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Dota 2 Beta Thread V: Real Talk Strikes Back [Tutorials]

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Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
Tobi did drop some truth bombs on dem kids.

If anything, the argument should have been to the end of extending the group of qualifiers to a 10/12/16 team qualifier. That's something everyone should be able to agree with. Doing invites like this is reminscent of the NCAA college football scene. Every year someone is bitter because matchups are decided by voters instead of on the field of play with a playoff system that affords the most likely (or even possible) teams a shot at glory. And here instead of having a large enough qualifier to let the teams decide who's most worthy "on the field", we have Valve simply picking teams based on some unknown, opaque process.

It's a game. Let the players decide who's worthy by their play. East and West, 16-team qualifiers each. Everyone with a realistic chance has a chance. Or, a straight-up 32-team qualifier, where the winner and runner-up get in, and let the West prove they're as good as the East without any separation.

Agreed.

However, a combined East and West qualifier might not work that well just because of server issues. The ping for one team will always be meh and will give the other side an advantage. I guess you run into a similar issue with a Russian or European team vs an NA team.
 

mkenyon

Banned
Agreed.

However, a combined East and West qualifier might not work that well just because of server issues. The ping for one team will always be meh and will give the other side an advantage.
This argument rests on the assumption that the International exists to give every team in Dota a shot at winning glory, as if it's some sort of Super Bowl. The fact that it's an invitational event flies in the face of this.

I think your (and DV's gripe) is with what The International is about, rather than their process.
 

Artanisix

Member
This argument rests on the assumption that the International exists to give every team in Dota a shot at winning glory, as if it's some sort of Super Bowl. The fact that it's an invitational event flies in the face of this.

I think your (and DV's gripe) is with what The International is about, rather than their process.

+1
 

Meteorain

Member
So I tried Elder Titan, and I'm not sure how you're supposed to use him. All of his stuff seems super predictable and easy to avoid...

You gotta be able to create the situation in which the shit is undodgeable. This means relying on your teammates to lock down enemies and what not. Casting spirit behind an enemy (his escape route) is good as well.

Also you have to cast shit from fog just to get as much of an edge as possible. Stomp has an OK AoE range, so you can get in quite a few sleeps. Just got to make sure you can hit your ulti before they wake; thus warn teammates.
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
I doubt it. All his spells take 3 years to channel. It wouldn't help much. What you need is some nice set up. RP/Black hole seems perfect for him. But problem is, ET is kinda the same role as those heroes.. but other heroes do it better.

Hmm...I have watched a few players today playing him...

They do Blink>Spirit behind>Eco Stomp>Ulti...
 

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
I think your (and DV's gripe) is with what The International is about, rather than their process.

I don't buy this. Sure, if we were arguing that 14 teams shouldn't have been invited, and the whole tourney should be decided by open qualifiers, I'd see your point.

However, deciding to have qualifiers for the last 2 spots, and then restricting said qualifiers to 8 teams in each region has historically cutoff a few teams that perhaps deserved to be there. I say perhaps because it's all subjective. With all the roster changes and unproven teams the qualifier pool is relatively murky and a qualifier should theoretically find the best team out of this shaky group. With the 8 team restriction, I don't think it does that better than a 10, 12, or 16 man qualifier would.
 

bzm

Member
I don't buy this. Sure, if we were arguing that 14 teams shouldn't have been invited, and the whole tourney should be decided by open qualifiers, I'd see your point.

However, deciding to have qualifiers for the last 2 spots, and then restricting said qualifiers to 8 teams in each region has historically cutoff a few teams that perhaps deserved to be there. I say perhaps because it's all subjective. With all the roster changes and unproven teams the pool is relatively murky and a qualifier should theoretically find the best team out of this unproven and shaky group. With the 8 team restriction, I don't think it does that better than a 10, 12, or 16 man qualifier would.
Bokr i didnt read your post but i so cant take anyone who thinks pl is op seriously.
 
So I tried Elder Titan, and I'm not sure how you're supposed to use him. All of his stuff seems super predictable and easy to avoid...

I haven't tried him in an actual game yet, but when I was playing with bots in the test client, my takeaway was thus:

1.) He's played like an initiator for team fights. Think of him like a Tidehunter without a blink dagger. Instead of blink, you have a Ancestral Spirit with a similar range as blink, who will mimic your Stomp stun, which sets up your Split Earth. The Stomp has a very large aoe itself, so if you position the cast on your target just right, they won't be able to get out of the way unless they have a force staff/BKBs. Even then, a force staff is only going to save one person...and the cooldown on the AS + Stomp is significantly shorter than that of the Force Staff or BKB...and let's be honest, getting an enemy to waste a BKB charge just because of the threat of sleep is a win in and of itself.

2.) Ideally, you'll cast the Ancestral --> Stomp from a safe location when it is unlikely you'll get stunned before the stomp can finish channeling. Say from behind trees or far enough away that you know the enemy can't make up the distance to stop you. Once the stomp goes down...

3.) ...You're readying the ulti. While the ulti is channeling itself, you start walking towards the sleeping units for best positioning (according to the situation at hand) and when the ulti hits, you recall the spirit and use all that extra damage to finish off the targets with your teammates. This seemed to be the bread & butter wombo combo.

4.) Alternately...using the same Ancestral --> Stomp combo, you can use it to pick off one enemy hero at a time, with or without the split earth. Because at level 4 Stomp, the disable puts everyone to sleep for 5 seconds, that gives you 5 seconds for your team to wail away at any one unit while the others can do nothing about it. Depending on how much dps your team is capable of, that can be 2 dead support heroes before anyone else can even wake up to stop it. So for example, you're coming to gank 2 enemy heroes in a given lane. You catch both with the stomp and you and the 2 in the lane now have 4 or 5 seconds to lay as much damage into the squishiest of the 2 as you can. With the right timing and coordination, you cast the split earth about 2 seconds before they wake up ensuring that they take that damage as well. Your teammates will have to be aware of how your ability works and attack the same target to maximize the benefit of the sleep, but if you all are communicating, it won't be a problem at all.

5.) Microing the Ancestral spirit is not absolutely necessary, but certainly is worthwhile if you do it. Every creep or hero that field surrounding him touches will give you a bonus amount of extra damage. It's not a small amount either. At level hero level 5 (when you'll probably have 3 points in E), if you walk him over all the creeps in a wave and the enemy hero, it'll be around 75 extra damage and +10% movement speed, in addition to the 200dmg dealt for touching the enemy hero. It doesn't last long, but it's the equivalent of a DD rune for about 5 seconds. It's not spammable without a soul ring, but that damage adds up.

Notes:

-Sleeping targets won't be awoken by tower damage or creeps, so if you can catch someone diving a tower or something, that can turn into an unexpected kill. Also, Ancestral Spirit will not wake sleeping foes. That will give you a brief opportunity to walk the spirit around to touch as many enemy heroes and creeps as possible so that you can get as much movement speed and damage as possible.

-The hero synergies very poorly with heroes/items that deal Damage Over Time. So you won't want to pick ET if someone picks up Death Prophet, Axe, Veno or Viper...or wants to buy a Radiance, because their dot abilities will wake up the intended sleeping targets. Silencer will have to know that curse will have to wait until your ulti goes off to drop it. I assume the same is true of Warlock's Fatal Bonds, Enigma's circle thing and Alchie's Acid Spray. If they don't understand how to play with ET, they will constantly ruin your Split Earth setup. If you're playing with an Enigma as ET, the two of you will have to decide who goes in first in a given team fight. The optimal scenario is an Enigma initiation when you cast the spirit in the middle of the Enig ult, then time your stomp so that just after the enig ult ends, your sleep comes out, allowing your team to engage however they see fit with the Split Earth at the end.

In fact, it may be awhile before people figure out how to play with ET on their team. Similar to the problem people had playing with a Bane when he first came out. People were too excited to attack the nightmare'd hero to their great detriment. Eventually, people figured it out.

ymmv. Just my observations. Hopefully those more experienced will chime in.
 
If just solo with him, what you're supposed to do with ET is send out the spirit, ideally in a group of enemies ala echo slam, then stomp. Now they're unconscious, so you throw out the ultimate real quick and that should have enough time to fully resolve while the enemies are still asleep. Then you run in with your increased move speed and damage and clean up, using the spirit again if need be.

It's really a lot better with someone to help wombo with you though, as pointed already. I think probably the best that synergize in a lineup with him would be Earthshaker, Enigma, or Dark Seer. Mag fills sort of the same role (also arguably better), so if you had both one wouldn't be in an ideal laning situation.

That's not to mention other things that combo well with the sleep, albeit to smaller effect. Skywrath for one, Windrunner shackle, etc. Anything that benefits from easy setup.
 

shira

Member
It's just as much about the stories and teams as it is what's currently hot though.

I've been around a lot of esports for a really long time, and there seems to be a consistent pool of people that dive in and out of teams, leading to really inconsistent play. The storied teams of CoD 1 arent the randoms that got thrown together and won a tourney or two, it's U5 who stuck together for years.

The International isn't any tournament. It's there to reward and showcase not only talent, but the teams that put in the hours and bring attention to their game. I think keeping it that way maintains a bit of class, making it the special event that it is.

You don't see a soccer club who was thrown together with all-stars win the UEFA.

That is the definition of college sports/trade deadline deals in American sports.

And according to Envy he is putting in the work, whereas other teams are just showing up.
 

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
Bokr i didnt read your post but i so cant take anyone who thinks pl is op seriously.

I don't find PL op. I stated before 6.77c that I thought the combo of PL + KOTL was too broken in the same vein as DS + Naga was broken. Individually PL was fine. After 6.77c tranq/kotl nerfs I always said that PL was fine. Milk likes to play up the myth that I claimed PL was OP though. It makes for a good OP joke I guess.
 

Sibylus

Banned
Empire, Mouz, and QPAD are all sponsored teams, they've got backing and an infrastructure. Kaipi don't seem to have anything, seems like they're replaced everyone since they were founded.
http://play.gosugamers.net/teams/2498-kaipi/player-history (they've gone through 12 players since last fall)

They turned over nearly their entire team this spring alone. Pliediedie is the most stable roster member, but bear in mind that he was also a member of two other teams until last winter (November-December). That's fast-food levels of churn.

I didn't even know it was that bad until just now... Valve are evidently cleverer than the entirety of MAAD put together.
 

mkenyon

Banned
I don't buy this. Sure, if we were arguing that 14 teams shouldn't have been invited, and the whole tourney should be decided by open qualifiers, I'd see your point.

However, deciding to have qualifiers for the last 2 spots, and then restricting said qualifiers to 8 teams in each region has historically cutoff a few teams that perhaps deserved to be there. I say perhaps because it's all subjective. With all the roster changes and unproven teams the qualifier pool is relatively murky and a qualifier should theoretically find the best team out of this shaky group. With the 8 team restriction, I don't think it does that better than a 10, 12, or 16 man qualifier would.
What do you think constitutes as deserving though?

I'm taking a slightly informed guess at this (lots of experience with tournament organization), but excitement/hype, rewarding teams that have continually supported their game by playing and promoting it, and showcasing great talent are all major factors. It's not just about showcasing skill.

*edit*

When HiRez had their big Tribes launch party, they wanted to have two teams be broadcasted on a huge screen at their party competing in the game they just made. They invited zfz and Area 51 to play in it. There were two other teams who were arguably better than either of us, but they didn't get the invite. There's reasons behind that sort of decision.
 

TommyT

Member
A quick note to add about ET:

If you cast spirit, and then recall it, you can still cast stomp as it flies towards you. The spirit will stop a bit after you press the spell to cast stomp and will then begin the channel into actual stomp.
 
http://play.gosugamers.net/teams/2498-kaipi/player-history (they've gone through 12 players since last fall)

They turned over nearly their entire team this spring alone. Pliediedie is the most stable roster member, but bear in mind that he was also a member of two other teams until last winter (November-December). That's fast-food levels of churn.

I didn't even know it was that bad until just now... Valve are evidently cleverer than the entirety of MAAD put together.
Well in that case, it's no surprise. They wanted more stability and perhaps more reliability. That's fair, though I still would have preferred a field big enough for them to try to get in.

A quick note to add about ET:

If you cast spirit, and then recall it, you can still cast stomp as it flies towards you. The spirit will stop a bit after you press the spell to cast stomp and will then begin the channel into actual stomp.
Oh cool.
 

Sibylus

Banned
Yeah, I was initially sympathetic up until the point I came across those stats. There's uh, not exactly any long-term team cohesion there. Not yet, anyway.
 

Anbokr

Bull on a Donut
What do you think constitutes as deserving though?

That's what the qualifiers are there to decide among the well known and recognized teams that have played in tournaments.

The big question is what does Valve think constitutes as deserving teams? Stable teams? Nope most of the teams in the qualifier have had roster changes. "Good," "proven" teams? Nope, some teams haven't played much at all and haven't won anything at all. Sponsor? Maybe. Reputable names? Maybe.
 

mkenyon

Banned
Yeah, I was initially sympathetic up until the point I came across those stats. There's uh, not exactly any long-term team cohesion there. Not yet, anyway.
Exactly.

I can tell you that a team with that sort of turnover is unlikely to ever remain stable. I've never seen a group that went through a ton of players, and then all of a sudden stabilized with a roster.

Game performance is such a marginal aspect of keeping a group together.
 

SamVimes

Member
That's what the qualifiers are there to decide among the well known and recognized teams that have played in tournaments.

The big question is what does Valve think constitutes as deserving teams? Stable teams? Nope most of the teams in the qualifier have had roster changes. "Good," "proven" teams? Nope, some teams haven't played much at all and haven't won anything at all. Sponsor? Maybe. Reputable names? Maybe.

Valve invites 8 teams, what makes you think those aren't the criteria? Can you name me 8 teams with good results and stable roster that aren't already invited to ti3?
 

Anteo

Member
Man I was having a great game and I made a stupid stupid mistake. Trying to flank the enemy while everyone was in the lane, I almost died. Thank god that Magnus was paying attention.

almost313kc4k.gif
 

Anteo

Member
Cheese, yeah. That SK should have timed a stun with my disruption to kill me faster.
I knew the play was risky. But it was riskier than I though. Watching the replay, they had wards around the area, so that's why I got initiated so early. I didn't even had vision of luna when that lucent beam happened.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Every game I've played with Elder Titan, we stomped him so hard.

I dunno if the character sucks, or if people just don't know how to use him (given he's new). But IMO people took to Bristleback and Skywrath Mage much quicker. I remember being challenged by them in my first week of playing against them.
 
Every game I've played with Elder Titan, we stomped him so hard.

I dunno if the character sucks, or if people just don't know how to use him (given he's new). But IMO people took to Bristleback and Skywrath Mage much quicker. I remember being challenged by them in my first week of playing against them.

Unlike Bristle or Sky who can make their own offense and generate their own kills independent of help, ET is like most initiators in the game: they can create big opportunities for teams, but aren't going to secure many kills solo 1v1.

ET in particular needs a team that understand how his disable works so that the sleep isn't wasted by bad decision-making or item purchases by teammates. I played against an ET once and he was damn near the only reason his team was in it. They got ran over by a Slark that went like 26/4/8 in 30 minutes, though. Even still he went like 14/10/12.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Unlike Bristle or Sky who can make their own offense and generate their own kills independent of help, ET is like most initiators in the game: they can create big opportunities for teams, but aren't going to secure many kills solo 1v1.

ET in particular needs a team that understand how his disable works so that the sleep isn't wasted by bad decision-making or item purchases by teammates. I played against an ET once and he was damn near the only reason his team was in it. They got ran over by a Slark that went like 26/4/8 in 30 minutes, though. Even still he went like 14/10/12.

I just read your other posts on this, and you explained it well. That makes sense.
 
ET is pretty fun solo suicide lane with a soul ring. You can actually keep a good pace of harassment and get some last hits with the spirit while staying out of danger.

If you can't land warstomps (and I don't blame you, it is hard without stuns unless the other team is slow as hell) atleast keep you or your spirit next to enemies for that awesome aura. It really shreds agility hero's armor. I've been fooling around with builds and sometimes it might just be better to level up your aura after your w instead of putting more points into his stomp. His ult can also be leveled up later, ranking it up only gives you a minor bonus to the slow.
 

JustinBB7

Member
ET is pretty fun solo suicide lane with a soul ring. You can actually keep a good pace of harassment and get some last hits with the spirit while staying out of danger.

If you can't land warstomps (and I don't blame you, it is hard without stuns unless the other team is slow as hell) atleast keep you or your spirit next to enemies for that awesome aura. It really shreds agility hero's armor. I've been fooling around with builds and sometimes it might just be better to level up your aura after your w instead of putting more points into his stomp. His ult can also be leveled up later, ranking it up only gives you a minor bonus to the slow.

I feel he's a bit weak in general, I think he mostly only got nerfs since his release. A lot of other heroes only got buffs last few patches...
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I bought the new Keeper of the Light Horse, and his new Staff. Only $4! Find it odd the new mount is only $2, but the horse armor is $12.

Didn't realize the armor was interchangeable, I thought it was locked to each horse. I'm guessing Chen's Mounts/Armors are like that too?
 

n0b

Member
That's what the qualifiers are there to decide among the well known and recognized teams that have played in tournaments.

The big question is what does Valve think constitutes as deserving teams? Stable teams? Nope most of the teams in the qualifier have had roster changes. "Good," "proven" teams? Nope, some teams haven't played much at all and haven't won anything at all. Sponsor? Maybe. Reputable names? Maybe.

I think its a combination of things kind of likeTobi was saying in that MAAD. Its a combination of:
1.Stable or familiar pockets within the rosters:
Shocks/Mad/Funzii+Goblak/Silent
Waga/Mini+Sing/Jerax
Fear/Demon/Jeyo/bdiz
Dread/Solo
Scandal/blow
Jackal/wejustzik
Black/FATA/PAS
Mania/Miggel/Ryze

2.Results:
Rox placed high in three tournaments with heavy hitters this year
EG got one tourney but has a history of decent results
iCCup has 3 smaller tournaments from this year and has attended international lans
Empire's core lineup had a huge run earlier this year
QPad won a small tournament and their core players have results in previous teams
AL and Mouz both top 4 at first major lan of the year

3.Reputable names. Most of them are already mentioned in those stable pockets within other teams above, but there are many single additions in these other teams to note:
Bamboe for EG
Synderen for Mouz
LightofHeaven for Empire

Kaipi has no players at all that have played with eachother before this team, no results this year besides an open tournament in which the only other participant to note was iCCup, and no known players besides Envy (who certainly wasn't the only reason NTH was doing well, as noted by the fact that they are even stronger now) and CWM who unfortunately does not get a lot of respect in the Dota scene.

Sure, you can argue that the qualifiers could have been bigger; I would have loved to see NextKZ in there after they had a decent showing at the most recent prelims and remembering their sweep of last international qualifier until the last match. I don't think they deserve an invite over anyone there though. To say that Kaipi deserves an invite just because they "worked hard" is bullshit, and don't even pretend like anybody complaining about the qualifier is doing it for any other reason than KP not getting in. Artyk fans aren't crying about the injustice, nobody is wondering why 3DMaxx isn't there, nobody is wondering why TheRererereretry didn't get invited on PGG's reputation.

The only drama is because there is one excessively whiny player on a team that took games off of big teams every once and a while in unimportant tournaments, and now they are adding the most hyped player in NA who has no bigger achievement than doing decently in IXDL and not losing mid in pubs.
 
I think its a combination of things kind of likeTobi was saying in that MAAD. Its a combination of:
1.Stable or familiar pockets within the rosters:
Shocks/Mad/Funzii+Goblak/Silent
Waga/Mini+Sing/Jerax
Fear/Demon/Jeyo/bdiz
Dread/Solo
Scandal/blow
Jackal/wejustzik
Black/FATA/PAS
Mania/Miggel/Ryze

2.Results:
Rox placed high in three tournaments with heavy hitters this year
EG got one tourney but has a history of decent results
iCCup has 3 smaller tournaments from this year and has attended international lans
Empire's core lineup had a huge run earlier this year
QPad won a small tournament and their core players have results in previous teams
AL and Mouz both top 4 at first major lan of the year

3.Reputable names. Most of them are already mentioned in those stable pockets within other teams above, but there are many single additions in these other teams to note:
Bamboe for EG
Synderen for Mouz
LightofHeaven for Empire

Kaipi has no players at all that have played with eachother before this team, no results this year besides an open tournament in which the only other participant to note was iCCup, and no known players besides Envy (who certainly wasn't the only reason NTH was doing well, as noted by the fact that they are even stronger now) and CWM who unfortunately does not get a lot of respect in the Dota scene.

Sure, you can argue that the qualifiers could have been bigger; I would have loved to see NextKZ in there after they had a decent showing at the most recent prelims and remembering their sweep of last international qualifier until the last match. I don't think they deserve an invite over anyone there though. To say that Kaipi deserves an invite just because they "worked hard" is bullshit, and don't even pretend like anybody complaining about the qualifier is doing it for any other reason than KP not getting in. Artyk fans aren't crying about the injustice, nobody is wondering why 3DMaxx isn't there, nobody is wondering why TheRererereretry didn't get invited on PGG's reputation.

The only drama is because there is one excessively whiny player on a team that took games off of big teams every once and a while in unimportant tournaments, and now they are adding the most hyped player in NA who has no bigger achievement than doing decently in IXDL and not losing mid in pubs.

Very concise, though you failed to list KP's results.

IF you accept the premise that it's better to select teams than let them play it out at a qualifier, and IF you accept the premise that there should only be 8 teams competing in the Western Qualifier... the above closes the book on the matter.

However, there are those of us who are of the mind to see teams that are doing well compete, rather than have to have this sort of analysis to decide which teams are or are not worthy to compete for a spot at TI. For us, we don't really give a shit about whether their names are well known or how new their roster is. Let them have the opportunity to make the grade. If they fail, they fail. Not letting them take the test...a team that is considered one of the better performers over the last couple of months, and ranked in the top 20 on Gosu...sorry, no list of what they have or haven't done will matter. Let them play it out. If they're not good enough, we'd know soon enough.
 
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