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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life

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Pretty average episode. Since this series has been so awful though, that means it's one of the better ones.

I think the actual episodes in themselves have been fine, it's just something about The Doctor/Clara relationship that doesn't sit right for me... maybe it'll be better once they have the big reveal, it just seems so off.

In the prequel they talk about how awesome the other one is, but it's not what I'm seeing on screen at all.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Alright episode, not great, not terrible. I enjoyed it for what it was. But something does bug me: do we have any good explanation for why the galaxy-wide race known as Cybermen is the ones from the parallel universe? I mean, the ones in Closing Time didn't have the logo on the chest, but these ones do?
 
Alright episode, not great, not terrible. I enjoyed it for what it was. But something does bug me: do we have any good explanation for why the galaxy-wide race known as Cybermen is the ones from the parallel universe? I mean, the ones in Closing Time didn't have the logo on the chest, but these ones do?

Dr-Who-Nightmare-in-Silver-1880065.jpg


They did?
 
The thing that makes me laugh about new Who is that every classic enemy is the same.

"There are no X left. They all died in the Time War/Y/Z."
5 minutes later....
"Omg, it's X. How the fudge????"
"Yeah, there were a couple of us left. Lol soz lad."

Episode progresses. All of X are vanquished by the Doctor.

"Well that about wraps things up here!"
#shot of one surviving X skulking away right at the end#.

They need a new way of reintroducing future ones.
 
Alright episode, not great, not terrible. I enjoyed it for what it was. But something does bug me: do we have any good explanation for why the galaxy-wide race known as Cybermen is the ones from the parallel universe? I mean, the ones in Closing Time didn't have the logo on the chest, but these ones do?

Ummm, hard to say. They've been incredibly inconsistent about that. But I think it's safe to assume that the Cybermen from Pete's World probably converged with the Cybermen from Mondas- the Pete's World variant seemed a hell of a lot more advanced in its design (or at least in its combat potential), but they never had things like Cybermats either.
 
I had been looking forward to this episode ever since I heard about it. Neil Gaiman returning to the show, and writing the Cybermen (a race I know he has great love for). What could go wrong?

Well, a lot, apparently. Despite some good ideas, there was a lot of really dumb stuff in this episode. Especially the Doctor/Cyber Planner scenes of him talking to himself, which just came across as silly. I also didn't like how they just blew the planet up at the end? Okay, the Doctor did technically blow a planet up before, but in that case he was really just giving Davros enough rope to hang himself with. It felt very wrong to me to have the Doctor and Clara spend the whole episode reacting with horror to the idea of the planet being blown up as a possibility, and then turning around and doing it.

There was no good way out of that situation, but the obvious solution would be to not have an army of three million Cybermen to begin with. I think the episode was more interesting when you had a handful of Cybermen clinging to survival (which is really where the Cybermen shine), and once you have a massive army, it ceases to be interesting. In many ways, this episode feels like the history of the Cybermen in miniature. They start out interesting, you have some space zombies clinging to survival, lurking in the shadows, and some interesting implications as far as the human characters go and the technological implications of the Cybermen, and by the end of the episode they've become a mindless army of boring. Also, like many other Cybermen stories, far too many characters, including the Cybermen themselves, are acting illogically.

On top of that, I feel like there was really too much going on. There were too many characters and too many different plot elements for 45 minutes. While some episodes from this run have felt stretched out (last week's episode and Hide both being chief offenders), this episode felt too crammed together with different characters and story hooks that didn't really amount to much of anything.

I also didn't exactly love the 'Emperor of a thousand galaxies' being played for a bit of comic relief, an implication of feeling more sorry for whoever authorizes the use of weapons of mass destruction rather than their victims, and ending the episode with the whole 'oh, the Emperor jokes around about how he can execute people for any reason, isn't that hilarious' hijinks, but that's neither here nor there.

All of that said, I did enjoy several parts of this episode, although I feel like in typing out this stream of consciousness reaction I've convinced myself that I liked it less than I did while initially watching it. I think the script definitely needed at least one further draft to cut down on some of the fat and focus the ideas more (and maybe a better director could have helped realize the ambition more).

The idea of playing chess against a Cyberman was cool, and the image of the partially converted Doctor was great, but there was just too much surrounding material that wasn't particularly engaging. The idea of bringing the kids along was neat, but the story didn't really do much with them. The theme park planet was an interesting idea, but it's pretty marginalized in the end. This story feels like Daleks in Manhattan in a way to me, in that it's a story that really should have been great, but it just feels undercooked. I still like Gaiman as a writer, and I hope he does write for the show again, but I also hope he doesn't do something like this again.
 

bengraven

Member
So I have five episodes now backlogged and I just watched "Hide".

LTTP, but holy shit this is one of the best episodes of Nu Who. Dialogue was perfect.
 
Hide was actually pretty great. After the next episode I think I'm going to do a big Who rewatch. Might make a rewatch thread some time closer to the 50th. Cherry pick the best from old who and CE-MS era.
 
Ummm, hard to say. They've been incredibly inconsistent about that. But I think it's safe to assume that the Cybermen from Pete's World probably converged with the Cybermen from Mondas- the Pete's World variant seemed a hell of a lot more advanced in its design (or at least in its combat potential), but they never had things like Cybermats either.

Think Gaiman alluded to just that in an interview.
 

AngryMoth

Member
Another ok episode I thought. My problem with this season is they've all been ok episodes and I don't really watch doctor who for the ok episodes. Usually I find it easy to look past the show's many, many issues because it's so brimming with charm and imagination and they do occasionally come up with genuinely brilliant episodes which make me glad I tune in every week. But when there's a long run of mediocre like this it becomes much harder to ignore bad writing, bad acting, low production values etc.

My biggest problem with this season is Clara. They've given her mannerisms but no charcter. The only thing about her that's remotely interesting is the mystery and that became boring quickly because they haven't progressed it at all since it was introduced. I do need some elements of serialisation to keep me enthused about the show and this season has really failed to deliver on that front.

And unfortunately my expectations for the finale aren't great either. It was an incredibly dumb decision to build up to revealing the Doctor's name because it's impossible to provide an answer worthy of the decades of mystery so they obviously aren't going to and it's just going to be a disappointing tease where someone whispers it, if that. I at least hope they can come up with a satisfying resolution to Clara's mystery and maybe actually give her some charcter development.

Sorry for being so negative, this is what happens when I don't get my fix of great doctor who eps
 
I actually like the super speed of the new Cybermen. It's one thing from the episode I enjoyed if only because it makes them a bit more of an actual foe.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
Think Gaiman alluded to just that in an interview.
This is what he said:

"For me the absolute joy of bringing back the Cybermen was coming up with a weird rationalisation: in the Tom Baker universe the Cybermen pretty much died out. They were incredibly unsuccessful and clunky. And then you get the Cybus Cybermen. My theory is the Cybus Cybermen were sent to Victorian days and zapped off into time and space at the end of “The Next Doctor”. They met a bunch of the Mondasian/Telosian Cybermen, and there was some cross-breeding and interchange of technology, which is why you then get the ones that look like, but actually aren’t, the Cybus Cybermen. And then I thought well, they’re going to keep upgrading themselves – my computer doesn’t look like it did five or ten years ago, definitely not 15 years ago. It’s going to be faster and it’s going to be better. So let’s make the Cybermen faster and slicker and better. And with their faces let’s try and go back to something that felt a little creepier. I looked at the “Moonbase” ones and they have this weird, impassive, uncanny valley thing of just the two eyes and the mouth, in the position they would be on a human face. It’s just really unsettling, and I wanted that."

http://www.sfx.co.uk/2013/05/07/exclusive-neil-gaiman-talks-doctor-who-and-cybermen/
 

bengraven

Member
Journey was a bit of a let down after the perfect last episode, but it was just another fun Who running-away-from-certain-doom episode.

I like the interplay between him and Clara a lot. I know they're probably setting this up for another "she loves the Doctor" situation, but they seem to be doing it a lot slower and more tender, which I approve of if they're really going in that direction.

Doesn't help that she's so fucking beautiful (my god, that red dress).
 

Zomba13

Member
Usually I don't mind kids in stuff, at least not to the extent most other people do but my god did the kids suck in this.
 
I actually only thought this one was okay. Some baffling writing - which I find strange to say given how much I adore Gaiman's work. Critique:

-Why show the Cybermen as being capable of Super Speed, then write them as never using the power again? This is really baffling considering the Cybermen could have used their Super Speed to dodge the red gun.

-Why didn't the Emperor just transmat everyone away as soon as the Cyber Menace was revealed? Lots of pointless deaths.

-The Doctor mentioning the "old code" of the Cybermen could have invited some interesting exposition on their creation - some nod back to the Tenth Planet - perhaps even have the Cyber Planner investigating the Doctor's memories for their past defeats so they could create a perfect, undefeatable upgrade?

-I liked "Mr Clever", but his defeat was rather quick and hollow. The scenes in the Doctor's mind were good, would have liked more of them. As soon as Mr Clever became aware of the TARDIS though, he should have made it a priority.

-I would have liked the ending better if some of the Cybermen survived, or at least have some Cybermites infect the Emperor's ship - ready to begin again.

-The military characters weren't interesting. The children were intolerable. Clara didn't seem frightened by any of what was happening and continued with her quips and smartness - it makes her seem less of a developed character at times. I did like her slaps of The Doctor though.

The episode was just okay. The Bells of St John, Asylum of the Daleks, A Town Called Mercy, and especially the magnificent Hide, have been the best of this season. This one is somewhere in the middle.
 

Quick

Banned
Watching it right now. God damn, I hate Angie already. "This is stupid", "she's so stupid", "she's not our mum" seems like really forced lines to me.
 
There's a guy who posts on gallifrey base that previously assisted Neil Gaiman with The Doctor's Wife on continuity/mythology items. He assisted with this one too, had some interesting insight:

Once again I helped Neil Gaiman out with the Doctor Who mythology side of things, getting to read every draft he wrote along the way.

The shooting script was over-length, and before shooting they decided to drop the first 4 scenes. These would have alternated between the graveyard near Clara and Artie and Angie's house and the TARDIS interior and taken place late at night. This is when we would have first learned that the kids were onto Clara's double life and had insisted on coming along on a trip. We would've seen Clara talking the Doctor into bringing them along despite the possible danger, using arguments to do with the relative ages of the Doctor and Clara and how she's really just a kid to him too. Artie then would've suggested "educational" destinations, all of which were from Earth history and all of which we've seen the Doctor travel to in the series before, so he doesn't want to go to any of those. His compromise is to take them to the amusement park planet, which he thinks will be safe, for which he has a golden ticket. And then the story proceeds with them landing near Webley's spaceship/museum as you saw. These scenes would also have established that the Doctor doesn't like having kids in the TARDIS as he's afraid they'll press buttons and cause mayhem, and there was originally a reminder of this in the scene where he puts the kids to bed in the museum as he honestly thought that would be safer than leaving them in the TARDIS by themselves. When the first references were lost in the first 4 scenes, that later reminder was cut too.

Length wasn't the only consideration in cutting those 4 scenes... they also didn't want to have to revisit the graveyard location on a night shoot with the kids if they didn't have to, as that was causing scheduling problems.

The other cuts were a lot of character moments for the kids, and there was a little more of the Cybermen stalking the soldiers outside the castle too.

As many guessed, the ending on "The Crimson Horror" was a late addition necessitated by the dropping of the first 4 scenes from "Nightmare in Silver."

Steven Moffat wanted [the kids] included. I know that they were originally to have featured more in the season than they have, and that originally they and Clara were all the Victorian versions we saw in "The Snowmen," and their names were different. The Victorian era was to have been the "home base" era for the whole season, but Steven Moffat changed his mind on that. I think the idea was to top or tail every episode with a Victorian-era scene of Clara's home life, after the Doctor dropped her off each time.

Neil first started developing the story for the Victorian characters (who were named Beryl, Angie, and Godfrey), wrote a chunk of script, but then lost the laptop computer he'd been writing on when he forgot to pick it up off a plane and never got it back. This upset him at first, but within 2 weeks Cardiff told him they'd changed the plans in any case to the modern Clara, Angie, and Artie. So he'd've had to start over then anyway.

Every draft of the script called for them to move silently. They changed this very late in the post-production process and put sound effects on their motion again. The reason Neil was given was that without them, it looked as though they'd just made a mistake in the dubbing, and that the finished episode no longer made as big a meal of their silent motion as it should have to sell that point. There were some scenes of Cybermen-stalking-the-soldiers that were lost due to timing cuts where their silence was more important.

The only other "ability" I can think of now was a sort of built-in sniper rifle possibly coupled with super-cyber-hearing for the bit where the first Cyberman at the castle shoots and kills the Captain. Obviously that was simplified to just their normal arm gun, and using a Cybermite to do the eavesdropping with so that the Cyberman on the ground knew it had better kill the Captain right then or else she'd blow up the planet.
 

Bossun

Member
Another flat episode for me...
Where's the grandeur?
Where's the epic?
Who's the bad guy again?

I feel like I'm back in season 1.
 
In any other episode, if a bit character was as aggressive and asshole-ish as Angie was, they'd have to redeem themselves in some way- possibly via some kind of sacrifice.

But nope, kids will be kids xD
 

Clegg

Member
Moffat was criticised for the heavily serialised nature of season 6. I think he's gone too far the other way in season 7. Everything is just sort of tenuously linked together. Clara is a good idea for a character but she hasn't really been fleshed out. Its like she's a bunch of bullet points for an interesting character but Moffat stopped before developing her fully.

In the mini episode for next weeks finale (don't read if you haven't seen any of the spoilers for the finale)
the Doctor talked about how Clara was always too perfect to be real. Im not too sure about that point ever actually coming across to the viewer. Imo they've not built her up well enough. Maybe thats Moffats plan though. She's not been fully developed because she's splintered herself across time.
 
They basically turned the Cybermen into more of a borg race than their own kinda thing.
Now they just upgrade constantly and utilize non-human bodies for cyber conversion.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
There's a guy who posts on gallifrey base that previously assisted Neil Gaiman with The Doctor's Wife on continuity/mythology items. He assisted with this one too, had some interesting insight:
This is enlightening, thanks for posting. I actually remember Gaiman talking about losing a laptop last year.

Steven Moffat wanted [the kids] included. I know that they were originally to have featured more in the season than they have, and that originally they and Clara were all the Victorian versions we saw in "The Snowmen," and their names were different. The Victorian era was to have been the "home base" era for the whole season, but Steven Moffat changed his mind on that. I think the idea was to top or tail every episode with a Victorian-era scene of Clara's home life, after the Doctor dropped her off each time.
^ this would have been so much better than what we're (not) getting with modern Clara, holy shit. Would go a long way in giving her character, and Clary Poppins was already a better Clara in the first place. I wonder if the change was in part due to budget reasons.
 

bengraven

Member
Something that is bothering me : in "Hide" the Doctor plugs that empathic amplifier into the TARDIS.

But then Clara pilots the TARDIS into the alternative realm... And the psychic is still using the amplifier.

What's it plugged into?!
 

Quick

Banned
Just finished it. Not sure if it's the writing, editing, or both, but it seems a bit disjointed. I enjoyed it overall, just very oddly edited.

LOVE the new Cybermen design. Seeing it in motion was cool.

CG was a bit spotty, specifically when they had millions of Cybermen lined up outside the castle, and when they were teleported into the emperor's ship.

What's it plugged into?!

Love.
 

gabbo

Member
There's a guy who posts on gallifrey base that previously assisted Neil Gaiman with The Doctor's Wife on continuity/mythology items. He assisted with this one too, had some interesting insight:

Damn. If only they had filmed those scenes. Filling in all that space would have been a big help to make the episode better. Absolutely hated Angie, with her typical 'bratty teen' routine. So well acted I suppose, but wasting time here (Also, just ask the Doctor to pimp your phone, he does it all the time). Not nearly as whimsical or fun as Doctors Wife, but it wasn't as scary as it was meant to be either. So if next episode is the finale, should I expect Moffat to pull his usual and shove as much of the season arc into it as is possible?

Mama Robotnik said:
-I would have liked the ending better if some of the Cybermen survived, or at least have some Cybermites infect the Emperor's ship - ready to begin again.
Didn't they infect Angie's phone?
 
should I expect Moffat to pull his usual and shove as much of the season arc into it as is possible?

Yup. Seems like we're getting (I'm just specualting on what's involved, but will spoiler tag):

- Name of the Doctor/ Doctor Who? resolution
- Clara resolution
- Great Intelligence
- Fields of Trenzalore resolution
- River Song
- Possible link to 50th.
 

Savitar

Member
I liked the episode but I don't hold out too much hope for next week, especially if said leaks are true. The show feels like it needs a massive change in every aspect, it's a nice ride but it feels lackluster like there's that inescapable feeling something is missing that bugs you. After this season I really want to see someone new in charge and take the show in a different direction, no mystery companion either, that's played out beyond belief at this point. I like Claire, I just don't care about the mystery surrounding her.
 
Uneven episode, but enjoyable on balance. Kids were terrible but they were put in a walking coma soon enough that it didn't really matter.

Cyber speed is the new Force run.

So was there a 6th Doctor reference? annoying kids?

Space King proposing to the companion, like Peri being married off to Brian Blessed?
 

PaulloDEC

Member
I enjoyed watching it I think, but I won't be rushing back to it. Felt very weird in terms of structure, and the production design was all over the place.

Reminded me again of why I've never really cared for the Cybermen too, i.e. they're just dull, dull, dull. They're basically a generic, robot soldier most of the time, and this episode was no exception. Wake me up when someone finally decides to adapt "Spare Parts" for TV.
 
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