Horror
Asylum of the Daleks
The Bells of Saint John
The Power of Three
The Snowmen
Journey To The Centre of The TARDIS
Cold War
The Angels Take Manhattan
The Rings of Akhaten
Hide
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
A Town Called Mercy
I'm not seeing a crisis, personally.
Also, Clara > Amy. Amy remains the absolute worst NuWho companion, and more often than not the character actually damages the episode she's in. Asylum of the Daleks comes readily to mind. Fortunately she's connected to Rory, NuWho's best companion.
The Crimson Horror
Asylum of the Daleks
The Bells of Saint John
The Power of Three
The Snowmen
Journey To The Centre of The TARDIS
Cold War
The Angels Take Manhattan
The Rings of Akhaten
Hide
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
A Town Called Mercy
I'm not seeing a crisis, personally.
Also, Clara > Amy. Amy remains the absolute worst NuWho companion, and more often than not the character actually damages the episode she's in. Asylum of the Daleks comes readily to mind. Fortunately she's connected to Rory, NuWho's best companion.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Exterminieren, you forgot about The Snowmen.
infiniteloop
Member
I like this season a lot, my 3rd favorite after 5 and 1.
Exterminieren
Banned
A slightly separate thing, the Christmas special, but I'd probably slot it in behind The Power Of Three.
But yeah, you guys confuse me. Shitting on the glorious slice of League of Gentlemen grotesquery that we got yesterday while going crazy for the muddled and confused Hide. Madness.
infiniteloop
Member
I'm surprised Gatiss didn't play the coroner as Hillary Briss.
Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS ratings were 6.50m :/
Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS ratings were 6.50m :/
grimshawish
Banned
My order would be:
Top tier:
Asylum of the Daleks
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
The Angels Take Manhattan
The Snowmen
The Rings of Akhaten
The Crimson Horror
Good Tier:
Cold War
Journey To The Centre of The TARDIS
Hide
The Bells of Saint John
A Town Called Mercy
Bad Tier:
The Power of Three
Overall this has been one of my favourite series. But am not a huge fan of Modern Clara.
Thing to remember with ratings, and the BBC would do well with this too, Who gets almost something like 50% of its ratings on record.
So if people are not watching Live; then all the shows throughout the night are competing for overnight recordings. Who is up against The Voice, BGT and everything else across the night.
6.5M is a very healthy number. Its just nearly all of Smith has been so much around 7M.
I do think the ridiculous obsession with ratings (despite being some of the shows strongest years ratings wise) over Series 5/6 mean people are looking and saying "See, told you it was losing its appeal!"
Truth is Amy/Rory were the longest serving companions, were hugely integral to Smith's Doctor, and were very popular. I don't think Clara has really created any bond, which is part of the plot - but its a really questionable decision.
So, the most competition the show has ever had outside of Christmas, the loss of two companions who were on the show for THREE YEARS (they were a massive part of the Smith era, I always find it odd how people never acknowledge this - I worried after Part A that losing the 'trio' of River/Amy/Rory might affect Smith as his Doctor wasn't strong by himself, but was really improved by having people to bounce off.
Its why Snowmen is so fucking good. You have this new cast for him to bounce off and a new companion whose so fun.
I've missed Amy and Rory in the last few episodes. It helped that KG/AD were fucking great actors. JLC? Well shes good but shes kind of monotone for me.
Hopefully once all the plot is dealt with we can actually get some growth in Clara and The Doctor's relationship. Atm they can't have growth because the plot means she has to be 'mysterious'.
Top tier:
Asylum of the Daleks
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
The Angels Take Manhattan
The Snowmen
The Rings of Akhaten
The Crimson Horror
Good Tier:
Cold War
Journey To The Centre of The TARDIS
Hide
The Bells of Saint John
A Town Called Mercy
Bad Tier:
The Power of Three
Overall this has been one of my favourite series. But am not a huge fan of Modern Clara.
Thing to remember with ratings, and the BBC would do well with this too, Who gets almost something like 50% of its ratings on record.
So if people are not watching Live; then all the shows throughout the night are competing for overnight recordings. Who is up against The Voice, BGT and everything else across the night.
6.5M is a very healthy number. Its just nearly all of Smith has been so much around 7M.
I do think the ridiculous obsession with ratings (despite being some of the shows strongest years ratings wise) over Series 5/6 mean people are looking and saying "See, told you it was losing its appeal!"
Truth is Amy/Rory were the longest serving companions, were hugely integral to Smith's Doctor, and were very popular. I don't think Clara has really created any bond, which is part of the plot - but its a really questionable decision.
So, the most competition the show has ever had outside of Christmas, the loss of two companions who were on the show for THREE YEARS (they were a massive part of the Smith era, I always find it odd how people never acknowledge this - I worried after Part A that losing the 'trio' of River/Amy/Rory might affect Smith as his Doctor wasn't strong by himself, but was really improved by having people to bounce off.
Its why Snowmen is so fucking good. You have this new cast for him to bounce off and a new companion whose so fun.
I've missed Amy and Rory in the last few episodes. It helped that KG/AD were fucking great actors. JLC? Well shes good but shes kind of monotone for me.
Hopefully once all the plot is dealt with we can actually get some growth in Clara and The Doctor's relationship. Atm they can't have growth because the plot means she has to be 'mysterious'.
Exterminieren
Banned
Yeah, panicking about the ratings is rather pointless. This series was rating exceptionally well until Hide, and now its kinda slumped a bit. This is all normal behaviour.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
More concrete criticism:
Strax though, was pretty damn funny. I especially loved the horse comment and him running down the corridor firing at the puny humans.
Updated my companion rankings:
1. Rory
2. Amy and Rory
3. Donna
4. Amy
5. Clara
6. Rose
7. Martha
- (Excluding Strax' bits) The episode was a complete bore up until the doctor showed up - I honestly think they would have been better off to just follow the doctor's story (albeit condensed).
- These pre-title introductions are starting to get awfully predictable. EVERY SINGLE TIME, the doctor appears before we get the warp hole animation.
- Laughable villian (both of them).
- Boring plan.
- Boring detective work by our lizard-sherlock and lesbian-holmes - jesus christ they were unbearable to watch!
- Clara was, and I hate to say this, really boring - really flat.
- Kids out of nowhere with the most stupidest of plots.
Strax though, was pretty damn funny. I especially loved the horse comment and him running down the corridor firing at the puny humans.
Updated my companion rankings:
1. Rory
2. Amy and Rory
3. Donna
4. Amy
5. Clara
6. Rose
7. Martha
I don't know about this season.
The main plot seems inexistant, and the Clara stuff has not been worked on nearly enough to make it interesting..
I keep forgetting who is the bad guy we saw, like, two times.
And even though she is beautiful I have, so far, been underwhelmed by Clara.
The main plot seems inexistant, and the Clara stuff has not been worked on nearly enough to make it interesting..
I keep forgetting who is the bad guy we saw, like, two times.
And even though she is beautiful I have, so far, been underwhelmed by Clara.
grimshawish
Banned
*Ahem* Cause I like to cheat:
1. Amy and Rory
2. Amy
3. Rory
4. Series 1 Rose
5. Donna
5. Clara
6. Series 2/4 Rose
7. Martha
Clara may drop further, she'd be bottom if Victorian Clara didn't exist.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
No I get that-but I feel like there's been too much than normal lately. My favorite episodes in the series are the relatively non-cheesy ones: Doctors Wife, Girl in The Fireplace, The Impossible Astronaut....
Maybe the word I'm looking for is "corny" and not "cheesy"
Here is the correct list.
Top Tier
Asylum of the Daleks
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
The Angels Take Manhattan (not perfect but I enjoy it)
Hide
Journey To The Centre of The TARDIS
Good Tier/"Ok"
A Town Called Mercy
The Power of Three
The Snowmen
The Bells of Saint John
Cold War
Bad Tier:
The Rings of Akhaten
The Crimson Horror
Was a bit confused by the plot with the rocket, then I remembered a throw-away line about the old lady being a chemist and mechanical engineer. Would have been extremely rare in those days, but whatever.
I'm more hoping that the pictures at the end lead to a Doctor/Clara confrontation, perhaps with a throwback to the reset(?) in Journey. He might just say they must end up visiting London later on, but if it sparks a memory, then who knows. Could do nicely to tie into the finale and 50th.
I'm more hoping that the pictures at the end lead to a Doctor/Clara confrontation, perhaps with a throwback to the reset(?) in Journey. He might just say they must end up visiting London later on, but if it sparks a memory, then who knows. Could do nicely to tie into the finale and 50th.
APZonerunner
Member
Ratings will be fine, I think, in the end. I reckon this does bear out my theory about why this series has rated so high, though - the only series to come properly close to Series 4 - because it was largely on in the cold months. 7a was on during the Autumn back end of 2012, and 7b began when it was still pissing it down with rain and even snowing(!) in parts of Britain. We've got glorious sun now, a lovely spring, and ratings have slumped. Kids are outside playing. 1/2/3/5 all had similar slumps, broadcast at a similar time. 4 was largely immune for some reason - I think largely because they had the right 'tentpoles' throughout - series opener, a big historical epic (and the BBC even made that 'Pompeii Weekend' broadcasting documentaries and such), return of an old monster, an episode with an 'exciting' title in the middle (The Doctor's Daughter), a very different episode tonally (Unicorn) and then a ramp into the biggest finale they'd ever done; that series was really well marketed and constructed to maintain momentum.
All that said, this year isn't really a drastic change from others - it's down a bit from the high of 4, but is generally about the same. If you add on Christmas Specials Voyage would boost Series 4 significantly above the others even more, but that episode was insanity, ratings-wise:
As far as Clara goes, as I said last page - She's paper thin! She's sassy and fit as fuck, but that's it. There's nothing to her at all so far. It's a shame. Jenna is wasted.
I can't say I disagree with your reasoning this season (though bad reset ending aside I think Power of Three is good) but the thing is the non-cheesy stuff is often the stuff least friendly to Who's main, core target audience of kids/families. They want the spectacle and so on, and don't mind the cheese so much. I like to think the 'harder' sci-fi episodes (or rather, the less cheesy episodes) like Human Nature, or the Doctor's Wife, or Girl in the Fireplace (three of my all-time favourites) are sort of the 'thoughtful' highs of the series, but they do need to be tempered by more slashy lows like this week. There's a reason why in the Audience Appreciation Index 'Voyage of the Damned' and 'Journey's End' are the highest-scoring episodes since the reboot - Who has a core audience who want to do a lot less thinking and more going 'oooh' and 'ahhh' - I think one of the strengths of the show is that it can do both. Those aren't flukes, either - the higher ratings a show gets the more difficult it is for it to get a high AI (more people to please - so daytime quiz shows that get like 100,000 viewers often top the charts with scores nearing 90) and those two are also the highest rated episodes, too.
My point is... the cheese, the cringe-worthy bits, episodes like this week's - they have a place in the fabric of the show. I think some audiences are less tolerating of them than others, though - and that sort of links back into the BBC choosing to market Doctor Who as a sci-fi show, as a British Star Trek abroad rather than a family adventure show.
They really need to sort out the times, people should be able to turn the TV on a Saturday and know Doctor Who is on at that time for however many weeks, not jump around constantly because of other shows that they know would have been on months in advance at that time.
Hopefully next year after the 50th and Christmas episode we can go back to just one straight run of episodes. And god damn The Voice sucks, watching "celebrities" beg for someone to choose them, blech, goes right through me, and this is what the BBC is spending money on and moving other shows around for so they can go against ITV, the whole thing is ridiculous.
Hopefully next year after the 50th and Christmas episode we can go back to just one straight run of episodes. And god damn The Voice sucks, watching "celebrities" beg for someone to choose them, blech, goes right through me, and this is what the BBC is spending money on and moving other shows around for so they can go against ITV, the whole thing is ridiculous.
Exterminieren
Banned
I dunno. All three episodes you mention have cheesiness/corniness/whateverness right at their core, alongside the more serious aspects. The opening of The Doctor's Wife is downright whimsical, probably the most successful version of Moffat's Who as Fairy Tale that we've seen. I think that Gaiman would be the first to agree that there's a certain level of cheese present in most of his writing. The Girl in the Fireplace is drenched with cheesiness; Mickey rolling about the spaceship, the Doctor pretending to be drunk, the horse on the spaceship. The Impossible Astronaut has all the business in Nixon's office, and Nixon being dragged across the country in the TARDIS to solve all the Doctor's problems. These are obviously episodes with different focuses to the one that The Crimson Horror has, but they are so far from being po-faced and entirely lacking in cheese. Obviously there's such a thing too much cheese (oww, Fear Her, please stop) but extracting the cheese from Doctor Who gives us godawful wrecks like Resurrection of the Daleks, or Torchwood: Miracle Day.
I debate how "cheesy" The Crimson Horror is, anyway. With the exception of the fainting guy and the TomTom gag, the majority of the episode's humour came from wit and wordplay rather than just physical comedy. For my tastes, at least, some of The Crimson Horror's imagery (the leech in Ms Gillyflower's bosom, the Victorian couples preserved under glass, the floating corpses) are a far darker proposition than we've seen in the series for years. It really would not take a lot of tweaking to repurpose this episode as some manner of crossover with The League of Gentlemen, whereas most of this year's other episodes have been far more straightforward and far less dark, with the exceptions of certain bits of JTTCOTT and Ms. Kizmet's fate in TBOSJ.
Actually, there's more of a similarity between the use of cheese in The Girl in the Fireplace and The Crimson Horror than I first realised; both episodes use it to emphasise their more offbeat moments- the heart wired to the ship, the robots and their plans for Madame Du Pompadour vs. the leech and Ms. Gillyflower's really nasty eugenics policies.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Hide was pretty much completely lacking in cheese, except for maybe the last 30 seconds, for what it's worth.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
You don't think The Doctor's Wife was corny? Even with the random ass victorian stylings because hey, its a sci-fi show and here's something alien in victorian style! So quirky! Even with the fan-serving banter between the Doctor and the TARDIS?
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Nah-nothing about that felt corny to me at all. Corny to me is a rubbery looking worm named Mr. Sweet latched on to some old broad's tit.
Quirky I like. Not corny.
Exterminieren
Banned
Hot Coldman
Banned
And I thought Hide was rubbish, so that fits.
You're wrong, which also fits
Clara's actress is so lovely and charming that I'm willing to forgive her modern version being fairly nonexistent as a character (whereas while I liked Amy's actress, she became very dull from somewhere in Season 6 to the end of her run). However, I think they made a mistake not keeping the Victorian one, she seemed more dynamic and engaging.
grimshawish
Banned
The problem is that Hide's cheese is extremely smelly.
APZonerunner
Member
Yes, yes, yes, YES. 100% agreed. This is a show where, really, the greatest nemesis of the protagonist is - really, let's be honest - a bit shit and ridiculous. But they make it work.
Aside: I couldn't help thinking throughout how much Gatiss would probably adore Bioshock if it was ever thrust under his nose (and likely played for him) - Sweetville had these very Bioshockish undertones rippling through them, except in Victorian England, of course.
Exterminieren
Banned
Yes, of course, that's the finest example of Who cheese being to the show's benefit. The Daleks are dustbins with egg whisks and toilet plungers... and they're amongst the most beloved icons of British pop culture. Very Doctor Who.
Ooh, now that's a very good shout.
Captain_Spanky
Member
That was my favorite episode of the run so far. Loved the campy b-movie horror of it all, and Strax!
grimshawish
Banned
I like this. You are right they have strong similarities. A victorian Bioshock would be awesome.
APZonerunner
Member
It's funny, because coming out of Infinite all I could think about was how somebody needed to send a copy to Moffat's son (who is an avid gamer and does let's plays and things on YouTube) and make him play it in front of his dad because of the directions that game goes in. It's very him. And now we get this!
EleventhDoctor
Banned
Incendiary
Banned
Now that you say that, I can't help but think how cool it would be if we got a proper two-parter with build-up where the Doctor & a companion inflitrated an inclusive city like Columbia or Rapture.
User 100115
Banned
I am really hoping that Clara's non-personality is what I picked up on early on in this half, that there is something seriously wrong with the character, and not bad writing/acting.
Hot Coldman
Banned
APZonerunner x Exterminieren OTP
their insane love of Gridlock will bind them forever more
their insane love of Gridlock will bind them forever more
EleventhDoctor
Banned
If you'll please turn your hymnals to page 156.
They really messed up Clara's development so far. It's like the opposite of Amy where we knew nearly every facet of her life since the Doctor was such a huge influence on it, from her being a child to death. There's nothing to Clara so far other than sassiness and the mystery. Oh, and I guess she looks after some kids and has memories about her parents. And then.... Dunno.
Also I sure hope they bring back one full, not split up season, with two-parters.
Also I sure hope they bring back one full, not split up season, with two-parters.
I am happy that someone else feels this way. Was almost chalking it up to Coleman being a mediocre actress. Everything seems emotionless and its either her smug smile or furrowed eyebrows.
If Neil Gaiman's latest episode is as good as The Doctor's Wife episode, I'd say we have to start a drive to get him to run the show
A few years ago people probably said the same thing about Moffat in regards to "Empty Child/Dances", "The Girl in the Fireplace", "Blink" and "Library/Forest".
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I really like Moffat's run, except when he has to resolve the plot(s)!
In my opinion, Doctor's Wife is better than those... maybe not, but remember, Gaiman actually has experience in running and being the head of things (Sandman). Moffat's only done smaller, standalone shows before.
APZonerunner
Member
Gaiman is sadly almost certainly a no go, as he's too busy/famous to move to Cardiff and be locked down in that way, as Who show runner is a full-time job. Gaiman is always moving about, convention to convention, and working on 20 different projects, and I doubt he'd give it up. I hope he continues to contribute an episode a year even after Moffat goes, as he's bloody brilliant.
Gatiss, Whithouse, Chibnall. They're the three choices, it seems. Pick your poison!
Gatiss, Whithouse, Chibnall. They're the three choices, it seems. Pick your poison!
true, true. I guess I just want him to write a lot more episodes, they're such bold and fresh takes on the formula that it really feels amazing.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think it's gonna be Whithouse.
obin_gam
Member
Wasnt he just promoted to executive producer? Seems like a shoe in for next showrunner.
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