Donkey Kong Country Returns |OT| Retro Studios Has Done It Again!
- Thread starter Tricky I Shadow
- Start date
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
EatChildren said:
see: Metroid Prime Corruption
udivision said:
Its a simple shake. Thats all it ever was. There's nothing imprecise about a simple action tied to a simple shake. If anything, you have to worry more about accidently setting it off. The game is not asking you to shake in a specific way, nor is it trying to track a specific gesture. Its a problem blown way out of proportion in regards to most Wii software.
I will say however sustained shaking is a pain in the ass. I did not much care for Zelda Wii or Okami Wii for that reason.
Tathanen said:
No, I figure the existence of the motion controls is because it's probably a good fit for the default control scheme, which your game is required to be able to use to pass lot check. You can't release a game without it being playable at least with a Wii Remote + Nunchuk. It makes sense.
What doesn't make sense is the lack of the other option we've been discussing.
Tathanen said:
I contend this post is nonsense. Pressing a button requires no special skill whatsoever. You push your thumb down, things immediately happen on screen. You flick the remote and it's not completely predictable how the game is going to interpret your action. Motion control input is a lot more complex than button input. Maybe I don't know how to "use waggle well" but, for example, the motion controls in Corruption were really frustrating to me. The fact that the same developer is using motion controls in this game is a cause for concern to me.
Gram Negative Cocci said:
that's funny, cause the waggle in Corruption didn't work very well, in my opinion. Loved shooting with the pointer though.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Wallach said:
Which is why I included "they didn't think it was simply the best implementation of a control scheme on the Wii's primary interface and that a CC alternative wasn't as good and would undermine their faith in the scheme they had put together?"
I see this in a lot of Nintendo games, and I support it. All this options options options talk rings hollow to me. If the scheme is developed well, there shouldn't need to be other options. If you as a developer feel the need to include multiple control options, that reeks to me of "we don't think the main scheme we developed is very good." Focus less on options, and more on making your primary scheme the best it can be, and developing a game very specifically around how it performs. "Oh well they can always use the CC instead" is not a valid option to me.
agrajag said:
So you are claiming that "flicking one's wrist" requires special skill? I contend this post is equally nonsense, and we are at an impasse.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
agrajag said:
If I recall correctly, they bitched about the pointing controls too, just like the did with CoD4, and GoldenEye.
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
agrajag said:
What are you talking about? You flick the nunchuck when at the appropriate distance away from a highlighted grapple point. It ALWAYS works. The morphball jump ALWAYS works unless you're rolling along uneven ground. I've been watching the Corruption let's play for awhile now, and Slowbeef makes the same mistakes so many others make in assuming there's some "impreciseness" to the accelerometer in the nunchuck, when in fact he's just not playing by the game's rules. What's actually occuring is that he's often too close to his grapple point, or isn't highlighting it with his cursor, or is too far , has level geometry interrupting the grapple beam, moves away from his grapple point before it latches on. It's very frustrating to watch and I think its indicative that the 'horrors of waggle' are merely personal problems.
Now if you want to bitch about the insertion sequences, that was weird pointer based mechanics.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
agrajag said:
I claimed it as one of three options, the other two being "hate having to waggle" and "who have an axe to grind." I think those two apply to the flick-of-the-wrist kind of waggle, which is what DKCR uses, and has basically no learning curve whatsoever (beyond the "process a new kind of thing" effort).
Beyond the DKCR conversation, other forms of motion control require more of a learning curve than a button press, certainly. But not more of a learning curve than the stylus on the DS, or using an analog stick to control a character in 3D for the first time. Which I think we all managed.
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
udivision said:
I think my problem is that doing a full combo didn't pay attention to your swings, it just wanted you to keep shaking until the animation was over. And it couldn't even read vertical slices without using the analog
Gram Negative Cocci said:
I'm not bitching about anything. I posted about a legitimate problem with the game that many people besides me have experienced. I'm speaking mostly about the parts where you have to stick your arm into some socket and twist it. It never worked the way it's supposed to, but maybe I'm just waggle-retarded. If that is so, then so are many, many other gamers.
I'm not buying this game unless the difficulty really kicks my butt. And I mean really, really kicks my butt. NSWMB Wii was too simple for me and it kind of took the fun out of the game.
I grew up playing platformers since the early 80s so I guess I developed pretty good gaming skills for these types of games.
Regardless I still want to play this game badly. So it's either rent or buy for me.
I grew up playing platformers since the early 80s so I guess I developed pretty good gaming skills for these types of games.
Regardless I still want to play this game badly. So it's either rent or buy for me.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Vizion28 said:
It looks harder than that game.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
agrajag said:
The reason those could be tricky is that you actually have to make sure you are pointing at the screen during the entire process, and it's easy to end up not doing that. The Remote senses depth by watching the sensor bar lights get closer or farther apart from each other. If you've got interference, or lose sight of the bar, yeah you can have issues there.
That said, this is not an action you have to perform in the midst of any kind of battle. It's always in a peaceful scenario where you have the time to situate and perform the actions. This is a case where motion controls were implemented not for gameplay purposes, but for creating a specific physical sensation. Personally I absolutely loved them, even if they could occasionally be finicky, because I just loved the sensation of pulling that thing in and out, and the clank noise it made when I rotated my wrist. It was nice and tactile, and produced an experience categorically un-reproducible by button or controller input.
Now if I had to do it to reload a gun every 20 seconds in a game, yeah that's a bit much, particularly if it can be inconsistent. But in the way Prime 3 used it, I thought it was great.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
udivision said:
Maybe but perhaps the game isn't completely difficult unless you go for everything, I am sure they made 100%ing it a bitch.
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
agrajag said:
That wasn't waggle per se. That was the game using the sensor bar/pointer to try and read you wiimote in 3d space. Had very little to do with the accelerometers.
Tathanen said:
I also thought it was a great idea and it was immersive when it did work, but the immersion was immediately ruined for me when it didn't. I often noticed that the game wouldn't register my movement, and when I returned the remote to the default position it would register that movement and Samus's arm ended up moving in the opposite direction.
boiled goose
good with gravy
the pointer is a legitimate and in many ways superior option to dual analogue.
Waggle as a button substitute is rarely superior.
Sometimes it feels better (no more heroes)
Sometimes it feel right (mario galaxy)
Sometimes it allows you to perform simultaneous actions in addition to button presses, ie you can shake independently of your thumbs and fingers (NSMBW, excitebots)
Sometimes it allows for more complex input than a button with less latency (throwing grenades or blox, distance/speed calculated by force)
Sometimes it is acceptable (shake to reload)
Most of the time it is an unnecessary, forced, and an inferior substitute for a button (de blob, TP, okami)
It is yet to be seen where DKCR wil fall, but based on the type of actions performed, I am not entirely optimistic. It seems unnecessary. Sure make it an option so that the game can be played with the Wiimote and with the nunchuck. But why not include a CC option? Unless it somehow proves to be undoubtedly superior to pressing a button then it will be a unnecessary blemish on a possibly amazing game.
Waggle as a button substitute is rarely superior.
Sometimes it feels better (no more heroes)
Sometimes it feel right (mario galaxy)
Sometimes it allows you to perform simultaneous actions in addition to button presses, ie you can shake independently of your thumbs and fingers (NSMBW, excitebots)
Sometimes it allows for more complex input than a button with less latency (throwing grenades or blox, distance/speed calculated by force)
Sometimes it is acceptable (shake to reload)
Most of the time it is an unnecessary, forced, and an inferior substitute for a button (de blob, TP, okami)
It is yet to be seen where DKCR wil fall, but based on the type of actions performed, I am not entirely optimistic. It seems unnecessary. Sure make it an option so that the game can be played with the Wiimote and with the nunchuck. But why not include a CC option? Unless it somehow proves to be undoubtedly superior to pressing a button then it will be a unnecessary blemish on a possibly amazing game.
Chet Rippo
Member
SalsaShark said:
And it comes out in less than a week!
Just 5 more days!
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
Even if he played exactly the same, being able to play through as Cranky after you beat it would be unbelievably satisfying.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
I wonder when more reviews will begin to show up....
MidnightScott
Banned
Maffis said:
OMG you act like it's a fucking year. The game was made in Texas, of course we get it first.
So much platforming goodness this year on the Wii: Galaxy 2, Metroid, Kirby, Sonic Colors, and then Donkey Kong. <3
I can see both sides of the argument here. DKC Returns also comes with the problem that, unlike NSMB Wii, it's not bringing in a new ability with the motion.
I think much of the agitation from the side that's fine with using motion is because we're chomping at the bit for more good motion controlled games, and every hardcore praised game that comes out with GCN or CC controller options just slows down the process. Instead of more and more impressions about how the motion was implemented and then refinement, at least half of the impressions are just ignoring motions or calling them too much of a hassle.
Goldeneye is a perfect example of a game that's literally just pandering. It's not helping much at all by having that CC Pro bundle when at least half of the point of putting an FPS on the Wii is using the pointer.
Monster Hunter is another example that bothered me. The CC Pro bundle and the impressions other fans of the game gave of it, plus knowing about the "Claw" and other control issues with the PSP installments of the game, turned me off of it. The early videos of the developers showing off their motion control for the game didn't come off as very fun or exciting, although part of that is also caused by a lack of context over the frequency of certain actions in the game. The game came out, and I didn't even play the free demo I picked up from Gamestop. In the end, a friend push me to try it and I had a free slot on Gamefly for the foreseeable future, and I decided to give it a try.
The motions for that game are simple. You simply change the orientation of the remote, press the A button, and you get different attacks. Through the course of a combo, you either have to twist your wrist once when it came to the faster weapons, or back and forth for the slower weapons. In the end, the controls became half the reason I enjoyed the game. Now I'm not even sure if I want to get the upcoming PSP game since not only will I have to learn the button combos I was trying to avoid from before, I also will have to deal with the "Claw".
The worst part of this story for me? After my friend got me into it, I turned around and got three other friends into the game, and the five of us in total would play online in a rotating schedule, as we all had summer jobs or classes and couldn't all play every night at once anyway. I'd also see these guys some weekends for other games like Rock Band, and whenever the first one or two would arrive, we'd try some of the offline multiplayer mode. I soon found that I was the only one of the group that had even given the Nunchuck a try; they all instead got the CC Pro bundle. I'm extra annoyed at Capcom for deciding not to allow bowgunners to use the pointer to aim if they're playing Nunchuck style, citing it as an unfair advantage. A.) It's a cooperative game and B.) So what? It would have brought more people to give their control scheme a try.
I'm left thinking, what's the point? We need more games that make these motion controls worthwhile. Otherwise, the Wii might as well have not existed. Even games that have established themselves on dual analogs can become something different and entertaining on the Wii, as we've already seen the potential in FPS games and kart racers. Monster Hunter Tri has become my most played game on the system, and my second favorite overall, only beaten by NSMB Wii, another game people complained about not needing the motion and that it could have been handled by a button press. I'm hoping that DKC Returns can at least take third.
I think much of the agitation from the side that's fine with using motion is because we're chomping at the bit for more good motion controlled games, and every hardcore praised game that comes out with GCN or CC controller options just slows down the process. Instead of more and more impressions about how the motion was implemented and then refinement, at least half of the impressions are just ignoring motions or calling them too much of a hassle.
Goldeneye is a perfect example of a game that's literally just pandering. It's not helping much at all by having that CC Pro bundle when at least half of the point of putting an FPS on the Wii is using the pointer.
Monster Hunter is another example that bothered me. The CC Pro bundle and the impressions other fans of the game gave of it, plus knowing about the "Claw" and other control issues with the PSP installments of the game, turned me off of it. The early videos of the developers showing off their motion control for the game didn't come off as very fun or exciting, although part of that is also caused by a lack of context over the frequency of certain actions in the game. The game came out, and I didn't even play the free demo I picked up from Gamestop. In the end, a friend push me to try it and I had a free slot on Gamefly for the foreseeable future, and I decided to give it a try.
The motions for that game are simple. You simply change the orientation of the remote, press the A button, and you get different attacks. Through the course of a combo, you either have to twist your wrist once when it came to the faster weapons, or back and forth for the slower weapons. In the end, the controls became half the reason I enjoyed the game. Now I'm not even sure if I want to get the upcoming PSP game since not only will I have to learn the button combos I was trying to avoid from before, I also will have to deal with the "Claw".
The worst part of this story for me? After my friend got me into it, I turned around and got three other friends into the game, and the five of us in total would play online in a rotating schedule, as we all had summer jobs or classes and couldn't all play every night at once anyway. I'd also see these guys some weekends for other games like Rock Band, and whenever the first one or two would arrive, we'd try some of the offline multiplayer mode. I soon found that I was the only one of the group that had even given the Nunchuck a try; they all instead got the CC Pro bundle. I'm extra annoyed at Capcom for deciding not to allow bowgunners to use the pointer to aim if they're playing Nunchuck style, citing it as an unfair advantage. A.) It's a cooperative game and B.) So what? It would have brought more people to give their control scheme a try.
I'm left thinking, what's the point? We need more games that make these motion controls worthwhile. Otherwise, the Wii might as well have not existed. Even games that have established themselves on dual analogs can become something different and entertaining on the Wii, as we've already seen the potential in FPS games and kart racers. Monster Hunter Tri has become my most played game on the system, and my second favorite overall, only beaten by NSMB Wii, another game people complained about not needing the motion and that it could have been handled by a button press. I'm hoping that DKC Returns can at least take third.
twdnewh_k said:I can almost hear it coming
I just saw the E3 Video again and I got Goosebumps from that announcement.
Oh,and @ this Motion Control thing:
Why not?Super Mario Galaxy was the first Wii game I played and after a short moment I got so used to it that I shook my N64 controller while playing Super Mario 64-it just felt natural.Using motion controls from now on was just like using a PS2 controller when you played with a Gamecube controller for years,at least for me - after a short while I got used to it and it felt completely natural.
Hot Coldman
Banned
MidnightScott said:
You got Battalion Wars first as well, and that's a Headstrong game so fuck youuuuuu
=GabrielKnight=
Member
don't know if old, but 60 fps confirmed:
http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_donkey_kong_country_returns_trailer-17985_en.html
http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_donkey_kong_country_returns_trailer-17985_en.html
wtf, what happened to this thread? :lol
anyway, my colleague attended to the official presentation in Madrid, full of Canary Bananas, red ties and retro style:
http://www.revogamers.net/noticias/platanos-monerias-y-corbatas-rojas-presentar-retorno-dk-5724.html
follow the banana trail to get to the presentation :lol
banana mountain, red ties and pixel art!
Yep, I posted the same yesterday, I don't know if it was kongfirmed before.
anyway, my colleague attended to the official presentation in Madrid, full of Canary Bananas, red ties and retro style:
http://www.revogamers.net/noticias/platanos-monerias-y-corbatas-rojas-presentar-retorno-dk-5724.html
follow the banana trail to get to the presentation :lol
banana mountain, red ties and pixel art!
=GabrielKnight= said:
Yep, I posted the same yesterday, I don't know if it was kongfirmed before.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
CaVaYeRo said:
Heh, I see what you did there. Nicely done! :lol
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
A guy over at GameFAQS has the game and said that the controls are incredibly responsive and that once you get used to the motion controls they become second nature.
He's only up to World 3...but he also said that the difficulty level is spot on, with levels gradually getting more challenging and never being too easy or being absurdly hard!
He's only up to World 3...but he also said that the difficulty level is spot on, with levels gradually getting more challenging and never being too easy or being absurdly hard!
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