EleventhDoctor
Banned
oh goddamn that's good. I need to rewatch that.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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oh goddamn that's good. I need to rewatch that.
User 100115
Banned
"Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
SO GOOD.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Good Man Goes to War is a servicable episode that I wouldn't have strong feelings for one way or the other were it not for the godawful reveal at the end and its implications for the rest of the season, an awful reveal that is made even worse by River's absolutly horrendous, over the top delivery. "Its me, I'm your daughter", YES WE GOT THAT THANK YOU
Yeah, I still find every time he gets visibly angry to be hilarious. Something about the way he carries himself, the way his face looks, just doesn't work for me
Seven Force
Banned
I like Tennant and Smith about equally, though I'm slightly biased towards Tennant since the first episode of Nu-Who that I watched was New Earth (Which... is admittedly not that great of an episode, but yeah)
I liked the first half of AGMGTW. I don't hate the second half or anything, but I didn't really care for the lead up to the ending since by that point, River's identity was painfully obvious to me.
I liked the first half of AGMGTW. I don't hate the second half or anything, but I didn't really care for the lead up to the ending since by that point, River's identity was painfully obvious to me.
User 100115
Banned
I find it incredibly realistic. When he gets really angry, his eyes tear up even. Matt isn't concerned with always looking 'cool'. You know, that 'deep brooding look' most actors put on to portray anger. His face twists, he gets ugly, he gets shaky, and it's glorious.
Being that River Song has the likability of a large pike of chicken piss, anything with her in it is awful and anything centrally focused on her is borderline blasphemously total-series bastardizing.
So yeah, The Wedding of River Song makes me die slowly inside. A Good Man Goes to War is better but she's still there so my balls reverse-drop.
So yeah, The Wedding of River Song makes me die slowly inside. A Good Man Goes to War is better but she's still there so my balls reverse-drop.
Relative to my expectations of the river reveal and an episode written by moffat after the outstanding opener, A Good Man Goes to War disappointed me at the time, but its still packed with interesting characters (first appearance of Vastra! And I loved lorna bucket's arc and the way it cast the doctor's escapades in a different, more sinister light) and setpieces. Certainly better than 6x13.
I for one don't get the uproarious river hate online, though - her story was my favourite thing about the show up until 6x13 (is it because people don't get her timeline? Its not that complicated)
I for one don't get the uproarious river hate online, though - her story was my favourite thing about the show up until 6x13 (is it because people don't get her timeline? Its not that complicated)
APZonerunner
Member
I think Tennant is a much more skilled actor than Smith, but in a broad sense I prefer Smith's Doctor.
User 100115
Banned
Damn, it hurts to be one of the only people here who really likes River 
EleventhDoctor
Banned
I think most people's perspective and enjoyment of Season 6 depends on if they like River Song. The River haters online seem to despise Season 6-but I don't mind her and I love the majority of Season 6-and that sentiment is shared by most of my "real life" friends.
User 100115
Banned
I honestly think a lot of the most vicious River hate stems from fandoms obsession with Rose Tyler. Which makes me dislike her even more
I didn't dislike Rose until I discovered her fandom. Damn you fandom!APZonerunner
Member
I think River began to crack for me during that Dalek scene in 5x11, and it's just got worse every episode since then. Rather loved her in Angels Take Manhattan though, she was back on top form and doing what she does best there - not being the centre of attention but a vital satellite.
Yeah I didn't notice that... could have done with being a two parter, as most single parter big Mofatt-written episodes could (the fact the Flesh got two parts to do the old "I'm the real Doctor! Shoot him!" bit is pathetic), but I really liked it.
Only downside apart from its length is that Jack could have been in it were it not for terrible US Torchwood :\
Best episode of S6 for this only;
Yeah that was pretty much awesome.
I get her timeline. I loved her in the library, and I loved her introduction. The concept is sweet.
But as I got to know her more, she just got more and more obnoxious. Her stupid quotes, her stupid hair, her stupid smile, her stupid face, ugjfdifdhhghdflhfdk
She embodies the modern Who fandom and I hate it.
User 100115
Banned
I really love the character, and the depth of her. I even made a fan video about her bitterness and the tragedy of it all. I love that we, the audience, are the only ones to really witness it. She has this 'face' she puts on for everyone else.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its funny, its the exact opposite with me. All of my real life friends can't stand River. The internet is the only place I've ever found people who like her.
My wife likes her, I don't hate her, I just kind of accept her as a facet of the show.
That said I am strange and can rationalize out a lot of stupid things.
Zeouterlimits
Member
I like River, but I know there are plenty of good reasons to dislike her?
A bit like Rose I suppose?
That I don't out and out disagree with the criticism but I actually really enjoy when she's on screen.
Actually I probably like her more than Rose.
A bit like Rose I suppose?
That I don't out and out disagree with the criticism but I actually really enjoy when she's on screen.
Actually I probably like her more than Rose.
The song is excellent and the speech is excellent and that's like 70% of the episode, so in my mind the episode is excellent.
Also the alien designs are all excellent.
Fuck that was a good episode.
Don't worry Fiction, I have your back!Damn, it hurts to be one of the only people here who really likes River
User 100115
Banned
Yay!
I love how everyone is so all over the place in this thread. We seriously all like different things/dislike different things, and never the twain shall meet. It makes for some awesome discussion. Also, how we don't get all crazy and start yelling at each other over a difference of opinion.
Damn, it hurts to be one of the only people here who really likes River
I like River, so does my fiancee... I was actually surprised coming onto here and seeing so much River hate. Fiancee tells me she sees a lot of hate for her in some other places as well.
But whatever, I like her anyway. Spoilers sweetie
it will be nice to see her again in the finale - just based on the trailer anyway
equippedwithtowel
Member
You just summed up aversion to River perfectly.
Hello Sweetie triggers my PTSD now.
AGMGTW is a deeply flawed episode of Who and I can only give it the limpest of recommendations. It falls into the awesome things happen for 40 minutes but they're just in there as money shots and not as the culmination of anything school of Moffat writing.
Plus it makes River the Ponds daughter, say what you will about pavement blowjob, at least could be excised mentally from the entire series when the episode ended.
User 100115
Banned
There is a LOT of hate for River in the 'creative' side of fandom; like I said, I made a River fanvid and one of the comments was 'This video sucks because of River; Rose is the Doctor's true love!' There is a rabid portion of fandom that just makes it their mission to hunt down and flame anything that shows the tiniest amount of regard for her, and it's annoying.
I can never, ever mentally expurgate pavement blowjob from my psyche. Scarred for life - thanks RTD.
Also - put me in the category who doesn't know anyone in real life who dislikes river. I may even be more excited to see a (plot details from DWM)
post-library river
EleventhDoctor
Banned
I actually have one colleague here at work that doesn't like River-and his complaint was that she was "too old".
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Ayup. Wedding is the prime offender of this though.
This describes Russell's writing more than anything - he said as much himself.
equippedwithtowel
Member
Name one episode he wrote that come close to The Wedding of River Song in being composed of complete non-sequiturs for the sake of being "awesome".
the parting of ways ,doomsday, last of the time lords, the entire series 4 finale, the end of time - granted the "awesome" set pieces were decidedly less awesome - the intent was still there though -
Is there any bigger offender than the stolen earth cliffhanger and its resolution?
I will never forgive RTD for Jesus Doctor. Ever. Moffat could make River the 12th Doctor and Jesus Doctor would still have more hate from me.
The secret books of saxon. THE SECRET BOOKS OF SAXON.
"LUCY:
But no-one knew you better than I did. I knew you'd come back. And all this time, your disciples have prepared. But so have we! (turns to the guard behind her and takes a small vial)
MASTER:
What are you doing?
LUCY:
The Secret Books of Saxon spoke of the Potions of Life, and I was never that bright, but my family had contacts. People who were clever enough to calculate the opposite. (makes to open the vial)
MASTER:
Don't you dare! I'm ordering you, Lucy. You will obey me!
LUCY:
Till death do us part, Harry!
MASTER:
NO-O-O-O!"
equippedwithtowel
Member
The first two are not even close, Last of the Time Lords Just had a shit ending, Journey's end get's a reprieve because the characters had been building for the previous 3 years, and the End of Time is pretty fucking understated when it counted.
Ventilaator
Banned
My hate for River is such that I can't even comprehend the idea that there's people out there who like her.
You might go "That's not much of an argument", but River is such a completely horrible waste of everything that "But she...she's River!" makes more than enough sense as an argument in my head.
You might go "That's not much of an argument", but River is such a completely horrible waste of everything that "But she...she's River!" makes more than enough sense as an argument in my head.
The End of Time
understated
we're talking about the episode where the Master turns into Skeletor and throws lightning like Storm, everyone on the planet literally turns into the Master, and the actual literal planet Gallifrey starts falling from the sky like the moon in Majora's Mask?
THAT understated episode?
Exterminieren
Banned
EASILY The End of Time. And I don't even mind The End of Time.
We got robbed of a wonderful, intimate bottle episode for that, though.
Woah, hey, if we're counting quiet, understated moments, Wedding had a few; the beach stuff, the Doctor learning of the Brigadier's death, Amy and River's chat at the end.
The End of Time went from cod-mystic and pretentious gubbins at the prison and on the Oodsphere to John Simm gurning in some docklands to him eating some people to a comedy interlude with the old people to comedy spiky aliens to the whole world becoming the Master to a comedy escape on a trolley to more portentous dross on Gallifrey to a quiet bit on the ship to a missile run to a Time Lord confrontation to a consequence-free appearance of Gallifrey to a really good bit of self sacrifice and a twenty minute tour of the last 5 years, each bit with its own scenario.
The Wedding of River Song is positively lucid and sober by comparison.
APZonerunner
Member
I don't really think there's that many non-sequiturs in The End of Time. The stuff with Gallifrey coming back was actually surprisingly well done, making use of the 'drums' in a way never originally intended, retroactively making Utopia/Sound of Drums/The Last of the Time Lords slightly better and erasing the problem that the old Master never heard drums (they were added after he was revived to fight the war) - and everything else there really follows. The way the Vinvocchi are there to try to salvage the gate, the booth with the two doors, the spaceship, blah blah.
The only thing that's really forced is the Master's revival, really.
I think pretty much any Doctor Who episode sounds like shit when you break it down like that, to be honest.
The only thing that's really forced is the Master's revival, really.
I think pretty much any Doctor Who episode sounds like shit when you break it down like that, to be honest.
equippedwithtowel
Member
I'm working off selective memory on that one since I kinda liked it the first time through and don't want to go back and ruin it.
The parts with Wilf were ace though.
I didn't say it was shit, I said it wasn't anywhere near understated. It had some fantastic moments, especially any time anything came out of Wilf's mouth.
I just couldn't take it seriously as a threatening situation once the master was everybody on the planet and in a dress clapping like a moron.
GameplayWhore
Member
Rory's "God Mode" scene was pretty great, but it really rubs me the wrong way that the Doctor can just go in and obliterate entire armadas whenever he feels like it as opposed to when he's forced to by situations out of his control (and usually with a lot of help that we actually see on screen). I don't like it when they resort to off-screen deity-like badassery. As great as Family of Blood was, for instance, that ending where he punished them with seeming random magic powers really annoyed me. I vastly prefer the Doctor when he's just an alien who's really clever when it counts.
I feel that nobody really touched on the reason why I think this is a great speech. I like it because of how much the Doctor was utterly, terribly wrong in every word of what he said. I'd bet that a fair number of those races up there were laughing at how little he realized that his big speech was pretty much what they wanted him to do.
As an aside, I'm really kind of shocked at the sheer variety in the ranking lists for this season. There are episodes in here that a couple people I believe have put forth as the worst tripe that ever had the Doctor's non-name on it, and those same episodes have been applauded as pure LSD injected straight through the eyeball into the brain. At least with prior seasons, there are some episodes you can point to as almost universally hated, and there are some episodes that are almost universally praised.
The solution of just shooting the terminal is pretty amateurish writing - not to mention everyone being the master, and then not all of a sudden, and the "ambiguous" i.e can't be bothered to come up with anything female character, and the superfluous dogfight in the vinvocchi ship (and the most protracted ending since the return of the king)
For me it summed up everything I didn't like about Russell's writing. He's not a very good storyteller, he did the same thing in every season and thought it was enough: Shove a vague artless prophecy into antecedent episodes, tease it endlessly (You're going to DIE rose / You're going to DIE donna / HE WILL KNOCK THREE TIMES), then throwing away the solution because he's more interested in cramming in as many "exciting" setpieces as possible.
APZonerunner
Member
Well, this is literally the Who writer status quo. RTD is a character god but struggles/often messes up plot, and Moffat is the mirror image. RTD's Who was character driven, and Moffat's is story driven.
Ironically, I think people gravitate towards the episodes the opposite of what each show runner offers - the RTD-era's break-out episodes were ones that were more plot-filled and driven than he would've ever written himself, and in Moffat's era people have gravitated towards episodes like The Doctor's Wife, Amy's Choice and The Girl Who Waited I think because the character work is a bit thin elsewhere.
If I have the choice, though, I'll generally speaking take good character writing around a bad story over a great story over bad character writing. I could watch Rose, Mickey and Jackie or Donna and Wilf sit around talking in a chip shop for hours, for instance.
Important to note: I still love Moffat's Who as much as RTD's, just for different reasons.
'SILENCE WILL FALL' / 'The Pandorica WILL open' / 'The question that must not be answered' / 'The FALL of the ELEVENTH'
Vague artless prophecies that can be completed next year and give them time to fill in the dots but just turn into big CGI setpieces ain't just RTDs speciality
I've seen this contention argued before and for me it's a false dichotomy, he wasn't a good character writer either (though that didn't stop him from trying) - out of that list Rose and Donna (and Martha actually, until she inexplicably became Mickey's bit on the side to tie up loose ends) were the only characters that went through some kind of believable growth throughout his tenure, Mickey, Jackie and Wilf were barely developed. They were one-dimensional character archetypes just as much as Clara has been so far (only she's had less time).
Yeah he tried to invest in character development more, but that doesn't mean he did it well - the idea that there are people out there that think Jackie was a great character (not a soulless husk spouting one-liners and pop culture references) makes me shudder a little.
Exterminieren
Banned
People are disrespecting Jackie in here?
Be warned.
Be warned.
APZonerunner
Member
The beauty of a good/well written character, like Wilf, is that they don't actually need to develop or have an 'arc' - Wilf for instance is incredibly well defined off his base. He doesn't need to have some crazy growth. Rory's like this, as well, I think, and is the only major Moffat-era character to really have that sort of solidness about him - I actually think that's why he's so loved, combined with Arthur's amazing performance. The Martha ending thing is unfortunate. He wanted to do "Smith and Jones," I get it, nice joke. Unnecessary, though.
Jackie is more a sketch, I admit (though I still think there's still a fair bit to her) - but a character like Mickey is, I think, defined really well in small things. There was a great article somewhere about everything you can glean about Rose & Mickey's relationship in 'Rose' alone, and how the two of them are basically a broken, dead-end relationship, but it's depicted without them actually having a sit-down discussion about how their relationship is broken. It's more subtle, for instance, than the way the problems between Amy and Rory are depicted in Asylum.
Preference thing, I suppose, but I think RTD - not just in Who, but in things like The Second Coming and Queer as Folk - is one of the best character writers on TV period.
Moffat is one of the cleverest story people - Sherlock and Who are proof enough of that, but even if you go back as far as Press Gang, his first major TV gig - that is a children's comedy sketch show that, incredibly, hinges heavily on week-to-week story developments and cliffhangers. Unheard of, and incredibly different and brave.
They're both two of the best; they just do things in different ways.
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