DOOM Gameplay Demo (E3 2015)

inm8num2 said:
Hah, I was going to say the same thing. Those tweet seem like hollow PR marketing speak...not that there's anything wrong with that.
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Well I think the point he's trying to make is its important they do enough to make things interesting.

Sometimes there's a difference between "smart" and "good" ai design. Like the ai in MGS2 in many ways are kinda dumb individually, but overall with the design of the game they enforce the stealth aspect better than games with smarter ai.
 
Comfort Jones said:
Well I think the point he's trying to make is its important they do enough to make things interesting.

Sometimes there's a difference between "smart" and "good" ai design. Like the ai in MGS2 in many ways are kinda dumb individually, but overall with the design of the game they enforce the stealth aspect better than games with smarter ai.
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Actually, compared to most other games (at least in Alert Mode), the AI in MGS2 (/Twin Snakes/3) is actually pretty damn good. Let me pull up the TV Tropes post I wrote about it...
When walking on metal floors, an enemy will hear it if a) they are close enough or b) if it is loud enough. If a soldier is downed and another person sees the bloodspot or finds the corpse, they will automatically kick it up to maximum security and a new guard will be sent to the area. If a guard is knocked out, they will kick it up to maximum security. If all guards have been killed, the commander will notice after a while and send a heavy-duty team to investigate. If the player has been spotted by a guard, they will smack/shoot the player (depending on how far away he is) and call for reinforcements. If the player has used a chaff grenade or has shot the guard's radio, he will try to gun the player down himself. When heavy reinforcements are called out, some of them will have riot shields and will use them as a baracade trapping Snake into a corner or narrow hallway. Also during Alert Mode, if there are blood trails on the floor leading into lockers and/or closets, the enemies will either throw a grenade into that area, or have each soldier comb each nook and crannie of the area and search the lockers (and they can HEAR YOUR HEARTBEATS and your breathing if you stand too close to the locker door!). If you are hiding behind cover, some guards will provide suppressing fire while some others will flank around you. Enemies also can have the uncanny ability to spot discolorations in the atmosphere or a floating gun if you are using stealth camo.
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Ixion said:
A better look at the Baron of Hell, courtesy of "The Civ" form DoomWorld:

1gSShC8.png
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Hey, I think I like this one!
 
i have asked this like a hundred times in other threads but for different games:

Was there any actual hands on demo on this game at the convention?

When i look for videos i only find the demo of Bethesda's press conference.

All the cool Sony stuff and this seems to be eyes only. What's going on? XD
 
Smurfman256 said:
Actually, compared to most other games (at least in Alert Mode), the AI in MGS2 (/Twin Snakes/3) is actually pretty damn good. Let me pull up the TV Tropes post I wrote about it...
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The thing is those are just kinda options they do within a narrow space. They don't actually do anything that smart on their own individually. They're scripted to do certain things, that's not the same as ai that's "smart" in that they have more natural problem solving skills within a level with a wide variety of things they can do at any point. It's mostly reactionary scripted stuff that makes them look smart, which works just fine.

Also lol MGS3's ai is terrible. It's basically 2's ai in a much more open space without any new options that help them out at all.
 
Refreshment.01 said:
i have asked this like a hundred times in other threads but for different games:

Was there any actual hands on demo on this game at the convention?

When i look for videos i only find the demo of Bethesda's press conference.

All the cool Sony stuff and this seems to be eyes only. What's going on? XD
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There was no hands-on for DOOM. Supposedly, this was the same footage they showed off at Quakecon last year with the SnapMap stuff being of the most recent build (hence the more stable frame rate versus the 40fps-ish stuff that was on display).
 
jimi_dini said:
What?

The AI in Doom 1 + Doom 2 was dumb like a brick (not that there's anything wrong with it)
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What AI in FPS was "good" at the time Doom and Doom 2 launched?
Smurfman256 said:
There was no hands-on for DOOM. Supposedly, this was the same footage they showed off at Quakecon last year with the SnapMap stuff being of the most recent build (hence the more stable frame rate versus the 40fps-ish stuff that was on display).
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That's dissapointing.

What important releases were playable at this show then? XD
 
Comfort Jones said:
The thing is those are just kinda options they do within a narrow space. They don't actually do anything that smart on their own individually. They're scripted to do certain things, that's not the same as ai that's "smart" in that they have more natural problem solving skills within a level with a wide variety of things they can do at any point. It's mostly reactionary scripted stuff that makes them look smart, which works just fine.

Also lol MGS3's ai is terrible. It's basically 2's ai in a much more open space without any new options that help them out at all.
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Even some of the more intelligent AI in games don't really do anything "on their own." Hell, even in FEAR 1, all the AI movement was based on two things; actively seeking cover and re positioning based on the player's last-known position. If you watch some of the AI actually fight OTHER AI, you can see that they're really none too bright.
 
Smurfman256 said:
Even some of the more intelligent AI in games don't really do anything "on their own." Hell, even in FEAR 1, all the AI movement was based on two things; actively seeking cover and re positioning based on the player's last-known position. If you watch some of the AI actually fight OTHER AI, you can see that they're really none too bright.
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Well that's my point, it's more about enemy options. So the ai in Doom 4 doesn't need to be "smart" as long as their simple options make sense and do their job.
 
Comfort Jones said:
Well that's my point, it's more about enemy options. So the ai in Doom 4 doesn't need to be "smart" as long as their simple options make sense and do their job.
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That is true. Although I'd much prefer it if they didn't go full-on old-school and just run at you zombie-style. Hell, I'd like to see some adaptive AI; they learn from your play-style and change their tactics accordingly. However, we probably won't see that because A) AI is already damn hard enough to program AI as it is and B) the puny little CPUs in the current gen consoles probably wouldn't be able to handle something like that.
 
Comfort Jones said:
Well that's my point, it's more about enemy options. So the ai in Doom 4 doesn't need to be "smart" as long as their simple options make sense and do their job.
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Ah okay. I would say that's level design with AI that serves specific gameplay purposes though. Wouldn't call it smart.
 
Smurfman256 said:
That is true. Although I'd much prefer it if they didn't go full-on old-school and just run at you zombie-style. Hell, I'd like to see some adaptive AI; they learn from your play-style and change their tactics accordingly. However, we probably won't see that because A) AI is already damn hard enough to program as it is and B) the puny little CPUs in the current gen consoles probably wouldn't be able to handle something like that.
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I don't like the running towards you either, the imps all do that from the footage right? I think that hurts to dodge and shoot gameplay alot. The old Doom wasn't like that though, the enemies were slow and took their sweet time to approach you. Only the pinkies and the flaming skulls really gunned for you, but even they weren't that fast and the pinkies swerved left and right while doing so. I hope they limit the amount of in-your-face enemies.
 
Smurfman256 said:
That is true. Although I'd much prefer it if they didn't go full-on old-school and just run at you zombie-style. Hell, I'd like to see some adaptive AI; they learn from your play-style and change their tactics accordingly.
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This is one of those things that sounds good in theory but it's basically punishing you for playing a certain way, like you're supposed to vary up what you do because reasons. The core combat becomes about trying to cheat the system, like do stupid things so they try to counter stupid things.

Also why would these hordes of crazy demons be planning out how they would take you down anyway.

Edit-FFS msv you are literally asking for them to make a 1:1 Doom even though that would not work when you have all these new things you couldn't do before, like jumping and....aiming. An actual 1:1 Doom game that plays exactly like the old games would not sell that well at all.
 
Comfort Jones said:
Also why would these hordes of crazy demons be planning out how they would take you down anyway.
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I like the idea of the hell creatures being more than just angry animals. That they is a hierarchy in the background, that they have some form of motivation besides rage.

Edit-FFS msv you are literally asking for them to make a 1:1 Doom even though that would not work when you have all these new things you couldn't do before, like jumping and....aiming. An actual 1:1 Doom game that plays exactly like the old games would not sell that well at all.
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Haha, settle down. Where am I asking for a 1:1 translation? All this stuff works great in Quake, whatcha talkin bout yo? All I'm saying is that overuse of in-your-face enemies doesn't do anything for the gameplay. It was abused in D3 IIRC, for shock / fear value.
 
msv said:
I like the idea of the hell creatures being more than just angry animals. That they is a hierarchy in the background, that they have some form of motivation besides rage.
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Yeah but if we're gonna talk about them being true to the og Doom they were never depicted as being all that intelligent, especially not the weaker ones.

Haha, settle down. Where am I asking for a 1:1 translation? All this stuff works great in Quake, whatcha talkin bout yo? All I'm saying is that overuse of in-your-face enemies doesn't do anything for the gameplay. It was abused in D3 IIRC, for shock / fear value.
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I'd say the enemy presentation in that demo was completely different from most of what I remember from 3. Lots more room to move and more time to react to what they're doing. I really don't think they'll be remaking 3's mistakes here.
 
Comfort Jones said:
I'd say the enemy presentation in that demo was completely different from most of what I remember from 3. Lots more room to move and more time to react to what they're doing. I really don't think they'll be remaking 3's mistakes here.
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Yeah definitely. I'm not convinced yet that they'll be able to clear out all of 3's mistakes, but it's looking much better.
 
Smurfman256 said:
That is true. Although I'd much prefer it if they didn't go full-on old-school and just run at you zombie-style. Hell, I'd like to see some adaptive AI; they learn from your play-style and change their tactics accordingly. However, we probably won't see that because A) AI is already damn hard enough to program AI as it is and B) the puny little CPUs in the current gen consoles probably wouldn't be able to handle something like that.
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Do you thing the status of AI is a CPU thing or more one of resources invested and talent?

i mean you say the weak console CPU's are to blame but then again the great jump in AI for console FPS came with Halo CE and that was on the original Xbox. Halo AI is yet to this day, better executed that most AI in the big FPS.

Also from what i recall, really intensive stuff like path finding could be delegated to GPUs. Or im wrong in this aspect?

In regards to Doom, i think an AI in the level of Rage would work wonderfully. In nature we see very wild animals that feature advanced hunting tactics so at the least have distinct and varied behaviors for the different creatures. The more anthropomorphic demons could exhibit more refined tactics and coordination since this wouldn't feel out of place.
 
Refreshment.01 said:
What AI in FPS was "good" at the time Doom and Doom 2 launched?
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What has this question to do with what the PR guy said?

"Challenging AI is fundamental to what Doom is and has always been."

This simply makes no sense. The AI of Doom wasn't challenging. Gameplay on higher difficulties probably was, but not because of the AI. Most enemies in Doom didn't use hitscan weapons, which means it was possible to dodge those, which also meant that they were able to raise the difficulty to insane heights.

Anyway, Doom's enemy "AI" was basically on the level of Wolfenstein 3D. As soon as it spotted you, it followed you everywhere and knew where you were all the time (basically cheating). Even the pathfinding wasn't that great. Doom itself improved an insane amount over Wolfenstein 3D, but the AI surely didn't.

When someone says "challenging AI", then "Half-Life (1)" or "F.E.A.R." will probably be my first thought. Doom would never even cross my mind at all.
 
Refreshment.01 said:
Do you thing the status of AI is a CPU thing or more one of resources invested and talent?

i mean you say the weak console CPU's are to blame but then again the great jump in AI for console FPS came with Halo CE and that was on the original Xbox. Halo AI is yet to this day, better executed that most AI in the big FPS.

Also from what i recall, really intensive stuff like path finding could be delegated to GPUs. Or im wrong in this aspect?

In regards to Doom, i think an AI in the level of Rage would work wonderfully. In nature we see very wild animals that feature advanced hunting tactics so at the least have distinct and varied behaviors for the different creatures. The more anthropomorphic demons could exhibit more refined tactics and coordination since this wouldn't feel out of place.
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If I recall correctly, on the 360, AI alone could take up an entire thread on the CPU. You could do it more efficiently, but that requires either an insanely talented programmer, or sheer dumb luck (I.E. FEAR 1).
 
Woorloog said:
I wonder if Doom will have co-op play for the campaign. Probably not?
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When i asked this Pete Hines on Twitter, he asked me if i havent watched the Presentation lol.
That presentation never mentioned campaign coop. Only some kind of horde whatever mode that you can create with SmartMap.
 
JumPeRJumPzZ said:
When i asked this Pete Hines on Twitter, he asked me if i havent watched the Presentation lol.
That presentation never mentioned campaign coop. Only some kind of horde whatever mode that you can create with SmartMap.
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Classic PR diversion. Or at least it could be.
Intentionally misunderstand what people mean by co-op.

(I have zero interest in a survival mode of any kind.)
 
jimi_dini said:
What has this question to do with what the PR guy said?

"Challenging AI is fundamental to what Doom is and has always been."

This simply makes no sense. The AI of Doom wasn't challenging. Gameplay on higher difficulties probably was, but not because of the AI. Most enemies in Doom didn't use hitscan weapons, which means it was possible to dodge those, which also meant that they were able to raise the difficulty to insane heights.

Anyway, Doom's enemy "AI" was basically on the level of Wolfenstein 3D. As soon as it spotted you, it followed you everywhere and knew where you were all the time (basically cheating). Even the pathfinding wasn't that great. Doom itself improved an insane amount over Wolfenstein 3D, but the AI surely didn't.

When someone says "challenging AI", then "Half-Life (1)" or "F.E.A.R." will probably be my first thought. Doom would never even cross my mind at all.
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You said the AI in Doom was dumb as bricks. i asked you what other AI back in those days was a lot better or not dumb. That's all. Then you named Half LIfe wich came like 5 years later and then FEAR which came more than a decade later, so those are not very fair comparisons.

Maybe the PR guy is just using the AI term as a refeence to the foes. Viewing it from that angle it kind of makes sense since Doom was indeed a challenging game. Not due to it's complex or smart behaviour but because the cheer number of AI untis that swarmed the player at a given time. The game throwed at you more enemies than wolfsteing did.

Btw, don't takes this as me be contrarian and im standing what the PR guy said.
Smurfman256 said:
If I recall correctly, on the 360, AI alone could take up an entire thread on the CPU. You could do it more efficiently, but that requires either an insanely talented programmer, or sheer dumb luck (I.E. FEAR 1).
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Out of curiosity what was the game in your example?

My main point is that maybe there's enough processing in the weak cuarrent console CPU's to have impressive AI if developers put the effort in the first place. That is why i gave the example of Halo, that even by today's shooter standards, it has really engaging AI. And that ran on a 700 MHZ single core Celeron processor. XD
 
has this been posted yet?

http://imgur.com/a/vZbOM

The color cast removed in some pictures. Saw it posted on doomworld. Looks much clearer and serviceable for gameplay. It shows a bit how those pictures are too dark or too one-toned in its lighting. What's essentially some more light/a white light so you can discern colors better makes everything so much clearer to see.
 
msv said:
has this been posted yet?

http://imgur.com/a/vZbOM

The color cast removed in some pictures. Saw it posted on doomworld. Looks much clearer and serviceable for gameplay. It shows a bit how those pictures are too dark or too one-toned in its lighting. What's essentially some more light/a white light so you can discern colors better makes everything so much clearer to see.
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My God...just removing the color grading fixes so much!
 
I thought the E3 footage was boring. Not exciting like Wolfenstein.

The multiplayer modes, and level building sound interesting though.

EDIT: The game looks much better with the filter off. They should only use filters in video games for like certain sections.
 
If Bethesda doesn't remove the color grading themselves, I guess mods will be able to do so - those unfiltered images look better and have greatly improved contrast, especially for the scenes from hell.
 
msv said:
has this been posted yet?

http://imgur.com/a/vZbOM

The color cast removed in some pictures. Saw it posted on doomworld. Looks much clearer and serviceable for gameplay. It shows a bit how those pictures are too dark or too one-toned in its lighting. What's essentially some more light/a white light so you can discern colors better makes everything so much clearer to see.
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That does look better. Hopefully we can use something like SweetFX on the PC to alter the color settings.
 
I want to find the participants of the focus groups who said it looks better with a strong yellow piss filter. I want to find them, and politely ask them why.
 
Refreshment.01 said:
You said the AI in Doom was dumb as bricks. i asked you what other AI back in those days was a lot better or not dumb. That's all. Then you named Half LIfe wich came like 5 years later and then FEAR which came more than a decade later, so those are not very fair comparisons.

Maybe the PR guy is just using the AI term as a refeence to the foes. Viewing it from that angle it kind of makes sense since Doom was indeed a challenging game. Not due to it's complex or smart behaviour but because the cheer number of AI untis that swarmed the player at a given time. The game throwed at you more enemies than wolfsteing did.

Btw, don't takes this as me be contrarian and im standing what the PR guy said.

Out of curiosity what was the game in your example?

My main point is that maybe there's enough processing in the weak cuarrent console CPU's to have impressive AI if developers put the effort in the first place. That is why i gave the example of Halo, that even by today's shooter standards, it has really engaging AI. And that ran on a 700 MHZ single core Celeron processor. XD
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For its time, dooms AI was pretty top notch.

They had a fov to which they would respond to stimuli, they reacted to sound, and they would even turn on each either.

That being said, they were very predictable, which was a HUGE part of the games design. Again, DOOM had LEGENDARY game design. This... this is cynical corporate crap. I can hear Trump laughing it up with Harry Sloan. What the fuck is up with Zenimax's board of directors? Those people have no business whatsoever anywhere NEAR videogames.... And it shows, its shown from the moment they took over.... From the second people like Todd Howard lost control of bethseda IP's to corporate suits like the Trumps.

Anyways, because the AI of the monsters were so predictable, their placement in each map was a HUUUUUGGGEEE factor in Dooms Level design. They were placed in very specific spots, according to the AI's predictabe behavior, and their movement sets and attack capabilities. They didnt really have to have great AI, they had a master strategest in the design team putting them in the best possible place for challenge and entertainment.
 
Personal preference: I really hope that the viewmodels (weapon models) are tied to the FOV. They look kinda freaking huge with the console FOV of about 60.
 
New interview with Marty Stratton, which included this interesting nugget about the start of the demo:

Marty Stratton said:
But you can go anywhere in that area, you could jump down onto those catwalks, you could go up… so it is very Doom I/Doom II-esque in terms of that non-linearity within areas. Trying to figure out, ‘How do I get to that next area?’ Well, there’s a bunch of different places I can go.
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It looks ok, but some of these devs need to swallow their egos and play FEAR or Killzone 2. The bullets in this game have absolutely no impact on the environment whatsoever. It just pulls you out of the experience instantly

Add some fucking sparks, pom destruction and debris
 
we use this phrase all the time: ‘ Don’t take ourselves too seriously!’ I worked on Doom 3, I love Doom 3, but it took itself pretty seriously. Doom I and Doom II are a bit more outlandish, they’re very comic book, they’re very juvenile almost in their approach. That’s definitely our inspiration for how we’ve gone with this one.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/02/doom-...ove-blowing-up-barrels-5276385/#ixzz3ekveLnJB
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Well, at least they're doing this right. I always felt that Classic DOOM had a good balance of silly and scary, but considering the industry's changed as much as it has, I wouldn't be upset with the game being rather tongue-in-cheek.
 
For those of you referring to that section of the SnapMap trailer that showed fast movement, there's another new interview with Marty Stratton where he confirmed you can adjust the speed of player movement with SnapMap, among other things:

Marty Stratton said:
You can use the system to change the way the HUD displays the score, change the way players move in the world, you can make them slower and faster. It's a very open system.
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So I'm guessing that section of the SnapMap trailer had faster movement than the campaign.
 
Might be wishful thinking, but I'm kinda hoping that they include this in the game as an easter egg.

tumblr_mkcr6ePSYW1r2to8go1_1280.jpg


That's the toy shotgun that they digitized into the game. It's currently sitting in a display case at id Software's office.
 
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