Dota 2 Beta Thread V: Real Talk Strikes Back [Tutorials]

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H

Hylian7

Member
Haly said:
A game that is not "close" doesn't mean it isn't even. This is truer the further down the ladder you go, and I can see that most people complaining about matchmaking are very far down the ladder indeed.

DOTA is a game of compounding advantages. It takes skill and team coordination to overcome a lead, two things that are severely lacking in the lower brackets.

There's only a two things a solo player can do to combat this:

1) Play better. Don't blame the matchmaking, the mode, the feeders, FOTM strats, muting, whatever. The blame game doesn't help you improve. Learning from your mistakes does. Just keep playing until you get out of the worst of the trench.

2) Play carries. Playing support is fine to start out with but if you want to really get your win rate as high as possible as fast as possible then you need to commit to high impact roles. Mid and hard carries are the best for this job.
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I think you forgot "Play in stacks". Someone has to play support...
 
M

Mononoke

Banned
Can someone still explain to me the whole "trench thing". I'm confused. I thought that matchmaking wasn't based on skill level. Therefore, can't you still be in the "trench" even if you are a pro level player? I mean, obviously I get that most players aren't that level. And even if they were, there is always ways to keep improving and understanding this game.

But if you are playing a pub match by yourself, no matter how good you are, it's still a roll of the dice on who you play with. One person can't always save the game.

Or am I misunderstanding what you guys call the "trench". Based on my understanding, the only way out is to just find a really good team of players that are good, or who coordinate well, and start teaming up with a full team when going pub match. No more solo = no more trench (at least for me).
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Hylian7 said:
I think you forgot "Play in stacks". Someone has to play support...
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Specified solo player. Not everyone can find a stack.
Can someone still explain to me the whole "trench thing".
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"Trench" refers to two things.

1) The idea that there is a skill bracket so terrible it's impossible to climb out of because your teammates will always drag you down to their level.

2) A way to refer to the lower skill brackets in DOTA, what show up as the "Normal" games when you do a search for replays.

I thought that matchmaking wasn't based on skill level.
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It is, as far as I know. Everyone has a hidden rating and the rating is used to matchmake.

Therefore, can't you still be in the "trench" even if you are a pro level player?
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There's an idea that each bracket has its own particular brand of "trench". For the most part it refers to the lower 50-70% of DOTA players.

But if you are playing a pub match by yourself, no matter how good you are, it's still a roll of the dice on who you play with. One person can't always save the game.
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Obviously, but then you can just write that one off as "unwinnable" and plan for the next. There's no use griping about it, except as a kind of emotional release.

Or am I misunderstanding what you guys call the "trench". Based on my understanding, the only way out is to just find a really good team of players that are good, or who coordinate well, and start teaming up with a full team when going pub match.
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You can solo-queue out of the "trench" quickly if you're really good. The game is sensitive to obvious smurfing, or so people claim. For the average new player, however, it's a grinding uphill battle, but not impossible.

It's much faster with a team though.
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Catatonic said:
Can someone still explain to me the whole "trench thing". I'm confused. I thought that matchmaking wasn't based on skill level. Therefore, can't you still be in the "trench" even if you are a pro level player? I mean, obviously I get that most players aren't that level. And even if they were, there is always ways to keep improving and understanding this game.

But if you are playing a pub match by yourself, no matter how good you are, it's still a roll of the dice on who you play with. One person can't always save the game.

Or am I misunderstanding what you guys call the "trench". Based on my understanding, the only way out is to just find a really good team of players that are good, or coordinate well, and start teaming up with a full team when going pub match.
Click to expand...

It really depends on the heroes. For instance, let's say in a trench game, that the supports stay in lane and suck up XP, take the carry's farm, etc, and they don't ward or anything. They aren't feeding though. However, your mid is doing extremely well. He's killed his lane opponent 3 times already by 7 minutes, gone and ganked the side lanes a few times successfully, contributed to taking towers, and more. The support I mentioned is bad per se, but that's not as much of a high impact role. In the trench games, most people don't ward, so more than likely, the other team didn't ward either. The mid did good enough that the other team could not stop them, and the support's failure, as well as his screwing over of the carry, turned out to be a non-factor.

On a higher level, this probably would matter a lot more, as the carry being behind on farm is going to but a damper on things (unless the mid happened to be a hard carry).
 
V

Vaporak

Member
Catatonic said:
Can someone still explain to me the whole "trench thing". I'm confused. I thought that matchmaking wasn't based on skill level. Therefore, can't you still be in the "trench" even if you are a pro level player? I mean, obviously I get that most players aren't that level. And even if they were, there is always ways to keep improving and understanding this game.

But if you are playing a pub match by yourself, no matter how good you are, it's still a roll of the dice on who you play with. One person can't always save the game.

Or am I misunderstanding what you guys call the "trench". Based on my understanding, the only way out is to just find a really good team of players that are good, or who coordinate well, and start teaming up with a full team when going pub match. No more solo = no more trench (at least for me).
Click to expand...

What makes you think that?
 
shira

shira

Member
Catatonic said:
Can someone still explain to me the whole "trench thing". I'm confused. I thought that matchmaking wasn't based on skill level. Therefore, can't you still be in the "trench" even if you are a pro level player? I mean, obviously I get that most players aren't that level. And even if they were, there is always ways to keep improving and understanding this game.

But if you are playing a pub match by yourself, no matter how good you are, it's still a roll of the dice on who you play with. One person can't always save the game.

Or am I misunderstanding what you guys call the "trench". Based on my understanding, the only way out is to just find a really good team of players that are good, or who coordinate well, and start teaming up with a full team when going pub match. No more solo = no more trench (at least for me).
Click to expand...
Just when I thought I was out . .
tumblr_lnx7r6XRzI1qccm2fo1_400.gif
 
M

Mononoke

Banned
Vaporak said:
What makes you think that?
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Well, no reason really. My first month I was playing DOTA I asked people in the old thread if matchmaking was determined on your rank level, and they said it didn't mean "piss all". So I always assumed that matchmaking was just random, and not based on your rank.

Guess I was wrong?

I keep seeing a lot about your "skill level". is this something that is just based on your overall stats (not Wins/Losses)? Is it based on XP? Or does XP not mean shit (in the old thread, I was told it's just E-Peen and had no impact on who you are matched with).
 
S

Shorty11857

Member
Catatonic said:
Well, no reason really. My first month I was playing DOTA I asked people in the old thread if matchmaking was determined on your rank level, and they said it didn't mean "piss all". So I always assumed that matchmaking was just random, and not based on your rank.

Guess I was wrong?

I keep seeing a lot about your "skill level". is this something that is just based on your overall stats (not Wins/Losses)? Is it based on XP? Or does XP not mean shit (in the old thread, I was told it's just E-Peen and had no impact on who you are matched with).
Click to expand...

XP means nothing, your skill level is hidden you can get a rough idea of it from filtering your replays into Normal, High, Very High.

Win/Loss ratio doesn't really matter, it should always be near 50% no matter what level you're at. If you're good you'll play against equally good people and therefore win and lose an equal number of matches (In theory)
 
K

KingKong

Member
Really the problem I have is that so many games are stomps one way or another and I constantly come across people who autoattack creeps or just rush in and die over and over, and they all have 20+ wins which is what, around 40 hours of playtime?
 
G

Green Biker Dude

Banned
Catatonic said:
Well, no reason really. My first month I was playing DOTA I asked people in the old thread if matchmaking was determined on your rank level, and they said it didn't mean "piss all". So I always assumed that matchmaking was just random, and not based on your rank.

Guess I was wrong?

I keep seeing a lot about your "skill level". is this something that is just based on your overall stats (not Wins/Losses)? Is it based on XP? Or does XP not mean shit (in the old thread, I was told it's just E-Peen and had no impact on who you are matched with).
Click to expand...

you're confusing rank with skill level

rank is the number you see when you click on someone's profile. it means nothing. it was initially meant to increase % of drops, but valve figured that would make the veterans get too many items too fast, or the % would be too small and basically make no difference, so instead, whenever its level goes up, you get an item to drop

skill level is normal, high or very high. any more information besides that is completely hidden because valve doesn't give a shit if it isn't a hat

also the matchmaking is bad. the fact that there is still no way to get a true solo rating is absurd. solo matchmaking just doesn't cut it when in the end, the rating is based on the entire team. yes, it's a team game but people playing solo need to be rated solo. current system is way too biased for stacking
 
M

Mononoke

Banned
Shorty11857 said:
XP means nothing, your skill level is hidden you can get a rough idea of it from filtering your replays into Normal, High, Very High.

Win/Loss ratio doesn't really matter, it should always be near 50% no matter what level you're at. If you're good you'll play against equally good people and therefore win and lose an equal number of matches (In theory)
Click to expand...

Green Biker Dude said:
you're confusing rank with skill level

rank is the number you see when you click on someone's profile. it means nothing. it was initially meant to increase % of drops, but valve figured that would make the veterans get too many items too fast, or the % would be too small and basically make no difference, so instead, whenever its level goes up, you get an item to drop

skill level is normal, high or very high. any more information besides that is completely hidden because valve doesn't give a shit if it isn't a hat

also the matchmaking is bad. the fact that there is still no way to get a true solo rating is absurd. solo matchmaking just doesn't cut it when in the end, the rating is based on the entire team. yes, it's a team game but people playing solo need to be rated solo. current system is way too biased for stacking
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This is all I needed to know.

Now in the trench actually makes sense. I wasn't aware the two were separate. I just asked the wrong questions initially, so it was my bad. Thanks for clearing this up for me guys. :)
 
H

Hylian7

Member
Okay, I know Haly was just talking about how you should play carries in solo queue if you want to win and such, but jesus christ don't pick like a jackass.

We had an Anti-Mage, and then a guy that randomed Dazzle repicks...to FACELESS FUCKING VOID!

He had no farm, with a broadsword and RoH at 20 minutes, he was on the offlane. I have no idea why he would even consider a BF in that lane unless he was having absolute freefarm against someone solo or something.

When asked why he picked Void, he says "I don't trust pubs to carry." Irony, good irony.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Hylian7 said:
Okay, I know Haly was just talking about how you should play carries in solo queue if you want to win and such, but jesus christ don't pick like a jackass.
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Yes, there is that.
 
H

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
echothreealpha said:
Not necessarily. Teamed up with a mute today in Dota (god that sounds so politically incorrect). We planned most of our ganks by using the ping function and won.

Having muted players might likely lose the game for you because they were probably raging assholes in the first place.
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No I'm pretty sure its cause its much harder to communicate, but sure its totally cause they are an asshole that cant say anything assholish.
 
B

BraXzy

Member
Ugh sick to death of my losing streaks in this game :( I'm only in low level mm and still I get 4 losses for every win, or at least recently it seems that way.

Almost every game someone DC's or feeds a lot early and it is just an uphill struggle from there
 
I

I H8 Memes

Member
BraXzy said:
Ugh sick to death of my losing streaks in this game :( I'm only in low level mm and still I get 4 losses for every win, or at least recently it seems that way.

Almost every game someone DC's or feeds a lot early and it is just an uphill struggle from there
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How long have you been playing? People DC'ing all the time happens a lot when you first start.
 
H

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
The Technomancer said:
So what pet heroes would you guys like to see buffed into the competitive scene? I'd love it if we saw more of Shadow Shaman and Undying honestly.
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Undying was the victim of a really dumb nerf to decay, when the problem were numbers on decay and tombstone weren't working properly. Then the next few patches buffed major counters to him like Gyro, Alchemist, LS, and so on.
 
E

electroshockwave

Member
So is there any way to get into a higher skill level solo? At what point can I play as a carry and not have the support sit in lane auto-attacking creeps and sapping experience? Or a rune ward when I'm mid?
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
At about 80th percentile I reckon. Maybe 90th.
 
S

SneakyStephan

Banned
electroshockwave said:
So is there any way to get into a higher skill level solo? At what point can I play as a carry and not have the support sit in lane auto-attacking creeps and sapping experience? Or a rune ward when I'm mid?
Click to expand...

Don't queue all pick seems to give much much better players.

You see way nicer plays, more teamwork, better builds, better farm and less mindless faffing about when you queue single draft.
 
G

Green Biker Dude

Banned
electroshockwave said:
So is there any way to get into a higher skill level solo? At what point can I play as a carry and not have the support sit in lane auto-attacking creeps and sapping experience? Or a rune ward when I'm mid?
Click to expand...

why don't you play support yourself? if these things are important in your bracket, and your team doesn't have them, once it does, it should be easier to win. it's not as simple as picking support and winning, but i solo queue and play support quite often

if you do decide to play it though, don't be one of those guys who act like the team should be glad just because you picked a support. whenever i see someone mad they randomed a support, i can already tell they're gonna do a shit job playing the role
 
A

Anteo

Member
electroshockwave said:
So is there any way to get into a higher skill level solo? At what point can I play as a carry and not have the support sit in lane auto-attacking creeps and sapping experience? Or a rune ward when I'm mid?
Click to expand...

Play support then. Eventually you will come across with supports that are much much better than you and that's a good sing. Happened to me, I thought I knew a few things about supports, but I was dead wrong.
 
B

BeesEight

Member
Hylian7 said:
Okay, I know Haly was just talking about how you should play carries in solo queue if you want to win and such, but jesus christ don't pick like a jackass.

We had an Anti-Mage, and then a guy that randomed Dazzle repicks...to FACELESS FUCKING VOID!

He had no farm, with a broadsword and RoH at 20 minutes, he was on the offlane. I have no idea why he would even consider a BF in that lane unless he was having absolute freefarm against someone solo or something.

When asked why he picked Void, he says "I don't trust pubs to carry." Irony, good irony.
Click to expand...

Had a single draft game. Two people were hovering over Drow and Skeleton King the other two were over Omni and Jakiro.

I pick Disruptor since my only other options are Clinkz and Spirit Breaker. The other two supports go Medusa and Pugna.

Managed to win that game but my god is it impossible to get people to play supports. I was humoured when the Medusa started complaining when we were losing the early game. It's almost as if supports are best during that time...
 
K

Kreunt

Banned
I'm over 50% winrate, mostly queue by myself, and im shit.
fix mm volvo.
get good at jakiro if you want to win more solo trench games.
 
E

electroshockwave

Member
Green Biker Dude said:
why don't you play support yourself? if these things are important in your bracket, and your team doesn't have them, once it does, it should be easier to win. it's not as simple as picking support and winning, but i solo queue and play support quite often

if you do decide to play it though, don't be one of those guys who act like the team should be glad just because you picked a support. whenever i see someone mad they randomed a support, i can already tell they're gonna do a shit job playing the role
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I do play support quite often but I don't always feel like playing support, or I random or I see that the lineup needs a carry/mid role. The thing is I honestly haven't played with a support as good as me, I don't take last hits, I double pull when the lane is pushed, I buy wards all the way through the match, I upgrade the courier as soon as I can and I go for an urn and/or a mek instead of something greedier like Aghs, I roam. But players in the same skill bracket do few, if any, of this.
 
Head of Vengarl

Head of Vengarl

Banned
Pinko Marx said:
I loathe sniper with a passion. He owns face in almost every game I see him in, yet when I get him I can't do shit.
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I was going to say "I know that feel," but I just looked at my Dotabuff profile and apparently I've only played him once and I went 10-6, so I guess that isn't so bad. I do remember being squishy as fuck and really prone to ganks until I got my Shadow Blade.

shira said:
DotaCinema Top 10 #62

http://youtu.be/i_KAlSl2kZM
Damn Merleezy's still got it.
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Lol, I would hate to be that Pudge in the bonus clip. Talk about getting bullied. Wisp + Glimpse, what a combo.

CarbonatedFalcon said:
Lane is going well, so suddenly Midas.

GREED. I am GREED.
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tumblr_inline_mm3gkfMeoY1rne2kq.jpg


?
 
cheezcake

cheezcake

Member
I had the strangest game the other day, our picks were a rubick (me), enigma, slark, death prophet. I asked the last guy to pick a good offlane solo so he picks up a tinker, works decently I guess.

Game starts, death prophet goes mid (cool), enigma goes jungle (sweet), then tinker calls ancient farming and slark goes offlane solo. Leaving me as the hard support rubick to solo safe lane...

The worst part was when Slark was getting no levels or farm top so I kept trying to convince him to just abandon it and come safe lane, he refused then at the 20 minute marks he starts whining about how he has no items.
 
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