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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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The Autumn Wind
Harriet Jones is a good example. I'm not gonna agree with your other examples. If you want to take it that far, we just had that commander that was killed in Nightmare in Silver. I was thinking recurring characters that we get to know.
GameplayWhore
Member
No worries, it's just because the last thing I mentioned in my rant was a thing that happened to be in that episode (I was meaning that the problem would be even more pronounced if I considered the whole "Statue of Liberty is a Weeping Angel OMG OMG OMG!" thing (which I found inordinately silly but didn't have a really major problem with at the time).
But they're heroes. They spend millennia improving the course of Humanity's technological progress so they could enable the creation of a special weapon that would save the universe from the most dangerous man in history.
Frankly, I can't wait for them to team-up against a real evil!
Heh, I say those in a tongue in cheek fashion. They are not protagonists. I do, however, salute Moffat in that two of his three main (edit: that meaning "series ending") antagonists were really not acting with evil goals in mind.
equippedwithtowel
Member
Did they play even 30% of this during the episode?
Damn, great track and completely forgot it existed.
Unfortunately not, but it is a pretty long track. I think a minute of it was played when the Doctor was talking about Gallifrey in Series 3.
Future Foundation
Member
Please, Moffat, don't. For Christ's sake, fucking one of the things that made the latter stages of Buffy such a slog was him killing people because. There are other ways to build up "stakes", like...
The Great Intelligence was (is?) a being that fed off of madness and chaos. If this had been brought up - and then tied into - him wanting to cripple the Doctor's timeline (all those people/universes dying suddenly would be quite the clusterfuck) would've worked better, but I liked what I got.
In other news, here's a picture of Judd Apatow and Matt Smith:
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Please, Moffat, don't. For Christ's sake, fucking one of the things that made the latter stages of Buffy such a slog was him killing people because. There are other ways to build up "stakes", like...
The Great Intelligence was (is?) a being that fed off of madness and chaos. If this had been brought up - and then tied into - him wanting to cripple the Doctor's timeline (all those people/universes dying suddenly would be quite the clusterfuck) would've worked better, but I liked what I got.
In other news, here's a picture of Judd Apatow and Matt Smith:
Matt Smith looks like a psychopath with his head shaved.
He looks like a freakish alien with the hair, so I like shaved Matt imo
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
He looks like a guy who'd jab a broken bottle in my throat and then giggle while I choked on my own blood!
The music from when Donna steps into the time machine is my fav:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjmGZfHHC80
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjmGZfHHC80
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
I love Jenny and am glad she wasn't killed off, but come on. Even I was confused that they were just bringing her back.. both times.. right away. I could have seen it being her being killed at the beginning and not being brought back until everything "reset" itself at the end.
If they were going to kill off a character completely I'd prefer it be Vastra. As long as it's not Strax. Goddammit don't ever kill Strax. Not even in glorious battle to the death.
I'm still kinda partial to Cassandra's Waltz, but this is really good too as is most music from the show including the Doctor's theme from 11. As well as 9/10 from the first two seasons.
Cassandra's Waltz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXyiVpnd6Po
Doctor's Theme: (Season 1+2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRrOI7By5fc
Season 4 version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUS545w8cM
Eleventh Doctor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUMEzUMcu64
Good stuff.
So, ugh, question...
For the Season 3 Christmas Special "Runaway Bride", the 10th Doctor kills all of the Racnoss -- to the point that Donna tells him "isn't that enough?" (paraphrasing).
So, uhm, isn't that, you know, genocide and not worthy of the Doctor title either?
For the Season 3 Christmas Special "Runaway Bride", the 10th Doctor kills all of the Racnoss -- to the point that Donna tells him "isn't that enough?" (paraphrasing).
So, uhm, isn't that, you know, genocide and not worthy of the Doctor title either?
This comes up a lot for some reason, but really he calls for humans to fight back against aliens secretly interfering in their lives. This is a bit like saying the French resistance in WWII was engaged in genocide against the Germans.
Unless you think they're actually from Earth and have evolved alongside us, but that seems unlikely given their goals.
But really I'm not sure where people get the idea that the Doctor is a pacifist from. He's fought and killed many times, in both old and new Who. Sure, usually not with a gun of his own, but he's definitely helped many people fend off aggressors.
Edit: ^ In other news, Matt Smith doesn't look like a freakish alien anymore with his head shaved
He looks like he could be Eccleston's brother or something.
The thing is he calls for the attack of not only the aggressors and soldiers, but the entire race of silents. What about the innocent Silent that was secretly plotting to overthrow his general's evil regime?
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The Autumn Wind
Strax was already killed in A Good Man Goes to War. We still don't know how he was brought back, do we?
Randy Lanzarote
Member
Offscreen reset button. (I think a webisode or dvd extra has vastra revive him)
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Yeah he had apparently just fainted. It's pretty lame *sigh*
APZonerunner
Member
I think they're pretty equal, all told, yep.
The finale is like a microcosm of the series, I feel. For me, I often preferred RTD's finale's for a good chunk of them, but then he had a terrible habit of doing one thing so horrid and egregiousness that it really ruins everything in that episode. See: Jesus Doctor/LOTTL resolution, which takes a really great episode and pours a bucket of shit on it.
Moffat, like his overall vision for the series, is generally more consistent with his finales, but rather than a collection of great thematic ideas ruined by one massive stupid thing, he tends to have one really strong idea with a number of smaller things around the periphery bringing it down a touch.
Nobody's perfect, though. Both are amazing. Still think their 'first' finales are their best ones. Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways is just untouchable, imo, iffy production aside. I think Name of the Doctor will end up being Moffat's Doomsday, which comes close but also completely polarizes some people.
Well, he specifically (if indirectly) subliminally instructs humans to "kill them all on sight," which is pretty bloody specific. The encouragement that went out to occupied France was to fight back, not to kill every German you see.
What maharg said is right though - he's not a pacifist at all. The show has always had these identity crises on this, though. The first instinct of the show as a kids' show, I guess, is to have him be that character to be a positive role model. I think what people realize is that it makes for a pretty boring show, though. So we end up with stuff like "Make the foundation of this society a man who never would," immediately following when he fully intended to blow up an entire Sontaran battle fleet, or the Third Doctor literally SMOKING DUDE WITH LASER GUNS to the Fourth being unable to bring himself to destroy the Daleks.
That said, I think the way series 4 handled it - that ultimately it's the meta-crisis Doctor who 'fulfils the prophecy' with the real deal hating him for it - is nice. In a sense, that particular scene and twist now actually leans into what we're likely to get with Hurt - if Hurt is born during the height of the war, it is he, not Eccleston's Doctor, who was "born in blood, and battle, and rage" - and he would be the one willing to pull that trigger not only on the Daleks but on his own people too.
I think the Doctor that ends the time war is different to the one in the show, deeply changed by events. Let us not forget the Doctor had the chance to genocide the Daleks prior to their creation and decided not to, because he deemed it morally repugnant. This continues in New Who, mostly. Nine goes mental in Dalek and comes to his senses, and genuinely considers killing them all in Parting of the Ways, but then backs down - potentially at the cost of the human race. Only Rose stops things.
In Doomsday, Ten is pretty flippant, but it's a ram-packed story and has no time for the moral posturing that is at the core of Genesis of the Daleks and Parting of the Ways. But then we see him in Evolution of the Daleks, and again, he offers a truce, offers to help Sec, and ultimately, in a sense, lets him go. In Series 4, it isn't the real Doctor, but the 'emotional throwback', that pulls the trigger.
So in terms of the Daleks, the attitude is relatively consistent. Smith's Doctor hasn't really had a traditional Dalek episode to sink his teeth into this, really - in Victory of the Daleks he rants about having a chance to get rid of them forever, like he actually wants to, but we never see if he'd actually do it. I found his attitude towards the Daleks in the Asylum to be a bit weird (simply letting the Daleks destroy their 'sick' seemed very un-Doctor to me, even if they are Daleks) but again, the situation was forced on him and he had Amy and Rory to worry about, so... it's tough to tell.
There's other cases of him doing genocidal, war-like things, like the Racnoss, but that was more a statement about him going off the rails without someone to look after him. That's a story beat that has continued, right through to River telling him not to travel alone in this series. And not those two together, either, because she knows they're as bad and as deadly as each other. That said, I think his (new series + Genesis) relationship with the Daleks is the barometer to which everything else should be measured, and by that, he's actually fairly consistent. Smith's Doctor appears a little crueller than the others, at a glance, but I also think that's a Moffat versus RTD statement where Moffat would rather play his emotional beats (which he does fewer of, too) elsewhere.
Jesus Doctor was perfectly fine. Power of love is realEspecially when backed up by that freaky system, do not remember the name of it anymore.
The Archangel Network. Just to lay it on extra thick.
Exterminieren
Banned
The most effective Doctor Who music: The Dark and Endless Dalek Night.
When the Dalek message came up in The Stolen Earth, and this started blaring... holy shit.
The arrangement of This Is Gallifrey that was throughout the pre-titles of The Name of The Doctor is the best version of that, by the way. Can't wait for the soundtrack this year; Ballad of the Ponds, Clara's Theme, The Asylum Theme, The Last Song... WANT.
When the Dalek message came up in The Stolen Earth, and this started blaring... holy shit.
The arrangement of This Is Gallifrey that was throughout the pre-titles of The Name of The Doctor is the best version of that, by the way. Can't wait for the soundtrack this year; Ballad of the Ponds, Clara's Theme, The Asylum Theme, The Last Song... WANT.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I really liked Jack's "There's nothing I can do... we're dead. I'm sorry."
I remember the first time I heard that. I got chills all over my body. Jack's usually so positive so to see him defeated was nerve wracking.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
New prediction; Hurt started The Time War.
Exterminieren
Banned
Tom Baker's Doctor did that, in Genesis of the Daleks.
That was great.
I also really liked Sarah Janes reaction to the Daleks. Immediately after hearing the voice, she knows what it means for them. Fantastic acting.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It was a little cheesy, but I really, really liked bringing all the companions together.
Nah, in The Snowman it's mentioned that he legitimately died and was revived though. The technology used however was not perfect and essentially gave him some form of brain damage, which is why he acts the way he does.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
The Sarah Jane/Davros scene is one of my favourite ever in doctor who. That whole three parter was absolutely brilliant until the last fifteen mins of Journey's End and the advent of metacrisis.
The Elite
BOSS
Yup. He looks like a hooligan.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
The Sarah Jane/Davros scene is one of my favourite ever in doctor who. That whole three parter was absolutely brilliant until the last fifteen mins of Journey's End and the advent of metacrisis.
Yeah but Donna's "death" was arguably worse than her actually dying.
acheron_xl
Member
This is Gallifrey is alright, I guess. Usually I don't notice the music. There are two exceptions: When I am the Doctor plays, I always groan a little inside. And when I hear Martha's Theme, I always perk up a bit. Love the melody in that one.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Quick question, does anyone think Moffat is actually going anywhere with the following plot points, or is he just going to forget about them:
-Tardis being taken over and a voice saying "silence will fall"
-"no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" at Trenzalore
I'd have preferred hints at a death actually happening for once personally.
I don't mind much in this instant since Caan was lying through his protrudences though.
-Tardis being taken over and a voice saying "silence will fall"
-"no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" at Trenzalore
I'd have preferred hints at a death actually happening for once personally.
I don't mind much in this instant since Caan was lying through his protrudences though.
Exterminieren
Banned
The intention was clearly that the Silence movement were trying to kill him or disable his transport, but that doesn't quite match up with series 6 as it turned out, so I'd say aborted rather than forgotten.
The Doctor couldn't speak falsely, because the TARDIS doors wouldn't have opened if he had. He couldn't fail to answer, because then his friends would have been killed. The prophesy was broken by the introduction of River, who wasn't a living creature at all.
I like Clara's Theme. It has a sweet, prim whimsicality about it that is very well conveyed by Jenna at certain moments, usually in Moffat scripts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avehdJlf2_A
Dr Zhivago
Member
Don't recall that at all. I remember the Doctor saying something about 'a friend' reviving Strax, though.
One of my issues with Moffat's finales is that there's never any cost to the Doctor. Davies' finales ended up with the Doctor regenerating or the companion leaving in some fashion. By contrast, in Moffat's first one Rory came back to life!
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Yeah, but how. They never showed any astonishing ability to hack into a tardis before, which even the daleks couldn't do.
That makes little sense though. "no living creature ... can fail to answer", not "the doctor can't fail to answer". River not being a "living creature" doesn't even matter since she spoke truthly anyway. If your interpretation is correct, that's pretty poor writing on moffats part for me.
JonathanEx
Member
Good point - though I suppose we had that in the mid-season finale - definitely this series losing Amy/Rory, and maybe last series with Good Man Goes to War.
Hot Coldman
Banned
They should do something with Mondas.
Not any time soon, Moffat's got his own shit to sort out, but I'd like to see them bring that back at some point. I know Spare Parts is beloved, but it's not actually canon, and with the invasion and eventual amalgamation of the Mondas and Pete's World Cybermen I can see that starting to have some weird effects on the Mondasians timestream.
Plus, I could see a Mondasian pre-conversion making for an interesting character study. See what drove them to total conversion. Some of them must be pretty fucked up, yeah?
Not any time soon, Moffat's got his own shit to sort out, but I'd like to see them bring that back at some point. I know Spare Parts is beloved, but it's not actually canon, and with the invasion and eventual amalgamation of the Mondas and Pete's World Cybermen I can see that starting to have some weird effects on the Mondasians timestream.
Plus, I could see a Mondasian pre-conversion making for an interesting character study. See what drove them to total conversion. Some of them must be pretty fucked up, yeah?
Worthintendo
Member
Gonna go against the trend and say I didn't like that scene, I thought it was stupid that Torchwood has all these alien weapons but can't stand up to the Daleks or at least try to. Heck they were using normal guns to fire at the Daleks breaking in, they must have had something better then that.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
I don't mind that too much, Davros Daleks are like one man armies anyway.
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